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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 07 2024 03:59 Wintex wrote:
After LOTV launched, foreigners were lucky that the Korean scene died to the evaporation of investment, match fixing killing more opportunities, and the player pool dying after KeSPA folded and Proleague was no more. Draconic region locking helped speed up the death of that region, while the NA EU playground where bullies were banned and investment continued survived.
Basically anything Balnazza said in the first post.
Apologists will say other things. That's all cope.
Region locking worked fine for its intended purpose, the foreign scene has clearly got much stronger with that structure in place.
I’m a fan of the game, yeah it’s cool to see foreigners be able to harness the potential in those regions, equally it’s shit to see StarCraft Mecca be left to wither on the vine.
It is beyond ridiculous to pick the most egregious example that the Gamers 8 show matches had a bigger, or at least equivalent prize pool to a GSL season now. How are Koreans meant to maintain a scene on that kind money?
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On March 07 2024 05:26 Nasigil wrote:
and what we see in the last 6-8 years are decently accurate reflection of true skills levels of each player.
Isn't what we see in the last 6-8 years more like quickly dying Korean scene vs foreign scene at its peak?
If you don't agree with quickly dying Korean scene, name a few good Korean players who didn't play professionally before 2016.
It's all moot anyway. Players don't choose who they play against, esports regulators do.
And there's no true fairness here, nobody ever has truly equal conditions - this is just not possible.
Players just do what they can with what they have and we watch them play vs each other for entertainment.
And SC2 is an asymmetric RTS where conditions are by definition not equal.
Races can be dominant for some time, and some players can peak at the wrong time - and nothing can be done about it.
I think we can probably talk +/- objectively about best terran / zerg / protoss players of this or that era, or maybe best T/Z/P players of all times (already not easy, how do you compare competitive level of different eras?), but that's probably it.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 07 2024 05:43 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2024 05:26 Nasigil wrote:
and what we see in the last 6-8 years are decently accurate reflection of true skills levels of each player.
Isn't what we see in the last 6-8 years more like quickly dying Korean scene vs foreign scene at its peak? If you don't agree with quickly dying Korean scene, name a few good Korean players who didn't play professionally before 2016. It's all moot anyway. Players don't choose who they play against, esports regulators do. And there's no true fairness here, nobody ever has truly equal conditions - this is just not possible. Players just do what they can with what they have and we watch them play vs each other for entertainment. And SC2 is an asymmetric RTS where conditions are by definition not equal. Races can be dominant for some time, and some players can peak at the wrong time - and nothing can be done about it. I think we can probably talk +/- objectively about best terran / zerg / protoss players of this or that era, or maybe best T/Z/P players of all times (already not easy, how do you compare competitive level of different eras?), but that's probably it.
It is definitely both, I don’t see how one can reasonably argue it isn’t. It’s equally daft to me to deny either that the current foreign crop is clearly much stronger than that of the past or that the Korean scene isn’t as strong as it used to be.
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Serral and reynor were not competing full time yet
Once they started full time, the rest is history
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On March 07 2024 07:54 FFXthebest wrote:
Serral and reynor were not competing full time yet
Once they started full time, the rest is history
Lul. "Serral and Reynor" != "foreigners"
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On March 07 2024 06:22 WombaT wrote:
It is definitely both, I don’t see how one can reasonably argue it isn’t. It’s equally daft to me to deny either that the current foreign crop is clearly much stronger than that of the past or that the Korean scene isn’t as strong as it used to be. You probably misunderstood me, mate, specifically my use of "vs" - probably I wasn't clear and should rephrase myself.
My answer was to a claim that only in the last 6-8 years we could have a "honest" comparison of Koreans and foreigners, that only in those last 6-8 years we could see "an accurate reflection of true skills levels of each player".
And what I meant was that this is not quite true - if we compare only those last 6 years we'll be comparing the best time for foreigners vs the worst time for Koreans with no new blood at all.
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On March 07 2024 05:26 Nasigil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2024 03:59 Wintex wrote:
After LOTV launched, foreigners were lucky that the Korean scene died to the evaporation of investment, match fixing killing more opportunities, and the player pool dying after KeSPA folded and Proleague was no more. Draconic region locking helped speed up the death of that region, while the NA EU playground where bullies were banned and investment continued survived.
Basically anything Balnazza said in the first post.
