EPTJust make 1 or 2 base nydus, and 1 drop ovelord with 4-5 lings. Drop the lings first to distract, harass and then drop the nydus and protect it with the lings or distract the protoss so they dont seethe nydus, you'll never have to face carriers again.
5.0.11 Patch Released - Balance Changes
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
Just make 1 or 2 base nydus, and 1 drop ovelord with 4-5 lings. Drop the lings first to distract, harass and then drop the nydus and protect it with the lings or distract the protoss so they dont seethe nydus, you'll never have to face carriers again. | ||
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syndbg
43 Posts
On February 13 2023 00:43 [Phantom] wrote: Shameless Zergs complaining about carriers after they have been double nerfed. Just make 1 or 2 base nydus, and 1 drop ovelord with 4-5 lings. Drop the lings first to distract, harass and then drop the nydus and protect it with the lings or distract the protoss so they dont seethe nydus, you'll never have to face carriers again. Stop whining with your 3.4k metal league experience in every thread, please. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On February 13 2023 01:06 syndbg wrote: Stop whining with your 3.4k metal league experience in every thread, please. You don't understand, just 1 base nydus to counter the carriers. Ezpz | ||
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
On February 13 2023 01:06 syndbg wrote: Stop whining with your 3.4k metal league experience in every thread, please. I'm not in a metal league. Also I leave basically all pvps. I don't really care about mmr. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6260 Posts
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moonsjde
48 Posts
On February 13 2023 09:55 Azzur wrote: Imho, even though people complained that this patch did nothing to curb zerg dominance, I believe it did so in subtle ways and is a great patch! toss player and i'm reasonably okay with the patch. based on what i've seen in tournaments and my own experience the ravager and sentry changes subtly altered the early midgame dynamic in a way that does matter. it didn't make the matchup perfect by any means, and i still think toss's strengths should be taken out of air and put more into ground for better gameplay, but it's not a terrible patch | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3453 Posts
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ZeroByte13
775 Posts
- Serral was eliminated in ZvZ but didn't have any problems in ZvP or ZvT even vs really strong herO and Byun. - Dark was clearly shaken and not himself - he lost to Neeb, almost lost to Creator and was destroyed by herO who didn't even play that good in those series. I'm not sure Dark's performance is indicative of anything. - Reynor lost to a player who suddenly started playing like SC2 god (Oliveira) and who later destroyed herO and Maru. Before that he smashed his group full of P/T, but of course none of them were real top-player. - Solar and Ragnarok looked really good until they met their nemesis in Maru, where it's more of a mental thing than anything else. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16008 Posts
On February 13 2023 09:55 Azzur wrote: Imho, even though people complained that this patch did nothing to curb zerg dominance, I believe it did so in subtle ways and is a great patch! I don't think you can make any conclusions about balance from a single tournament because of bracket luck and players making individual mistakes. Keep in mind Maru avoided all the top Zergs and Time went 1-2 against Zergs this tournament. If Serral didn't leave so early and Reynor played game 4 a bit more methodically instead of throwing continous Ling Ultra armies into the meatgrinder we could've been looking at a ZvZ finals with everyone compkaining and taking it as proof Zerg is overpowered. Whether the game is balanced or not can only be said after a larger sample of tournaments but my gut feeling after watching the games says TvZ is slightly in favor of Zerg and TvP slightly in favor of terran. The few games we saw Broodlords they looked insane | ||
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Poopi
France12904 Posts
Similarly, Reynor is too one dimensional in ZvT late game and didn’t try to use broodlords until it was too late. I feel like we were close to another ZvZ finals in Serral vs Reynor but somehow it didn’t happen. With Dark going to the military service soon and Solar being too afraid of Maru, we probably won’t even see the TvZ lategame at highest level until DH:masters. | ||
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dysenterymd
1250 Posts
Maru playing late game TvZ against Dark/Reynor/Serral would have been great to see to better understand the patch, but due to brackets that didn't happen. EDIT: Hydras might also be too strong in PvZ, and there's a risk that play in the MU becomes either collosus or funky timings. I honestly wouldn't be opposed to some sort of storm buff that makes it more viable to go storm as your first form of splash but doesn't substantially change how storm works late game. That way viper timings from Zerg would be riskier, and more build order variety is always good. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
If a low level (lol) Terran player like TIME can up his game play and win convincingly against one of the best Zergs and the current best Protoss, you'd be pretty hard pressed to argue that the game is imbalanced. If it was imbalanced there would have been next to no way TIME could have made that run. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10363 Posts
On February 13 2023 22:26 dysenterymd wrote: Yeah, for me the only balance takeaway from the tournament is that Protoss is way too brittle against Terran pushes. Super charged battery isn't great design, but taking it away without larger compensation was a mistake. Maru playing late game TvZ against Dark/Reynor/Serral would have been great to see to better understand the patch, but due to brackets that didn't happen. EDIT: Hydras might also be too strong in PvZ, and there's a risk that play in the MU becomes either collosus or funky timings. I honestly wouldn't be opposed to some sort of storm buff that makes it more viable to go storm as your first form of splash but doesn't substantially change how storm works late game. That way viper timings from Zerg would be riskier, and more build order variety is always good. It really feels like Protoss could use a bit better defense. Zerg has queens to tank and transfuse, Terran has PFs and repair, and most of their units can be used very well defensively. I thought this before and still do, I think the Overcharge nerf was too much. I know Raven AA missile got nerfed, but it's offset a little cus Interference Missile got buffed because Raven is cheaper now for disabling. If you compare those changes to Protoss getting a Sentry that keeps up a little better with Zealots, faster OBS but much nerfed Overcharge, it doesn't seem equal. (Sentry movement is a nice buff but still tiny overall, and also it helps moreso with attacking than defending). Honestly, why couldn't Battery Overcharge have been compensated in another way, such as increasing the duration even by 1 single second? Or even increasing the range by 1? Just something to encourage it to be used in a more active and micro intensive way, such as fighting a bit with your army right outside your base to make use of the recharge, and to move away from it being something you use last second when the push is already at your base (which people don't like to play against/watch, and is the reason people didn't want it healing so fast and it being hard to outdamage). | ||
