So I will preface this by stating that I am at ~4k MMR Zerg in NA. I notice more and more that I am queuing up against 'Random' players. I know this has always been a thing in SC2, but now that matchmaking has shifted in the late stage of this game, I am questioning why this still exists.
When I look at the profiles after the game most of the time I notice a huge gap in the MMR of Random players, i.e. their Protoss will be 4.7k and their Terran will be 3.8k or something. This means that the dice roll is more on the opponent than the actual Random player...so we will either play a higher MMR (or smurf) or a lower MMR with less of a grasp on the race.
Either way, these games are almost always a total waste of time. The Random player is either cheesing early because I don't know their initial race, or they're stomping because they got their main race, or they are just winging it.
When I talk to these players 9 times out of 10 their attitude is just "meh I don't care." So if 1v1 "Ranked" is supposed to be competitive and designed around ranking up, there is almost never anything to be learned by these games and to me, these games cause the most ladder burnout/anxiety.
I feel like Random should be exclusively for Unranked vs. Unranked play.
i agree, its they either get advantage from being random and getting there main race or get there second race and cheeze, cheeze, cheeze. And i agree these games are shitty. As a terran i either do Reaper expand in TvZ or TvP, or Double Gas in TvT, so half the time game is already fucked up for (Yes i know i could technically do Reaper FE in TvT as well, but its so much more abusable and im only 4.3k mmr )
This comes up every other year or so. A random player has to learn and practice 9 matchups. Someone with one main race has to learn 3. The 'advantage' you gain from rolling a random race at the beginning of the game is not enough to outweigh the drawbacks.
There will be times when your opponent does something unexpected regardless of what race they play. You will fail to scout a cheese, they will sneak a proxy somewhere, etc etc. Being able to adapt on the fly is not a waste of time. Yes, there is a "Strategy" aspect of the game, but that is not to say that you can or should be able to plan out an entire game every time before it starts. The other aspect, "Real-Time", requires you to react to your opponents as the game unfolds.
You will encounter players of vastly different skill even within the same league division depending on a variety of factors (form, mood, activity). To say that playing anyone who isn't the exact same MMR as you is "a total waste of time" is silly. In addition to the options you provided, it's also possible that the Random player (like many other players) is just going to try their best to win against you. Why should we gatekeep players in any league from doing this however they want (within the rules of the game, obv no cheating)? I'm sure many pro players might describe how you or I play as "just winging it." Why can't you "just wing it" sometimes?
To say that these games are worthless and that nothing can be learned from them is more than a little disingenuous.
These are the two cents I offer having seen this thread, like I said, about every other year.
On June 16 2022 13:08 Arghmyliver wrote: This comes up every other year or so. A random player has to learn and practice 9 matchups. Someone with one main race has to learn 3. The 'advantage' you gain from rolling a random race at the beginning of the game is not enough to outweigh the drawbacks.
You don't seem to have bothered to read the post before complaining it's the same as all the others posted "every year." OP's entire point is that you're wrong; people playing random are not usually full-time random players learning nine matchups, they've got a main race they get free wins with and non-mains they cheese with. I think that's pretty accurate, and it reflects my own experience both playing against Rs and playing R.
On June 16 2022 15:48 calh wrote: A better solution would be to silently roll their race first and do the matchmaking based on their MMR for that race alone.
I agree. I run into a pretty large number of R players who tell me what their race is immediately, and I always wonder why they bother playing R then and don't just do this, or cycle through the three races one after another.
I've always thought (since the early BW era) that we can have random or Zerp/Protoss or Terran/Zerg options and so on, however, it should always show which race we got. Problem solved.
On June 16 2022 15:48 calh wrote: A better solution would be to silently roll their race first and do the matchmaking based on their MMR for that race alone.
This is a good solution.
I agree with the OP. My MMR isn't even fully stable with how few games I have and I still find the random games to outliers. Most random players are not learning 3 races. They might be learning all of 4 matchups and just totally winging the rest, and it often shows.
On June 16 2022 15:48 calh wrote: A better solution would be to silently roll their race first and do the matchmaking based on their MMR for that race alone.
Part of the mmr gained is from the opponent not knowing the race and doing smth which is a worse opener. So really it should be considered a race by itself.
There could be two routes of thought, this one, where it's considered a race on it's own. And another one, where you simply queue and the game choses your matchmaking for you. If random was understood like this, by the game, then there could be seperate mmr's, and the race could be revealed to both players on the loading screen. And there could even be an option to queue as either Terran/Zerg, etc. I prefer the latter, but this is just not how it is currently designed.
On June 16 2022 15:48 calh wrote: A better solution would be to silently roll their race first and do the matchmaking based on their MMR for that race alone.
Part of the mmr gained is from the opponent not knowing the race and doing smth which is a worse opener. So really it should be considered a race by itself.
I think the effect of this is honestly quite small compared to the massive variance introduced by knowing how to play one race and not knowing another.
Revealed random should be the thing. If someone wants to roll the dice and try playing all three that’s great, go for it.
The MMR variance isn’t too bad, I guess it gives you the odd chance to play a player above your level if someone rolls their main.
For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races.
Case in point in WoL FFE was the way to play vs Z, and your 9 pylon had to go in prepping that wall. Which was basically suicide in PvP, and pretty bloody bad against T as well.
Any disadvantage a random player has comes into play the longer the game goes if they haven’t rolled their strong races, it doesn’t really stop them being able to cheese my sub-optimal blind catch-all build.
If they do roll their main, good race I’m behind a player probably already beyond my MMR range because I can’t blindly open a good macro opener, so I’m likely already behind a player who is probably better than me in an even opener scenario.
If SC2 build divergence occurred after the 2/3 minute mark according to racial opponent, blind random wouldn’t be an issue as you could scout. But the divergence can occur from the first pylon/depot placement
On June 16 2022 15:48 calh wrote: A better solution would be to silently roll their race first and do the matchmaking based on their MMR for that race alone.