Apologists will say other things. That's all cope. Someone seems so desperately trying to devalue all the foreign achievement since 2016, while forgetting that Maru and Rogue also got main bulk of their achievement after 2016. If anything, the destruction of foreign scene actually put Koreans and rest of the world on an even playing field, and what we see in the last 6-8 years are decently accurate reflection of true skills levels of each player.
Where does he mention Maru or Rogue?
Feels like you've revealed the fact you're aruging with a theoretical position, rather than the post in front of you
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 07 2024 08:38 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2024 06:22 WombaT wrote:
It is definitely both, I don’t see how one can reasonably argue it isn’t. It’s equally daft to me to deny either that the current foreign crop is clearly much stronger than that of the past or that the Korean scene isn’t as strong as it used to be. You probably misunderstood me, mate, specifically my use of "vs" - probably I wasn't clear and should rephrase myself. My answer was to a claim that only in the last 6-8 years we could have a "honest" comparison of Koreans and foreigners, that only in those last 6-8 years we could see "an accurate reflection of true skills levels of each player". And what I meant was that this is not quite true - if we compare only those last 6 years we'll be comparing the best time for foreigners vs the worst time for Koreans with no new blood at all.
Oh yeah I was agreeing with you, my comment was more generally directed at some of the more myopic in the thread, apologies for not making that clear!
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On March 07 2024 05:43 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2024 05:26 Nasigil wrote:
and what we see in the last 6-8 years are decently accurate reflection of true skills levels of each player.
Isn't what we see in the last 6-8 years more like quickly dying Korean scene vs foreign scene at its peak? If you don't agree with quickly dying Korean scene, name a few good Korean players who didn't play professionally before 2016. It's all moot anyway. Players don't choose who they play against, esports regulators do. And there's no true fairness here, nobody ever has truly equal conditions - this is just not possible. Players just do what they can with what they have and we watch them play vs each other for entertainment. And SC2 is an asymmetric RTS where conditions are by definition not equal. Races can be dominant for some time, and some players can peak at the wrong time - and nothing can be done about it. I think we can probably talk +/- objectively about best terran / zerg / protoss players of this or that era, or maybe best T/Z/P players of all times (already not easy, how do you compare competitive level of different eras?), but that's probably it.
you can kidn of argue that pre-2016, koreans were playing at an advantage due to infrastructure and league advantage. But peak competitiveness since 2016 has fallen a lot between progamers and that's why some people are doubting post-2016 results even if some of top koreans stayed at top- there's no longer that huge pool of player and competitiveness with staff supporting that anymore
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On March 05 2024 22:48 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 22:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On March 05 2024 21:39 Die4Ever wrote:
Life's matchfixing, Proleague closing down, and region lock were a triple whammy that really messed up the Korean scene I do not 100% blame Life. I do not 100% blame the NBA referees who were manipulating NBA games. They get paid very little and can be given huge amounts of money to manipulate the outcome. Match fixing happens in plenty of competitive settings and the business keeps on rolling... https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/79955/the-fix-by-declan-hill/9780771041396Match fixing ain't that big of a deal. If the competition, marketing and sense of spectacle at live events is amazing... no one cares. Don King murdered two people and his #1 money maker in his live events was a convicted rapist. That didn't stop any one going to his events. Life's match fixing doesn't matter. It does and it did matter, might not seem like much to us westerners but it was a massive deal in Korea, and many people like Waxangel, Mizenhauer that have contacts with korean players have said time and again that the scandal had a big effect on the korean scene. Not saying that it is the ONLY reason for the decline, most people would agree that a decline was already well on its way, but saying that scandal didn't matter is just as wrong as thinking the korean scene was in a healthy spot before it.
pretty ironic that i bring up Mike Tyson and a couple of days after I post it a 58 year old Mike Tyson signs on for a boxing match with massive media coverage.
MLB has had numerous steroid scandals and every player is an over sized giant. Pete Rose fixed games. IMO, the MLB brand of baseball is no longer a real sport. MLB is so entertaining ... no one cares.
Regarding Tyson: he isn't just a convicted rapist...
Here is Tyson proclaiming his devotion to Islam in one sentence while claiming he wants to eat Lennox Lewis' children two sentences later while his friends surrounding him smile and laugh.
Mike Tyson's entertainment value far exceeds his misdeeds. I'll be watching July 20th. I hope Tyson puts Jake Paul to sleep.
