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I was thinking there could be an optional indicator that players could turn on to display how much range a unit has. If the player has this on, then when the player selects a unit, then a circle will appear around the unit showing how far it can shoot (like how pylon power range is displayed).
This would only work if a single unit is selected, and if some option is toggled/some button is pressed. Obviously, people would keep it off most of the time, but it would be useful even in pro matches when you can see where to place dragoons to hit depots or exactly where to siege tanks to be in range of key areas.
Furthermore there could be another circle to show unit vision range, but this should be kinda obvious and less important anyway (except with maybe tanks since they shoot farther than they can see).
This would help newbs be more familiar with the game, yet it also has some forseeable uses at higher level play.
People might claim this noobifies the game, but it makes such a small impact to actual gameplay, since most good players have an extremely good idea of how far their units shoot anyway.
Thoughts/comments?
Mandatory SC2 thread poll:
Poll: Range indicator a good idea?
(Vote): yes, cool idea
(Vote): no, bad reason (specify)
(Vote): I don't care, FOR THE OVERMIND!
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as long as it can be turned on and off;/ But i think it's sorta unnecessary.
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Canada7170 Posts
I say togglable only in campaign, since by multiplayer, people should have enough shkill to be able to judge correctly. But i don't think it is needed at all.
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range is usually visualized as a circumference of a circle, not a full circle, which is just as helpful but less cluttering.
TA would show those circles for all selected units. Since unit types had wildly varying ranges, up to several screens, it was probably more needed there. In BW, the only cases where it might be useful are tank vs tank fights, and reaver vs static defense. More rarely, ranged dragoons vs range 5 bunkers, though trial-and-error works just as well in that specific case.
I don't care if they add it
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You can see range of the Tank in a Siege mode at the Terran Gameplay Video. That's a good thing and obviously not all units need that.
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So many people say that they want such-and-such a feature as a toggleable option, but unless it's a few menus deep, more than one or two toggleable options will clutter the UI. This one in particular seems pretty useless. Knowing exactly how far a unit shoots is a skill you have to learn through practice. A decent player knows how to set up siege tanks exactly in range, then scan and have them shoot when they gain vision, killing their opponent's tanks before they shoot back. I see no reason to take another skill out of the game. If you want it an option in single player, so you can learn their ranges, that's fine.
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
I voted no, because it will dumb down the game.
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We get you're all rough and tough BW experts. Okay. I don't see how firing circles can impede gameplay, but I do see how they can enchance it. Yes.
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On September 30 2007 01:27 Stegosaur wrote:
I voted no, because it will dumb down the game.
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This is fucking hilarious. Has any one of you ever used the phrases "dumb-down" or "newbify" outside of SCII discussions? I mean, how can you "dumb-down" a toaster? You can't, you can make it easier to use. Whatever. Snobs.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
you can dumb down chess and make it tictactoe.
optional feature maybe, but then it makes appreciating progames harder for the casual fans.
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You can dumb-down IQ and make it post count. 
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
doesn't quite work that way.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
anyway, point is, some people think figuring out the range the hard way is an enjoyable part of the game. if you treat it instrumentally then thing doesn't work out the same.
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I say that range should be more of instinctual thing. I mean, most players will probably eventually end up with the ability to think, "ok, so the marine has about this range on the screen", and will be able to make an estimate range which will be good enough to battle with. Also, if you have 100 units, the range circles will be way too cluttered.
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On September 30 2007 01:44 oneofthem wrote:
anyway, point is, some people think figuring out the range the hard way is an enjoyable part of the game. if you treat it instrumentally then thing doesn't work out the same.
This is a matter of habit: in other games, HP and damage points have to be figured out instinctively, yet making it so in SCII would cause a mass TL suicide. Any element of chance or luck (such as hostile creeps or weather effects) is frowned upon. No, SC is a very precise, very mathematical game, which allows progamers to kill 500 Sunkens with two marines and a medic. That's what makes people compare it to chess and that's why I want to leave nothing "under the hood", from range to rate of fire.
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I can get used to the "game's in pre-alpha" but that "it will dumb down the game" is way too much to stand...
