EPTof course none of that is true. OP's proposition that random is op is just silly
Why is playing 'Random' still an option? - Page 3
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warnull
United States280 Posts
of course none of that is true. OP's proposition that random is op is just silly | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1106 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15955 Posts
On June 18 2022 05:17 SHODAN wrote: c'mon, just send an early worker to scout. there is always an opener you can do that will put you in a fair position vs random. it's banned in tourna play and nobody cares about your ladder points it's not banned in tournaments, just no pro player chooses to play it because contrary to what this thread tries to make us believe, plaing random is actually not an advantage but a huge handicap. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
That said, a loading screen with just "random" instead of the actual race you rolled is plain bs. The only way that would be fair is if both races were hidden. | ||
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KNUCKLEHEAD
United States18 Posts
On June 18 2022 23:57 Charoisaur wrote: it's not banned in tournaments, just no pro player chooses to play it because contrary to what this thread tries to make us believe, plaing random is actually not an advantage but a huge handicap. The the ESL rules it states that your race needs to be known by your opponent. I think that's more about switching races between a series. But I haven't 't seen any rules on Random specifically. It's beside the point, no one said that playing Random is OP, it's just annoying to play against and the games are a waste. It seems like the people that are playing Random disagree and those that have picked a race agreed. I'm not sure why this is becoming such a bickering match and why people are coming down on me for having an opinion based on my experiences but this is still the internet I guess. I am just wondering what the advantages are of keeping Random how it is in 1v1 Ranked because the games are just questionable at best and usually a waste of time. | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2577 Posts
I mean, you can agree or disagree with that, but maybe argue with the actual point being presented instead of saying "this is so wrong" and then arguing about whether random gives you an unfair advantage, which isn't an argument OP is making. | ||
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bela.mervado
Hungary388 Posts
On June 19 2022 00:48 vhapter wrote: Random is fine in the sense that you may play more than one race, but not want to pick a specific one. That said, a loading screen with just "random" instead of the actual race you rolled is plain bs. The only way that would be fair is if both races were hidden. hehe nice idea, haven't seen this one yet. i agree with those who say it is annoying, to say the least. when i play Z or T, i do not care, I'll know soon enough. but with P, all 3 matchups have different openings, requiring the very first pylon placed at the right spot at 0:12-0:18. you simply have no time to scout. if you go with ramp wall, you will be behind against a 12 pool, and to a degree, against a reaper scout. now, random is not that frequent in 1v1. quite some players announce their races, they are honored with a huge thank you accompanying the gl hf. but there are enough, who just roll their worst race(s) and this leads to some bullshit games in some way, at least in my experience. imo random should not have an mmr, it should roll the dice, and queue for one of the 3 races quietly, with their actual mmr. you can even add 3 more random buttons: [z/t], [t/p], [z/p], which would work similarly, but choosing from 2 races. | ||
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Arghmyliver
United States1077 Posts
On June 19 2022 01:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote: This thread is just people talking past each other. Everyone disagreeing with OP's point appears not to have actually read the post. Everyone is arguing against other things other people have said at other times about random. The post was not saying random provides an advantage, just that it's a stupid waste of time to play against random because the majority of people playing random aren't random mains, and have vast differences in their skill with the different races. So you often end up either getting stomped by what is effectively a smurf, or getting cheesed because the player doesn't play that race well (this is in fact what I do - I play random occasionally, and always stomp with Protoss, do fine with Zerg, or cheese with my useless Terran), making the whole exercise annoying. I mean, you can agree or disagree with that, but maybe argue with the actual point being presented instead of saying "this is so wrong" and then arguing about whether random gives you an unfair advantage, which isn't an argument OP is making. It's only a "stupid waste of time" because you have decided that it is and refuse to learn from it. If you are having difficulty learning from your games, you could consider submitting the replay to someone for review. Hell, I'll look at your replays and give you a few pointers if it gets you to stop whining. As I have stated multiple times, "personally, I find this annoying" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "They're cheesing!" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "I got beat by a better player" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. The only really viable reason to remove something is if it is demonstrably unfair, and this is clearly not. You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true. You can nonsensically complain that "half the time I always lose to Randoms!" (almost as if, the MMR system is working as intended?!). You can whine about being cheesed on ladder. You can whine about encountering players who perform better than you. None of this is helping you get any better at the game. None of this is garnering you any sympathy when your main complaint is how much of a "waste of time" these games are because you can't brainlessly play the same cookie cutter build every time and are forced to scout and think and can't be bothered to open a replay and seriously consider why you lost. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15955 Posts
The only question that matters is if random is fair or not and the answer to that is evidently 'yes' as otherwise it would be played at the Pro level. Also I think the only people complaining about random are people who desperately are looking for something to blame for their losses other than their own skill, so removing random wouldn't change anything because then you would just complain about Maps / Protoss / Queens / Ping / koreans or something else instead. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25249 Posts
