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5.0.11 Patch Released - Balance Changes

Forum Index > SC2 General
223 CommentsPost a Reply
1 7 8 9 10 11 12 All last
[Phantom]
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
Mexico2170 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-12 15:44:02
February 12 2023 15:43 GMT
#205
Shameless Zergs complaining about carriers after they have been double nerfed.

Just make 1 or 2 base nydus, and 1 drop ovelord with 4-5 lings. Drop the lings first to distract, harass and then drop the nydus and protect it with the lings or distract the protoss so they dont seethe nydus, you'll never have to face carriers again.
WriterTeamLiquid Staff writer since 2014 @Mortal_Phantom
syndbg
Profile Joined February 2018
43 Posts
February 12 2023 16:06 GMT
#206
On February 13 2023 00:43 [Phantom] wrote:
Shameless Zergs complaining about carriers after they have been double nerfed.

Just make 1 or 2 base nydus, and 1 drop ovelord with 4-5 lings. Drop the lings first to distract, harass and then drop the nydus and protect it with the lings or distract the protoss so they dont seethe nydus, you'll never have to face carriers again.

Stop whining with your 3.4k metal league experience in every thread, please.
InfCereal
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada1759 Posts
February 12 2023 16:07 GMT
#207
On February 13 2023 01:06 syndbg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2023 00:43 [Phantom] wrote:
Shameless Zergs complaining about carriers after they have been double nerfed.

Just make 1 or 2 base nydus, and 1 drop ovelord with 4-5 lings. Drop the lings first to distract, harass and then drop the nydus and protect it with the lings or distract the protoss so they dont seethe nydus, you'll never have to face carriers again.

Stop whining with your 3.4k metal league experience in every thread, please.


You don't understand, just 1 base nydus to counter the carriers.

Ezpz
Cereal
[Phantom]
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
Mexico2170 Posts
February 12 2023 16:10 GMT
#208
On February 13 2023 01:06 syndbg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2023 00:43 [Phantom] wrote:
Shameless Zergs complaining about carriers after they have been double nerfed.

Just make 1 or 2 base nydus, and 1 drop ovelord with 4-5 lings. Drop the lings first to distract, harass and then drop the nydus and protect it with the lings or distract the protoss so they dont seethe nydus, you'll never have to face carriers again.

Stop whining with your 3.4k metal league experience in every thread, please.


I'm not in a metal league. Also I leave basically all pvps. I don't really care about mmr.
WriterTeamLiquid Staff writer since 2014 @Mortal_Phantom
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
February 13 2023 00:55 GMT
#209
Imho, even though people complained that this patch did nothing to curb zerg dominance, I believe it did so in subtle ways and is a great patch!
moonsjde
Profile Joined October 2022
48 Posts
February 13 2023 03:53 GMT
#210
On February 13 2023 09:55 Azzur wrote:
Imho, even though people complained that this patch did nothing to curb zerg dominance, I believe it did so in subtle ways and is a great patch!

toss player and i'm reasonably okay with the patch. based on what i've seen in tournaments and my own experience the ravager and sentry changes subtly altered the early midgame dynamic in a way that does matter. it didn't make the matchup perfect by any means, and i still think toss's strengths should be taken out of air and put more into ground for better gameplay, but it's not a terrible patch
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3362 Posts
February 13 2023 12:07 GMT
#211
No, it is a shit patch. Because it weakened Protoss even more than it already was. Terran is in even more of an allin position, even though that position have been buffed. It's still not a style every Terran wants to play every game (or so I hope). And Zerg will be invincible when they get to late game due to OP BL's and Infestors (now without an answer).
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
ZeroByte13
Profile Joined March 2022
761 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-13 12:22:16
February 13 2023 12:19 GMT
#212
After Katowice I still don't know what to think about patch influence on the results.

- Serral was eliminated in ZvZ but didn't have any problems in ZvP or ZvT even vs really strong herO and Byun.

- Dark was clearly shaken and not himself - he lost to Neeb, almost lost to Creator and was destroyed by herO who didn't even play that good in those series. I'm not sure Dark's performance is indicative of anything.

- Reynor lost to a player who suddenly started playing like SC2 god (Oliveira) and who later destroyed herO and Maru. Before that he smashed his group full of P/T, but of course none of them were real top-player.

- Solar and Ragnarok looked really good until they met their nemesis in Maru, where it's more of a mental thing than anything else.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15919 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-13 12:24:35
February 13 2023 12:24 GMT
#213
On February 13 2023 09:55 Azzur wrote:
Imho, even though people complained that this patch did nothing to curb zerg dominance, I believe it did so in subtle ways and is a great patch!

I don't think you can make any conclusions about balance from a single tournament because of bracket luck and players making individual mistakes. Keep in mind Maru avoided all the top Zergs and Time went 1-2 against Zergs this tournament. If Serral didn't leave so early and Reynor played game 4 a bit more methodically instead of throwing continous Ling Ultra armies into the meatgrinder we could've been looking at a ZvZ finals with everyone compkaining and taking it as proof Zerg is overpowered.