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my beef with the phrase "dumb-down" is that it implies somehow there is intellectual prowess behind the ability to, for instance, select a few buildings and build from them very fast, compared with the "dumbed down" version using MBS. It's derogatory - implying MBS is made especially for idiots, or something, which is utter nonsense. Skill != Intelligence. You need skill where your general intelligence alone cannot cope.
In BW you need lots of skill because it goes much faster than you can keep track of with analytical thought only. So you start to notice patterns, memorize them, practice, and develop skills. As you get more skilled, you use your intelligence less, not more, for handling anything heading your way in the game. Of course, vs a similarly skilled person, the decision-making remains a large factor, but vs a less skilled player you can win almost without thinking, which is in correspondence with my main point.
OMG did I just start an MBS war? oh I forgot to add that 0.999........ != 1.
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
Stop being so fucking anal about it. The guy asked a question and I replied. I think giving people lots of help playing the game equals dumbing it down, because it takes away from things you can figure out yourself.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On September 30 2007 02:03 Chodorkovskiy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2007 01:44 oneofthem wrote:
anyway, point is, some people think figuring out the range the hard way is an enjoyable part of the game. if you treat it instrumentally then thing doesn't work out the same. This is a matter of habit: in other games, HP and damage points have to be figured out instinctively, yet making it so in SCII would cause a mass TL suicide. Any element of chance or luck (such as hostile creeps or weather effects) is frowned upon. No, SC is a very precise, very mathematical game, which allows progamers to kill 500 Sunkens with two marines and a medic. That's what makes people compare it to chess and that's why I want to leave nothing "under the hood", from range to rate of fire. these affect different areas of gameplay. im not going to spend too much time on this, but if you want to support the idea, you need to argue with full awareness of the impact of such changes on gameplay experience of different people. for this, a simple analogy to a different aspect of the game iwth potentially different impacts is only conveying your own sentiments, that you think these impacts are similar. it is not a proper discussion to only tell your side of the story.
the precision of sc is not from 'hp and damage shown.' rather it is in the simplicity of the system. 40=5x8 etc. if sc had probabilistic damage, which tanks and splash damage sometimes do, the numbering becomes useless. see warcraft 3's range of damage and bewildering armor types.
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The only thing i know the range for is tank, and thats probably the only thing I'll ever care for.
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As long as it doesn't clutter the interface (Make it like under gameplay options in the menu), I don't see the harm it could do.
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Maybe this should be implemented in a tutorial part of the game or the early missions :}
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On September 30 2007 01:28 Chodorkovskiy wrote:
We get you're all rough and tough BW experts. Okay. I don't see how firing circles can impede gameplay, but I do see how they can enchance it. Yes.
Don't be retarded, remember your units like you do in any other game and np.
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Snet
United States3573 Posts
I don't' like the idea of this. Knowing something like that should be something you earn through experience.
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United States12237 Posts
It's not going to greatly affect anything, so there's no harm in adding it. There is some degree of skill involved in always deploying your tanks at maximum range, or placing them so that their range extends over an entire chokepoint, but a visual range indicator wouldn't diminish that skill too much.
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The word dumb down and nubify is thrown away far too much in this community. You guys honestly think this will somehow make the game soooo much easier to play, or that newbie friend you stomp on to get an ego boost, will he somehow magically be able to beat you if you implement this feature? This feature is a convenience thing, just like shift queuing, but far less important, maybe it can play a role or two during the course of a match. Course with tanks it's very beneficial.
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On September 30 2007 03:18 Stegosaur wrote:
Stop being so fucking anal about it. The guy asked a question and I replied. I think giving people lots of help playing the game equals dumbing it down, because it takes away from things you can figure out yourself.
I made this reply because this isn't an isolated incident... in some other thread I read not so long ago, someone said something like "noobs don't use deception, they can't even comprehend it" reinforcing the very stupid thought that SC skill = intelligence. So basically, Noob = idiot, Pro = genius, and therefore better UI = dumbing down the game, so the idiots can play.
By the way, it's possible to show those circles only if the player holds a key, such as tab. That way it won't unnecessarily clutter the screen.
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NO, this is part of the spatial recogonition skills an advanced gamer learns.
close thread.