Part of the mmr gained is from the opponent not knowing the race and doing smth which is a worse opener. So really it should be considered a race by itself.
I think the effect of this is honestly quite small compared to the massive variance introduced by knowing how to play one race and not knowing another.
On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote: For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races.
This is the beginning and the end of the argument for me. In the early portions of the game, you just have to make certain decisions before you can possibly have scouted your opponent, and getting locked into a bad build order that you've never practiced is just not fun. Conversely, it means that you never really learn to play the races properly if you are random, because you only ever play against people who basically can't open with standard builds against you, which impacts the flow of the entire match.
On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote: For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races.
This is the beginning and the end of the argument for me. In the early portions of the game, you just have to make certain decisions before you can possibly have scouted your opponent, and getting locked into a bad build order that you've never practiced is just not fun. Conversely, it means that you never really learn to play the races properly if you are random, because you only ever play against people who basically can't open with standard builds against you, which impacts the flow of the entire match.
Really changed your tune after the first response but I'm glad we landed on the same page. What you said though has always been the issue with Random and I'm also trying to bring to light this new angle which is people playing Random with such vast skill discrepancies between races that it doesn't make sense. Not to mention the fact that players queue up Random games after getting tilted from their main race ladder to just troll.
Also, getting 3 Randoms in a row can be a good 40 minutes or more depending on how hard they want to turtle. It just doesn't make the ladder a better place and like I said it's almost always a waste of time.
For the record, I don't even ladder late in the day for this reason. Random hits at least 30% of matches for me later in the day.
On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote: For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races.
This is the beginning and the end of the argument for me. In the early portions of the game, you just have to make certain decisions before you can possibly have scouted your opponent, and getting locked into a bad build order that you've never practiced is just not fun. Conversely, it means that you never really learn to play the races properly if you are random, because you only ever play against people who basically can't open with standard builds against you, which impacts the flow of the entire match.
Really changed your tune after the first response but I'm glad we landed on the same page. What you said though has always been the issue with Random and I'm also trying to bring to light this new angle which is people playing Random with such vast skill discrepancies between races that it doesn't make sense. Not to mention the fact that players queue up Random games after getting tilted from their main race ladder to just troll.
Also, getting 3 Randoms in a row can be a good 40 minutes or more depending on how hard they want to turtle. It just doesn't make the ladder a better place and like I said it's almost always a waste of time.
For the record, I don't even ladder late in the day for this reason. Random hits at least 30% of matches for me later in the day.
That's a non-issue, MMR will never be 100% accurate, if you play vs a player who just had a losing streak and lost 200 MMR, then logged off and started the next day with a fresh mindset he will also play above the skill level his MMR reflects. You should just focus on yourself and your play, then you will slowly but steady improve and increase your MMR. Focusing on complaining about your opponents MMR being 100 points higher or lower than it should be, resulting in your meaningless internet number deviating by a couple points more is completely pointless.
I would like to have a tune where random would stop being a race but instead of that, it would just pre-randomize a race for the player and then show this race to both on a loading screen and use MMR of this race to make a good matching. So Random would just be a button for those who's willing to play all races but doesn't want to chose.
However, in my opinion, this is the least of the three problems that makes laddering worse. The first one are that players don't have increasing penalties for leaving games, so they derank 500 MMR lower to beat noobs. The funny thing is that statistically, they don't create any problem becase they spend MMR, then gain MMR. But psychologically, there is a problem. If someone leaves your game, you're being like, well. When someone is obviously much stronger than you in the matchmaking that's supposed to be equal, it ruins your experience. They'd also often come up with things like 'leave noob' in the chat.
And Unraked vs Ranked matches, where a 4700 player would somehow have 3700 'Unranked MMR' and also enjoy beating noobs, while 'noobs' still have -25 of their Ranked MMR which doesn't make sense at a slightest. I'd love this to be removed entirely or maybe of we'd be offered a mark to check if we WANT to be matched against unranked or not. I would obviously always have this one OFF.
On June 17 2022 02:12 kaby wrote: I would like to have a tune where random would stop being a race but instead of that, it would just pre-randomize a race for the player and then show this race to both on a loading screen and use MMR of this race to make a good matching. So Random would just be a button for those who's willing to play all races but doesn't want to chose.
However, in my opinion, this is the least of the three problems that makes laddering worse. The first one are that players don't have increasing penalties for leaving games, so they derank 500 MMR lower to beat noobs. The funny thing is that statistically, they don't create any problem becase they spend MMR, then gain MMR. But psychologically, there is a problem. If someone leaves your game, you're being like, well. When someone is obviously much stronger than you in the matchmaking that's supposed to be equal, it ruins your experience. They'd also often come up with things like 'leave noob' in the chat.
And Unraked vs Ranked matches, where a 4700 player would somehow have 3700 'Unranked MMR' and also enjoy beating noobs, while 'noobs' still have -25 of their Ranked MMR which doesn't make sense at a slightest. I'd love this to be removed entirely or maybe of we'd be offered a mark to check if we WANT to be matched against unranked or not. I would obviously always have this one OFF.
i was connected against same terran 5 times in row lost all 5 tvt's, he started taunting me so i muted him obviously, he come online with another account this time its 800mmr higher (5k) and keeps talking shit. There are def players who abuse ability to just leave games and then style on there opponent.
On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote: For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races.
This is the beginning and the end of the argument for me. In the early portions of the game, you just have to make certain decisions before you can possibly have scouted your opponent, and getting locked into a bad build order that you've never practiced is just not fun. Conversely, it means that you never really learn to play the races properly if you are random, because you only ever play against people who basically can't open with standard builds against you, which impacts the flow of the entire match.
Really changed your tune after the first response.
