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On June 20 2022 02:47 KNUCKLEHEAD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2022 19:27 BaneRiders wrote:
You are not talking about making the ladder a better experience for everyone, you are talking about making the ladder a (perceived) better place for you, and that is a huge difference. For me it would be worse, so stop that nonsense of talking about what would be better for everyone, because you don't represent everyone. Simple as that.
Removing the option of playing random is essentially the same as banning players from playing random, so I don't get the difference really, perhaps some semantics here? Whatever. You are of course free to think random players are sus as much as you want.
How would it make it worse? Care to add anything substantial or were you just here to flame? I was talking about what I felt MOST people would think. Still kinda stand by that, but what's your experience with 1v1 Random games? We're talking about changing the option...and that is not the same as banning people at all...if you really can't tell the difference between banning someone from playing the game versus changing how that game is run then I just don't know how we can discuss anything further.
Well, I feel like most people hate cheeses so according to you, we should change the game and include a "no rush 20 ladder" so that we can only play honourable macro games.
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I play random and I could never go back to being one race again.
I don't cheese either. Also in ladder if someone asks me what my race is I just tell them.
That being said, I wouldn't mind if they changed it where if you pick random, it picks your race but it shows what race you are so your opponent can see.
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How is this different than talking about banning mirror matchups? You don't want random to be an option because you don't find it enjoyable, I don't find mirror matchups enjoyable, where's the difference?
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On June 20 2022 02:59 Charoisaur wrote:
How is this different than talking about banning mirror matchups? You don't want random to be an option because you don't find it enjoyable, I don't find mirror matchups enjoyable, where's the difference?
While we are at it: I really dislike playing and playing against terran, so could we remove them, too?
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Random has been the same since Starcraft 1 first went live on battle.net.
It's not a viable option at pro levels (and never has been) which means it is not an actual advantage on ladder either if the opponent is skilled.
Whining about Random is just that, whining. There is absolutely zero reason to get rid of something that has worked the same way for over 20 years just because you lost a ladder match.
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On June 20 2022 03:13 Vindicare605 wrote:
Random has been the same since Starcraft 1 first went live on battle.net.
It's not a viable option at pro levels (and never has been) which means it is not an actual advantage on ladder either if the opponent is skilled.
Whining about Random is just that, whining. There is absolutely zero reason to get rid of something that has worked the same way for over 20 years just because you lost a ladder match.
mind you no one said anything about lost matches,
no one wanted to ban random,
no one wanted to ban mirror.
a match you won can be bullshit too.
(12 unit selection has worked the same way and I am glad we got rid of it)
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On June 20 2022 02:47 KNUCKLEHEAD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2022 02:35 Arghmyliver wrote:
It's only a "stupid waste of time" because you have decided that it is and refuse to learn from it. If you are having difficulty learning from your games, you could consider submitting the replay to someone for review. Hell, I'll look at your replays and give you a few pointers if it gets you to stop whining.
As I have stated multiple times, "personally, I find this annoying" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "They're cheesing!" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "I got beat by a better player" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. The only really viable reason to remove something is if it is demonstrably unfair, and this is clearly not.
So if we play 1v1 in basketball and the first thing I do is take the ball and kick it into the forest. 15 minutes later you find the ball and beat me. Are you thinking "Wow I feel so accomplished for winning that game, let me break down and look at how to improve from that"? Or are you going to think "I'm not sure if I want to play basketball with that person anymore"?
Uhh, what does this have anything to do with anything...?
& I'm asking genuinely, not to flame. Because playing random doesn't mean there's some arbitrary delay that happens in the game, you can still send out a scout to find what race the opponent is playing. In the scenario they are cheesing, assuming you scout at an appropriate time, if you scout their base, what would be the different between knowing their race vs not knowing their race?
As in if P is going for proxy gates, you scout his base & find nothing other than probes mining... What would be the difference, if this P is cheesing, whether you knew what his race was or not? I mean yes, it's the difference between knowing if it's proxy reapers or proxy zealots/adepts, but would the response not be virtually identical? Build bunker/build spine/build cannon?
Also, referring back to the previous analogy... If someone were to kick a basketball into the forest & it takes 15 mins for me to find the ball, how does this correlate to winning/losing? Are you suggesting that you are literally sprinting around the forest to find this basketball & thus you are physically exhausted? Or the fact that you have to wander around a forest leaves you mentally drained, thus unable to focus on the game 100%? Wouldn't the natural response to someone kicking a basketball into the forest either be "hey, why'd you kick it? go grab it please" or just leaving the basketball court because that's fucking hilarious yet ridiculous?
