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Wow, never would have imagined, there are THAT hardcore conspiracy theorists in StarCraft community.
For sure there has to be a big ugly conspiracy by ESL, Europe, Sweden, maybe with involvement of Clem and Reynor fansboys, the deep state and Bill Gates (*sarcasm off*)
There won't be any good solution for all parties involved, now that the milk is spilled.
What matters most is to do everything reasonable, the scenario doesn't repeat next time again.
As Alex wrote, they'll change the timeline and with invitations 2 months in advance, the problems should be solved for the future.
What we really don't need, neither as community nor as society, is a "blame to the bone" culture with the slogan never forget, never forgive.
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On June 16 2023 03:14 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2023 22:40 Balnazza wrote:On June 15 2023 20:30 Elantris wrote:On June 15 2023 20:09 Chemistry101 wrote:On June 15 2023 19:58 Elantris wrote:On June 15 2023 19:46 Chemistry101 wrote:On June 15 2023 18:59 Elantris wrote:On June 15 2023 06:52 Alex007 wrote:
I would still like to clarify that we need to respect the tournament integrity and we absolutely cannot allow any players to participate in the Summer finals remotely as this decision will harm every other player attending the event and create an unfair competitive envinronment Pathetic. Serral/Reynor would be allowed to play online 100% Can you cite an example of something like this EVER having happened, of was your weird theory motivated by nothing but irrational hatred of Europeans? It seems that it is ESL who irrationally hates Chinese. You have already read what happened from both ESL and the Chinese, so as you know, it was a dumb mistake, primarily the mistake being leaving too little time for a process which can take time. You, on the other hand, are trying to shift anger and blame on completely unrelated parties who don't deserve it. And as I suspected, there are no justifiable reasons behind it, so we are back to the irrational hatred. ESL fucked up and as a result should allow Oliveira and Coffee to compete online. But they don't want to so ESL deserves all the blame. Because no one is allowed to play online...it really isn't that hard, please keep up... Bunny and DRG were allowed to play GSL online last year after they got Covid from Valencia and couldn't get back to Korea. Oliveira and Coffee absolutely could do this. ESL is just being lazy.
1)It was Maru, not Bunny.
2)They atleast were in the same country/timezone as their opponents and were both in the same group
3)They only had to play two Bo3s in one day, it was group stage
4)It was still freaking Covid, very special circumstances
5)Since conspiracy theories are apparently cool: "iT wAs OnLy bEcAuSe iT wAs mArU". So maybe GSL is just biased?
You cannot have two players play out potentially three days of competition, including Grand Finals. Has nothing to do with ESL being lazy, just with people being extremly whiny and impractical...
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On June 16 2023 05:02 Tommy131313 wrote:
Wow, never would have imagined, there are THAT hardcore conspiracy theorists in StarCraft community.
For sure there has to be a big ugly conspiracy by ESL, Europe, Sweden, maybe with involvement of Clem and Reynor fansboys, the deep state and Bill Gates (*sarcasm off*)
There won't be any good solution for all parties involved, now that the milk is spilled.
What matters most is to do everything reasonable, the scenario doesn't repeat next time again.
As Alex wrote, they'll change the timeline and with invitations 2 months in advance, the problems should be solved for the future.
What we really don't need, neither as community nor as society, is a "blame to the bone" culture with the slogan never forget, never forgive.
What I think matters most is that ESL do something to not unfairly fuck over Oliveira and Coffee for the rest of the year because they now miss out on a gigantic chunk of EPT points because in case you guys forgot all of these tournaments affect the seeding for the end of the year. (And this doesn't even take into consideration if these guys had to cancel flights or lose money on booking arrangements, not to mention, missed opportunities on prize money.)
Apologizing and doing the "we'll do better next time" bit is the obvious bare minimum, if they HADN'T at least done that, then something would be seriously wrong here. Getting ahead of the knock on effects of this screw up now, instead of waiting until Katowice to do something about it would be an actual nice next step.
I don't accept "oh we messed up, sorry the standings will be ruined for the rest of the year" as an acceptable response for something like this. More is needed.