I've agreed with you since my first response, in which I said that your argument reflected my experience.
On June 16 2022 13:08 Arghmyliver wrote: This comes up every other year or so. A random player has to learn and practice 9 matchups. Someone with one main race has to learn 3. The 'advantage' you gain from rolling a random race at the beginning of the game is not enough to outweigh the drawbacks.
You don't seem to have bothered to read the post before complaining it's the same as all the others posted "every year." OP's entire point is that you're wrong; people playing random are not usually full-time random players learning nine matchups, they've got a main race they get free wins with and non-mains they cheese with. I think that's pretty accurate, and it reflects my own experience both playing against Rs and playing R.
I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out that this post crops up every other year so that you can do some research and find what people have said about it already (a good practice before making a post anyways). I deliberately didn't complain because my opinion about the people who make such posts is beside the point.
In the rest of my post, I go on to explain how,
1. These are not "free wins." Playing against players rated better and worse than you is inherently part of the ladder system. You will get matched against players with better MMR who play worse than you. You will get matched against players with lower MMR who play better than you. It's part of the ladder.
2. Cheese is a part of the game you have to deal with. I don't really like it either. If someone beats you with cheese, they beat you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If your complaint is that "Sometimes when I play a Random they cheese, and sometimes they don't!" I have bad news for you regarding the other three races.
3. Variance is a part of the game that you have to deal with. People be doin crazy shit in this game that makes no sense. REAL-TIME STRATEGY
Interesting that you only quoted the first few sentences of my post and then used it as proof of how "You don't seem to have bothered to read the post." Hello Pot, this is Kettle.
The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time. Until you are playing in ~top 100 GM I doubt that scouting, even with your first worker, even before you build your first supply building, will be the deciding factor in your victory or loss. If Random players gained such an advantage from the blind roll, there would be many professional random players, but there are not (unfortunate because they are usually the most entertaining to watch). Random players are not holding you back from achieving your full potential as a SC2 player.
Random IS a fourth race, it DOES exist and its demonstrably NOT unfair. "But, I don't like to play against them," is not a viable reason to eliminate them from the game altogether. I don't like cannon rushes, because I can't blindly go 3 hatch before pool, but, aside from the occasional meme, I am not advocating for the removal of Protoss or even cannons from the game.
The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time. Until you are playing in ~top 100 GM I doubt that scouting, even with your first worker, even before you build your first supply building, will be the deciding factor in your victory or loss. If Random players gained such an advantage from the blind roll, there would be many professional random players, but there are not (unfortunate because they are usually the most entertaining to watch). Random players are not holding you back from achieving your full potential as a SC2 player.
Random IS a fourth race, it DOES exist and its demonstrably NOT unfair. "But, I don't like to play against them," is not a viable reason to eliminate them from the game altogether. I don't like cannon rushes, because I can't blindly go 3 hatch before pool, but, aside from the occasional meme, I am not advocating for the removal of Protoss or even cannons from the game.
Random is not fourth race, it literally gives you advantage, thats why random is banned in tourney play. Also you choose opening build before you are able to see opponent race, you are already doing unoptimized build vs random. You can tell yourself that its fair cuz random player needs to "learn 9mu's" but reality is different. There is nothing to gain from playing against random if you want to improve and compete in tournaments, its literally a detriment to your play.
The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time. Until you are playing in ~top 100 GM I doubt that scouting, even with your first worker, even before you build your first supply building, will be the deciding factor in your victory or loss. If Random players gained such an advantage from the blind roll, there would be many professional random players, but there are not (unfortunate because they are usually the most entertaining to watch). Random players are not holding you back from achieving your full potential as a SC2 player.
Random IS a fourth race, it DOES exist and its demonstrably NOT unfair. "But, I don't like to play against them," is not a viable reason to eliminate them from the game altogether. I don't like cannon rushes, because I can't blindly go 3 hatch before pool, but, aside from the occasional meme, I am not advocating for the removal of Protoss or even cannons from the game.
Random is not fourth race, it literally gives you advantage, thats why random is banned in tourney play. Also you choose opening build before you are able to see opponent race, you are already doing unoptimized build vs random. You can tell yourself that its fair cuz random player needs to "learn 9mu's" but reality is different. There is nothing to gain from playing against random if you want to improve and compete in tournaments, its literally a detriment to your play.
I play random sometimes, I like to off race and I dont really feel like picking one or I just don't feel like playing as seriously. As crazy as this sounds some people play the game just to have fun.
I always say what race I am because I'm not interested in having an advantage at all. However the reality is 99% of our MMRs dont really matter since most of us are quite bad. If it bothers you that much you can always just quit the game and re que
On June 17 2022 05:10 Moonerz wrote: I play random sometimes, I like to off race and I dont really feel like picking one or I just don't feel like playing as seriously. As crazy as this sounds some people play the game just to have fun.
I always say what race I am because I'm not interested in having an advantage at all. However the reality is 99% of our MMRs dont really matter since most of us are quite bad. If it bothers you that much you can always just quit the game and re que
So have the system tell your opponent what you rolled.
I, personally would just leave vR games since forever, they make for dumb and frustrating games.
On the flip side playing random and revealing my race half games I’m playing against absolute garbage builds that are meant to be catch alls against random cheese but useless for actually practicing the game vs the various races.
I don’t find it a particularly worthwhile exercise and I’m happy to lose my MMR points by just leaving.
It doesn’t feel an ideal solution. Also for people who legitimately want to play random, having their race revealed is no bother.
On June 16 2022 13:08 Arghmyliver wrote: This comes up every other year or so. A random player has to learn and practice 9 matchups. Someone with one main race has to learn 3. The 'advantage' you gain from rolling a random race at the beginning of the game is not enough to outweigh the drawbacks.
