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On June 20 2022 23:54 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2022 22:05 EndingLife wrote:On June 20 2022 03:13 Vindicare605 wrote:
Random has been the same since Starcraft 1 first went live on battle.net.
It's not a viable option at pro levels (and never has been) which means it is not an actual advantage on ladder either if the opponent is skilled.
Whining about Random is just that, whining. There is absolutely zero reason to get rid of something that has worked the same way for over 20 years just because you lost a ladder match. Flash played random in recent Brood War tourney. Agreed, whining about random is complete nonsense. Flash smashing face with Random in ASL and pulling off cute tricks that astounded Zerg and Protoss pros (eg reaver micro) was one of the glorious sights in recent BW history. Peak SC2 would be two Random pros facing off in Blizzcon finals. No player can lay claim as a true GOAT without playing well with Random. And yes, I'm saying that not purely as a joke...
I've always said RvR is the most purest form of Brood War. Apparently the same would apply for SC2.
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how many tournaments has random won? if it was OP, someone would've abused it...
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On June 21 2022 02:26 bulldozer06701 wrote:
I don't like it when Random players announce their race. The mystery advantage is the best thing about playing Random.
In my experience they lie about their race at least 1 out of 10 times, so you can't really trust them enough to change your opening based on what they said. For example when a barcode Random tells their race it is almost obvious they are lying.
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I disagree that random should be removed from competitive matchmaking. I do think it could be improved though.
I definitely agree with an earlier suggestion that the game should roll your race as soon as you enter the matchmaking queue so you can get matched with someone that has similar MMR to the race you're playing. Playing someone that is either way better or way worse than you because there's a big MMR gap between a random player's best and worst races leads to one-sided and unhelpful games if either player is interested in learning/improving.
Someone also suggested showing the race the random player rolled on the load screen. This one I'm conflicted about... on one hand, the random player does get an in-game advantage when their race is hidden (how much of an advantage is debatable). On the other hand, the random player starts with the disadvantage of having to learn 9 matchups instead of 3. Do these factors balance out? Is one advantage/disadvantage bigger than the other? I certainly don't know, and this is coming from someone that had a lengthy stint laddering as an Honorable Macro Random!
Also, PSA to half the naysayers in this thread: Nobody is arguing "random is OP!!!!" If your counter-argument is "random isn't OP, git gud!!!!," you missed the point.
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On June 21 2022 08:43 Kitai wrote:
I disagree that random should be removed from competitive matchmaking. I do think it could be improved though.
I definitely agree with an earlier suggestion that the game should roll your race as soon as you enter the matchmaking queue so you can get matched with someone that has similar MMR to the race you're playing. Playing someone that is either way better or way worse than you because there's a big MMR gap between a random player's best and worst races leads to one-sided and unhelpful games if either player is interested in learning/improving.
Someone also suggested showing the race the random player rolled on the load screen. This one I'm conflicted about... on one hand, the random player does get an in-game advantage when their race is hidden (how much of an advantage is debatable). On the other hand, the random player starts with the disadvantage of having to learn 9 matchups instead of 3. Do these factors balance out? Is one advantage/disadvantage bigger than the other? I certainly don't know, and this is coming from someone that had a lengthy stint laddering as an Honorable Macro Random!
Also, PSA to half the naysayers in this thread: Nobody is arguing "random is OP!!!!" If your counter-argument is "random isn't OP, git gud!!!!," you missed the point.
The people complaining may give 5 reasons, but at the root of every one of these threads is a delicate, salty little boi crying "not fair!" over a recent XvR loss.
If this was a quality of life issue, you can insta quit vR.
If it's a balance issue, we have two decades worth of data that says random is not an advantage.
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On June 21 2022 09:50 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2022 08:43 Kitai wrote:
I disagree that random should be removed from competitive matchmaking. I do think it could be improved though.
I definitely agree with an earlier suggestion that the game should roll your race as soon as you enter the matchmaking queue so you can get matched with someone that has similar MMR to the race you're playing. Playing someone that is either way better or way worse than you because there's a big MMR gap between a random player's best and worst races leads to one-sided and unhelpful games if either player is interested in learning/improving.
Someone also suggested showing the race the random player rolled on the load screen. This one I'm conflicted about... on one hand, the random player does get an in-game advantage when their race is hidden (how much of an advantage is debatable). On the other hand, the random player starts with the disadvantage of having to learn 9 matchups instead of 3. Do these factors balance out? Is one advantage/disadvantage bigger than the other? I certainly don't know, and this is coming from someone that had a lengthy stint laddering as an Honorable Macro Random!
Also, PSA to half the naysayers in this thread: Nobody is arguing "random is OP!!!!" If your counter-argument is "random isn't OP, git gud!!!!," you missed the point.
The people complaining may give 5 reasons, but at the root of every one of these threads is a delicate, salty little boi crying "not fair!" over a recent XvR loss. If this was a quality of life issue, you can insta quit vR. If it's a balance issue, we have two decades worth of data that says random is not an advantage.
I am sorry that you are so angry and try to find the worst in everyone. I hope whatever is going on, things get better for you soon. 
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Not sure I agree with any of your points op.
The advantage of being random can close some of the gap if the person is below your MMR with that race.