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On June 16 2023 05:50 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2023 05:02 Tommy131313 wrote:
Wow, never would have imagined, there are THAT hardcore conspiracy theorists in StarCraft community.
For sure there has to be a big ugly conspiracy by ESL, Europe, Sweden, maybe with involvement of Clem and Reynor fansboys, the deep state and Bill Gates (*sarcasm off*)
There won't be any good solution for all parties involved, now that the milk is spilled.
What matters most is to do everything reasonable, the scenario doesn't repeat next time again.
As Alex wrote, they'll change the timeline and with invitations 2 months in advance, the problems should be solved for the future.
What we really don't need, neither as community nor as society, is a "blame to the bone" culture with the slogan never forget, never forgive. What I think matters most is that ESL do something to not unfairly fuck over Oliveira and Coffee for the rest of the year because they now miss out on a gigantic chunk of EPT points because in case you guys forgot all of these tournaments affect the seeding for the end of the year. (And this doesn't even take into consideration if these guys had to cancel flights or lose money on booking arrangements, not to mention, missed opportunities on prize money.) Apologizing and doing the "we'll do better next time" bit is the obvious bare minimum, if they HADN'T at least done that, then something would be seriously wrong here. Getting ahead of the knock on effects of this screw up now, instead of waiting until Katowice to do something about it would be an actual nice next step. I don't accept "oh we messed up, sorry the standings will be ruined for the rest of the year" as an acceptable response for something like this. More is needed.
Come on, it's not that big of a deal, some ppl will miss a video game tournament, it sucks for them but whatever.
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Of course... the only person who can reliably take down Serral had visa issues. Of course ESL forgot.
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On June 16 2023 06:04 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2023 05:50 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 16 2023 05:02 Tommy131313 wrote:
Wow, never would have imagined, there are THAT hardcore conspiracy theorists in StarCraft community.
For sure there has to be a big ugly conspiracy by ESL, Europe, Sweden, maybe with involvement of Clem and Reynor fansboys, the deep state and Bill Gates (*sarcasm off*)
There won't be any good solution for all parties involved, now that the milk is spilled.
What matters most is to do everything reasonable, the scenario doesn't repeat next time again.
As Alex wrote, they'll change the timeline and with invitations 2 months in advance, the problems should be solved for the future.
What we really don't need, neither as community nor as society, is a "blame to the bone" culture with the slogan never forget, never forgive. What I think matters most is that ESL do something to not unfairly fuck over Oliveira and Coffee for the rest of the year because they now miss out on a gigantic chunk of EPT points because in case you guys forgot all of these tournaments affect the seeding for the end of the year. (And this doesn't even take into consideration if these guys had to cancel flights or lose money on booking arrangements, not to mention, missed opportunities on prize money.) Apologizing and doing the "we'll do better next time" bit is the obvious bare minimum, if they HADN'T at least done that, then something would be seriously wrong here. Getting ahead of the knock on effects of this screw up now, instead of waiting until Katowice to do something about it would be an actual nice next step. I don't accept "oh we messed up, sorry the standings will be ruined for the rest of the year" as an acceptable response for something like this. More is needed. Come on, it's not that big of a deal, some ppl will miss a video game tournament, it sucks for them but whatever.
If it was just one tournament I wouldn't care this much I assure you. But this is a circuit event, all of the events tie into one another culminating in the end of year championship event that ironically one of the guys being fucked over just won last year.
And with the massive downsizing that ESL did this year thanks to the Blizzard pull out, there's going to be fewer and fewer places for players to make up the kind of points that missing this tournament will have on the end of year standings. ESL of course knows all of this, and you'd think they'd WANT to make sure that their mistake doesn't cost these guys their chance to compete at Katowice at the end of the year. So it seems obvious to me, that the logical first thing to do after admitting they were the ones that messed this up would be to do something to help fix the problem before it gets worse.
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On June 16 2023 06:06 tlnetuser108 wrote:
Of course... the only person who can reliably take down Serral had visa issues. Of course ESL forgot.
