EPTThat's a shame.
ESL Summer: Players, Brackets, Casters - Page 2
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4280 Posts
That's a shame. | ||
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JJH777
United States4420 Posts
On June 08 2023 07:14 Balnazza wrote: Please tell me you are not talking about GSL vs. the World '18, where Serral won 3-0 over Kelazhur and immediately after that destroyed Inno with the same score... But just to be sure: Just we from now on check for every player how they advanced through a tournament, just to check if their wins are "impressive" enough? I do think tournament wins should be weighted based on bracket difficulty and overall lineup difficulty yes. That's exactly why I think winning starleagues during the Kespa era is the most impressive result in SC2. And one of the many reasons I consider Maru the clear goat. Lineup and brackets were hard from the first qualifier until the final back then. Top players weren't 1k+ MMR ahead of the mid tier and another 500 ahead of the bottom. Every match was hard fought. | ||
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
On June 08 2023 14:34 JJH777 wrote: I do think tournament wins should be weighted based on bracket difficulty and overall lineup difficulty yes. That's exactly why I think winning starleagues during the Kespa era is the most impressive result in SC2. And one of the many reasons I consider Maru the clear goat. Lineup and brackets were hard from the first qualifier until the final back then. Top players weren't 1k+ MMR ahead of the mid tier and another 500 ahead of the bottom. Every match was hard fought. Lil bro is stuck in the past with lower skill games | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16089 Posts
On June 08 2023 07:14 Balnazza wrote: Please tell me you are not talking about GSL vs. the World '18, where Serral won 3-0 over Kelazhur and immediately after that destroyed Inno with the same score... But just to be sure: Just we from now on check for every player how they advanced through a tournament, just to check if their wins are "impressive" enough? People say Maru's WESG wasn't impressive because he only beat two top players in Serral and Dark. Why is it different for Serral? I thought as long as you beat some top players it doesn't matter if you had easy opponents in the first rounds? | ||
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Scarlett`
Korea (South)2417 Posts
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Glorfindelio
231 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1359 Posts
On June 08 2023 14:34 JJH777 wrote: I do think tournament wins should be weighted based on bracket difficulty and overall lineup difficulty yes. That's exactly why I think winning starleagues during the Kespa era is the most impressive result in SC2. And one of the many reasons I consider Maru the clear goat. Lineup and brackets were hard from the first qualifier until the final back then. Top players weren't 1k+ MMR ahead of the mid tier and another 500 ahead of the bottom. Every match was hard fought. Maru won SSL with a 3-0 over Leenock in the quarterfinals, who was the lowest rated player he could get. So I guess it wasn't that impressive of a win either? Lets face it: Not every tournament-run is comparable, but if you start that process, you can basically find something "negative" in every single tournament. Sometimes you get easier opponents. Or you lose somewhere in the group stage but recover. Is a run full of 3-0s more or less impressive than a run full of 3-2s? What is harder, being dominant or playing so many long matches and still come out ahead? Picking just one particular player and trying to find the bad spots in his runs and giving everyone else a pass is just bad faith. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16089 Posts
On June 08 2023 21:42 Balnazza wrote: Maru won SSL with a 3-0 over Leenock in the quarterfinals, who was the lowest rated player he could get. So I guess it wasn't that impressive of a win either? Lets face it: Not every tournament-run is comparable, but if you start that process, you can basically find something "negative" in every single tournament. Sometimes you get easier opponents. Or you lose somewhere in the group stage but recover. Is a run full of 3-0s more or less impressive than a run full of 3-2s? What is harder, being dominant or playing so many long matches and still come out ahead? Picking just one particular player and trying to find the bad spots in his runs and giving everyone else a pass is just bad faith. Yeah but you can see clear general trends that make certain tournaments harder to win than others. Tournaments like WESG or to some extent GSL vs the World are easier to win than IEM Katowice due to the number of top level players being limited and some weaker players being invited. And over time tournaments definitely got easier to win, just due to the player pool and number of championship contenders decreasing. Between 2013-2016 there were like 12 championship contenders and like 15-20 other players who could on a good day beat any player in the world. There were some Code A groups that were harder than todays ro16 groups for any tournament. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16089 Posts
Let's say there's a tournament with Serral, Dark, Maru and Creator. Creator beats Serral and then loses to Maru in the finals. Would that mean that Maru had an easy path because he avoided Serral? I don't think so as he beat the player that beat Serral, who on that day may have just been better than Serral. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1359 Posts
