EPTWhat did foreigners lack vs. Koreans pre-2016?
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StuDToSs
116 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1247 Posts
In the rest of the world however teams usually just tried to copy what they knew from Warcraft 3 - and in terms of professionalism, that wasn't much. I don't think any of the great WC3 clans (4K, MYM, SK...) ever had something like "coaches". Sure, they had managers, but actual coaches? No, not really. And they definetly didn't have teamhouses. The next big thing that held foreigners back was that a good chunk of koreans, who profited from their teamhouse-experiences but couldn't quite make it in the tough field that was GSL, went out of their way and played in Europe and America instead, basically blocking these WCS events. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the likes of TaeJa, Polt, Bomber etc. for their decision and they clearly were better than the europeans and americans at the time. But with these juggernauts in place, it basically killed any chance for young players to get into the scene and make a living from SC2, since these "foreign-koreans" farmed big chunks of the prizepool, with only very few foreigners being able to stand up to them. How big the teamhouses effected the gap is btw especially easy to see with these koreans: The "foreign-koreans" usually would get slaughtered at Katowice or BlizzCon by the "GSL-koreans". So what closed the gap? Of course the shutdown of Proleague, basically taking away not only the financial stability but also the training regiment that kept koreans ahead of the world. And while that advantage wasn't undone immediately, the next big step was the implementation of region-lock, forcing most "foreign-korean" out of Europe and America, opening up prizemoney for foreigners and making it more attractive to go fulltime. The combination of these two changes balanced the scale, opening up the field for most foreigners to close the gap, with Serral just taking it to the extreme | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
Maybe the BW experience was the big hurdle foreigner coulnd't jump over. | ||
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Chris_Havoc
United States600 Posts
It isn't a coincedence that when Proleague ended in 2016 and the teamhouse system effectively ended with it, Koreans were no longer focusing solely on StarCraft 2 and the quality of their play diminished. This allowed players like Serral, Neeb, Clem, Reynor, and others to rise up and go toe-to-toe with even the best of the Koreans. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
There was a time where say 45 of the world’s best 50 were all Korean, and making that jump from being a promising amateur to immediately being in that bracket was too much. You’re not making any money whatsoever, so why be a progamer? Whereas I feel there’s a failure to have supported the Korean scene, the WCS scene absolutely gave that middle ground where talent could actually earn and stay a fulltime progamer and develop to the degree they could after a year or two compete with the best. I mean in hypothetical land does Serral push for progaming as a career if 20+ Koreans are the barrier at that time? | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1846 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
When it was still around while all other teams were long dead, they produced by far the best players like Maru, Rogue, sos, Trap | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7021 Posts
On March 05 2024 15:37 CicadaSC wrote: They lacked that Koreans were actually practicing Big time! If I recall correctly, all Koreans said something like practice 12 hours a day while foreigners were more like 4-6 hours. Part of that is probably that as a foreigner you couldn't really be sure to make a living and had to keep other options open. Almost all foreigners were only semi-pro | ||
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Durnuu
13322 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33503 Posts
On March 05 2024 12:13 Balnazza wrote: It mostly comes down to the infrastructure. Even before the Kespa-invasion, korean teams offered teamhouses, probably somewhat using the experiences from BroodWar. When Proleague switched over, the korean teams offered the best teamhouses you could get in SC2 or even in Esports at the time. In the rest of the world however teams usually just tried to copy what they knew from Warcraft 3 - and in terms of professionalism, that wasn't much. I don't think any of the great WC3 clans (4K, MYM, SK...) ever had something like "coaches". Sure, they had managers, but actual coaches? No, not really. And they definetly didn't have teamhouses. The next big thing that held foreigners back was that a good chunk of koreans, who profited from their teamhouse-experiences but couldn't quite make it in the tough field that was GSL, went out of their way and played in Europe and America instead, basically blocking these WCS events. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the likes of TaeJa, Polt, Bomber etc. for their decision and they clearly were better than the europeans and americans at the time. But with these juggernauts in place, it basically killed any chance for young players to get into the scene and make a living from SC2, since these "foreign-koreans" farmed big chunks of the prizepool, with only very few foreigners being able to stand up to them. How big the teamhouses effected the gap is btw especially easy to see with these koreans: The "foreign-koreans" usually would get slaughtered at Katowice or BlizzCon by the "GSL-koreans". So what closed the gap? Of course the shutdown of Proleague, basically taking away not only the financial stability but also the training regiment that kept koreans ahead of the world. And while that advantage wasn't undone immediately, the next big step was the implementation of region-lock, forcing most "foreign-korean" out of Europe and America, opening up prizemoney for foreigners and making it more attractive to go fulltime. The combination of these two changes balanced the scale, opening up the field for most foreigners to close the gap, with Serral just taking it to the extreme I have to disagree on your view of region-lock. To me, it's very much a "we don't really know" issue, similar to the match-fixing and its affect on the industry. First, you have to consider the fact that all of the best foreigners of the post-KeSPA era like Neeb, Serral, Clem, and Reynor were active during the peak of Korean domination, and it didn't drive any of them to give up or seek out other games. Then, you have to think about other video games like League of Legends, which has a long-standing region lock that has utterly failed to achieve parity. It's hilarious to me how discussions around "why does North American LoL suck" read almost exactly the same as they did in SC2, blaming laziness, ping, culture, etc. without any definitive conclusion. My personal view is that region-lock at an organizer level is entirely pointless, because online ladders have made progaming an almost purely meritocratic endeavor—especially in 1v1 games where there are no team/group politics to navigate. A player who is talented/skilled enough, and is in a position to pursue their pro-gaming full-time, WILL succeed (barring geopolitical/visa problems). Branching off of that, my pet theory is that most of the reasons behind geographical disparity are rooted in the broader culture and infrastructure of the region. Is progaming a lucrative job? Is progaming a culturally accepted job? What is the purchasing power of $200 for 1st place in a weekly cup in your country? | ||
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dysenterymd
1250 Posts