Don't be ridiculous. Dark, Maru, Clem and Reynor are there. They all have a better shot vs Serral than Oliveira does. This isn't a mess because of Serral. It's a mess because Oliveira and Coffee are missing out on their chance on a major stage, prize money and EPT points. And their fans are missing out on seeing them play in this major tournament. Serral has nothing to do with anything.
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Northern Ireland23275 Posts
On June 16 2023 06:06 tlnetuser108 wrote:
Of course... the only person who can reliably take down Serral had visa issues. Of course ESL forgot.
Clem and Reynor had visa issues?
It fucking sucks but Olivera’s world championship was so epic because he’s always been talented but never that consistently great.
The idea that ESL is somehow fixing it to keep Serral inflated is preposterous. If anything viewers want to see people who can take him out, not the opposite.
WCS EU sure felt a bit more hyped and interesting when the likes of Reynor and Clem started taking Serral out rather than him cruising
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On June 16 2023 03:19 JoePlank3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2023 02:28 Rob-Zero wrote:
I meant all of the complainers never did any mistake in their lives, because anyone would only have the right to behave like this if they never did anything wrong. I'm being sarcastic here, obviously.
ESL of course did mistakes, that is why they apologized already.
And there is no benefit in seeing the world only as it is. I strive for improvement and politeness. And i dont see any point why i shouldn't. Is it so hard to be reasonable and somewhat nice especially in a situation like this? Does it make anything better when everyone shouts angrily at others because of a mistake? Don't think so. If you'd know even Alex's long explanation is actually kind of shirking their responsibility,you would still think so? Let's see. This is from Alex007's response: " 1. Oliveira had locked in his slot on May 21st, Coffee has technically locked in his slot on May 25th but it was still obvious on May 21st that he's gonna get the slot. 2. Our invitational letters have been prepared within two days, then printed and signed within the next day and then sent on May 25th. 3. The person working for the parcel service assured us that they were going to use the fastest possible way of delivery. We were told that the package was set to arrive in China on May 31st at latest. 4. The package has indeed arrived in China on May 31st but was stuck at customs and therefore reached out its destination too late. 5. We contacted the embassy to try speed up the visa application process for Oliveira and Coffee, but this is not the area where any result can be guaranteed - and this didn't work out this time." So according to 3.4. seems ESL already made enough effort to make the delivery of the invitation letter ASAP ,but it stuck at China customs.Ok,China customs is the bad guy here. But interesting thing is,we already got the tracking record from coffee.Hard to put an image here but I can explain it: The package was processed at Shanghai customs in Shanghai customs,beginning 2023-05-30 07:41 ,end 2023-06-01 00:54 Then it was taken to transportation.For Coffee's invitation letter ,there's another customs process beginning 2023-06-03 08:46,end 2023-06-03 13:05 ,while for Oliveira it's just transportation. So you can see even for Coffee's two phase customs process it only took less than 24 hours in total. THE PACKAGE DIDN'T STUCK AT CUSTOMS AT ALL! What made the transportation so slow that Oliveira and Coffee couldn't receive it until 06-05? The slow transportation from Regular EMS package delivery service.Even with DKZ manager Hyperion consistently pushing ESL contact from 05-22 until 05-25,ESL still chose a regular delivery service. It's quoted that if ESL could have use DHL/UPS,it could arrive much sooner. See?Even Alex's explanation is trying to shirk their mistakes. Another ironic news came yesterday as the Sweden consulate just called both players that their VISA were about to be ready.So now we realize that ,it's only two days late ,for the whole thing. What a pity.
Man, you are putting way too much effort into this. I know nothing of the stuff that is going on behind the scenes, and neither do you. Yah, maybe Alex isn't telling the whole truth. Maybe he tries to protect someone from the staff and maybe he blames himself instead, maybe ESL has less money than last year and so they have less workers for the same amount of work, which leads to mistakes. What do we know?
Still, is it necessary to further blame them even after an apology? Is this really that big, that we have to imagine some new conspiracy theories about it? Really? Can't we just wait and see what happens and what they are doing about it? Why all the anger about an incident that, while being sad and having of course (at best only financial) consequences for Coffee and Oliveira, still did not hurt anyone in a serious way? Blaming ESL for racism and or some sort of matchfixing among other things?