Whether the game is balanced or not can only be said after a larger sample of tournaments but my gut feeling after watching the games says TvZ is slightly in favor of Zerg and TvP slightly in favor of terran. The few games we saw Broodlords they looked insane
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12790 Posts
February 13 2023 12:49 GMT
#214
Yeah, it looks like zerg is strong in both matchups while terran seems to have more dangerous mid game timings versus protoss because of the battery nerf. However we could not see herO vs top form Dark, or herO vs Serral in an elimination series.

Similarly, Reynor is too one dimensional in ZvT late game and didn’t try to use broodlords until it was too late. I feel like we were close to another ZvZ finals in Serral vs Reynor but somehow it didn’t happen. With Dark going to the military service soon and Solar being too afraid of Maru, we probably won’t even see the TvZ lategame at highest level until DH:masters.
WriterMaru
dysenterymd
Profile Joined January 2019
1199 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-13 14:14:17
February 13 2023 13:26 GMT
#215
Yeah, for me the only balance takeaway from the tournament is that Protoss is way too brittle against Terran pushes. Super charged battery isn't great design, but taking it away without larger compensation was a mistake.

Maru playing late game TvZ against Dark/Reynor/Serral would have been great to see to better understand the patch, but due to brackets that didn't happen.

EDIT: Hydras might also be too strong in PvZ, and there's a risk that play in the MU becomes either collosus or funky timings. I honestly wouldn't be opposed to some sort of storm buff that makes it more viable to go storm as your first form of splash but doesn't substantially change how storm works late game. That way viper timings from Zerg would be riskier, and more build order variety is always good.
Serral | Inno | sOs | soO | Has | Classic
Beelzebub1
Profile Joined May 2015
1004 Posts
February 13 2023 13:58 GMT
#216
My take away is that balance looks pretty good, Protoss ground game seems soooo close to being where it needs to be, Ghosts don't seem to be much worse at killing Ultralisks, Cyclones got alot more usage, and the creep "nerf" was predictably useless.

If a low level (lol) Terran player like TIME can up his game play and win convincingly against one of the best Zergs and the current best Protoss, you'd be pretty hard pressed to argue that the game is imbalanced. If it was imbalanced there would have been next to no way TIME could have made that run.

Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10325 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-13 15:02:26
February 13 2023 15:02 GMT
#217
On February 13 2023 22:26 dysenterymd wrote:
Yeah, for me the only balance takeaway from the tournament is that Protoss is way too brittle against Terran pushes. Super charged battery isn't great design, but taking it away without larger compensation was a mistake.

Maru playing late game TvZ against Dark/Reynor/Serral would have been great to see to better understand the patch, but due to brackets that didn't happen.

EDIT: Hydras might also be too strong in PvZ, and there's a risk that play in the MU becomes either collosus or funky timings. I honestly wouldn't be opposed to some sort of storm buff that makes it more viable to go storm as your first form of splash but doesn't substantially change how storm works late game. That way viper timings from Zerg would be riskier, and more build order variety is always good.


It really feels like Protoss could use a bit better defense.
Zerg has queens to tank and transfuse, Terran has PFs and repair, and most of their units can be used very well defensively.

I thought this before and still do, I think the Overcharge nerf was too much. I know Raven AA missile got nerfed, but it's offset a little cus Interference Missile got buffed because Raven is cheaper now for disabling. If you compare those changes to Protoss getting a Sentry that keeps up a little better with Zealots, faster OBS but much nerfed Overcharge, it doesn't seem equal. (Sentry movement is a nice buff but still tiny overall, and also it helps moreso with attacking than defending).

Honestly, why couldn't Battery Overcharge have been compensated in another way, such as increasing the duration even by 1 single second? Or even increasing the range by 1? Just something to encourage it to be used in a more active and micro intensive way, such as fighting a bit with your army right outside your base to make use of the recharge, and to move away from it being something you use last second when the push is already at your base (which people don't like to play against/watch, and is the reason people didn't want it healing so fast and it being hard to outdamage).
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Sogetsu
Profile Joined July 2011
514 Posts
February 13 2023 15:23 GMT
#218
Honestly, to everyone saying Overchard nerf was huge, yeah it is, build some more batteries, problem solved. It is not like Zerg has only 1 Queen and can deny any push, most of them spam them like Lings, and in most Cheese the Protoss do exactly that, spam Batteries with the push, but not for defense... like "Yeah I will try to Overcharge one Pylon and I will be fine"
Raptor: "Es hora de salvar a los E-Sports..." http://i3.minus.com/ibtne3liprtByB.png
Athenau
Profile Joined March 2015
569 Posts
February 13 2023 17:37 GMT
#219
On February 13 2023 22:58 Beelzebub1 wrote:
My take away is that balance looks pretty good, Protoss ground game seems soooo close to being where it needs to be, Ghosts don't seem to be much worse at killing Ultralisks, Cyclones got alot more usage, and the creep "nerf" was predictably useless.

If a low level (lol) Terran player like TIME can up his game play and win convincingly against one of the best Zergs and the current best Protoss, you'd be pretty hard pressed to argue that the game is imbalanced. If it was imbalanced there would have been next to no way TIME could have made that run.


