EPTTournament integrity is a lame excuse in this scenario. Integrity of the tournament wouldn't be threatened
Oliveira unable to attend ESL Summer + ESL response - Page…
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Update: ESL's Alex007 has given an official response: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/612805-oliveira-unable-to-attend-esl-summer?page=5#93 | ||
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Pandain
United States12981 Posts
Tournament integrity is a lame excuse in this scenario. Integrity of the tournament wouldn't be threatened | ||
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
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CzG
1 Post
On June 16 2023 07:47 Rob-Zero wrote: Man, you are putting way too much effort into this. I know nothing of the stuff that is going on behind the scenes, and neither do you. Yah, maybe Alex isn't telling the whole truth. Maybe he tries to protect someone from the staff and maybe he blames himself instead, maybe ESL has less money than last year and so they have less workers for the same amount of work, which leads to mistakes. What do we know? Still, is it necessary to further blame them even after an apology? Is this really that big, that we have to imagine some new conspiracy theories about it? Really? Can't we just wait and see what happens and what they are doing about it? Why all the anger about an incident that, while being sad and having of course (at best only financial) consequences for Coffee and Oliveira, still did not hurt anyone in a serious way? Blaming ESL for racism and or some sort of matchfixing among other things? So lets assume Alex lied, like you imply. So what? What do you want? Why are you arguing? Are you offering ANY solutions? Should ESL fire him and all his co workers and should the world deny his existence from now until the Nile dries out? Should Donald Trump take over ESL and hire Hillary Clinton to make ESL great again? IT WAS A LETTER SEND LATE !! My god, the Internet. Man, I assume you are a fan of Germen football team since your location show you are in Germany. Imagine Germany won a FIFA Wrold Cup EU quilifier but not able to make it to the World Cup main event due to some stupid VISA issues caused by the organizer. And the spot is replaced by some other team that lost to Germany badly in the qualifier. This whole thing gonna become a political issue right away and the organizer will get into deep trouble regardless how kindly and sincere the apology is. Also, you will get mad for sure even after their apology. This is exactly what is happening in Chinese SC2 community right now. What you have said is because you are not a fan of Oliveira and Coffee. Their appearance in Sweden doesn't mean anything to you. It's just like, alright, if Oliveira and Coffee cannot make it, bring someone else here, that's it. It's not really big to you, but it's big to all Oliveira and Coffee's fans. Don't forget ESL also gonna lose tons of audiance in China. You don't understand at all how disappoint and angry Oliveira and Coffee's fans feel. Their favorate players, IEM Katowice Champ can't make it to the main event due to something that could have been avoid if ESL is more professional. Of course I understand you wanna bring some peace to the community, but everyone has the right to show their anger and disappointment here to ESL. Let ESL see the consequences of their unprofessional. People still blame then even after apology not only because the absence of their fav player, it's also a remind to ESL. NEVER EVER LET THIS SHIT HAPPEN AGAIN! | ||
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micutzumargy
6 Posts
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Rob-Zero
Germany452 Posts
On June 16 2023 09:09 JoePlank3 wrote: First of all ,"I know nothing of the stuff that is going on behind the scenes, and neither do you" is wrong here.We Chinese SC2 Community is always concerning about VISA issue since this has never been smooth for Chinese SC2 proplayers through the years.So we followed with the VISA process from the very beginning this time,we got lot more infomation from Oliveira,Coffee and DKZ team manager Hyperion who's giving much effort help the two applying for the VISA.That's why we know how ESL contact person acted slowly and casually. Secondly,I'm not the one talking about these conspiracy theory like ESL do this on purpose or anything about racism.I won't assume Oliveira could take down Serral.I'm just talking about ESL's incompetence here. You can downplay the problem with simple word "IT WAS A LETTER SEND LATE",like ESL has done what they needed to do and it's just an unfortunate accident.Have you realized how much this issue hurt the SC2 Pro gamer community?We all know SC2 is a dying game and the worst situation is there will be only three or four more major events for this game,especially for ESL series.We Chinese fans have heard about Oliveira's retirement plan since last year,and this accident ruined another chance for him to play on a world scene.Coffee also talked about same thing and he said it might be the best chance for him,but now it's lost. You pretend to be neutral and objective ,but actually you are showing no empathy for the two pro players. What we