On June 19 2022 01:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote: This thread is just people talking past each other. Everyone disagreeing with OP's point appears not to have actually read the post. Everyone is arguing against other things other people have said at other times about random. The post was not saying random provides an advantage, just that it's a stupid waste of time to play against random because the majority of people playing random aren't random mains, and have vast differences in their skill with the different races. So you often end up either getting stomped by what is effectively a smurf, or getting cheesed because the player doesn't play that race well (this is in fact what I do - I play random occasionally, and always stomp with Protoss, do fine with Zerg, or cheese with my useless Terran), making the whole exercise annoying. I mean, you can agree or disagree with that, but maybe argue with the actual point being presented instead of saying "this is so wrong" and then arguing about whether random gives you an unfair advantage, which isn't an argument OP is making. I mean basically this, I don’t find random OP or anything, I don’t think many are claiming this, it’s just annoying, due to the race not being revealed. On the flip side I found this true the other way around playing random myself. I’d reveal my race and some people would think I was playing mind games and do some weird build to catch various cheeses I wasn’t even doing, so often I didn’t really feel I was getting worthwhile practice either. My T and P are borderline equal, my Zerg kinda sucks but when I did roll Zerg I wanted more normal games. I’m a bit lapsed in being active and tbh I’d probably like to play random as my ‘main’ to keep things interesting/i generally suck anyway, but from my personal anecdotal experience doing so in the past I frequently didn’t get to play standard with a racial handicap/trying to master 9 matchups, I had frequently weird and wonky games based on my opponent playing v random rather than the race I rolled. Hell if even there was an option to pick random with no information, or alternatively ‘revealed random’ it would be a small QoL improvement. | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2577 Posts
On June 19 2022 02:35 Arghmyliver wrote: It's only a "stupid waste of time" because you have decided that it is and refuse to learn from it. If you are having difficulty learning from your games, you could consider submitting the replay to someone for review. Hell, I'll look at your replays and give you a few pointers if it gets you to stop whining. As I have stated multiple times, "personally, I find this annoying" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "They're cheesing!" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "I got beat by a better player" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. The only really viable reason to remove something is if it is demonstrably unfair, and this is clearly not. You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true. You can nonsensically complain that "half the time I always lose to Randoms!" (almost as if, the MMR system is working as intended?!). You can whine about being cheesed on ladder. You can whine about encountering players who perform better than you. None of this is helping you get any better at the game. None of this is garnering you any sympathy when your main complaint is how much of a "waste of time" these games are because you can't brainlessly play the same cookie cutter build every time and are forced to scout and think and can't be bothered to open a replay and seriously consider why you lost. You combine a degree of unwarranted aggression with a lack of reading comprehension that really makes you not worth the trouble of engaging with. | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2577 Posts
On June 19 2022 03:48 Charoisaur wrote: Whether you personally enjoy playing vs random or not is irrelevant. I don't particularly enjoy playing TvT but that doesn't mean it should be removed. The only question that matters is if random is fair or not and the answer to that is evidently 'yes' as otherwise it would be played at the Pro level. Also I think the only people complaining about random are people who desperately are looking for something to blame for their losses other than their own skill, so removing random wouldn't change anything because then you would just complain about Maps / Protoss / Queens / Ping / koreans or something else instead. I find the argument silly that if something annoys players that's not an argument for getting rid of it. A video game is a form of entertainment. Something being unfun is a very good argument for removing it. If the great majority of players like the feature then of course it should stick around and the minority can suck it up or play something else, but it's certainly reasonable to say something isn't fun and thus shouldn't be part of the game. Your second paragraph just loops back to this strawman that this is about being salty over losing to random players, which is just not the argument anyone is making. The argument being made here, repeatedly, is that win or lose, a game vs random is less fun and less worthwhile as practice. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Master of DalK
Canada1797 Posts
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Arghmyliver
United States1077 Posts
On June 19 2022 05:30 AmericanUmlaut wrote: You combine a degree of unwarranted aggression with a lack of reading comprehension that really makes you not worth the trouble of engaging with. Once again, you deflect and act like I haven't given perfectly reasonable arguments which you have so far failed to counter with anything other than "everyone here is just missing the point and clearly doesn't understand" and now "can you even read?!" You are the one who seems to have chosen to devolve the conversation into ad hominem. The games are not a waste of time per the points I have made ad nauseum. If you care to come up with a response, I would be glad to read it. I do hope that you have a pleasant day. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10673 Posts
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BaneRiders
Sweden3630 Posts