You don't seem to have bothered to read the post before complaining it's the same as all the others posted "every year." OP's entire point is that you're wrong; people playing random are not usually full-time random players learning nine matchups, they've got a main race they get free wins with and non-mains they cheese with. I think that's pretty accurate, and it reflects my own experience both playing against Rs and playing R.
I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out that this post crops up every other year so that you can do some research and find what people have said about it already (a good practice before making a post anyways). I deliberately didn't complain because my opinion about the people who make such posts is beside the point.
In the rest of my post, I go on to explain how,
1. These are not "free wins." Playing against players rated better and worse than you is inherently part of the ladder system. You will get matched against players with better MMR who play worse than you. You will get matched against players with lower MMR who play better than you. It's part of the ladder.
2. Cheese is a part of the game you have to deal with. I don't really like it either. If someone beats you with cheese, they beat you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If your complaint is that "Sometimes when I play a Random they cheese, and sometimes they don't!" I have bad news for you regarding the other three races.
3. Variance is a part of the game that you have to deal with. People be doin crazy shit in this game that makes no sense. REAL-TIME STRATEGY
Interesting that you only quoted the first few sentences of my post and then used it as proof of how "You don't seem to have bothered to read the post." Hello Pot, this is Kettle.
The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time. Until you are playing in ~top 100 GM I doubt that scouting, even with your first worker, even before you build your first supply building, will be the deciding factor in your victory or loss. If Random players gained such an advantage from the blind roll, there would be many professional random players, but there are not (unfortunate because they are usually the most entertaining to watch). Random players are not holding you back from achieving your full potential as a SC2 player.
Random IS a fourth race, it DOES exist and its demonstrably NOT unfair. "But, I don't like to play against them," is not a viable reason to eliminate them from the game altogether. I don't like cannon rushes, because I can't blindly go 3 hatch before pool, but, aside from the occasional meme, I am not advocating for the removal of Protoss or even cannons from the game.
‘The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time.’
I mean that is literally playing vs every second random player. It’s nonsense, especially as LoTV has streamlined the early game.
They know my race, and know my spawn so can blindly do things I can’t without taking absurd risks.
I’ve always tended to being a rather greedy player, the odd game a Zerg would 6/9 pool me and I got punished feels totally fair for me rolling the dice. My fault for cutting so many corners
I played Zerg since beta and just this year started playing random which I really enjoy. I always announce my race, I think that makes it fair. I do feel bad when I beat players with Zerg who are 600 MMR below me, but what can you do.
On June 16 2022 13:08 Arghmyliver wrote: This comes up every other year or so. A random player has to learn and practice 9 matchups. Someone with one main race has to learn 3. The 'advantage' you gain from rolling a random race at the beginning of the game is not enough to outweigh the drawbacks.
You don't seem to have bothered to read the post before complaining it's the same as all the others posted "every year." OP's entire point is that you're wrong; people playing random are not usually full-time random players learning nine matchups, they've got a main race they get free wins with and non-mains they cheese with. I think that's pretty accurate, and it reflects my own experience both playing against Rs and playing R.
I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out that this post crops up every other year so that you can do some research and find what people have said about it already (a good practice before making a post anyways). I deliberately didn't complain because my opinion about the people who make such posts is beside the point.
In the rest of my post, I go on to explain how,
1. These are not "free wins." Playing against players rated better and worse than you is inherently part of the ladder system. You will get matched against players with better MMR who play worse than you. You will get matched against players with lower MMR who play better than you. It's part of the ladder.
2. Cheese is a part of the game you have to deal with. I don't really like it either. If someone beats you with cheese, they beat you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If your complaint is that "Sometimes when I play a Random they cheese, and sometimes they don't!" I have bad news for you regarding the other three races.
3. Variance is a part of the game that you have to deal with. People be doin crazy shit in this game that makes no sense. REAL-TIME STRATEGY
Interesting that you only quoted the first few sentences of my post and then used it as proof of how "You don't seem to have bothered to read the post." Hello Pot, this is Kettle.
The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time. Until you are playing in ~top 100 GM I doubt that scouting, even with your first worker, even before you build your first supply building, will be the deciding factor in your victory or loss. If Random players gained such an advantage from the blind roll, there would be many professional random players, but there are not (unfortunate because they are usually the most entertaining to watch). Random players are not holding you back from achieving your full potential as a SC2 player.
Random IS a fourth race, it DOES exist and its demonstrably NOT unfair. "But, I don't like to play against them," is not a viable reason to eliminate them from the game altogether. I don't like cannon rushes, because I can't blindly go 3 hatch before pool, but, aside from the occasional meme, I am not advocating for the removal of Protoss or even cannons from the game.
‘The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time.’
I mean that is literally playing vs every second random player. It’s nonsense, especially as LoTV has streamlined the early game.
They know my race, and know my spawn so can blindly do things I can’t without taking absurd risks.
I’ve always tended to being a rather greedy player, the odd game a Zerg would 6/9 pool me and I got punished feels totally fair for me rolling the dice. My fault for cutting so many corners
Random not so much
"Every time." Every race has things you can blindly do that are more or less risky than others. I guarantee those Random players are not winning every time they do their blind cheese.
"Literally every second random player wins every time" -
On June 16 2022 13:08 Arghmyliver wrote: This comes up every other year or so. A random player has to learn and practice 9 matchups. Someone with one main race has to learn 3. The 'advantage' you gain from rolling a random race at the beginning of the game is not enough to outweigh the drawbacks.
You don't seem to have bothered to read the post before complaining it's the same as all the others posted "every year." OP's entire point is that you're wrong; people playing random are not usually full-time random players learning nine matchups, they've got a main race they get free wins with and non-mains they cheese with. I think that's pretty accurate, and it reflects my own experience both playing against Rs and playing R.
I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out that this post crops up every other year so that you can do some research and find what people have said about it already (a good practice before making a post anyways). I deliberately didn't complain because my opinion about the people who make such posts is beside the point.