are asking for?A sincere apology from ESL ,not like the one Alex gave which actually shrinked their responsibility,blame the customs instead.And announcement of compensation for Oliveira,Coffee.We talk about EPT points and financial compensation as well.Unlike Oliveira, Coffee's not in good financial condition，but the VISA application expense's on his own,not ESL .That's also from Coffee himself,it's not rumor. You still dont know what is going on behind the scenes of ESL, so my point still stands. I dont know If I am neutral here or not tbh, but I would have loved to see both of them, of course. To tell me i am not empathic towards the Chinese players is not fair in my eyes. But over the years of scbw and sc2 things like this happened to a lot of players and I don't see where this is a problem only for the Asian and/or Chinese community. Of course all of these incidents were bad for the sc scene. Furthermore sc2 pro player is not a normal job, it has risks in a lot of ways, and the players all know that. It is a pity, but still you make this way bigger than it is. This "sincere apology" thing, don't know what to say about that. You are assuming things here and demanding compensation for that, tbh I don't think you are in a position to do that and you just assume the apology is not sincere, out of your standards. About the announcement: as I said, maybe just wait and see before blaming and shouting? Things like this take time. Wait a bit and see. And if it does not happen, you have still enough time to criticize. You are just on a witch hunt here and that does not lead to anything. Also you are not contributing anything to the whole thing, aside from blame and hate. What for? I think you don't empathize with ESL workers maybe? They are just humans. Did you never make a mistake where afterwards you thought: I f***ed up there, I was dumb? I did. So please, calm down a bit and wait and see. On June 16 2023 10:05 DIVINE_PEZZ wrote: Only financial? This literally ruins the standings and points of the entire yearly circuit. How is this only financial? Spoken like someone who has no clue what the impact is. Oh, of course, you're European. If the tournament was in Asia and EU players couldn't go surely you would have a completely different take. No, I wouldn't. Dont know where this European/Asian thing is coming from? I absolutely love the Asian community and most of its players. Maybe you should not infer others from yourself? I know what the impact is, since it did not happen for the first time. Sc2 is still here, and it will still decline slowly. About the circuit and the points and the standing, maybe you guys just wait and see. But I know, it is much more common these days to meet trouble halfway instead of just observing what will happen next. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
620 Posts
The solution to problems like this is to simply hold the qualification to this tournament earlier and allow more buffer time. Even allowing 1 or 2 more weeks buffer time could solve an issue like this. In addition, if Chinese players have a harder time getting a visa, ESL can have the Asia qualifier earlier. It's not ideal to have the Asia qualifier earlier, but it takes into consideration that players are coming from countries where they can't get a visa easily so they need more time. | ||
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JoePlank3
United States7 Posts
On June 16 2023 23:55 Rob-Zero wrote: You still dont know what is going on behind the scenes of ESL, so my point still stands. I dont know If I am neutral here or not tbh, but I would have loved to see both of them, of course. To tell me i am not empathic towards the Chinese players is not fair in my eyes. But over the years of scbw and sc2 things like this happened to a lot of players and I don't see where this is a problem only for the Asian and/or Chinese community. Of course all of these incidents were bad for the sc scene. Furthermore sc2 pro player is not a normal job, it has risks in a lot of ways, and the players all know that. It is a pity, but still you make this way bigger than it is. This "sincere apology" thing, don't know what to say about that. You are assuming things here and demanding compensation for that, tbh I don't think you are in a position to do that and you just assume the apology is not sincere, out of your standards. About the announcement: as I said, maybe just wait and see before blaming and shouting? Things like this take time. Wait a bit and see. And if it does not happen, you have still enough time to criticize. You are just on a witch hunt here and that does not lead to anything. Also you are not contributing anything to the whole thing, aside from blame and hate. What for? I think you don't empathize with ESL workers maybe? They are just humans. Did you never make a mistake where afterwards you thought: I f***ed up there, I was dumb? I did. So please, calm down a bit and wait and see. No, I wouldn't. Dont know where this European/Asian thing is coming from? I absolutely love the Asian community and most of its players. Maybe you should not infer others from yourself? I know what the impact is, since it did not happen for the first time. Sc2 is still here, and it will still decline slowly. About