On June 18 2022 02:39 KNUCKLEHEAD wrote: At what point were we talking about banning people? The point is about making ladder a better experience for everyone. If you're a Random player that doesn't want their race revealed you're pretty much saying you rely on that advantage to play...which is sus. I can imagine that MOST people on ladder would be in favor of having the race of both players be known...especially at lower levels. If anyone has ever played a sports game, there's always an option to select a Random team. But you see what team you are before the game loads in and your opponent sees your team as well. Kinda weird that it wasn't like this from the jump. You are not talking about making the ladder a better experience for everyone, you are talking about making the ladder a (perceived) better place for you, and that is a huge difference. For me it would be worse, so stop that nonsense of talking about what would be better for everyone, because you don't represent everyone. Simple as that. Removing the option of playing random is essentially the same as banning players from playing random, so I don't get the difference really, perhaps some semantics here? Whatever. You are of course free to think random players are sus as much as you want. | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25249 Posts
At least in unranked anyway. I’d historically be pretty comfortable with both P and T and my Zerg sucked enough to drag me MMR down quite a bit, so I’d have a pretty big advantage if I rolled P or T. Or if I didn’t fancy mirrors I could play PvZ/T and TvP. I know this is pie in the sky nonsense but I know some third party ladders for other games let you do such things. | ||
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KNUCKLEHEAD
United States18 Posts
On June 19 2022 01:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote: This thread is just people talking past each other. Everyone disagreeing with OP's point appears not to have actually read the post. I mean, you can agree or disagree with that, but maybe argue with the actual point being presented instead of saying "this is so wrong" and then arguing about whether random gives you an unfair advantage, which isn't an argument OP is making. I'm glad some of us are able to comprehend this. I thought this would be a little simpler than it is. I'm baffled how 'banning mirror matchups' made its way into this thread. On June 19 2022 02:27 bela.mervado wrote: imo random should not have an mmr, it should roll the dice, and queue for one of the 3 races quietly, with their actual mmr. you can even add 3 more random buttons: [z/t], [t/p], [z/p], which would work similarly, but choosing from 2 races. I mean I feel like at that point why are we not just picking a race to load a game and then changing it the next game? Is it really that taxing to change from one race to the other? It's one click. On June 19 2022 02:35 Arghmyliver wrote: It's only a "stupid waste of time" because you have decided that it is and refuse to learn from it. If you are having difficulty learning from your games, you could consider submitting the replay to someone for review. Hell, I'll look at your replays and give you a few pointers if it gets you to stop whining. As I have stated multiple times, "personally, I find this annoying" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "They're cheesing!" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "I got beat by a better player" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. The only really viable reason to remove something is if it is demonstrably unfair, and this is clearly not. So if we play 1v1 in basketball and the first thing I do is take the ball and kick it into the forest. 15 minutes later you find the ball and beat me. Are you thinking "Wow I feel so accomplished for winning that game, let me break down and look at how to improve from that"? Or are you going to think "I'm not sure if I want to play basketball with that person anymore"? Also, arguably every balance patch ever in Starcraft 2 had to do with annoying things in the games...and people still had the stubborn mindset you had that "everything is fine". I've been playing this game for over 10 years and changes were constantly implemented based on the voices of the community. Things are often deemed unfair because they're incredibly annoying to deal with...like when swarmhosts ruled the world or even more recently how shield batteries have changed. This particular thing has just come up in every ladder session I've had and I am seeing what others have to say. There's a difference between having a discussion and an argument...you are clearly here for an argument. On June 19 2022 10:46 Master of DalK wrote: As a full-time random player I just tell race at the beginning of every game. Earlier in the thread people mention silently rolling race and using that MMR, and I agree. In fact it'd probably help as people work on 1 race out of the 3. Also show what race you are to your opponent on load with either unranked or rough league to the MMR for the race you got would be great. Thanks for that perspective! On June 19 2022 14:05 TelecoM wrote: I think it adds a little bit of a fun factor to the game, Random has always been an option, since StarCraft 1 Vanilla version. RvR is kind of exciting for its own reasons. Playing against Random can definitely have its struggles. RvR definitely seems like the only reason to keep things how they are. Thanks for sharing that, that makes sense. I still kinda feel like that is a super minority matchup, however. On June 19 2022 19:27 BaneRiders wrote: You are not talking about making the ladder a better experience for everyone, you are talking about making the ladder a (perceived) better place for you, and that is a huge difference. For me it would be worse, so stop that nonsense of talking about what would be better for everyone, because you don't represent everyone. Simple as that. Removing the option of playing random is essentially the same as banning players from playing random, so I don't get the difference really, perhaps some semantics here? Whatever. You are of course free to think random players are sus as much as you want. How would it make it worse? Care to add anything substantial or were you just here to flame? I was talking about what I felt MOST people would think. Still kinda stand by that, but what's your experience with 1v1 Random games? We're talking about changing the option...and that is not the same as banning people at all...if you really can't tell the difference between banning someone from playing the game versus changing how that game is run then I just don't know how we can discuss anything further. | ||
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Now, I get cheesed a lot. Should we ban protoss, terran and zerg because they don't play the way I want them to play, eh? 