So lets assume Alex lied, like you imply. So what? What do you want? Why are you arguing? Are you offering ANY solutions? Should ESL fire him and all his co workers and should the world deny his existence from now until the Nile dries out? Should Donald Trump take over ESL and hire Hillary Clinton to make ESL great again?
IT WAS A LETTER SEND LATE !!
My god, the Internet.
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On June 16 2023 05:02 Tommy131313 wrote:
Wow, never would have imagined, there are THAT hardcore conspiracy theorists in StarCraft community.
Yeah, this incident for some reason evokes some of the most mind-numbingly absurd takes I have read in a while.
This one is a good example:
On June 16 2023 06:06 tlnetuser108 wrote:
Of course... the only person who can reliably take down Serral had visa issues. Of course ESL forgot.
Aside from the points already mentioned, the last encounters between Serral and Oliveira ended 3-0 and 2-0 in Serral's favor.
On June 16 2023 07:47 Rob-Zero wrote:
IT WAS A LETTER SEND LATE !!
My god, the Internet.
Completely agree. It's a very unfortunate matter, no doubt about that, but the fierceness of some of the comments here is disturbing.
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On June 16 2023 07:47 Rob-Zero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2023 03:19 JoePlank3 wrote:On June 16 2023 02:28 Rob-Zero wrote:
I meant all of the complainers never did any mistake in their lives, because anyone would only have the right to behave like this if they never did anything wrong. I'm being sarcastic here, obviously.
ESL of course did mistakes, that is why they apologized already.
And there is no benefit in seeing the world only as it is. I strive for improvement and politeness. And i dont see any point why i shouldn't. Is it so hard to be reasonable and somewhat nice especially in a situation like this? Does it make anything better when everyone shouts angrily at others because of a mistake? Don't think so. If you'd know even Alex's long explanation is actually kind of shirking their responsibility,you would still think so? Let's see. This is from Alex007's response: " 1. Oliveira had locked in his slot on May 21st, Coffee has technically locked in his slot on May 25th but it was still obvious on May 21st that he's gonna get the slot. 2. Our invitational letters have been prepared within two days, then printed and signed within the next day and then sent on May 25th. 3. The person working for the parcel service assured us that they were going to use the fastest possible way of delivery. We were told that the package was set to arrive in China on May 31st at latest. 4. The package has indeed arrived in China on May 31st but was stuck at customs and therefore reached out its destination too late. 5. We contacted the embassy to try speed up the visa application process for Oliveira and Coffee, but this is not the area where any result can be guaranteed - and this didn't work out this time." So according to 3.4. seems ESL already made enough effort to make the delivery of the invitation letter ASAP ,but it stuck at China customs.Ok,China customs is the bad guy here. But interesting thing is,we already got the tracking record from coffee.Hard to put an image here but I can explain it: The package was processed at Shanghai customs in Shanghai customs,beginning 2023-05-30 07:41 ,end 2023-06-01 00:54 Then it was taken to transportation.For Coffee's invitation letter ,there's another customs process beginning 2023-06-03 08:46,end 2023-06-03 13:05 ,while for Oliveira it's just transportation. So you can see even for Coffee's two phase customs process it only took less than 24 hours in total. THE PACKAGE DIDN'T STUCK AT CUSTOMS AT ALL! What made the transportation so slow that Oliveira and Coffee couldn't receive it until 06-05? The slow transportation from Regular EMS package delivery service.Even with DKZ manager Hyperion consistently pushing ESL contact from 05-22 until 05-25,ESL still chose a regular delivery service. It's quoted that if ESL could have use DHL/UPS,it could arrive much sooner. See?Even Alex's explanation is trying to shirk their mistakes. Another ironic news came yesterday as the Sweden consulate just called both players that their VISA were about to be ready.So now we realize that ,it's only two days late ,for the whole thing. What a pity. Man, you are putting way too much effort into this. I know nothing of the stuff that is going on behind the scenes, and neither do you. Yah, maybe Alex isn't telling the whole truth. Maybe he tries to protect someone from the staff and maybe he blames himself instead, maybe ESL has less money than last year and so they have less workers for the same amount of work, which leads to mistakes. What do we know? Still, is it necessary to further blame them even after an apology? Is this really that big, that we have to imagine some new conspiracy theories about it? Really? Can't we just wait and see what happens and what they are doing about it? Why all the anger about an incident that, while being sad and having of course (at best only financial) consequences for Coffee and Oliveira, still did not hurt anyone in a serious way? Blaming ESL for racism and or some sort of matchfixing among other things? So lets assume Alex lied, like you imply. So what? What do you want? Why are you arguing? Are you offering ANY solutions? Should ESL fire him and all his co workers and should the world deny his existence from now until the Nile dries out? Should Donald Trump take over ESL and hire Hillary Clinton to make ESL great again? IT WAS A LETTER SEND LATE !! My god, the Internet.