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I'm seriously laughing so hard at this thread. You guys are so ridiculous. hahah.
o noes we don't use a cork as the ball in table tennis anymore the skill is gooone  these paddles now have dimples that make getting spin easier? all the skill gone.
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For the things that matters (Turrets, tanks and other deployables) Its dumb not to have this in, for mobile units it isnt needed though.
The reason its dumb not to have this in is beacuse technically a person shouldnt have to experiment to learn how far units shoot, just like they shouldnt have to experiment to learn how much damage the units does or how much health they have.
Hiding information about the units is dumb. Then we could as well hide the resource count and the supply count, since skilled players should know how much they have already? And if we hide the health of all the units and energy it would require a lot of skill to know wich templars got the enregy to cast and wich to merge, or when to repair the bunkers etc.
But generally you shouldnt hide information about the players units unless you want to hide imbalance from him and create a lot of rumors on what is imba.
On September 30 2007 02:13 EmS.Radagast wrote:
oh I forgot to add that 0.999........ != 1.
Depends on the situation. If we go theoretically they are not equal, but practically they are since there is no way you can find the difference or any situation were the difference would matter.
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its not hiding information, its just another small aspect to be learned that adds to the depth of the game.
like a year or 2 ago, a replay of boxer vs some mediocre terran came out and boxer had a small group of tanks and just kept inching forward, siegeing in tank range but out of vision range and floating a rax forward so hed kill the other guys sieged tanks without taking a shot.
add range indicator and that wouldnt be cool/impressive, it wouldve been something standard done since the game was released.
dumbing-down does not refer to intelligence, its a phrase used with the common meaning of 'making things easier'. making things easier makes the game less competetive because if any random idiot can do something its not impressive.
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Meh range is easy to determine after only a little experience.
You'll only be annoyed by the indicator everytime you click a unit later on.
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Depends on the situation. If we go theoretically they are not equal, but practically they are since there is no way you can find the difference or any situation were the difference would matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999...
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On September 29 2007 23:49 mikeymoo wrote:
I say togglable only in campaign, since by multiplayer, people should have enough shkill to be able to judge correctly. But i don't think it is needed at all.
I agree totally.
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having the vision range of detectors shown would be really useful for (stopping) lurker/dt
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I sure could use it when building sunkens when Im being bunker rushed... but I think i could learn to estimate that on my own with just a LITTLE bit more experience. Only that everyone I play tend to fastexpand these days.
I'm not sure if it is a good idea, since it probably is easy to implement it could be worth trying for blizzard.
I think however that it is not worth it. The few times it would actually be useful would not be worth the extra buttoncombination you would have to invent for it. And it would potentially look too cluttery. it is allready close to the limit sometimes with all the grids and things when you are building or making pylons imo.
and from wikipedia:
the question of 0.999… proved such a popular topic in the first seven years of Blizzard Entertainment's Battle.net forums that the company's president, Mike Morhaime, announced at a press conference on April 1, 2004 that it is 1:
We are very excited to close the book on this subject once and for all. We've witnessed the heartache and concern over whether .999~ does or does not equal 1, and we're proud that the following proof finally and conclusively addresses the issue for our customers.[43]
Blizzard's subsequent press release offers two proofs, based on limits and multiplication by 10.
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
On September 30 2007 06:42 quasi -QS- wrote:I'm seriously laughing so hard at this thread. You guys are so ridiculous. hahah. o noes we don't use a cork as the ball in table tennis anymore the skill is gooone these paddles now have dimples that make getting spin easier? all the skill gone.
Maybe you should register on a tabletennis forum instead :<
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On September 30 2007 06:25 CharlieMurphy wrote:
NO, this is part of the spatial recogonition skills an advanced gamer learns.
close thread.
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Although the addition of a range indicator wouldn't take anything away from the game other than the use of estimation, it shouldn't be added for two reasons.
It doesn't really add much. Even if it is added, and the newbs can see how far a marine, hydra, tank etc. can shoot, once they know the range estimation, they would just ignore the circle, and it would occasionally get in the way of seeing something if it sticks out.
Also, say you select twelve dragoons. All of a sudden you have twelve circles, and all of the intersections would make it a tad cluttered. And if the circles weren't added in, it would still be easy enough to tell where you should be to hit. The only unit that would be slightly hard would be the siege tank, only because it's range is farther than its vision, so you would need to extend its vision to know its true range.