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On June 20 2022 12:03 SynC[gm] wrote:
Uhh, what does this have anything to do with anything...?
His point is that a thing can be a stupid waste of your time regardless of whether it results in a loss for you.
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On June 20 2022 03:13 Vindicare605 wrote:
Random has been the same since Starcraft 1 first went live on battle.net.
It's not a viable option at pro levels (and never has been) which means it is not an actual advantage on ladder either if the opponent is skilled.
Whining about Random is just that, whining. There is absolutely zero reason to get rid of something that has worked the same way for over 20 years just because you lost a ladder match.
Flash played random in recent Brood War tourney.
Agreed, whining about random is complete nonsense.
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On June 20 2022 20:07 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2022 12:03 SynC[gm] wrote:
Uhh, what does this have anything to do with anything...?
His point is that a thing can be a stupid waste of your time regardless of whether it results in a loss for you.
The thing is that the arguments for why you and OP think it's a waste of time just make zero sense and have nothing to do with random.
I will quote Arghmyliver here as he put it best.
You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true.
This is why I assume the people complaining about random are just salty because they lost a ladder game
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On June 20 2022 22:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2022 20:07 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 20 2022 12:03 SynC[gm] wrote:
Uhh, what does this have anything to do with anything...?
His point is that a thing can be a stupid waste of your time regardless of whether it results in a loss for you. The thing is that the arguments for why you and OP think it's a waste of time just make zero sense and have nothing to do with random. I will quote Arghmyliver here as he put it best. Show nested quote +You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true. This is why I assume the people complaining about random are just salty because they lost a ladder game
On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote:
For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races.
This is hard to understand?
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On June 20 2022 22:56 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2022 22:40 Charoisaur wrote:On June 20 2022 20:07 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 20 2022 12:03 SynC[gm] wrote:
Uhh, what does this have anything to do with anything...?
His point is that a thing can be a stupid waste of your time regardless of whether it results in a loss for you. The thing is that the arguments for why you and OP think it's a waste of time just make zero sense and have nothing to do with random. I will quote Arghmyliver here as he put it best. You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true. This is why I assume the people complaining about random are just salty because they lost a ladder game Show nested quote +On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote:
For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races. This is hard to understand?
and here we are again at the 'if random would be good Pro players would use it'
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On June 20 2022 23:12 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2022 22:56 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 20 2022 22:40 Charoisaur wrote:On June 20 2022 20:07 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 20 2022 12:03 SynC[gm] wrote:
Uhh, what does this have anything to do with anything...?
His point is that a thing can be a stupid waste of your time regardless of whether it results in a loss for you. The thing is that the arguments for why you and OP think it's a waste of time just make zero sense and have nothing to do with random. I will quote Arghmyliver here as he put it best. You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true. This is why I assume the people complaining about random are just salty because they lost a ladder game On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote:
For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races. This is hard to understand? and here we are again at the 'if random would be good Pro players would use it'
And here we are again at, it's not the question of whether playing random results in more wins or not, it's a question of whether an encounter with a random player on the ranked ladder is a valuable investment of my limited play time. If I have to pick some shitty build that I'd never actually use against any of the three races, against someone whose MMR with the race they rolled is likely either significantly above or significantly below mine, in my opinion that's a waste of my time.
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On June 20 2022 22:05 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2022 03:13 Vindicare605 wrote:
Random has been the same since Starcraft 1 first went live on battle.net.
It's not a viable option at pro levels (and never has been) which means it is not an actual advantage on ladder either if the opponent is skilled.
Whining about Random is just that, whining. There is absolutely zero reason to get rid of something that has worked the same way for over 20 years just because you lost a ladder match. Flash played random in recent Brood War tourney. Agreed, whining about random is complete nonsense.
Flash smashing face with Random in ASL and pulling off cute tricks that astounded Zerg and Protoss pros (eg reaver micro) was one of the glorious sights in recent BW history.
Peak SC2 would be two Random pros facing off in Blizzcon finals. No player can lay claim as a true GOAT without playing well with Random. And yes, I'm saying that not purely as a joke...
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On June 20 2022 23:51 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2022 23:12 Charoisaur wrote:On June 20 2022 22:56 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 20 2022 22:40 Charoisaur wrote:On June 20 2022 20:07 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 20 2022 12:03 SynC[gm] wrote:
Uhh, what does this have anything to do with anything...?
