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pinky29
57 Posts
I had maxed out 3/3 cyclones, after a huge advantage in my favor, vs Zerg (1/2) at 110 and fungal and lings will kill the entire army. I thought it was me at first until it happened a few times. If you want to throw away a "won" game vs Zerg or Protoss...make a Cyclone. Also, what happened to the balance community saying this would help with PvT mech? Frankly, this is an obliteration of a usable unit. I don't see it's place in starcraft in its current state. Edit: M1/low GM for reference | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19199 Posts
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pinky29
57 Posts
On April 09 2024 20:39 BisuDagger wrote: As someone who watches more then plays, I don't think there have been enough pro games to make a judgment yet. This is probably why you haven't heard more from the community here. The unit still seems to be used frequently and is still a decent unit, but maybe you are right in the scenario which you use it might not be viable anymore. Thanks for the reply. If it exists with its current capabilities today, I see it as an "enhanced" reaper at best. Only <5 minute usability in game. Maybe a lesser Adept without the scouting. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
Terran anti-air is stupid: Man with Gun: kills everything including capital ships. Spider Mine built from Factory: I take care of single target, but also splash, mostly splash though. Wheely-boy with turret: same as the Marine, but I have the stats of a more powerful Protoss unit. Thorminator: I take care of mass air, and also single target air, so everything. But the one option sucks. Paper plane: I look like a Valkyrie, but am single target with phenominal range, same as Thor. Freedom from above: I came to take care of the mass air problem, am I too late? Cattlecruiser: I have bad anti-air so that I have a weakness, unlike the Man with Gun, despite being a tier 3 unit. It's similar to how Zerg kept getting anti air options, because it kept being a problem: Infested Terran (better anti air) Anti Air cloud Corruptor was buffed and given the ability to pee, so that is a more attractive option, and for some reason needed another reason than the BL, to justify its existence after killing off the air. Parasitic Bomb: added to the Viper, makes any other option obsolete, because of how broken it is. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19199 Posts
On April 09 2024 20:47 pinky29 wrote: Thanks for the reply. If it exists with its current capabilities today, I see it as an "enhanced" reaper at best. Only <5 minute usability in game. Maybe a lesser Adept without the scouting. 100%. It seems to be an early game to right before mid game unit. It's not beefy enough to be part of a late game mech army in the same way an adept isn't part of the core Protoss army. I usually can think of a good change for units in the game, but this is such a fragile issue where it will become either OP or more useless. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On April 09 2024 20:02 pinky29 wrote: Also, what happened to the balance community saying this would help with PvT mech? Frankly, this is an obliteration of a usable unit. I don't see it's place in starcraft in its current state. That was extremely stupid reasoning to buff them in the first place. Cyclones get used more in TvT and TvZ than they do in TvP. You can't possibly justify buffing a unit because it's weak in just one match up for one specific purpose when it's used in all 3 in a generalist capacity. They did the same thing the last time they buffed the Void Ray. They said they wanted to buff its speed so it could catch Banshees? lol. Because I can't think of any reason why that buff would have consequences OTHER than catching Banshees. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24258 Posts
On April 09 2024 21:06 BisuDagger wrote: 100%. It seems to be an early game to right before mid game unit. It's not beefy enough to be part of a late game mech army in the same way an adept isn't part of the core Protoss army. I usually can think of a good change for units in the game, but this is such a fragile issue where it will become either OP or more useless. Which IMO was fine, some units have a niche role and attempts to bring them out that create problems. The cyclone seems to have that issue 100%, it vacillates between having a relatively small niche role, then they buff it and it’s too good and folks mass it. Then it gets nerfed again, returning to its niche role | ||
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SamirDuran
Philippines894 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On April 09 2024 23:18 WombaT wrote: Which IMO was fine, some units have a niche role and attempts to bring them out that create problems. The cyclone seems to have that issue 100%, it vacillates between having a relatively small niche role, then they buff it and it’s too good and folks mass it. Then it gets nerfed again, returning to its niche role The main problem IMO is that if they want to make it an actually good generalist unit, they need to keep it locked to a Tech Lab. They can't make it both good as a generalist unit AND reactorable. That is just begging players to spam them, it also has the knock on effect of making Battle Mech too easy and forgiving to do because you can reactor out both kinds of units. The only reactorable generalist unit that Terran has is the Marine. It should stay that way. Everything else that comes out of a reactored structure should be specialized to one degree or another. The Viking, Liberator and Hellion all work because they are transforming units that have 2 specialized modes each, so even though they can be used in multiple capacities they can only ever do one role at a time. | ||
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Comedy
453 Posts
Not every unit has to be massable, its fine if it has a reaper-like role. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19199 Posts