On March 05 2024 17:59 Harris1st wrote: Big time! If I recall correctly, all Koreans said something like practice 12 hours a day while foreigners were more like 4-6 hours. Part of that is probably that as a foreigner you couldn't really be sure to make a living and had to keep other options open. Almost all foreigners were only semi-pro Practice is some of it, but opportunities to play offline consistently/coaching are probably big elements too. There seem to be diminishing returns to practice, and burnout is a real thing even in the short run (for example, Reynor grinding hard for a month before Katowice and bombing.) All else being equal 12 hours is better than 6 hours if you can avoid burnout, but getting to play offline on a regular schedule and having a coaching staff must have made a huge difference as well. | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17721 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17147 Posts
On March 05 2024 21:39 Die4Ever wrote: Life's matchfixing, Proleague closing down, and region lock were a triple whammy that really messed up the Korean scene I do not 100% blame Life. I do not 100% blame the NBA referees who were manipulating NBA games. They get paid very little and can be given huge amounts of money to manipulate the outcome. Match fixing happens in plenty of competitive settings and the business keeps on rolling... https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/79955/the-fix-by-declan-hill/9780771041396 Match fixing ain't that big of a deal. If the competition, marketing and sense of spectacle at live events is amazing... no one cares. Don King murdered two people and his #1 money maker in his live events was a convicted rapist. That didn't stop any one going to his events. Life's match fixing doesn't matter. | ||
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Durnuu
13322 Posts
On March 05 2024 22:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I do not 100% blame Life. I do not 100% blame the NBA referees who were manipulating NBA games. They get paid very little and can be given huge amounts of money to manipulate the outcome. Match fixing happens in plenty of competitive settings and the business keeps on rolling... https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/79955/the-fix-by-declan-hill/9780771041396 Match fixing ain't that big of a deal. If the competition, marketing and sense of spectacle at live events is amazing... no one cares. Don King murdered two people and his #1 money maker in his live events was a convicted rapist. That didn't stop any one going to his events. Life's match fixing doesn't matter. It does and it did matter, might not seem like much to us westerners but it was a massive deal in Korea, and many people like Waxangel, Mizenhauer that have contacts with korean players have said time and again that the scandal had a big effect on the korean scene. Not saying that it is the ONLY reason for the decline, most people would agree that a decline was already well on its way, but saying that scandal didn't matter is just as wrong as thinking the korean scene was in a healthy spot before it. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1247 Posts
On March 05 2024 22:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I do not 100% blame Life. I do not 100% blame the NBA referees who were manipulating NBA games. They get paid very little and can be given huge amounts of money to manipulate the outcome. Match fixing happens in plenty of competitive settings and the business keeps on rolling... https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/79955/the-fix-by-declan-hill/9780771041396 Match fixing ain't that big of a deal. If the competition, marketing and sense of spectacle at live events is amazing... no one cares. Don King murdered two people and his #1 money maker in his live events was a convicted rapist. That didn't stop any one going to his events. Life's match fixing doesn't matter. You really are a broken record with that NBA thing, aren't ya? When will it go through your head that every scandal, every occassion of these type of things is different and the only thing important is how it affects its sport and especially the public opinion/sponsors about it. If no one cared about doping, Lance Armstrongs doping wouldn't have mattered either. But people (and therefore sponsors) did care and were upset and stopped paying attention to professional cycling, therefore damaging the scene big time. So please, for the love of the Overmind, stop that NBA bullshit comparison. It does not apply here. Life caused real damage in an industry that is much smaller than the NBA, therefore having far less room to compensate. On March 05 2024 18:37 Waxangel wrote: I have to disagree on your view of region-lock. To me, it's very much a "we don't really know" issue, similar to the match-fixing and its affect on the industry. First, you have to consider the fact that all of the best foreigners of the post-KeSPA era like Neeb, Serral, Clem, and Reynor were active during the peak of Korean domination, and it didn't drive any of them to give up or seek out other games. Then, you have to think about other video games like League of Legends, which has a long-standing region lock that has utterly failed to achieve parity. It's hilarious to me how discussions around "why does North American LoL suck" read almost exactly the same as they did in SC2, blaming laziness, ping, culture, etc. without any definitive conclusion. My personal view is that region-lock at an organizer level is entirely pointless, because online ladders have made progaming an almost purely meritocratic endeavor—especially in 1v1 games where there are no team/group politics to navigate. A player who is talented/skilled enough, and is in a position to pursue their pro-gaming full-time, WILL succeed (barring geopolitical/visa problems). Branching off of that, my pet theory is that most of the reasons behind geographical disparity are rooted in the broader culture and infrastructure of the region. Is progaming a lucrative job? Is progaming a culturally accepted job? What is the purchasing power of $200 for 1st place in a weekly cup in your country? They were active, but none of them was a fulltime pro. It just comes down more to financial stability and how long you can afford to be fulltime without winning big money. That is the "security" that region-lock offers. I would however agree with your pet theory, which definetly plays a big role. Grubby just recently (like...this week?) talked about an interesting aspect of german progamers he noticed during his career in WC3, SC2 and HotS: He said that most german progamers never went fulltime, they always had a plan B, were still going to college, finishing school etc. And that is a very "german thing" to do, the value of your academic prowess, always having a plan B. But of course it hinders you in your gaming career, you obviously lose time and energy you could invest in your gameplay instead. And if you are not someone like Serral, I promise you there can be quite a bit of doubt, since progaming isn't exactly "culturally accepted" here...or atleast it wasn't, I think with LoL it got a bit better. If you compare that to South Korea, where even the "unloved" Warcraft 3 pros got a lot of attention from fans...of course it feels more natural to become a pro in Korea than in Germany. | ||
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ZeroByte13
780 Posts
No wonder they wanted to have a plan B. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
Case in point, the recent Capcom Cup in Street Fighter 6 had 7 East Asians in their top 8. Capcom did a similar thing to Blizzard. They went around guaranteeing a certain amount of spots to people around the world. Japan only got 2 spots out of 48 (a third made it through other means). And what happened? Japan's neighbors cleaned up. The non-Japanese East Asians were mostly unknowns to the rest of the world, but not to the Japanese players. They are familiar with each other's scenes because they end up playing each other regularly. And it lifts all of them up. Progaming is just not that lucrative yet. Korea is in a sweet spot where they are rich enough where progaming can be a thing but not rich enough that it's way better to do something else. For reference, I looked at what American companies in my industry are paying in terms of salary for my position for our worldwide operations. The maximum difference is 15% higher in the biggest US cities versus the smallest ones. The big US cities also pay 15% higher compared to Germany, 60% higher than UK/Italy, 70% higher than Spain/Japan and almost 90% higher than Korea. Our international operations are in big cities as well. | ||