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Well, i think that most here dont know how this is handled in most games.
Normally you have circles around the ghost images of turrets you place or other imobile weapons to show the area were it can shoot. In most games(Asie from TA/Supcom) you dont see any area around mobile units or turrets unless you select the turrets or have a ghost image of a turret selected.
This doesnt clutter the system, this is easy to implement, this is very intuitive so tere is really no drawbacks to it. Btw, you dont see enemy turrets range usually, to see it you will need toselect a worker, select a turret and hover it over th enemy turret since they have equal range you can easily determine their range.
And from the videos weve seen this is th system blizzard uses.
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It could work for some lowly newbies, which is good, and I don't think it will affect very good players at all.
The best use, would be imo, when the game commentator uses it in different occasion during a match. (ie two passing workers, the commentator would know if they saw each other, assaulting a bunker with goons (or some equivalent of this) etc.
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works best on static units really...
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I say no, just because one of the greatest things you see (especially in TvT) is how units are set up sometimes to JUST outside your range, and within theirs. A good example is siege tanks. Just watching the actual starcraft replays of XellOs games from BlizzCon makes me admire how pro some of these people are, having siege tanks perfectly set up to the perfect limit without range indicators.
If everyone were able to do this without having to have been familiar with the game, might take away from the pro scene, IMO, and I wouldnt end up admiring progamers for these small things like how perfectly units are set up to take advantage of their range, without the use of indicators.
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On September 30 2007 18:50 minus_human wrote:
It could work for some lowly newbies, which is good, and I don't think it will affect very good players at all.
The best use, would be imo, when the game commentator uses it in different occasion during a match. (ie two passing workers, the commentator would know if they saw each other, assaulting a bunker with goons (or some equivalent of this) etc.
ya, i like the idea of giving obs range vision
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For buildings, yeah sure. It allows weaker players to accurately place their defenses. Stronger players arent going to need the circles and the advantage that it gives to your op is soo insignificant that it shouldnt effect the outcome of who wins. For units it becomes a little different and I think it should be left only for static defenses
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The game needs to require more skill not less. We already know there are going to be lots of areas where less skill is required. So I say with range finding we take the opportunity to add some skill to the game of SC2.
And we know everyone loves sniping. Snipers have to judge the distance to the enemy and time their shot with any movements such as breathing and heartbeat, as well as compensate for wind. I think we should make players have to meet the same standards when firing upon the enemies. They should have to individually order each shot, targeting where they think their unit should aim, but wind (which will vary) and breathing monitors will display in the upper left corner, and the shot will fall so they will need to aim a little past the enemy and to the left or right as wind requires, and time it with the heartbeat and breathing accordingly. This would bring some skill back to SC2.
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I don't have an opinion. I will take what Blizzard gives me and thank them for their work. If you are perfect in every way you can crticize
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I was thinking about this a while ago aswell, range indicator, it would be a cool graphic thing. But I would much rather have it as something that goes into the "feeling skill" pool 
Feel free to add it in the singleplayer/observer mode though.. i love single player
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I think its a good idea....it will only make micro that much more fast and furious.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On October 01 2007 00:23 lugggy wrote:
The game needs to require more skill not less. We already know there are going to be lots of areas where less skill is required. So I say with range finding we take the opportunity to add some skill to the game of SC2.
And we know everyone loves sniping. Snipers have to judge the distance to the enemy and time their shot with any movements such as breathing and heartbeat, as well as compensate for wind. I think we should make players have to meet the same standards when firing upon the enemies. They should have to individually order each shot, targeting where they think their unit should aim, but wind (which will vary) and breathing monitors will display in the upper left corner, and the shot will fall so they will need to aim a little past the enemy and to the left or right as wind requires, and time it with the heartbeat and breathing accordingly. This would bring some skill back to SC2.
-_-
i'm so sick of people giving examples that are soooo over the top to try and support their point
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I think it is a good idea and would, when made toggleable, make for a nice way to see how your armies are faring in a battle and where units can be maneuvered to maximize their potential.
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EPT