The game just ain't that entertaining. So, we can come up with 5000 rationalizations why people are not watching. However, if the game were as entertaining as a Mike Tyson fight Life's misdeeds would not matter.
Life is a saint compared to Mike Tyson and the average MLB baseball player with the HGH levels of a 14 year old at the peak of puberty. Tyson fights and MLB games are so entertaining that the crimes of its participants do not matter.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
MLB has also lost ground against the NFL and basketball in the past few decades from its high water mark as ‘America’s game’. Cycling is still massively popular, but would it be even more popular if people weren’t put off by questioning which cyclists are legit and which are doping? Probably.
Boxing always has that machismo nonsense anyway. Mike Tyson wasn’t called the ‘baddest man on the planet’ for no reason, him being an arsehole doesn’t really change the core appeal there for many.
I mean you’re fundamentally comparing apples and oranges here, Life’s misdeeds were directly related to competitive integrity, whereas Tyson’s were in his personal life.
Life isn’t some entertaining heel that folks love to hate playing a character, he was directly involved in cheating, involved others in it and caused a lot of damage to his profession.
SC2 isn’t some beloved past time played by millions with a century + of tradition, it’s a relatively niche activity with a small pro circuit. The former can take hits when it comes to scandal and sponsor cold feet, the latter really can’t.
Football is probably even bigger relatively speaking in the UK than any of the big US sports, it’s the game in town. There’s over a hundred professional clubs, tons of semi-pro ones and thousands of grass roots clubs all over the place. There’s almost nothing conceivable that could happen in the Premier League that could tank the actual sport overall.
End of the day you’re arguing against what various sponsors that pulled out, and various involved orgs said happened when Kespa as we knew it ended involvement, which was that Life and the match fixing scandal was a big contributory factor.
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Also, I'd like to relate it directly to Korea. In the peak times of Brood War everyone knew there were 12 guys living in a room and practicing 87 hours a week staring into a computer monitor. The entertainment value was so great... no one cared.
CBC Documentary on Stacraft1
Check out those Avilo style bunkbeds LOL.
Tasteless stated he didn't want that kind of life so he opted for being a commentator rather than a player.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
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On March 09 2024 04:03 WombaT wrote:
How is that relevant?
see my previous posts and read them.
TLDR
if the entertainment value is great. no one cares about anything else.
the game aint that entertaining... so now Life's morals and 5000 rationalizations get made.
so no one cared about the inhumane working conditions during brood war peak times because the entertainment value was high. get it now?
regarding your talk about combat sports being a "special case". Travis Browne was insta cancelled when some random chick posted pics of her bruised face. Why? Browne can't draw money. The same thing happens to Tyson and whether its Don King or whoever is promoting the event the statement would be 'innocent until proven guilty." The Tyson fight is still on!
Tyson is more entertaining than Browne so he can get away with almost anything. One of my customers owns a chain of crappy dive Sports Bars in New York state. Let me tell you.. he is pumped for July 20.
Kobe Bryant has a statue and is celebrated as some kind of basketball messiah. He definitely cheated on his wife many times and prolly raped a young woman. However, he is extremely entertaining... so no one cares. When Kobe came to Canada once a year it was like the King of England was coming to visit.
Cardi B drugged and robbed men. She is entertaining ... so no one cares.
Peak Brood War was incredibly entertaining so no one said anything when the working conditions were unethical and inhumane.
So this is not just restricted to any one sport. This is a comment about entertainment in general. And, in this particular case the prime factor is : the game just ain't that entertaining. If it were Life would be getting the Kobe Bryant or Mike Tyson or Cardi B treatment. As it is, he is getting the Travis Browne treatment.
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On March 09 2024 04:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Peak Brood War was incredibly entertaining so no one said anything when the working conditions were unethical and inhumane.
So how do you explain saviOr?