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Locutos
Brazil271 Posts
On March 05 2024 12:13 Balnazza wrote: It mostly comes down to the infrastructure. Even before the Kespa-invasion, korean teams offered teamhouses, probably somewhat using the experiences from BroodWar. When Proleague switched over, the korean teams offered the best teamhouses you could get in SC2 or even in Esports at the time. In the rest of the world however teams usually just tried to copy what they knew from Warcraft 3 - and in terms of professionalism, that wasn't much. I don't think any of the great WC3 clans (4K, MYM, SK...) ever had something like "coaches". Sure, they had managers, but actual coaches? No, not really. And they definetly didn't have teamhouses. The next big thing that held foreigners back was that a good chunk of koreans, who profited from their teamhouse-experiences but couldn't quite make it in the tough field that was GSL, went out of their way and played in Europe and America instead, basically blocking these WCS events. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the likes of TaeJa, Polt, Bomber etc. for their decision and they clearly were better than the europeans and americans at the time. But with these juggernauts in place, it basically killed any chance for young players to get into the scene and make a living from SC2, since these "foreign-koreans" farmed big chunks of the prizepool, with only very few foreigners being able to stand up to them. How big the teamhouses effected the gap is btw especially easy to see with these koreans: The "foreign-koreans" usually would get slaughtered at Katowice or BlizzCon by the "GSL-koreans". So what closed the gap? Of course the shutdown of Proleague, basically taking away not only the financial stability but also the training regiment that kept koreans ahead of the world. And while that advantage wasn't undone immediately, the next big step was the implementation of region-lock, forcing most "foreign-korean" out of Europe and America, opening up prizemoney for foreigners and making it more attractive to go fulltime. The combination of these two changes balanced the scale, opening up the field for most foreigners to close the gap, with Serral just taking it to the extreme Time also happened. Koreans already had a RTS pro circuit and all the trainning that comes with it. But all of it before SCII was lan based. When SCII came with its online setting, it opened the way for foreigners all over the world to analyze how real pros played. But that highest skill ceiling takes time to achieve. You couldnt expect the grown up back in 2010 to match the ones who grew up playing in Korean lans and teams. You had to wait for the Serrals, Reynors and Clem, who back in 2010 were little, to grew up watching and studying the best - which before 2010 was waay harder. Finally, one has to remember that Korea is just one country, while "foreigners" is everyone else. If everyone else starts sutduying the best, eventually they will catch up. Simple like that. | ||
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Comedy
466 Posts
On March 06 2024 01:35 andrewlt wrote: They didn't get better. Korea got worse. Waxangel is right. Cultural factors and infrastructure are the biggest factors. The amount of people playing, the quality of your practice partners, the strength of your competition all play a part. Case in point, the recent Capcom Cup in Street Fighter 6 had 7 East Asians in their top 8. Capcom did a similar thing to Blizzard. They went around guaranteeing a certain amount of spots to people around the world. Japan only got 2 spots out of 48 (a third made it through other means). And what happened? Japan's neighbors cleaned up. The non-Japanese East Asians were mostly unknowns to the rest of the world, but not to the Japanese players. They are familiar with each other's scenes because they end up playing each other regularly. And it lifts all of them up. Progaming is just not that lucrative yet. Korea is in a sweet spot where they are rich enough where progaming can be a thing but not rich enough that it's way better to do something else. For reference, I looked at what American companies in my industry are paying in terms of salary for my position for our worldwide operations. The maximum difference is 15% higher in the biggest US cities versus the smallest ones. The big US cities also pay 15% higher compared to Germany, 60% higher than UK/Italy, 70% higher than Spain/Japan and almost 90% higher than Korea. Our international operations are in big cities as well. Europeans did get better. You can't compare the skill level of Serral, reynor clem to Snute, Scarlett, Lilbow in 2015 for example. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16109 Posts
On March 05 2024 18:37 Waxangel wrote: I have to disagree on your view of region-lock. To me, it's very much a "we don't really know" issue, similar to the match-fixing and its affect on the industry. First, you have to consider the fact that all of the best foreigners of the post-KeSPA era like Neeb, Serral, Clem, and Reynor were active during the peak of Korean domination, and it didn't drive any of them to give up or seek out other games. Then, you have to think about other video games like League of Legends, which has a long-standing region lock that has utterly failed to achieve parity. It's hilarious to me how discussions around "why does North American LoL suck" read almost exactly the same as they did in SC2, blaming laziness, ping, culture, etc. without any definitive conclusion. My personal view is that region-lock at an organizer level is entirely pointless, because online ladders have made progaming an almost purely meritocratic endeavor—especially in 1v1 games where there are no team/group politics to navigate. A player who is talented/skilled enough, and is in a position to pursue their pro-gaming full-time, WILL succeed (barring geopolitical/visa problems). Branching off of that, my pet theory is that most of the reasons behind geographical disparity are rooted in the broader culture and infrastructure of the region. Is progaming a lucrative job? Is progaming a culturally accepted job? What is the purchasing power of $200 for 1st place in a weekly cup in your country? That last point is key. The money dried up in SC2. There's not anywhere near enough of it to go around in Korea, so new (or even existing) Korean talent are picking other games to go pro in if they want a career in esports. The foreign scene only managed to catch up with the Korean scene when the Korean scene itself started stagnating. The Korean scene stagnated because the money dried up and all of the Korean sponsors left. Jin Air was the last BIG Korean sponsor still in the SC2 scene and it's not a surprise that they had BY FAR the best SC2 team in the world for years after the KeSPA teams disbanded and no one else could even touch them. Once Jin Air disbanded that's when the flood gates REALLY opened up for foreigners to start competing. It's all about the money. It always is with most questions about how modern society works. The second the Korean money dried up, the second the Korean scene started dying, that's when the foreign scene started catching up. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On March 06 2024 05:07 Vindicare605 wrote: That last point is key. The money dried up in SC2. There's not anywhere near enough of it to go around in Korea, so new (or even existing) Korean talent are picking other games to go pro in if they want a career in esports. The foreign scene only managed to catch up with the Korean scene when the Korean scene itself started stagnating. The Korean scene stagnated because the money dried up and all of the Korean sponsors left. Jin Air was the last BIG Korean sponsor still in the SC2 scene and it's not a surprise that they had BY FAR the best SC2 team in the world for years after the KeSPA teams disbanded and no one else could even touch them. Once Jin Air disbanded that's when the flood gates REALLY opened up for foreigners to start competing. It's all about the money. It always is with most questions about how modern society works. The second the Korean money dried up, the second the Korean scene started dying, that's when the foreign scene started catching up. Little bit from column A little bit from column B. I think denying the combination of funds and structure as being a factor for the Koreans dropping off from their customary dominance is rather silly, absolutely. Equally at the same time the foreign scene arrived at a situation where one could make a living as a competitor by ‘merely’ being the best European, or American or non-Korean, or one of a handful of them. If we envisage two hypothetical alternate timelines, the first where Kespa stay longer and those big blue chip sponsors continue to fund teams, and the region-locked WCS remained as it was in our timeline. You probably, almost certainly see a more Korean dominated scene with more depth, but players of a Serral or Reynor calibre still hit a level where they’re in contention in any tournament they enter. In the second, where we just remove region lock from WCS, I think the overall quality in the scene would have dropped even further. You probably see enough B tier Koreans playing outside of Korea who at the time would still be too good for foreigners to compete with and perhaps stifles the emergence of new talent there, or existing programers departing for other careers sooner. And, over time and with military/retirement churn, plus a fragmented scene of top Korean based players, and not quite top ones playing abroad that are too good for new blood to break through in those respective areas just would lead to a similar decline. Except in both Korea and foreign land, rather than primarily the former. It feels very much that in SC2’s history we’ve had the constituent parts for a close to ideal, somewhat integrated scene with regional competition so players can develop. But rarely all at the same time alas | ||
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Mutaller
United States1051 Posts
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Locutos
Brazil271 Posts
On March 06 2024 06:30 Mutaller wrote: Yeah I have to agree with OP, it has to do with teams and how they provide quality practice. The pro-league format incentivizes teams, and for those teams to practice with each other. How do you explain Serral? The undisputed SCII GOAT, who has been beating the Maru's, Rogues, Darks, Stats, Traps etc from 2018 like no one ever has.... Never practiced in a team system. People tend to forget that 2010-2015 was still dominated by players who had been playing RTS professionally in the most developed. From 1998 - 2010, who trained RTS in Korea, had the best practice. It was a lan based practice system. Team houses thrived in a lan system. After 2010, in SCII, the practice changes. People start to study the game from anywhere in the world. You can download a Mvp game and analyze it in detail. It takes a while to mature, but the youngsters who began playing it in 2010, in any part of the world, by 2017-2018 matured. Serrals and Reynors rose up. The way out the curve ones rose. | ||
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LostUsername100
96 Posts
Had the Korea infrastructure not collapsed he'd still beat all of the Koreans anyways just slightly lower tournament conversion rate, but the margins between serral and the rest are just too great, there was no Korean talent pre-2018 that dominated like he did. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5218 Posts
The secret is, the foreigners didn't get better. Korea lost it's pro teams and pro houses that allowed players to develop into monsters. Once it lost those, the play field began to level. The only foreigner who was good enough to reliably compete versus the pro houses was Stephano. That's it. He ran through a gauntlet of Code S champions to unexpectedly win IGN ProLeague Season 3 and then ESWC 2011. And when I say unexpected, it was completely shocking. To win one, maybe it was lucky, but both? He went back and forth with Polt, a Code S champion in ASUS ROG Winter 2012 and the LoneStar Clash, winning the latter. He walked into Proleague and instantly had success, defeating herO and Bbyong. No one foreigner that I can remember did that or even walked away with a winning record in Proleague. Serral is amazing. But his accomplishments happen after Korea's peak. Stephano's beat them when no one thought a foreigner had a chance. | ||
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Maksim2010
40 Posts
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On March 06 2024 09:31 BronzeKnee wrote: Sit down for a minute, let me tell you the secret of what really happened... The secret is, the foreigners didn't get better. Korea lost it's pro teams and pro houses that allowed players to develop into monsters. Once it lost those, the play field began to level. The only foreigner who was good enough to reliably compete versus the pro houses was Stephano. That's it. He ran through a gauntlet of Code S champions to unexpectedly win IGN ProLeague Season 3 and then ESWC 2011. And when I say unexpected, it was completely shocking. To win one, maybe it was lucky, but both? He went back and forth with Polt, a Code S champion in ASUS ROG Winter 2012 and the LoneStar Clash, winning the latter. He walked into Proleague and instantly had success, defeating herO and Bbyong. No one foreigner that I can remember did that or even walked away with a winning record in Proleague. Serral is amazing. But his accomplishments happen after Korea's peak. Stephano's beat them when no one thought a foreigner had a chance. And then Stephano proceeded to get completely overshadowed by Snute, Scarlett, Elazer, and Neeb. "Korea's peak" happened when players were still learning to master their craft. The secret is, there are no secrets. When the teamhouses disbanded, the Koreans were still winning almost everything, same as when teamhouses were still around. One player changed that. Neeb gave him a small hand. The difference is, Stephano merely went toe-to-toe with top Koreans, and at no point was he remotely close to being considered contender for "the best" title. Serral was considered a strong contender after late 2018, but hindsight says he was the best, and not just a contender. Didn't have a teamhouse. Didn't practice 12 hours a day. All the mythos surrounding the "teamhouses and brutal practice schedules = peak SC" narratives are just that. I do concede that teamhouses would benefit a lot of players, but some of the ones at the farthest right end of the bell curve are different. They require fewer, but finer ingredients to cook. There are line cooks, and there are chefs. Grinding yourself to the bones practicing 14 hrs a day won't necessarily improve your game, even if you're able to manage it. Let the brain have some quality time to stew, instead of flash frying every thing, every time. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On March 06 2024 09:31 BronzeKnee wrote: [/s]Sit down for a minute, let me tell you the secret of what really happened... [b]The secret is, the foreigners didn't get better. Korea lost it's pro teams and pro houses that allowed players to develop into monsters. Once it lost those, the play field began to level. The only foreigner who was good enough to reliably compete versus the pro houses was Stephano. That's it. He ran through a gauntlet of Code S champions to unexpectedly win IGN ProLeague Season 3 and then ESWC 2011. And when I say unexpected, it was completely shocking. To win one, maybe it was lucky, but both? He went back and forth with Polt, a Code S champion in ASUS ROG Winter 2012 and the LoneStar Clash, winning the latter. He walked into Proleague and instantly had success, defeating herO and Bbyong. No one foreigner that I can remember did that or even walked away with a winning record in Proleague. Serral is amazing. But his accomplishments happen after Korea's peak. Stephano's beat them when no one thought a foreigner had a chance. Respectfully disagree, Serral is just on another planet although Stephano was a great talent. Reynor is ridiculous, and it took about a decade but Clem finally gave the foreign scene that player who was mechanically as good as his Korean equivalents. Going back to my previous pontifications, structure is huge. In Stephano’s era you had to beat pretty stacked fields of top Korean players of the day to make any decent money off prize pools. You saw a lot of foreign pros stream a lot more than they do now, or appear on various shows as the entertainment aspect of the industry was leaned on a lot heavier as they couldn’t outdo Koreans in the competitive side of the ledger. So foreign players were kind of left weighing up trying to close a pretty large gap, a process that may take years while they’re earning pretty bad money, or hedge their bets. Stephano earned his money, went back to school and his talent still saw him play at a pretty high level the odd time. Or Nerchio who was studying at times, or a Lucifron. Or the rather large amount of decent foreign pros who really were only focused competitive players for a few years before moving into something adjacent in eSports or into entirely different spheres. A Grubby who certainly had some talent but went more into being a content creator, or TLO doing his thing with Shopify (iirc). Someone like Scarlett who kind of straddles eras has at times been a pure progamer and at times dabbled in other things. For much of Legacy you can have a decent career, and decent earnings especially in your teens/early 20s by ‘merely’ being one of the best in Europe, or NA. Gives you a platform to build and be comfortable, focus on being an actual competitive progamer and get as good as you can be. This takes a lot of time, and you need the structure around you, and the risk-reward to be right. Just scanning Liquipedia dates and I’d estimate that even monster talents like Reynor and Clem took longer to transition from being gifted amateurs to being top, top pros thru the steps of being nascent progamers, solid Euro pros etc than the entire top-level career of the previous generation, names like Idra or indeed Stephano. Unfortunately as the foreign scene got that structure, and I feel is clearly just way stronger these days, Korea started to lose it and Korean pros, never mind gifted amateurs are having the same dilemmas foreign pros used to have. Namely there’s just not the structure to make it worth their while giving up the literal years they could be pursuing other careers to try and break through an effective glass ceiling of incredibly talented veteran StarCraft players. | ||
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Nasigil
137 Posts
One could argue that the destruction of Korean pro scene actually in some way leveled the playing field between Koreans and foreign players, making the competition actually more fair. Now you can see how everyone really fairs when they are all on their own. Also I agree with the idea that Serral is the singular outlier. Reynor and Clem are great players, but at best you could only say they are just on the same league as the best of Koreans, but not better, and their h2h record against Koreans confirms it (Reynor 56%, Clem 53% against Koreans since they raised to scene), Meanwhile Serral has an insane 68% match record against Koreans since 2018. Some people also mentioned that a lot of EU players don't go full time on gaming, therefore having much less practice time than Koreans. For what I know Serral only finished school decided to go full time pro in 2017, and it took him one year to become best in the world. | ||
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Nasigil
137 Posts
Stephano and Reynor would beat top Korean players regularly, even winning some tournaments where Koreans participates, but they are never in any point considered the clear "best player in the world" or "dominant", they are one of the best, that's it. While Serral is clearly towering over all his peers, winning more than anyone and have positive and often one-sided H2H records against everyone in the same era. Match record against Koreans during their best years: Stephano 2011 - 2012: 57% Reynor 2018 - today: 56% Serral 2018 - today: 68% Would Stephano has better records if he rose to scene after 2018? Entirely possible, but I don't want to compare hypothesis with reality. It's worth noting that Stephano's best year was 2012, when Zerg's BL/Infestor was absolutely broken, and he had 60% against Korean Terran and Protoss, but only 43% against Korean Zergs. You could argue that Zerg has been OP during Serral's prime years too, but here's his number: 71% against Korean non-Zerg, 62% against Korean Zerg. Not comparable, I would say. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16109 Posts
On March 06 2024 05:53 WombaT wrote: Little bit from column A little bit from column B. I think denying the combination of funds and structure as being a factor for the Koreans dropping off from their customary dominance is rather silly, absolutely. Equally at the same time the foreign scene arrived at a situation where one could make a living as a competitor by ‘merely’ being the best European, or American or non-Korean, or one of a handful of them. If we envisage two hypothetical alternate timelines, the first where Kespa stay longer and those big blue chip sponsors continue to fund teams, and the region-locked WCS remained as it was in our timeline. You probably, almost certainly see a more Korean dominated scene with more depth, but players of a Serral or Reynor calibre still hit a level where they’re in contention in any tournament they enter. In the second, where we just remove region lock from WCS, I think the overall quality in the scene would have dropped even further. You probably see enough B tier Koreans playing outside of Korea who at the time would still be too good for foreigners to compete with and perhaps stifles the emergence of new talent there, or existing programers departing for other careers sooner. And, over time and with military/retirement churn, plus a fragmented scene of top Korean based players, and not quite top ones playing abroad that are too good for new blood to break through in those respective areas just would lead to a similar decline. Except in both Korea and foreign land, rather than primarily the former. It feels very much that in SC2’s history we’ve had the constituent parts for a close to ideal, somewhat integrated scene with regional competition so players can develop. But rarely all at the same time alas Oh I'm not denying that structure had a lot to do with it. Funds and Structure go hand in hand. You can't have the kind of gaming structure that Korea is known for without the steady and consistent income that gamers in team houses were used to under sponsorship contracts. When those went away and everyone basically became an independent commodity, now you have Koreans and Foreigners basically playing on an even field in terms of structure and income only, there's MUCH less money in Korea both in streaming and sponsorships available for Starcraft 2 players. But this isn't a chicken or the egg question. Structure NEEDS money to survive. The money is what dried up first. The structure dying was a symptom of the underlying problem. The actual result as far as the OP's question is concerned is the same. What did foreigners lack until 2016? They don't have anything now they didn't have back then, it's just before 2016 the Korean scene was still thriving and not in a state of stagnation or decline. | ||
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Locutos
Brazil271 Posts