the circuit and the points and the standing, maybe you guys just wait and see. But I know, it is much more common these days to meet trouble halfway instead of just observing what will happen next. You still dont know what is going on behind the scenes of ESL, so my point still stands. I dont know If I am neutral here or not tbh, but I would have loved to see both of them, of course. To tell me i am not empathic towards the Chinese players is not fair in my eyes. But over the years of scbw and sc2 things like this happened to a lot of players and I don't see where this is a problem only for the Asian and/or Chinese community. Of course all of these incidents were bad for the sc scene. Furthermore sc2 pro player is not a normal job, it has risks in a lot of ways, and the players all know that. It is a pity, but still you make this way bigger than it is. This "sincere apology" thing, don't know what to say about that. You are assuming things here and demanding compensation for that, tbh I don't think you are in a position to do that and you just assume the apology is not sincere, out of your standards. About the announcement: as I said, maybe just wait and see before blaming and shouting? Things like this take time. Wait a bit and see. And if it does not happen, you have still enough time to criticize. You are just on a witch hunt here and that does not lead to anything. Also you are not contributing anything to the whole thing, aside from blame and hate. What for? I think you don't empathize with ESL workers maybe? They are just humans. Did you never make a mistake where afterwards you thought: I f***ed up there, I was dumb? I did. So please, calm down a bit and wait and see. On June 16 2023 10:05 DIVINE_PEZZ wrote: Only financial? This literally ruins the standings and points of the entire yearly circuit. How is this only financial? Spoken like someone who has no clue what the impact is. Oh, of course, you're European. If the tournament was in Asia and EU players couldn't go surely you would have a completely different take. No, I wouldn't. Dont know where this European/Asian thing is coming from? I absolutely love the Asian community and most of its players. Maybe you should not infer others from yourself? I know what the impact is, since it did not happen for the first time. Sc2 is still here, and it will still decline slowly. About the circuit and the points and the standing, maybe you guys just wait and see. But I know, it is much more common these days to meet trouble halfway instead of just observing what will happen next. [/QUOTE] Again,let me be clear here.I do know much more about this case than you do,cause Oliveira and Coffee DKZ team manager Hyperion kept updating the VISA progress in Chinese SC2 community.While you,did nothing and made no effort to get to know more ,just sitting there and to be neutral and "fair". Hyperion started to contact with ESL from 05-22,that's the very first day after the invited players were confirmed.And Hyperion emphasised the the urgency of timeline to ESL.On 05-23, staff A from ESL told Hyperion the letters will be sent on 23 or 24.Then on 24, staff A said she didn't know one of the related colleagues was on vacation so it's delayed again. On 05-25,the letters were finally ready,but even with knowing the urgency of this it is,ESL still chose regular EMS delivery instead of Expedited shipping service.Why we knew this?Cause on 05-31 Oliveira and Coffee tried to contact with the delivery carrier to see if the package could be faster,the carrier told them it's regular one and is still within the normal time limit of the delivery.Finally they received the letters on 06-04. Ironically,ESL told Hyperion on 05-25 that " the players will receive the package by 05-31". Let me quote more from Coffee's annoucement which was originally in Chinese.“What really made me uncomfortable this time was that I had already seen that hope was almost already in my hands. But it feels like ESL's attitude towards you is they do not care about you at all.All your efforts are not even as important in ESL's eyes as if his vacation matters more." I swear these are all from Hyperion and Coffee's formal annoucements and I didn't change anything at all.If you think these maybe lies ,then how can you explain ESL now has admitted their mistake?Then there' no more point further talk about this case. Knowing all there ,you still think it's just ESL staff's personal mistakes and we should empathize with ESL staff as well? IT'S NOT AN ACCIDENT THAT CANNOT BE FORESEE OR A PERSONAL MISTAKE ,IT'S A MATTER OF THEIR ATTITUDE TOWARDS CHINESE PLAYERS! Even with one of the player being the reigning world champion,ESL still didn't care much about them and did this shit thing.It's not an accident,it's incompetence and arrogance towards the two qualified players. Tell me,Oliveira and Coffee and the team manager did nothing wrong,instead have done all they could to explain to ESL again and again about the timeline,while ESL basically didn't care much about it then messed everthing.Who you should have empathy for?The players ,or the staff? I won't be blaming staff A or any individual in ESL.But ESL as a whole should totally take responsibility of this incidence,make a formal sincere apology(not by simply replying this post and explain nothing on their twitter ,which just announce Oliveira and Coffee were replaced with no further explanation). | ||