In the rest of my post, I go on to explain how,
1. These are not "free wins." Playing against players rated better and worse than you is inherently part of the ladder system. You will get matched against players with better MMR who play worse than you. You will get matched against players with lower MMR who play better than you. It's part of the ladder.
2. Cheese is a part of the game you have to deal with. I don't really like it either. If someone beats you with cheese, they beat you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If your complaint is that "Sometimes when I play a Random they cheese, and sometimes they don't!" I have bad news for you regarding the other three races.
3. Variance is a part of the game that you have to deal with. People be doin crazy shit in this game that makes no sense. REAL-TIME STRATEGY
Interesting that you only quoted the first few sentences of my post and then used it as proof of how "You don't seem to have bothered to read the post." Hello Pot, this is Kettle.
The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time. Until you are playing in ~top 100 GM I doubt that scouting, even with your first worker, even before you build your first supply building, will be the deciding factor in your victory or loss. If Random players gained such an advantage from the blind roll, there would be many professional random players, but there are not (unfortunate because they are usually the most entertaining to watch). Random players are not holding you back from achieving your full potential as a SC2 player.
Random IS a fourth race, it DOES exist and its demonstrably NOT unfair. "But, I don't like to play against them," is not a viable reason to eliminate them from the game altogether. I don't like cannon rushes, because I can't blindly go 3 hatch before pool, but, aside from the occasional meme, I am not advocating for the removal of Protoss or even cannons from the game.
‘The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time.’
I mean that is literally playing vs every second random player. It’s nonsense, especially as LoTV has streamlined the early game.
They know my race, and know my spawn so can blindly do things I can’t without taking absurd risks.
I’ve always tended to being a rather greedy player, the odd game a Zerg would 6/9 pool me and I got punished feels totally fair for me rolling the dice. My fault for cutting so many corners
Random not so much
"They can blindly do things I can't without taking absurd risks" This is just an extreme hyperbole, random barely gives you any advantage. What are those "hyper-safe catch all builds" you are supposedly forced into doing? As Terran you can open Reaper Expand in every matchup As Zerg you can open Hatch first in every matchup As Protoss you can play Gateway expand in every matchup (I guess PvP is tricky but you can early Probe scout and adjust)
The only difference is that you might be forced into an earlier than usual Worker scout like in TvT for Proxy Reapers or in ZvT for Proxy Rax.
Compared to the difficulty of learning all 9 matchups this advantage is really minuscule. Like Arghmyliver said, if random would be good professional players would be using it.
ITT and every thread on this topic: blindly generalizing all random players are MMR scammers and cheesers as if someone cant have a similar skill level with each race and not want to choose.
It is the only option in-game for selecting a random race in matchmaking. Sometimes I just wanna play whatever is given to me. I don't feel like alt tabing to a dice roller or whatever. Don't blame random players for the fact that it doesn't tell the opponent the race (I agree it should and I announce my race because of this). Blame the game.
Also, people act like random players are the only ones that cheese.
Lastly, random players probably cheese because their opponents cheese them more than they actually cheese.
On June 17 2022 05:39 TequilaMockingbird wrote: I do feel bad when I beat players with Zerg who are 600 MMR below me, but what can you do.
You can finally realize that you 'enjoy' it BECAUSE you beat those players, no? And then stop abusing the system and start playing every race with its respective MMR that you really have. This is what all this topic is about
On June 17 2022 05:39 TequilaMockingbird wrote: I do feel bad when I beat players with Zerg who are 600 MMR below me, but what can you do.
You can finally realize that you 'enjoy' it BECAUSE you beat those players, no? And then stop abusing the system and start playing every race with its respective MMR that you really have. This is what all this topic is about
LMAO, "How dare you enjoy winning, do better!" jfc.
Oh man, I went on a bit of a crusade about this several years back and was kinda shocked how negative the reaction was. I was just thinking about that today, actually, and what I would have argued differently.
I assume exactly zero people are working on SC2 now though, right? It’d be so weird if in 2022 they finally changed how random worked.
On June 16 2022 15:48 calh wrote: A better solution would be to silently roll their race first and do the matchmaking based on their MMR for that race alone.
This is the solution. But it essentially removes Random from competitive 1v1...which I am all for.
On June 17 2022 05:23 WombaT wrote: I, personally would just leave vR games since forever, they make for dumb and frustrating games.
I'm pretty much at that level now. As soon as I see the loading screen I just say to myself "here goes a waste of time". No sense of accomplishment in the win and just tilt in the loss.
On June 17 2022 07:15 vult wrote: Don't blame random players for the fact that it doesn't tell the opponent the race (I agree it should and I announce my race because of this). Blame the game. Lastly, random players probably cheese because their opponents cheese them more than they actually cheese.
I am blaming the game. This is the point of the post. Why are we still entertaining this thing that really has no place in Ranked 1v1 ladder? It's not about people playing Random, that's fine knock yourself out, it's about playing AGAINST a Random which is rarely a positive experience.
On June 17 2022 06:29 Charoisaur wrote: Compared to the difficulty of learning all 9 matchups this advantage is really minuscule. Like Arghmyliver said, if random would be good professional players would be using it.
So you are pointing out what Random is SUPPOSED to be whereas I'm pointing out what my experience ACTUALLY is. The ideal situation or the intentions are not the reality when playing AGAINST a Random player. We can go on with 'whataboutisms' but it's beating around the bush. There's no way most players that are selecting Random are learning 9 matchups...rarely are they even scouting in my games. They are relying on their early advantage to cheese, or they get their strongest race which can be a much higher MMR, or they're just winging it and likely going to allin or throw the game at some point. This is my wholehearted experience for a long while now and this year it caused me to write this post.
Sound like a whine of a player who cant get any better with his main race and is envious of other players skills who can easily dumpster him even with random while not caring about the result or points. Because that is what random essentially is. You just want to play and have fun. Just take it on the chin or if you are that bitter then leave vs random and stop whining like a little...