What did foreigners lack until 2016? They don't have anything now they didn't have back then, it's just before 2016 the Korean scene was still thriving and not in a state of stagnation or decline. That's false. Foreigners now have people with years of Starcraft professional level practice and study on their backs, which they didnt in the earlys 2010's. Koreans had. Growing up in Broodwar pro scene certainly gave them an edge. Team houses helped building a bulk of top players. But the champions of today are just the prodigys who grew up playing the game from an early age. Koreans had their 10+ year of top level RTS practice. And the lan based system guaranteed that they kept that edge up until 2010. Then that knowledge started dripping to the world. Prodigy kids in US, Italy, Finland and France started studying how the very best played (which was very hard before that). When those kids grew up (2016-2017)... bye bye korean edge at the very top. You take the prodigys out, Korean RTS culture still has its impact though. | ||
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Comedy
466 Posts
You can't compare this to foreigners who came from different games like BW, WC3 etc and then swapped and had to adopt to a new game being already over 20 years old. That's why the current cream of the crop foreigners are a level above the foreigners from before. Korea produced Starcraft talent from a ultra competitive BW-Kespa environment with 10+ team houses that recruited people like TY when they were 12 years old. So even though these talents were produced for a different game, they were so good at fundamental RTS skills that it translated and carried them to a level well beyond any foreigner could reach for a long period of time, untill this new generation of foreigners popped up that had also developed their sc2 skills in their early teens or pre-teens and were able to reach new heights that the old foreigners couldn't reach. Sadly since SC2 was never popular in Korea, a generation of new talent from Korea eluded us. | ||
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sertas
Sweden889 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16109 Posts
Foreigners now have people with years of Starcraft professional level practice and study on their backs, which they didnt in the earlys 2010's. Koreans had. Growing up in Broodwar pro scene certainly gave them an edge. Hear that boys, TeamLiquid might as well have never existed before 2010 because there was NOBODY in the foreign scene with Brood War experience helping people practice to learn SC2 back in the day. Nope, there's NEVER been a foreign Brood War scene before SC2 came out. It's all a lie. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4228 Posts
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Wintex
Norway16838 Posts
Basically anything Balnazza said in the first post. Apologists will say other things. That's all cope. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1467 Posts
once those are gone, players age and aging-decline comes inevitably while newer, fresher players can reach higher levels than declined players. Infra that gave koreans advantage in first place is gone, and there isn't much financial incentive to get into sc2 for koreans | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On March 07 2024 00:18 Vindicare605 wrote: Here that boys, TeamLiquid might as well have never existed before 2010 because there was NOBODY in the foreign scene with Brood War experience helping people practice to learn SC2 back in the day. Nope, there's NEVER been a foreign Brood War scene before SC2 came out. It's all a lie. Sure there was but it’s not really quite the same as having a production line of pro gamers and practice standards already set up. And as he said a lot of that was kept very in-house in the BW Kespa era and people outside that were feeding off scraps. Something the pros have consistently said is the post-Kespa era is still vibrant because the opening up and knowledge sharing of people streaming and collaborating more, to at least somewhat offset the lack of structured practice environments. @Comedy also makes a good point, an obvious one I definitely agree with but hadn’t really considered before. That age profile is pretty huge. A decent chunk of Western pros were already in their 20s initially and moved from other games. The economics of being a progamer become more pressing and it’s outright harder to learn new skills as you get older. From personal experience trying other instruments, itself made smooth by me already having musical experience, both with time limitations and just being older and one’s brain less malleable, I make less progress with my excursions into piano now than I made learning guitar which I started at about 10/11. Someone like Grubby is clearly a very talented RTS legend but is he going to be able to develop those top, top levels of mechanical speed in a different game? Whereas someone like Ofc not every Korean pro was some young whippersnapper, it is possible for an old dog to learn new tricks, but it’s a more doable process if you’re already versed with years playing at a level beyond most mortals in a game as mechanically difficult as BW, and have a continuation of that practice structure around you. | ||
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Nasigil
137 Posts
On March 07 2024 03:59 Wintex wrote: After LOTV launched, foreigners were lucky that the Korean scene died to the evaporation of investment, match fixing killing more opportunities, and the player pool dying after KeSPA folded and Proleague was no more. Draconic region locking helped speed up the death of that region, while the NA EU playground where bullies were banned and investment continued survived. Basically anything Balnazza said in the first post. Apologists will say other things. That's all cope. Someone seems so desperately trying to devalue all the foreign achievement since 2016, while forgetting that Maru and Rogue also got main bulk of their achievement after 2016. If anything, the destruction of foreign scene actually put Koreans and rest of the world on an even playing field, and what we see in the last 6-8 years are decently accurate reflection of true skills levels of each player. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On March 07 2024 03:59 Wintex wrote: After LOTV launched, foreigners were lucky that the Korean scene died to the evaporation of investment, match fixing killing more opportunities, and the player pool dying after KeSPA folded and Proleague was no more. Draconic region locking helped speed up the death of that region, while the NA EU playground where bullies were banned and investment continued survived. Basically anything Balnazza said in the first post. Apologists will say other things. That's all cope. Region locking worked fine for its intended purpose, the foreign scene has clearly got much stronger with that structure in place. I’m a fan of the game, yeah it’s cool to see foreigners be able to harness the potential in those regions, equally it’s shit to see StarCraft Mecca be left to wither on the vine. It is beyond ridiculous to pick the most egregious example that the Gamers 8 show matches had a bigger, or at least equivalent prize pool to a GSL season now. How are Koreans meant to maintain a scene on that kind money? | ||
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ZeroByte13
780 Posts