On April 09 2024 23:18 WombaT wrote: Which IMO was fine, some units have a niche role and attempts to bring them out that create problems. The cyclone seems to have that issue 100%, it vacillates between having a relatively small niche role, then they buff it and it’s too good and folks mass it. Then it gets nerfed again, returning to its niche role I think true late game upgrades that add health/shields/armor to the sentry, adept, and cyclone to make them hardy enough to contribute to battles without dying instantly would be interesting though. Cyclones could have a late game ability where they can lock on their on units to enhances their armor. Killing a unit that the cyclone is locked on to results in the cyclone dying itself. Lock-on assist can be cancelled at any time. Imagine locking on a dropship as it dives on a zerg base to buff its armor while it heals. Templar Archives could offer a psi-entific improvements upgrade that adds a shield bonus based on a units PSI. That way templar and sentries can still be vulnerable to emp, but get a little bit more staying power. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19199 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On April 09 2024 23:43 BisuDagger wrote: I think true late game upgrades that add health/shields/armor to the sentry, adept, and cyclone to make them hardy enough to contribute to battles without dying instantly would be interesting though. Cyclones could have a late game ability where they can lock on their on units to enhances their armor. Killing a unit that the cyclone is locked on to results in the cyclone dying itself. Lock-on assist can be cancelled at any time. Imagine locking on a dropship as it dives on a zerg base to buff its armor while it heals. Templar Archives could offer a psi-entific improvements upgrade that adds a shield bonus based on a units PSI. That way templar and sentries can still be vulnerable to emp, but get a little bit more staying power. That would make Archons absolutely terrifying. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19199 Posts
On April 09 2024 23:50 Vindicare605 wrote: That would make Archons absolutely terrifying. To be clear, based on psi energy conserved. So psi casting units, not archons. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On April 09 2024 23:55 BisuDagger wrote: To be clear, based on psi energy conserved. So psi casting units, not archons. Oh i thought you meant Psi as in the Protoss version of "supply." Meaning Archons would get double what Sentries would. | ||
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Cygnus
United States844 Posts
I would be fine reverting back to tech lab only for cyclones as a concession. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic611 Posts
On April 10 2024 01:17 Cygnus wrote: I play a fair amount of mech and they do seem do be in an odd state, you can bulk a large amount of hellion/cyclone early for mobility and map control but as you get closer to 200/200 if the majority of your composition remains that way they get pretty easily erased by higher tech units of other races. Maybe some sort of +2 armor or extra HP upgrade for late game could help them scale, something that is already in line with Terran (i.e Neosteel Armor/Combat Shield). I would be fine reverting back to tech lab only for cyclones as a concession. it doesnt need to scalate well, this is the main issue SC2 has, people want everysingle unit to be usefull across all game long on every situation if we look at broodwar for example and u keep massing Vultures u will die... mass vulture early is a thing but if you continue to do so u will eventully lose the game. people need to get out of their head all units need to be usefull in every single match up. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19199 Posts
On April 10 2024 01:28 BonitiilloO wrote: it doesnt need to scalate well, this is the main issue SC2 has, people want everysingle unit to be usefull across all game long on every situation if we look at broodwar for example and u keep massing Vultures u will die... mass vulture early is a thing but if you continue to do so u will eventully lose the game. people need to get out of their head all units need to be usefull in every single match up. Vultures are an incredible unit at every point of the game. Hardly a time where having a vulture is negative. Almost any unit in BW has a purpose in at least one matchup at any point in the game. (Minus scouts lmao) | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On April 10 2024 01:46 BisuDagger wrote: Vultures are an incredible unit at every point of the game. Hardly a time where having a vulture is negative. Almost any unit in BW has a purpose in at least one matchup at any point in the game. (Minus scouts lmao) Scouts have a purpose it's just really niche. You can punish a Terran that doesn't have AA really badly with them. They're also really good against enemy capital ships, not that Protoss needs them to be in that role lol. Been seeing Scouts show up more frequently against Terran than I used to, they're still not common at all but they're not totally absent like they used to be. | ||
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Cygnus
United States844 Posts
On April 10 2024 01:28 BonitiilloO wrote: it doesnt need to scalate well, this is the main issue SC2 has, people want everysingle unit to be usefull across all game long on every situation if we look at broodwar for example and u keep massing Vultures u will die... mass vulture early is a thing but if you continue to do so u will eventully lose the game. people need to get out of their head all units need to be usefull in every single match up. I think one issue is you are somewhat on a tightrope since mech is slow to resupply and if you have a bulk of your units committed to a part of the game i.e cyclones early for map control or defense once the transition to mid/late game happens they shouldn't take a nosedive in utility, I'm not suggesting we turn SC2 into monobattles but there might be a better way to even out the awkward spot of balancing your unit comp at that stage since they will be taking up crucial supply. Yes there are Thor and Tank but they lack mobility and typically need a critical mass in many situations. | ||
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