On June 17 2022 16:10 MarianoSC2 wrote: Sound like a whine of a player who cant get any better with his main race and is envious of other players skills who can easily dumpster him even with random while not caring about the result or points. Because that is what random essentially is. You just want to play and have fun. Just take it on the chin or if you are that bitter then leave vs random and stop whining like a little...
Yeah it sounds a lot like players trying to blame things other than themselves for their losses. Guess you can't blame your teammates in sc2
I love playing random and I never cheese. Last time I revealed my race I got cannon rushed, so I will not reveal my race again I can tell you. Now, I get cheesed a lot. Should we ban protoss, terran and zerg because they don't play the way I want them to play, eh?
Every now and then I get free wins, because my opponent leaves right away. Every now and then I get beaten up so hard, and I notice my opponent has deliberately left quite a few games in his/her match history. Should we ban people who leave games?
Won't be a lot of players left on the ladder once you start banning people...
On June 16 2022 13:08 Arghmyliver wrote: This comes up every other year or so. A random player has to learn and practice 9 matchups. Someone with one main race has to learn 3. The 'advantage' you gain from rolling a random race at the beginning of the game is not enough to outweigh the drawbacks.
You don't seem to have bothered to read the post before complaining it's the same as all the others posted "every year." OP's entire point is that you're wrong; people playing random are not usually full-time random players learning nine matchups, they've got a main race they get free wins with and non-mains they cheese with. I think that's pretty accurate, and it reflects my own experience both playing against Rs and playing R.
I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out that this post crops up every other year so that you can do some research and find what people have said about it already (a good practice before making a post anyways). I deliberately didn't complain because my opinion about the people who make such posts is beside the point.
In the rest of my post, I go on to explain how,
1. These are not "free wins." Playing against players rated better and worse than you is inherently part of the ladder system. You will get matched against players with better MMR who play worse than you. You will get matched against players with lower MMR who play better than you. It's part of the ladder.
2. Cheese is a part of the game you have to deal with. I don't really like it either. If someone beats you with cheese, they beat you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If your complaint is that "Sometimes when I play a Random they cheese, and sometimes they don't!" I have bad news for you regarding the other three races.
3. Variance is a part of the game that you have to deal with. People be doin crazy shit in this game that makes no sense. REAL-TIME STRATEGY
Interesting that you only quoted the first few sentences of my post and then used it as proof of how "You don't seem to have bothered to read the post." Hello Pot, this is Kettle.
The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time. Until you are playing in ~top 100 GM I doubt that scouting, even with your first worker, even before you build your first supply building, will be the deciding factor in your victory or loss. If Random players gained such an advantage from the blind roll, there would be many professional random players, but there are not (unfortunate because they are usually the most entertaining to watch). Random players are not holding you back from achieving your full potential as a SC2 player.
Random IS a fourth race, it DOES exist and its demonstrably NOT unfair. "But, I don't like to play against them," is not a viable reason to eliminate them from the game altogether. I don't like cannon rushes, because I can't blindly go 3 hatch before pool, but, aside from the occasional meme, I am not advocating for the removal of Protoss or even cannons from the game.
‘The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time.’
I mean that is literally playing vs every second random player. It’s nonsense, especially as LoTV has streamlined the early game.
They know my race, and know my spawn so can blindly do things I can’t without taking absurd risks.
I’ve always tended to being a rather greedy player, the odd game a Zerg would 6/9 pool me and I got punished feels totally fair for me rolling the dice. My fault for cutting so many corners
Random not so much
"They can blindly do things I can't without taking absurd risks" This is just an extreme hyperbole, random barely gives you any advantage. What are those "hyper-safe catch all builds" you are supposedly forced into doing? As Terran you can open Reaper Expand in every matchup As Zerg you can open Hatch first in every matchup As Protoss you can play Gateway expand in every matchup (I guess PvP is tricky but you can early Probe scout and adjust)
The only difference is that you might be forced into an earlier than usual Worker scout like in TvT for Proxy Reapers or in ZvT for Proxy Rax.
Compared to the difficulty of learning all 9 matchups this advantage is really minuscule. Like Arghmyliver said, if random would be good professional players would be using it.
Random isn’t especially good no, I just find it profoundly irritating.
You are correct, things have improved a lot for Protoss in this domain in Legacy, they’ve a bit more flexibility than especially WoL where PvR was bloody awful.
I didn’t mind vR as T in that time because I opened 1 rax gasless all matchups anyway.
Just a minor wee gripe really, no biggy in the wider scheme of things
On June 17 2022 16:10 MarianoSC2 wrote: Sound like a whine of a player who cant get any better with his main race and is envious of other players skills who can easily dumpster him even with random while not caring about the result or points. Because that is what random essentially is. You just want to play and have fun. Just take it on the chin or if you are that bitter then leave vs random and stop whining like a little...
Sounds like someone who just reads one thing and comes up with their own conclusion. I said multiple times, it's a waste of time regardless of wins or losses. And why would we be playing 1v1 ranked if not caring about the games or improving?
On June 18 2022 01:56 BaneRiders wrote: I love playing random and I never cheese. Last time I revealed my race I got cannon rushed, so I will not reveal my race again I can tell you. Now, I get cheesed a lot. Should we ban protoss, terran and zerg because they don't play the way I want them to play, eh? Every now and then I get free wins, because my opponent leaves right away. Every now and then I get beaten up so hard, and I notice my opponent has deliberately left quite a few games in his/her match history. Should we ban people who leave games? Won't be a lot of players left on the ladder once you start banning people...
At what point were we talking about banning people? The point is about making ladder a better experience for everyone. If you're a Random player that doesn't want their race revealed you're pretty much saying you rely on that advantage to play...which is sus. I can imagine that MOST people on ladder would be in favor of having the race of both players be known...especially at lower levels.