On March 07 2024 05:26 Nasigil wrote: Isn't what we see in the last 6-8 years more like quickly dying Korean scene vs foreign scene at its peak?and what we see in the last 6-8 years are decently accurate reflection of true skills levels of each player. If you don't agree with quickly dying Korean scene, name a few good Korean players who didn't play professionally before 2016. It's all moot anyway. Players don't choose who they play against, esports regulators do. And there's no true fairness here, nobody ever has truly equal conditions - this is just not possible. Players just do what they can with what they have and we watch them play vs each other for entertainment. And SC2 is an asymmetric RTS where conditions are by definition not equal. Races can be dominant for some time, and some players can peak at the wrong time - and nothing can be done about it. I think we can probably talk +/- objectively about best terran / zerg / protoss players of this or that era, or maybe best T/Z/P players of all times (already not easy, how do you compare competitive level of different eras?), but that's probably it. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On March 07 2024 05:43 ZeroByte13 wrote: Isn't what we see in the last 6-8 years more like quickly dying Korean scene vs foreign scene at its peak? If you don't agree with quickly dying Korean scene, name a few good Korean players who didn't play professionally before 2016. It's all moot anyway. Players don't choose who they play against, esports regulators do. And there's no true fairness here, nobody ever has truly equal conditions - this is just not possible. Players just do what they can with what they have and we watch them play vs each other for entertainment. And SC2 is an asymmetric RTS where conditions are by definition not equal. Races can be dominant for some time, and some players can peak at the wrong time - and nothing can be done about it. I think we can probably talk +/- objectively about best terran / zerg / protoss players of this or that era, or maybe best T/Z/P players of all times (already not easy, how do you compare competitive level of different eras?), but that's probably it. It is definitely both, I don’t see how one can reasonably argue it isn’t. It’s equally daft to me to deny either that the current foreign crop is clearly much stronger than that of the past or that the Korean scene isn’t as strong as it used to be. | ||
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FFXthebest
75 Posts
Once they started full time, the rest is history | ||
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Athenau
570 Posts
On March 07 2024 07:54 FFXthebest wrote: Serral and reynor were not competing full time yet Once they started full time, the rest is history Lul. "Serral and Reynor" != "foreigners" | ||
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ZeroByte13
780 Posts
On March 07 2024 06:22 WombaT wrote: You probably misunderstood me, mate, specifically my use of "vs" - probably I wasn't clear and should rephrase myself.It is definitely both, I don’t see how one can reasonably argue it isn’t. It’s equally daft to me to deny either that the current foreign crop is clearly much stronger than that of the past or that the Korean scene isn’t as strong as it used to be. My answer was to a claim that only in the last 6-8 years we could have a "honest" comparison of Koreans and foreigners, that only in those last 6-8 years we could see "an accurate reflection of true skills levels of each player". And what I meant was that this is not quite true - if we compare only those last 6 years we'll be comparing the best time for foreigners vs the worst time for Koreans with no new blood at all. | ||
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Zealos
United Kingdom3576 Posts
On March 07 2024 05:26 Nasigil wrote: Someone seems so desperately trying to devalue all the foreign achievement since 2016, while forgetting that Maru and Rogue also got main bulk of their achievement after 2016. If anything, the destruction of foreign scene actually put Koreans and rest of the world on an even playing field, and what we see in the last 6-8 years are decently accurate reflection of true skills levels of each player. Where does he mention Maru or Rogue? Feels like you've revealed the fact you're aruging with a theoretical position, rather than the post in front of you | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On March 07 2024 08:38 ZeroByte13 wrote: You probably misunderstood me, mate, specifically my use of "vs" - probably I wasn't clear and should rephrase myself. My answer was to a claim that only in the last 6-8 years we could have a "honest" comparison of Koreans and foreigners, that only in those last 6-8 years we could see "an accurate reflection of true skills levels of each player". And what I meant was that this is not quite true - if we compare only those last 6 years we'll be comparing the best time for foreigners vs the worst time for Koreans with no new blood at all. Oh yeah I was agreeing with you, my comment was more generally directed at some of the more myopic in the thread, apologies for not making that clear! | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1467 Posts
On March 07 2024 05:43 ZeroByte13 wrote: Isn't what we see in the last 6-8 years more like quickly dying Korean scene vs foreign scene at its peak? If you don't agree with quickly dying Korean scene, name a few good Korean players who didn't play professionally before 2016. It's all moot anyway. Players don't choose who they play against, esports regulators do. And there's no true fairness here, nobody ever has truly equal conditions - this is just not possible. Players just do what they can with what they have and we watch them play vs each other for entertainment. And SC2 is an asymmetric RTS where conditions are by definition not equal. Races can be dominant for some time, and some players can peak at the wrong time - and nothing can be done about it. I think we can probably talk +/- objectively about best terran / zerg / protoss players of this or that era, or maybe best T/Z/P players of all times (already not easy, how do you compare competitive level of different eras?), but that's probably it. you can kidn of argue that pre-2016, koreans were playing at an advantage due to infrastructure and league advantage. But peak competitiveness since 2016 has fallen a lot between progamers and that's why some people are doubting post-2016 results even if some of top koreans stayed at top- there's no longer that huge pool of player and competitiveness with staff supporting that anymore | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17147 Posts
On March 05 2024 22:48 Durnuu wrote: It does and it did matter, might not seem like much to us westerners but it was a massive deal in Korea, and many people like Waxangel, Mizenhauer that have contacts with korean players have said time and again that the scandal had a big effect on the korean scene. Not saying that it is the ONLY reason for the decline, most people would agree that a decline was already well on its way, but saying that scandal didn't matter is just as wrong as thinking the korean scene was in a healthy spot before it. pretty ironic that i bring up Mike Tyson and a couple of days after I post it a 58 year old Mike Tyson signs on for a boxing match with massive media coverage. MLB has had numerous steroid scandals and every player is an over sized giant. Pete Rose fixed games. IMO, the MLB brand of baseball is no longer a real sport. MLB is so entertaining ... no one cares. Regarding Tyson: he isn't just a convicted rapist... Here is Tyson proclaiming his devotion to Islam in one sentence while claiming he wants to eat Lennox Lewis' children two sentences later while his friends surrounding him smile and laugh. Mike Tyson's entertainment value far exceeds his misdeeds. I'll be watching July 20th. I hope Tyson puts Jake Paul to sleep. The game just ain't that entertaining. So, we can come up with 5000 rationalizations why people are not watching. However, if the game were as entertaining as a Mike Tyson fight Life's misdeeds would not matter. Life is a saint compared to Mike Tyson and the average MLB baseball player with the HGH levels of a 14 year old at the peak of puberty. Tyson fights and MLB games are so entertaining that the crimes of its participants do not matter. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