His point is that a thing can be a stupid waste of your time regardless of whether it results in a loss for you. The thing is that the arguments for why you and OP think it's a waste of time just make zero sense and have nothing to do with random. I will quote Arghmyliver here as he put it best. You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true. This is why I assume the people complaining about random are just salty because they lost a ladder game On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote:
For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races. This is hard to understand? and here we are again at the 'if random would be good Pro players would use it' And here we are again at, it's not the question of whether playing random results in more wins or not, it's a question of whether an encounter with a random player on the ranked ladder is a valuable investment of my limited play time. If I have to pick some shitty build that I'd never actually use against any of the three races, against someone whose MMR with the race they rolled is likely either significantly above or significantly below mine, in my opinion that's a waste of my time.
What you're saying doesn't make sense.
You're saying playing against random feels like a waste of time and as reason for that you state a perceived advantage for the random player (having to play a 'shitty' build). But the random player doesn't have an advantage because otherwise pro player would use it, so the reason why you feel like playing vs random is a waste of time is purely in your head.
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On June 20 2022 02:47 KNUCKLEHEAD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2022 19:27 BaneRiders wrote:
You are not talking about making the ladder a better experience for everyone, you are talking about making the ladder a (perceived) better place for you, and that is a huge difference. For me it would be worse, so stop that nonsense of talking about what would be better for everyone, because you don't represent everyone. Simple as that.
Removing the option of playing random is essentially the same as banning players from playing random, so I don't get the difference really, perhaps some semantics here? Whatever. You are of course free to think random players are sus as much as you want.
How would it make it worse? Care to add anything substantial or were you just here to flame? I was talking about what I felt MOST people would think. Still kinda stand by that, but what's your experience with 1v1 Random games? We're talking about changing the option...and that is not the same as banning people at all...if you really can't tell the difference between banning someone from playing the game versus changing how that game is run then I just don't know how we can discuss anything further.
How could it be worse??? I said before, I love playing random. It's my preferred option, and if you think about it for two seconds, so it must be for quite a lot of people, otherwise you would never have encountered them when playing. You state you don't want to play vs random and your "solution" is to have the option to play random removed in the interest of "everyone", or at least "MOST" people. Surely you must understand that this sounds like self entitled whining? You don't leave much room for discussion with that kind of approach. So yes. End of discussion from my side and wishing you good luck in getting out of your comfort zone and scouting your opponent earlier in the future. You can do it, I know it. 
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I don't like it when Random players announce their race. The mystery advantage is the best thing about playing Random. I like that it throws and opponent off, and that they have to scout (this is a good trick to do if you're afraid of "getting cheesed"), opposed to them just whipping out their standard go-to boring build order.
Wish it was more prevalent in pro play though. I loved when TLO was Random when he first started, and Gumiho of course. Flash deciding to go Random is just badass and exciting.
Leave Random as it has always been.
edit: I think if Maru manages to win G5L then his next challenge should be to win a Premier as Random :D
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Northern Ireland25245 Posts
On June 20 2022 23:54 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2022 22:05 EndingLife wrote:On June 20 2022 03:13 Vindicare605 wrote:
Random has been the same since Starcraft 1 first went live on battle.net.
It's not a viable option at pro levels (and never has been) which means it is not an actual advantage on ladder either if the opponent is skilled.
Whining about Random is just that, whining. There is absolutely zero reason to get rid of something that has worked the same way for over 20 years just because you lost a ladder match. Flash played random in recent Brood War tourney. Agreed, whining about random is complete nonsense. Flash smashing face with Random in ASL and pulling off cute tricks that astounded Zerg and Protoss pros (eg reaver micro) was one of the glorious sights in recent BW history. Peak SC2 would be two Random pros facing off in Blizzcon finals. No player can lay claim as a true GOAT without playing well with Random. And yes, I'm saying that not purely as a joke...
While that was extremely hype and memorable, and I absolutely did enjoy it there was a certain wonkiness to it as well.
That map-specific sunken cheese when ZvZ was rolled, iirc an easy enough cheese to stop if you know you’re playing ZvZ but Flash pulled it off. Perhaps someone less of a BW noob will correct me
It was epic to see Flash winning PvPs like he mained it, I won’t say I didn’t love that run.
Random vs random would be interesting to behold in either game given both players are lacking that initial knowledge of what they’re up against, I’d definitely watch the shit out of such a tournament.
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Northern Ireland25245 Posts
Made a wee poll for you fine folks
Poll: To all you random players, preference?Race remains hidden (11) 73% Race revealed to opponent by client (4) 27% No preference either way (0) 0% 15 total votes Your vote: To all you random players, preference? (Vote): Race remains hidden
(Vote): Race revealed to opponent by client
(Vote): No preference either way
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EPT