If anyone has ever played a sports game, there's always an option to select a Random team. But you see what team you are before the game loads in and your opponent sees your team as well. Kinda weird that it wasn't like this from the jump.
I play 1v1 to have fun and because I enjoy this game, long gone are the days of trying to optimize my builds and analyze replays.
If you care about improving that much then you can still practice plenty vs the AI or a random player. Those games aren't worthless. I enjoy random and I'm sure plenty of other people do too. I don't mind changing it to announce race at the start of the game if thats a change that happens cool, if not no big deal.
Are you also up in arms about playing ranked vs people playing unranked? That is a much bigger issue imo in the current ranked ladder.
Do you also have a problem that 2/3 times you're going to get an easier match against most random players than the MMR reflects? It all evens out, the random players are not the bogeymen taking your MMR. If you're main goal is to improve you wouldn't really be hyper focused on your MMR anyway.
if random were any good we'd be seeing a lot more random players on ladder, and the top pro players would all pick random in tournaments. in particular we would expect a higher random proportion deeper into a tournament
of course none of that is true. OP's proposition that random is op is just silly
c'mon, just send an early worker to scout. there is always an opener you can do that will put you in a fair position vs random. it's banned in tourna play and nobody cares about your ladder points
On June 18 2022 05:17 SHODAN wrote: c'mon, just send an early worker to scout. there is always an opener you can do that will put you in a fair position vs random. it's banned in tourna play and nobody cares about your ladder points
it's not banned in tournaments, just no pro player chooses to play it because contrary to what this thread tries to make us believe, plaing random is actually not an advantage but a huge handicap.
Random is fine in the sense that you may play more than one race, but not want to pick a specific one.
That said, a loading screen with just "random" instead of the actual race you rolled is plain bs. The only way that would be fair is if both races were hidden.
On June 18 2022 05:17 SHODAN wrote: c'mon, just send an early worker to scout. there is always an opener you can do that will put you in a fair position vs random. it's banned in tourna play and nobody cares about your ladder points
it's not banned in tournaments, just no pro player chooses to play it because contrary to what this thread tries to make us believe, plaing random is actually not an advantage but a huge handicap.
The the ESL rules it states that your race needs to be known by your opponent. I think that's more about switching races between a series. But I haven't 't seen any rules on Random specifically.
It's beside the point, no one said that playing Random is OP, it's just annoying to play against and the games are a waste. It seems like the people that are playing Random disagree and those that have picked a race agreed. I'm not sure why this is becoming such a bickering match and why people are coming down on me for having an opinion based on my experiences but this is still the internet I guess.
I am just wondering what the advantages are of keeping Random how it is in 1v1 Ranked because the games are just questionable at best and usually a waste of time.
This thread is just people talking past each other. Everyone disagreeing with OP's point appears not to have actually read the post. Everyone is arguing against other things other people have said at other times about random. The post was not saying random provides an advantage, just that it's a stupid waste of time to play against random because the majority of people playing random aren't random mains, and have vast differences in their skill with the different races. So you often end up either getting stomped by what is effectively a smurf, or getting cheesed because the player doesn't play that race well (this is in fact what I do - I play random occasionally, and always stomp with Protoss, do fine with Zerg, or cheese with my useless Terran), making the whole exercise annoying.
I mean, you can agree or disagree with that, but maybe argue with the actual point being presented instead of saying "this is so wrong" and then arguing about whether random gives you an unfair advantage, which isn't an argument OP is making.
On June 19 2022 00:48 vhapter wrote: Random is fine in the sense that you may play more than one race, but not want to pick a specific one.
That said, a loading screen with just "random" instead of the actual race you rolled is plain bs. The only way that would be fair is if both races were hidden.
hehe nice idea, haven't seen this one yet.
i agree with those who say it is annoying, to say the least. when i play Z or T, i do not care, I'll know soon enough. but with P, all 3 matchups have different openings, requiring the very first pylon placed at the right spot at 0:12-0:18. you simply have no time to scout. if you go with ramp wall, you will be behind against a 12 pool, and to a degree, against a reaper scout.
now, random is not that frequent in 1v1. quite some players announce their races, they are honored with a huge thank you accompanying the gl hf. but there are enough, who just roll their worst race(s) and this leads to some bullshit games in some way, at least in my experience.
imo random should not have an mmr, it should roll the dice, and queue for one of the 3 races quietly, with their actual mmr. you can even add 3 more random buttons: [z/t], [t/p], [z/p], which would work similarly, but choosing from 2 races.
On June 19 2022 01:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote: This thread is just people talking past each other. Everyone disagreeing with OP's point appears not to have actually read the post. Everyone is arguing against other things other people have said at other times about random. The post was not saying random provides an advantage, just that it's a stupid waste of time to play against random because the majority of people playing random aren't random mains, and have vast differences in their skill with the different races. So you often end up either getting stomped by what is effectively a smurf, or getting cheesed because the player doesn't play that race well (this is in fact what I do - I play random occasionally, and always stomp with Protoss, do fine with Zerg, or cheese with my useless Terran), making the whole exercise annoying.
I mean, you can agree or disagree with that, but maybe argue with the actual point being presented instead of saying "this is so wrong" and then arguing about whether random gives you an unfair advantage, which isn't an argument OP is making.
It's only a "stupid waste of time" because you have decided that it is and refuse to learn from it. If you are having difficulty learning from your games, you could consider submitting the replay to someone for review. Hell, I'll look at your replays and give you a few pointers if it gets you to stop whining.
As I have stated multiple times, "personally, I find this annoying" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "They're cheesing!" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "I got beat by a better player" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. The only really viable reason to remove something is if it is demonstrably unfair, and this is clearly not.
You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true.