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Mutaller
United States1032 Posts
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Rob-Zero
Germany452 Posts
So okay, I will wait and see what happens next, like I told you guys to do. Maybe you are right, but I personally don't think it is something against the Chinese scene, especially since it is so very important nowadays for sc2 in general. But as I said, I know nothing about the stuff going on behind the scenes. I think we both made our points clear, and I thank you for not getting personal along the way. I also think there is nothing to gain from further arguing. I hope ESL and the players will find an acceptable solution. It is sad that Coffee feels like that and I feel sorry for him. For Oliveira, too, of course, but I think he is in a much better position, if I am allowed to say that. Best regards | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1591 Posts
On June 17 2023 00:07 xelnaga_empire wrote: How does ESL mess this up? The reigning Katowice champion is not in the ESL summer tournament, not because he didn't qualify or not because he chose not to go, but because ESL didn't time things right. The solution to problems like this is to simply hold the qualification to this tournament earlier and allow more buffer time. Even allowing 1 or 2 more weeks buffer time could solve an issue like this. In addition, if Chinese players have a harder time getting a visa, ESL can have the Asia qualifier earlier. It's not ideal to have the Asia qualifier earlier, but it takes into consideration that players are coming from countries where they can't get a visa easily so they need more time. The reason they posted smells like bullshit. Do they really rely on the mail and a letter to start getting the ball rolling on visas for participating in their tournament? You can't email or fax it? There isn't a more streamlined process like a government agency website you can apply on? Whatever it is it has nothing to do with a letter getting lost in the mail or delayed in the mail. Perhaps China is just a bitch to work with on visa things. Perhaps if ESL covers flights whatever charter flying out of China very expensive. | ||
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JoePlank3
United States7 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
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sigp226
3 Posts
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pzlama333
United States275 Posts
On June 17 2023 09:27 NoobSkills wrote: The reason they posted smells like bullshit. Do they really rely on the mail and a letter to start getting the ball rolling on visas for participating in their tournament? You can't email or fax it? There isn't a more streamlined process like a government agency website you can apply on? Whatever it is it has nothing to do with a letter getting lost in the mail or delayed in the mail. Perhaps China is just a bitch to work with on visa things. Perhaps if ESL covers flights whatever charter flying out of China very expensive. Do they really rely on the mail and a letter to start getting the ball rolling on visas for participating in their tournament? Yes, they really reply on the mail and a letter. The Swedish embassy requires them for visa. You can't email or fax it? No, you cannot. The Swedish embassy says clearly that they do not accept it. Whatever it is it has nothing to do with a letter getting lost in the mail or delayed in the mail. ESL sent it by EMS regular mail. The China Custom passed it on time. But because it is EMS regular mail, EMS must go though every checkpoint and transit center and there is no way to pick them up earlier. UPS, DHL, or even EMS express will deliver them much faster. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17739 Posts
On June 17 2023 09:27 NoobSkills wrote: The reason they posted smells like bullshit. Do they really rely on the mail and a letter to start getting the ball rolling on visas for participating in their tournament? You can't email or fax it? There isn't a more streamlined process like a government agency website you can apply on? Whatever it is it has nothing to do with a letter getting lost in the mail or delayed in the mail. Perhaps China is just a bitch to work with on visa things. Perhaps if ESL covers flights whatever charter flying out of China very expensive. You sound like you've never had to apply for a visa. Some few countries have an online application process, but most require you to show up, in person, at the consulate with all the required documents in physical format The documents have to be original and generally there is also an expiration period. Invitation letters, proof of no criminal record, proof of funds, proof of residence, etc. are all documents that expire. How Sweden works specifically, I don't know, but requiring a physical letter of invitation is a very common requirement | ||
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Master of DalK
Canada1797 Posts