Alternately, if they roll their best race and are a higher MMR than you - you said it feels like smurfing. Well they could ahead and Smurf.
Removing random does nothing.
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I feel like topic name is not helping getting the message across 
OP is advocating for keeping option of playing random but making visible what race has been drawn.
The idea is not to 'nerf' the random player but to allow the opposing player to chose valid opening against proper race as he/she would playing against known race.
It obviously removes an early advantage that the random player inherently has so it is a nerf. However I also do believe that given the fact how heavily optimized are openings in the SC2 and also quite specific depending the race you are playing against it makes playing against unknown race really awkward and easily leads to wonky games. Those wonky games can be both interesting as well as stupid and one sided.
Question is how many of them are interesting and how many of them are stupid and therefore a 'waste of time' ?
I am of the opinion that there could be an optional switch when choosing to play as random where you can decide if you want to have your drawn race revealed.
That way you can keep your advantage as an random player or you can chose to reveal your race at the beginning and play as it was normal matchup and practice standard openers.
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On June 22 2022 14:40 egrimm wrote:
I am of the opinion that there could be an optional switch when choosing to play as random where you can decide if you want to have your drawn race revealed.
That way you can keep your advantage as an random player or you can chose to reveal your race at the beginning and play as it was normal matchup and practice standard openers.
That's a decent idea.
I think taking away the only advantage of a Random player with the argument such as "I don't know what race they are!" or "they just cheese" is stupid. Scout! Because then would you want the loading screen to ALSO show for example that a terran is a Bio or rather a Mech player?
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Northern Ireland25593 Posts
On June 22 2022 14:40 egrimm wrote:I feel like topic name is not helping getting the message across OP is advocating for keeping option of playing random but making visible what race has been drawn. The idea is not to 'nerf' the random player but to allow the opposing player to chose valid opening against proper race as he/she would playing against known race. It obviously removes an early advantage that the random player inherently has so it is a nerf. However I also do believe that given the fact how heavily optimized are openings in the SC2 and also quite specific depending the race you are playing against it makes playing against unknown race really awkward and easily leads to wonky games. Those wonky games can be both interesting as well as stupid and one sided. Question is how many of them are interesting and how many of them are stupid and therefore a 'waste of time' ? I am of the opinion that there could be an optional switch when choosing to play as random where you can decide if you want to have your drawn race revealed. That way you can keep your advantage as an random player or you can chose to reveal your race at the beginning and play as it was normal matchup and practice standard openers.
Well said, I think it’s a decent summary of much of what’s been said.
On the flip side if it’s just an issue of scouting, would people enjoy laddering with everyone’s race being hidden? Things are super optimised at this point compared to back in ye olde days based around races and their specific capabilities, from how you wall etc.
I can’t both say stick up a reaper wall or an optimal vZ wall while scouting early enough. Which is fine if it’s a wonky game vs a player’s off race, and can be quite fun. If it’s their main race and we’re equally matched they’ve a little bit of a lead off the blocks due to me not doing my best vX builds.
This works the other way too, if I’m bored/wanna practice different races and play random, even if I reveal my race a fair few people are skeptical that I’m not playing mind games so I’m not playing against their best vX builds which I’d like to do.
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On June 21 2022 11:11 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2022 09:50 tskarzyn wrote:On June 21 2022 08:43 Kitai wrote:
I disagree that random should be removed from competitive matchmaking. I do think it could be improved though.
I definitely agree with an earlier suggestion that the game should roll your race as soon as you enter the matchmaking queue so you can get matched with someone that has similar MMR to the race you're playing. Playing someone that is either way better or way worse than you because there's a big MMR gap between a random player's best and worst races leads to one-sided and unhelpful games if either player is interested in learning/improving.
Someone also suggested showing the race the random player rolled on the load screen. This one I'm conflicted about... on one hand, the random player does get an in-game advantage when their race is hidden (how much of an advantage is debatable). On the other hand, the random player starts with the disadvantage of having to learn 9 matchups instead of 3. Do these factors balance out? Is one advantage/disadvantage bigger than the other? I certainly don't know, and this is coming from someone that had a lengthy stint laddering as an Honorable Macro Random!
Also, PSA to half the naysayers in this thread: Nobody is arguing "random is OP!!!!" If your counter-argument is "random isn't OP, git gud!!!!," you missed the point.
The people complaining may give 5 reasons, but at the root of every one of these threads is a delicate, salty little boi crying "not fair!" over a recent XvR loss. If this was a quality of life issue, you can insta quit vR. If it's a balance issue, we have two decades worth of data that says random is not an advantage. I am sorry that you are so angry and try to find the worst in everyone. I hope whatever is going on, things get better for you soon.
lol thank you my man, life is great but I will always appreciate the good vibes. I don't offrace much, but I respect random players and I respect data. people who make these threads respect neither. scout earlier and expect to lose if they rolled their best race. you have an edge 2/3 games. c'est la vie
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I've only played random in SC2, and I would be happy if they just revealed the race on the loading screen.
I played some ladder last night for the first time in about a year - in 8 games every game someone cheesed me or left instantly. Small sample size definitely, but I've never experienced that in the past!
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EPT