Time didn't really win "convincingly" vs Reynor. It was a close series where Reynor lost an opportunity to close it out by headbutting ling-bane-ultra into tank-liberator-ghost-hellbat for way too long, in typical Reynor fashion.

And Time is not "low-level", he's always been mechanically excellent, but his results have never reflected his skill.

He practiced incredibly hard for this (12-15 hours a day is insane) and the stars aligned for him.

Overall, I agree with Charoisaur, ZvT looks Zerg favored (though not unplayable), and TvP is strongly Terran favored (the battery nerf was too far).

Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10325 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-13 17:58:28
February 13 2023 17:51 GMT
#220
On February 14 2023 00:23 Sogetsu wrote:
Honestly, to everyone saying Overchard nerf was huge, yeah it is, build some more batteries, problem solved. It is not like Zerg has only 1 Queen and can deny any push, most of them spam them like Lings, and in most Cheese the Protoss do exactly that, spam Batteries with the push, but not for defense... like "Yeah I will try to Overcharge one Pylon and I will be fine"


That's true, and makes me wonder if Batteries themselves could have a tiny buff, even if it was just like 5-10% better.
Because that would be a way to offset the power of Overcharge to the plain Batteries themselves.
Also, since Batteries now already have a mechanic where they start with less energy if built offensively, you can buff Batteries slightly without worrying.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
moonsjde
Profile Joined October 2022
48 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-14 04:39:24
February 14 2023 03:38 GMT
#221
On February 14 2023 00:23 Sogetsu wrote:
Honestly, to everyone saying Overchard nerf was huge, yeah it is, build some more batteries, problem solved. It is not like Zerg has only 1 Queen and can deny any push, most of them spam them like Lings, and in most Cheese the Protoss do exactly that, spam Batteries with the push, but not for defense... like "Yeah I will try to Overcharge one Pylon and I will be fine"

i think you're missing something critical about what makes overcharge effective. the healing rate (not the total shields healed, but how quickly they heal) is super important for keeping expensive units alive, and having extra batteries won't make a robo or stargate unit survive if the healing can't out-DPS your opponent's focus fire. extra batteries can provide longevity against extremely committed attacks with a lot of reinforcement, but they don't do anything to prevent something like a tank push from just bullying tech units or a nexus to death. this is where the "just one battery" meme comes from and why often pros don't care to build more than one per nexus - it's really specifically about the overcharge healing rate. the reason you build many batteries with cheese is because it extends the longevity of an attack which in theory extends your timing window

i understand why people dislike super batteries and why they were nerfed, but it does create a hole in protoss's defensive power that can make the econ/army balancing act really difficult. toss needs something else to fill that defensive role that isn't a feelsbad for the opponent and perhaps rewards execution more than pressing a button. maybe something like batteries healing buildings faster than units so toss can take more advantage of backward positioning behind their buildings (which benefits both zerg and terran immensely in defensive fights and is supposed to be part of basic RTS tactics and defender's advantage) but can't simply stand forward and take an unfair fight? not sure, but there has to be a solution better than "build more batteries," which just encourages even less active play by toss. toss players WANT to be active in macro games, but there has to be an incentive for it!

problem is people love to hate on turtling and toss deathballs but they also hate the things that discourage those playstyles, the things that allow toss to split army and harass. people forget that defensive tools are not just for turtling, they also enable counterplay. people bitch about prisms, recall, batteries, but without those tools protoss is a race of slow, expensive units that have to be positioned perfectly 100% of the time or a good opponent will very rapidly use faster units to find superior value. so either allow protoss to have the "cheats" everyone hates playing against or substantially alter the lower tech units to be faster and more efficient when actively microed. for my money i would prefer taking power out of high tech units and putting it into stuff like gateway/immortal and phoenixes, all of which are widely considered the most mechanically fun units toss has, but it has to be one way or the other. in a game as fast as SC2 you can't just click your way out of the limitation that unit speed puts on your micro potential. this is a huge reason mech struggles to be relevant and a common complaint from mech players as well. i get that "big giant laser robots and technology" is part of the assumed identity of the race, but if you ask me it's more important for matchups to be fun on both sides than it is to get the "flavor win" of carriers and colossus being core units. frankly if you want to talk about flavor i think the advanced technology race should be the one with scans and sensor towers and terran should probably have stuff like observers, but that's stepping out of matchup balance and into major redesigns that will never happen
Turbovolver
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia2393 Posts
February 14 2023 04:19 GMT
#222
Whiners in shambles. You love to see it.
The original Bogus fan.
TurtleFish
Profile Joined December 2022
11 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-14 05:37:07
February 14 2023 05:34 GMT
#223
[image loading]

Protoss' only representative in the balance council (Harstem) is Reynor's bi*tch. Are you really that surprised Zerg keeps getting buffed every patch?
ishitlaxkar1010
Profile Joined August 2024
1 Post
Last Edited: 2024-08-21 09:24:19
August 21 2024 08:50 GMT
#224
Bot edit.

User was banned for this post.
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