First of all ,"I know nothing of the stuff that is going on behind the scenes, and neither do you" is wrong here.We Chinese SC2 Community is always concerning about VISA issue since this has never been smooth for Chinese SC2 proplayers through the years.So we followed with the VISA process from the very beginning this time,we got lot more infomation from Oliveira,Coffee and DKZ team manager Hyperion who's giving much effort help the two applying for the VISA.That's why we know how ESL contact person acted slowly and casually.
Secondly,I'm not the one talking about these conspiracy theory like ESL do this on purpose or anything about racism.I won't assume Oliveira could take down Serral.I'm just talking about ESL's incompetence here.
You can downplay the problem with simple word "IT WAS A LETTER SEND LATE",like ESL has done what they needed to do and it's just an unfortunate accident.Have you realized how much this issue hurt the SC2 Pro gamer community?We all know SC2 is a dying game and the worst situation is there will be only three or four more major events for this game,especially for ESL series.We Chinese fans have heard about Oliveira's retirement plan since last year,and this accident ruined another chance for him to play on a world scene.Coffee also talked about same thing and he said it might be the best chance for him,but now it's lost.
You pretend to be neutral and objective ,but actually you are showing no empathy for the two pro players.
What we are asking for?A sincere apology from ESL ,not like the one Alex gave which actually shrinked their responsibility,blame the customs instead.And announcement of compensation for Oliveira,Coffee.We talk about EPT points and financial compensation as well.Unlike Oliveira, Coffee's not in good financial condition，but the VISA application expense's on his own,not ESL .That's also from Coffee himself,it's not rumor.
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GSL's exception to online play was from the same country and probably observed first hand by staff.
As far as the rest of it is concerned visa issues have been a thing since esports become global. A letter being sent late and customs specifically delaying that letter seems like an oddball cop out especially from a company who has been doing it for as long as this. If some how a letter, which crazily gets held up by customs, is the only way to start the ball rolling on applying for a visa perhaps you should look for a better way to start the ball rolling. While I don't know anything about visas and how they work in other countries and all that is required surely there has to be a better and faster way to start the process than receiving a mailed invitation.
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On June 16 2023 06:04 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2023 05:50 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 16 2023 05:02 Tommy131313 wrote:
Wow, never would have imagined, there are THAT hardcore conspiracy theorists in StarCraft community.
For sure there has to be a big ugly conspiracy by ESL, Europe, Sweden, maybe with involvement of Clem and Reynor fansboys, the deep state and Bill Gates (*sarcasm off*)
There won't be any good solution for all parties involved, now that the milk is spilled.
What matters most is to do everything reasonable, the scenario doesn't repeat next time again.
As Alex wrote, they'll change the timeline and with invitations 2 months in advance, the problems should be solved for the future.