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On March 09 2024 04:31 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2024 04:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On March 09 2024 04:03 WombaT wrote:
How is that relevant? Peak Brood War was incredibly entertaining so no one said anything when the working conditions were unethical and inhumane. So how do you explain saviOr?
did the Brood War scene "collapse"?
to be clear. my statement is that the prime factor in SC2's decline was its lack of entertainment value.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 09 2024 04:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote:see my previous posts and read them. TLDR if the entertainment value is great. no one cares about anything else. the game aint that entertaining... so now Life's morals and 5000 rationalizations get made. so no one cared about the inhumane working conditions during brood war peak times because the entertainment value was high. get it now? regarding your talk about combat sports being a "special case". Travis Browne was insta cancelled when some random chick posted pics of her bruised face. Why? Browne can't draw money. The same thing happens to Tyson and whether its Don King or whoever is promoting the event the statement would be 'innocent until proven guilty." The Tyson fight is still on! Tyson is more entertaining than Browne so he can get away with almost anything. One of my customers owns a chain of crappy dive Sports Bars in New York state. Let me tell you.. he is pumped for July 20. Kobe Bryant has a statue and is celebrated as some kind of basketball messiah. He definitely cheated on his wife many times and prolly raped a young woman. However, he is extremely entertaining... so no one cares. When Kobe came to Canada once a year it was like the King of England was coming to visit. Cardi B drugged and robbed men. She is entertaining ... so no one cares. Peak Brood War was incredibly entertaining so no one said anything when the working conditions were unethical and inhumane. So this is not just restricted to any one sport. This is a comment about entertainment in general. And, in this particular case the prime factor is : the game just ain't that entertaining. If it were Life would be getting the Kobe Bryant or Mike Tyson or Cardi B treatment. As it is, he is getting the Travis Browne treatment.
Do you actually read what other people post? Like actually process it and factor it in?
I already said in my previous post that Tyson’s misbehaviour was outside of the boxing realm, thus it doesn’t really damage the appeal of him getting into a boxing ring.
Life and his co-conspirators committed actions that directly damaged perceptions of the competitive integrity of the game itself, and thus sponsors started getting cold feet.
And it’s not like these are immutable things either. There are plenty of entertainers who have remained just as entertaining and talented throughout, but have departed centre stage via scandal because that has brought some kind of backlash.
What’s I don’t know, Kevin Spacey doing these days eh? To pick one example.
I’m sure you know better than Kespa, their showpieces sponsors and their associated teams and that the match fixing scandal wasn’t an issue, and the game just wasn’t entertainment enough. Despite still being a continuing concern in 2024
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On March 09 2024 05:13 WombaT wrote:
Do you actually read what other people post? Like actually process it and factor it in?
He does, in fact, not. Well, somewhat. Instead of riding the "but it didn't hurt the NBA!!1"-train he switched to other sports or tries to change the subject (talking about Life cheating, suddenly it is about the working conditions in teamhouses...).
I'm done with trying to get him to see the plot, but I wish you good fortunate if you want to continue to try 
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Canada8989 Posts
On March 08 2024 11:08 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2024 05:43 ZeroByte13 wrote:On March 07 2024 05:26 Nasigil wrote:
and what we see in the last 6-8 years are decently accurate reflection of true skills levels of each player.
Isn't what we see in the last 6-8 years more like quickly dying Korean scene vs foreign scene at its peak? If you don't agree with quickly dying Korean scene, name a few good Korean players who didn't play professionally before 2016. It's all moot anyway. Players don't choose who they play against, esports regulators do. And there's no true fairness here, nobody ever has truly equal conditions - this is just not possible. Players just do what they can with what they have and we watch them play vs each other for entertainment. And SC2 is an asymmetric RTS where conditions are by definition not equal. Races can be dominant for some time, and some players can peak at the wrong time - and nothing can be done about it. I think we can probably talk +/- objectively about best terran / zerg / protoss players of this or that era, or maybe best T/Z/P players of all times (already not easy, how do you compare competitive level of different eras?), but that's probably it. you can kidn of argue that pre-2016, koreans were playing at an advantage due to infrastructure and league advantage. But peak competitiveness since 2016 has fallen a lot between progamers and that's why some people are doubting post-2016 results even if some of top koreans stayed at top- there's no longer that huge pool of player and competitiveness with staff supporting that anymore
Honestly, I find this reasoning a bit infuriating. You can't ''doubt'' most of the results of a game, it makes no sense. Post-2016 SC2, is the majority of professional SC2. Kespa has been in SC2 for less than a third of the lifespan of the game. Hell, there has been around as much Starcraft played between now and the region lock than there was between Iloveoov's first title and the region lock.
There's no parallel universe where Kespa was a thriving organization for a decade and a half.
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EPT