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Sogetsu
514 Posts
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Athenau
570 Posts
On February 13 2023 22:58 Beelzebub1 wrote: My take away is that balance looks pretty good, Protoss ground game seems soooo close to being where it needs to be, Ghosts don't seem to be much worse at killing Ultralisks, Cyclones got alot more usage, and the creep "nerf" was predictably useless. If a low level (lol) Terran player like TIME can up his game play and win convincingly against one of the best Zergs and the current best Protoss, you'd be pretty hard pressed to argue that the game is imbalanced. If it was imbalanced there would have been next to no way TIME could have made that run. Time didn't really win "convincingly" vs Reynor. It was a close series where Reynor lost an opportunity to close it out by headbutting ling-bane-ultra into tank-liberator-ghost-hellbat for way too long, in typical Reynor fashion. And Time is not "low-level", he's always been mechanically excellent, but his results have never reflected his skill. He practiced incredibly hard for this (12-15 hours a day is insane) and the stars aligned for him. Overall, I agree with Charoisaur, ZvT looks Zerg favored (though not unplayable), and TvP is strongly Terran favored (the battery nerf was too far). | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10363 Posts
On February 14 2023 00:23 Sogetsu wrote: Honestly, to everyone saying Overchard nerf was huge, yeah it is, build some more batteries, problem solved. It is not like Zerg has only 1 Queen and can deny any push, most of them spam them like Lings, and in most Cheese the Protoss do exactly that, spam Batteries with the push, but not for defense... like "Yeah I will try to Overcharge one Pylon and I will be fine" That's true, and makes me wonder if Batteries themselves could have a tiny buff, even if it was just like 5-10% better. Because that would be a way to offset the power of Overcharge to the plain Batteries themselves. Also, since Batteries now already have a mechanic where they start with less energy if built offensively, you can buff Batteries slightly without worrying. | ||
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moonsjde
48 Posts
On February 14 2023 00:23 Sogetsu wrote: Honestly, to everyone saying Overchard nerf was huge, yeah it is, build some more batteries, problem solved. It is not like Zerg has only 1 Queen and can deny any push, most of them spam them like Lings, and in most Cheese the Protoss do exactly that, spam Batteries with the push, but not for defense... like "Yeah I will try to Overcharge one Pylon and I will be fine" i think you're missing something critical about what makes overcharge effective. the healing rate (not the total shields healed, but how quickly they heal) is super important for keeping expensive units alive, and having extra batteries won't make a robo or stargate unit survive if the healing can't out-DPS your opponent's focus fire. extra batteries can provide longevity against extremely committed attacks with a lot of reinforcement, but they don't do anything to prevent something like a tank push from just bullying tech units or a nexus to death. this is where the "just one battery" meme comes from and why often pros don't care to build more than one per nexus - it's really specifically about the overcharge healing rate. the reason you build many batteries with cheese is because it extends the longevity of an attack which in theory extends your timing window i understand why people dislike super batteries and why they were nerfed, but it does create a hole in protoss's defensive power that can make the econ/army balancing act really difficult. toss needs something else to fill that defensive role that isn't a feelsbad for the opponent and perhaps rewards execution more than pressing a button. maybe something like batteries healing buildings faster than units so toss can take more advantage of backward positioning behind their buildings (which benefits both zerg and terran immensely in defensive fights and is supposed to be part of basic RTS tactics and defender's advantage) but can't simply stand forward and take an unfair fight? not sure, but there has to be a solution better than "build more batteries," which just encourages even less active play by toss. toss players WANT to be active in macro games, but there has to be an incentive for it! problem is people love to hate on turtling and toss deathballs but they also hate the things that discourage those playstyles, the things that allow toss to split army and harass. people forget that defensive tools are not just for turtling, they also enable counterplay. people bitch about prisms, recall, batteries, but without those tools protoss is a race of slow, expensive units that have to be positioned perfectly 100% of the time or a good opponent will very rapidly use faster units to find superior value. so either allow protoss to have the "cheats" everyone hates playing against or substantially alter the lower tech units to be faster and more efficient when actively microed. for my money i would prefer taking power out of high tech units and putting it into stuff like gateway/immortal and phoenixes, all of which are widely considered the most mechanically fun units toss has, but it has to be one way or the other. in a game as fast as SC2 you can't just click your way out of the limitation that unit speed puts on your micro potential. this is a huge reason mech struggles to be relevant and a common complaint from mech players as well. i get that "big giant laser robots and technology" is part of the assumed identity of the race, but if you ask me it's more important for matchups to be fun on both sides than it is to get the "flavor win" of carriers and colossus being core units. frankly if you want to talk about flavor i think the advanced technology race should be the one with scans and sensor towers and terran should probably have stuff like observers, but that's stepping out of matchup balance and into major redesigns that will never happen | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2394 Posts
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TurtleFish
11 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/dEuhS81.jpg) Protoss' only representative in the balance council (Harstem) is Reynor's bi*tch. Are you really that surprised Zerg keeps getting buffed every patch? | ||
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ishitlaxkar1010
1 Post
User was banned for this post. | ||
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