Boxing always has that machismo nonsense anyway. Mike Tyson wasn’t called the ‘baddest man on the planet’ for no reason, him being an arsehole doesn’t really change the core appeal there for many. I mean you’re fundamentally comparing apples and oranges here, Life’s misdeeds were directly related to competitive integrity, whereas Tyson’s were in his personal life. Life isn’t some entertaining heel that folks love to hate playing a character, he was directly involved in cheating, involved others in it and caused a lot of damage to his profession. SC2 isn’t some beloved past time played by millions with a century + of tradition, it’s a relatively niche activity with a small pro circuit. The former can take hits when it comes to scandal and sponsor cold feet, the latter really can’t. Football is probably even bigger relatively speaking in the UK than any of the big US sports, it’s the game in town. There’s over a hundred professional clubs, tons of semi-pro ones and thousands of grass roots clubs all over the place. There’s almost nothing conceivable that could happen in the Premier League that could tank the actual sport overall. End of the day you’re arguing against what various sponsors that pulled out, and various involved orgs said happened when Kespa as we knew it ended involvement, which was that Life and the match fixing scandal was a big contributory factor. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17147 Posts
CBC Documentary on Stacraft1 Check out those Avilo style bunkbeds LOL. Tasteless stated he didn't want that kind of life so he opted for being a commentator rather than a player. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17147 Posts
On March 09 2024 04:03 WombaT wrote: How is that relevant? see my previous posts and read them. TLDR if the entertainment value is great. no one cares about anything else. the game aint that entertaining... so now Life's morals and 5000 rationalizations get made. so no one cared about the inhumane working conditions during brood war peak times because the entertainment value was high. get it now? regarding your talk about combat sports being a "special case". Travis Browne was insta cancelled when some random chick posted pics of her bruised face. Why? Browne can't draw money. The same thing happens to Tyson and whether its Don King or whoever is promoting the event the statement would be 'innocent until proven guilty." The Tyson fight is still on! Tyson is more entertaining than Browne so he can get away with almost anything. One of my customers owns a chain of crappy dive Sports Bars in New York state. Let me tell you.. he is pumped for July 20. Kobe Bryant has a statue and is celebrated as some kind of basketball messiah. He definitely cheated on his wife many times and prolly raped a young woman. However, he is extremely entertaining... so no one cares. When Kobe came to Canada once a year it was like the King of England was coming to visit. Cardi B drugged and robbed men. She is entertaining ... so no one cares. Peak Brood War was incredibly entertaining so no one said anything when the working conditions were unethical and inhumane. So this is not just restricted to any one sport. This is a comment about entertainment in general. And, in this particular case the prime factor is : the game just ain't that entertaining. If it were Life would be getting the Kobe Bryant or Mike Tyson or Cardi B treatment. As it is, he is getting the Travis Browne treatment. | ||
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Durnuu
13322 Posts
On March 09 2024 04:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Peak Brood War was incredibly entertaining so no one said anything when the working conditions were unethical and inhumane. So how do you explain saviOr? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17147 Posts
did the Brood War scene "collapse"? to be clear. my statement is that the prime factor in SC2's decline was its lack of entertainment value. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On March 09 2024 04:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote: see my previous posts and read them. TLDR if the entertainment value is great. no one cares about anything else. the game aint that entertaining... so now Life's morals and 5000 rationalizations get made. so no one cared about the inhumane working conditions during brood war peak times because the entertainment value was high. get it now? regarding your talk about combat sports being a "special case". Travis Browne was insta cancelled when some random chick posted pics of her bruised face. Why? Browne can't draw money. The same thing happens to Tyson and whether its Don King or whoever is promoting the event the statement would be 'innocent until proven guilty." The Tyson fight is still on! Tyson is more entertaining than Browne so he can get away with almost anything. One of my customers owns a chain of crappy dive Sports Bars in New York state. Let me tell you.. he is pumped for July 20. Kobe Bryant has a statue and is celebrated as some kind of basketball messiah. He definitely cheated on his wife many times and prolly raped a young woman. However, he is extremely entertaining... so no one cares. When Kobe came to Canada once a year it was like the King of England was coming to visit. Cardi B drugged and robbed men. She is entertaining ... so no one cares. Peak Brood War was incredibly entertaining so no one said anything when the working conditions were unethical and inhumane. So this is not just restricted to any one sport. This is a comment about entertainment in general. And, in this particular case the prime factor is : the game just ain't that entertaining. If it were Life would be getting the Kobe Bryant or Mike Tyson or Cardi B treatment. As it is, he is getting the Travis Browne treatment. Do you actually read what other people post? Like actually process it and factor it in? I already said in my previous post that Tyson’s misbehaviour was outside of the boxing realm, thus it doesn’t really damage the appeal of him getting into a boxing ring. Life and his co-conspirators committed actions that directly damaged perceptions of the competitive integrity of the game itself, and thus sponsors started getting cold feet. And it’s not like these are immutable things either. There are plenty of entertainers who have remained just as entertaining and talented throughout, but have departed centre stage via scandal because that has brought some kind of backlash. What’s I don’t know, Kevin Spacey doing these days eh? To pick one example. I’m sure you know better than Kespa, their showpieces sponsors and their associated teams and that the match fixing scandal wasn’t an issue, and the game just wasn’t entertainment enough. Despite still being a continuing concern in 2024 | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1247 Posts
On March 09 2024 05:13 WombaT wrote: Do you actually read what other people post? Like actually process it and factor it in? He does, in fact, not. Well, somewhat. Instead of riding the "but it didn't hurt the NBA!!1"-train he switched to other sports or tries to change the subject (talking about Life cheating, suddenly it is about the working conditions in teamhouses...). I'm done with trying to get him to see the plot, but I wish you good fortunate if you want to continue to try  | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On March 08 2024 11:08 jinjin5000 wrote: you can kidn of argue that pre-2016, koreans were playing at an advantage due to infrastructure and league advantage. But peak competitiveness since 2016 has fallen a lot between progamers and that's why some people are doubting post-2016 results even if some of top koreans stayed at top- there's no longer that huge pool of player and competitiveness with staff supporting that anymore Honestly, I find this reasoning a bit infuriating. You can't ''doubt'' most of the results of a game, it makes no sense. Post-2016 SC2, is the majority of professional SC2. Kespa has been in SC2 for less than a third of the lifespan of the game. Hell, there has been around as much Starcraft played between now and the region lock than there was between Iloveoov's first title and the region lock. There's no parallel universe where Kespa was a thriving organization for a decade and a half. | ||
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