On June 17 2023 09:27 NoobSkills wrote: The reason they posted smells like bullshit. Do they really rely on the mail and a letter to start getting the ball rolling on visas for participating in their tournament? You can't email or fax it? There isn't a more streamlined process like a government agency website you can apply on? Whatever it is it has nothing to do with a letter getting lost in the mail or delayed in the mail. Perhaps China is just a bitch to work with on visa things. Perhaps if ESL covers flights whatever charter flying out of China very expensive. You literally can not digitize anything when it comes to visas. Doesn't matter what country, it doesn't fly. Fax, Email, etc, all no good. No websites. You should do a bit more research before calling something bullshit my dude. | ||
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Tommy131313
Germany150 Posts
On June 17 2023 17:49 Master of DalK wrote: You literally can not digitize anything when it comes to visas. Doesn't matter what country, it doesn't fly. Fax, Email, etc, all no good. No websites. You should do a bit more research before calling something bullshit my dude. That's it, exactly! ESL screwed up? Of course they did, big time! They acknowledged it and promised to do better next time and take into account the messy process of just-in-time visa application. And that's ALL they can reasonably do. Fixing the problem for the Summer Masters? I don't see how it could be done without doing further harm to the integrity of the tournament. This is f...ing sad, but it is as it is. Let's get over it and don't blame it on racism or intentional malevolence. Let's hope ESL finds some okayish way to compensate the players without passing on the black Peter to other players. | ||
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argonautdice
Canada2704 Posts
On June 17 2023 22:45 Tommy131313 wrote: That's it, exactly! ESL screwed up? Of course they did, big time! They acknowledged it and promised to do better next time and take into account the messy process of just-in-time visa application. And that's ALL they can reasonably do. Fixing the problem for the Summer Masters? I don't see how it could be done without doing further harm to the integrity of the tournament. This is f...ing sad, but it is as it is. Let's get over it and don't blame it on racism or intentional malevolence. Let's hope ESL finds some okayish way to compensate the players without passing on the black Peter to other players. Wonder if ESL could seed Oliveira and Coffee into the open bracket with expense paid at Atlanta, and of course if they qualify the regular way they can get placed at the higher seeding stage. It would be the best compensation imo. Oh, and obviously get their visas on time. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16006 Posts
It's their screw up, they have plenty of options for how to compensate for it, the only question remaining is whether people think that ESL should compensate them for it or not? I think it's obvious that they should. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On June 18 2023 00:06 Vindicare605 wrote: ESL has loads of options for how to make it up to Coffee and Oliveira. They SHOULD do something, or are people in this thread really saying that ESL shouldn't do anything to make up for the fact that they screwed over Oliveira and Coffee for the entire year? It's their screw up, they have plenty of options for how to compensate for it, the only question remaining is whether people think that ESL should compensate them for it or not? I think it's obvious that they should. Yeah, not giving them something to keep them in the circuit, both points wise and payout wise, would be total BS. IMO they should break their own rules and allow them to compete online, since it is ESL's screwup. If not that, the compensation needs to be really solid - especially when you consider Oliveira absolutely had a reasonable shot of getting decent money and EPT points from this. EDIT: To be crystal clear, I think an apology and `we'll do better in future' is absolutely not enough, and if that's where it's left it'll be quite a mark on the organization to me. | ||
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JJH777
United States4373 Posts
On June 17 2023 22:45 Tommy131313 wrote: That's it, exactly! ESL screwed up? Of course they did, big time! They acknowledged it and promised to do better next time and take into account the messy process of just-in-time visa application. And that's ALL they can reasonably do. Fixing the problem for the Summer Masters? I don't see how it could be done without doing further harm to the integrity of the tournament. This is f...ing sad, but it is as it is. Let's get over it and don't blame it on racism or intentional malevolence. Let's hope ESL finds some okayish way to compensate the players without passing on the black Peter to other players. Talking about the integrity of the tournament when a contender was DQ'd for reasons that weren't in his control. There's nothing worse for competitive integrity than players being DQ'd for reasons that don't have anything to do with the competition. It's not intentional malevolence but it is apathy because ESL really doesn't care about regions outside of EU and will always put in the least possible effort. | ||
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