On June 08 2023 22:04 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah but you can see clear general trends that make certain tournaments harder to win than others. Tournaments like WESG or to some extent GSL vs the World are easier to win than IEM Katowice due to the number of top level players being limited and some weaker players being invited. And over time tournaments definitely got easier to win, just due to the player pool and number of championship contenders decreasing. Between 2013-2016 there were like 12 championship contenders and like 15-20 other players who could on a good day beat any player in the world. There were some Code A groups that were harder than todays ro16 groups for any tournament. I will agree that the competition has become less fearsome, while the overall skill-level (according to the likes of Rotterdam) improved massively. And I will definetly agree that not all tournaments are equally important. But again, if we start thinking in those categories, you can nitpick to an unreasonable degree. For example, if you say 2013-16 was the prime - then that means Maru winning 6SL isn't impressive, right? He hasn't won a single GSL in the timespan you declared as the prime, so he basically just won when the skill decreased, "the best of the rest". Now, my stance on Maru is pretty obvious, but even I wouldn't go that far, because it is just stupid. But if we pretend that there are massive drops in difficulty between years, then we have to see it that way. Oh and to you last point: I agree with you there aswell. A bracket-format will never declare "who is the best out of these 4/8/16" players, because most players in that bracket don't even play each other. It just decides who won the tournament and it is usually just pure ill-intensions to point the weaknesses in these runs out, while ignoring others. | ||
Poopi
France13018 Posts
As for the format, it is a bit stupid to see Maru meet a player as strong as Reynor so soon, but I guess Reynor underperformed and had a lower seed than expected? | ||
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tigera6
3515 Posts
On June 09 2023 00:18 Poopi wrote: Maru won starleagues during the most competitive era and was the best proleague player in that era as well, afaik. As for the format, it is a bit stupid to see Maru meet a player as strong as Reynor so soon, but I guess Reynor underperformed and had a lower seed than expected? Reynor replaced MaxPax but I guess they used his actual EPT points for the seeding, which is a top 8-EU ranking. Thats still higher rank than Solar/Gumiho while Maru has the 2nd highest EPT points overall. I guess there is a random process somewhere to mix thing up, but that still doesnt explain why we have a bracket of Scarlett (2nd NA), Solar (Combine standing), Byun and Bunny (top 4 KR). Meanwhile, we have Clem (top 4 EU), Cure (2nd KR), Oliveira (1st Asia and World Champ) and Gumiho (Combine standing) in another bracket. Would love to see the bracketology of ESL on this, or maybethey just put Maru and Serral on each side of the bracket and randomly draw everyone. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16089 Posts
On June 08 2023 23:32 Balnazza wrote: I will agree that the competition has become less fearsome, while the overall skill-level (according to the likes of Rotterdam) improved massively. And I will definetly agree that not all tournaments are equally important. But again, if we start thinking in those categories, you can nitpick to an unreasonable degree. For example, if you say 2013-16 was the prime - then that means Maru winning 6SL isn't impressive, right? He hasn't won a single GSL in the timespan you declared as the prime, so he basically just won when the skill decreased, "the best of the rest". Now, my stance on Maru is pretty obvious, but even I wouldn't go that far, because it is just stupid. But if we pretend that there are massive drops in difficulty between years, then we have to see it that way. Oh and to you last point: I agree with you there aswell. A bracket-format will never declare "who is the best out of these 4/8/16" players, because most players in that bracket don't even play each other. It just decides who won the tournament and it is usually just pure ill-intensions to point the weaknesses in these runs out, while ignoring others. Maru won OSL and SSL in that timespan which were basically like GSL, just with a different name (especially OSL which replaced GSL in the WCS circuit for that season). But yeah, I actually don't think the recent GSL win from Maru was that impressive. The 4-peat in 2018 when GSL was still very stacked, however, was extremely impressive. | ||
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tigera6
3515 Posts
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On June 08 2023 22:10 Charoisaur wrote: And to add on that train of thought, I don't think the specific path the player had should be that important, but just the overall bracket difficulty. Let's say there's a tournament with Serral, Dark, Maru and Creator. Creator beats Serral and then loses to Maru in the finals. Would that mean that Maru had an easy path because he avoided Serral? I don't think so as he beat the player that beat Serral, who on that day may have just been better than Serral. Don't think that's true, especially not in a different matchup. For sure don't think I'd have been equally impressed with Maru's run to the 2023 championship as I was with Oliveira's. The players you actually face matter. | ||
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Kreuger
Sweden988 Posts
Maybe a mod could edit the titel of the thread? | ||
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JJH777
United States4420 Posts
On June 08 2023 18:15 BelethielQT wrote: Lil bro is stuck in the past with lower skill games Skill level isn't even relevant to what I'm talking about. Regardless of whether skill level has gone up it was still harder to win tournaments when there were 100s of fulltime pros who were close in skills. Also this is in reply to other posts but there's a huge difference between getting an easy path because a "worse" player upset someone better than them vs the event itself simply having a weaker lineup mostly due to region locking where you're nearly guaranteed at least one weak opponent. | ||
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TossHeroes
281 Posts
On June 08 2023 04:50 JJH777 wrote: Every round of an event matters. Advancing over top players 5 times in a row is a lot more impressive than 3 times. If they’re the standard then that makes Maru’s first 4 GSL even less impressive than it already is. Maru r16 and r8 opponents are a joke compare to his peers | ||
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tigera6
3515 Posts
On June 09 2023 11:27 TossHeroes wrote: If they’re the standard then that makes Maru’s first 4 GSL even less impressive than it already is. Maru r16 and r8 opponents are a joke compare to his peers Gumiho/Dear/Classic/Zest was a joke in 2018-19? | ||
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