What we really don't need, neither as community nor as society, is a "blame to the bone" culture with the slogan never forget, never forgive. What I think matters most is that ESL do something to not unfairly fuck over Oliveira and Coffee for the rest of the year because they now miss out on a gigantic chunk of EPT points because in case you guys forgot all of these tournaments affect the seeding for the end of the year. (And this doesn't even take into consideration if these guys had to cancel flights or lose money on booking arrangements, not to mention, missed opportunities on prize money.) Apologizing and doing the "we'll do better next time" bit is the obvious bare minimum, if they HADN'T at least done that, then something would be seriously wrong here. Getting ahead of the knock on effects of this screw up now, instead of waiting until Katowice to do something about it would be an actual nice next step. I don't accept "oh we messed up, sorry the standings will be ruined for the rest of the year" as an acceptable response for something like this. More is needed. Come on, it's not that big of a deal, some ppl will miss a video game tournament, it sucks for them but whatever.
It's what they do for a living and they are having a dramatic decrease to their earnings potential for reasons completely outside their control. How would you feel if your boss randomly said they were going to reduce your pay by 20% for the year because of a problem they caused?
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On June 16 2023 02:28 Rob-Zero wrote:(at best only financial)
Only financial? This literally ruins the standings and points of the entire yearly circuit. How is this only financial? Spoken like someone who has no clue what the impact is.
Oh, of course, you're European. If the tournament was in Asia and EU players couldn't go surely you would have a completely different take.
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cmon guys, it's not like ESL has a horrendous track record with these kind of things when it pertains to players outside of EU
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You're right, but ESL master is a StarCraft 2 World Championship held in Sweden. Here the best of the best will be awarded a "qualifying spot" and go directly to the main tournament . You will take on the role of a mysterious character named "spectator" and meet fellow players with different personalities and opinions in the LIQUID and SCBOY forums, and together with them, you will find evidence to find out who is the culprit - and at the same time, gradually discover the truth of "dumping"
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On June 16 2023 10:05 DIVINE_PEZZ wrote:Only financial? This literally ruins the standings and points of the entire yearly circuit. How is this only financial? Spoken like someone who has no clue what the impact is. Oh, of course, you're European. If the tournament was in Asia and EU players couldn't go surely you would have a completely different take.
I think we still don't know yet how the World Championships will look and how many players will be getting a spot, but if there are still direct invites it is fair to say Oliveira will get one easily, so for him the ranking issue will have zero ramifications. Coffee is in a tougher spot ofc, but seeing how apparently at best only 20% of people complaining in this thread even care about him...
Lets face it: It is a very shitty situation, especially for those two players and ESL will have to learn from that...but that's it. There won't be much else consequences and there honestly shouldn't be. So can we please chill out?
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I mean, if somebody throwing a can of paint into your house, you should burn their house down, not just accepting some weak-ass "sorry" statement. At least thats the impression I got from most of the igniting comment around here. Like I said, people will move on from this eventually, but I feel that we are in no right to tell them to chill down neither. Oliveira standing/influence in China SC2 community right now is equal to Serral to EU "fanboys" and Maru to KR "fanboys" (including me) COMBINED. And I know I would be furious if ESL screwed over Maru with shit like this, let them rage.
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On June 16 2023 12:05 tigera6 wrote:
I mean, if somebody throwing a can of paint into your house, you should burn their house down, not just accepting some weak-ass "sorry" statement. At least thats the impression I got from most of the igniting comment around here. Like I said, people will move on from this eventually, but I feel that we are in no right to tell them to chill down neither. Oliveira standing/influence in China SC2 community right now is equal to Serral to EU "fanboys" and Maru to KR "fanboys" (including me) COMBINED. And I know I would be furious if ESL screwed over Maru with shit like this, let them rage.
Exactly. Imagine the rage if it was Serral who did not get to participate in the US, because ESL did not manage to send him the invitation letter on time. There would be heaps of outrage, like there is amongst the Chinese community about Oliviera. Rightly so. It would be like Real Madrid missing out on the Champions League because someone did not send them a letter in time.
I still don't get how they could mess this up in this way. Why not send out the invitation to all the pro-gamers already at the start of the year (with conditions attached to the invitations depending on where they finish in the regionals)? Or send a digital letter and then get them to print it out? It just seems to me that there are a million and one ways that they could have avoided this, and somehow managed to do the one thing that messes everything up.
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EPT