You can nonsensically complain that "half the time I always lose to Randoms!" (almost as if, the MMR system is working as intended?!). You can whine about being cheesed on ladder. You can whine about encountering players who perform better than you. None of this is helping you get any better at the game. None of this is garnering you any sympathy when your main complaint is how much of a "waste of time" these games are because you can't brainlessly play the same cookie cutter build every time and are forced to scout and think and can't be bothered to open a replay and seriously consider why you lost.
Whether you personally enjoy playing vs random or not is irrelevant. I don't particularly enjoy playing TvT but that doesn't mean it should be removed. The only question that matters is if random is fair or not and the answer to that is evidently 'yes' as otherwise it would be played at the Pro level.
Also I think the only people complaining about random are people who desperately are looking for something to blame for their losses other than their own skill, so removing random wouldn't change anything because then you would just complain about Maps / Protoss / Queens / Ping / koreans or something else instead.
On June 19 2022 01:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote: This thread is just people talking past each other. Everyone disagreeing with OP's point appears not to have actually read the post. Everyone is arguing against other things other people have said at other times about random. The post was not saying random provides an advantage, just that it's a stupid waste of time to play against random because the majority of people playing random aren't random mains, and have vast differences in their skill with the different races. So you often end up either getting stomped by what is effectively a smurf, or getting cheesed because the player doesn't play that race well (this is in fact what I do - I play random occasionally, and always stomp with Protoss, do fine with Zerg, or cheese with my useless Terran), making the whole exercise annoying.
I mean, you can agree or disagree with that, but maybe argue with the actual point being presented instead of saying "this is so wrong" and then arguing about whether random gives you an unfair advantage, which isn't an argument OP is making.
I mean basically this, I don’t find random OP or anything, I don’t think many are claiming this, it’s just annoying, due to the race not being revealed.
On the flip side I found this true the other way around playing random myself. I’d reveal my race and some people would think I was playing mind games and do some weird build to catch various cheeses I wasn’t even doing, so often I didn’t really feel I was getting worthwhile practice either.
My T and P are borderline equal, my Zerg kinda sucks but when I did roll Zerg I wanted more normal games.
I’m a bit lapsed in being active and tbh I’d probably like to play random as my ‘main’ to keep things interesting/i generally suck anyway, but from my personal anecdotal experience doing so in the past I frequently didn’t get to play standard with a racial handicap/trying to master 9 matchups, I had frequently weird and wonky games based on my opponent playing v random rather than the race I rolled.
Hell if even there was an option to pick random with no information, or alternatively ‘revealed random’ it would be a small QoL improvement.
On June 19 2022 01:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote: This thread is just people talking past each other. Everyone disagreeing with OP's point appears not to have actually read the post. Everyone is arguing against other things other people have said at other times about random. The post was not saying random provides an advantage, just that it's a stupid waste of time to play against random because the majority of people playing random aren't random mains, and have vast differences in their skill with the different races. So you often end up either getting stomped by what is effectively a smurf, or getting cheesed because the player doesn't play that race well (this is in fact what I do - I play random occasionally, and always stomp with Protoss, do fine with Zerg, or cheese with my useless Terran), making the whole exercise annoying.
I mean, you can agree or disagree with that, but maybe argue with the actual point being presented instead of saying "this is so wrong" and then arguing about whether random gives you an unfair advantage, which isn't an argument OP is making.
It's only a "stupid waste of time" because you have decided that it is and refuse to learn from it. If you are having difficulty learning from your games, you could consider submitting the replay to someone for review. Hell, I'll look at your replays and give you a few pointers if it gets you to stop whining.
As I have stated multiple times, "personally, I find this annoying" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "They're cheesing!" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "I got beat by a better player" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. The only really viable reason to remove something is if it is demonstrably unfair, and this is clearly not.
You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true.
You can nonsensically complain that "half the time I always lose to Randoms!" (almost as if, the MMR system is working as intended?!). You can whine about being cheesed on ladder. You can whine about encountering players who perform better than you. None of this is helping you get any better at the game. None of this is garnering you any sympathy when your main complaint is how much of a "waste of time" these games are because you can't brainlessly play the same cookie cutter build every time and are forced to scout and think and can't be bothered to open a replay and seriously consider why you lost.
You combine a degree of unwarranted aggression with a lack of reading comprehension that really makes you not worth the trouble of engaging with.
On June 19 2022 03:48 Charoisaur wrote: Whether you personally enjoy playing vs random or not is irrelevant. I don't particularly enjoy playing TvT but that doesn't mean it should be removed. The only question that matters is if random is fair or not and the answer to that is evidently 'yes' as otherwise it would be played at the Pro level.
Also I think the only people complaining about random are people who desperately are looking for something to blame for their losses other than their own skill, so removing random wouldn't change anything because then you would just complain about Maps / Protoss / Queens / Ping / koreans or something else instead.
I find the argument silly that if something annoys players that's not an argument for getting rid of it. A video game is a form of entertainment. Something being unfun is a very good argument for removing it. If the great majority of players like the feature then of course it should stick around and the minority can suck it up or play something else, but it's certainly reasonable to say something isn't fun and thus shouldn't be part of the game.
Your second paragraph just loops back to this strawman that this is about being salty over losing to random players, which is just not the argument anyone is making. The argument being made here, repeatedly, is that win or lose, a game vs random is less fun and less worthwhile as practice.
I know I do and I know that a couple of other people at least play random because they want to get the achievement points/portraits. Sound silly but yeah. As long as those are gettable in the game random should stay.
As a full-time random player I just tell race at the beginning of every game. Earlier in the thread people mention silently rolling race and using that MMR, and I agree. In fact it'd probably help as people work on 1 race out of the 3. Also show what race you are to your opponent on load with either unranked or rough league to the MMR for the race you got would be great.
On June 19 2022 01:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote: This thread is just people talking past each other. Everyone disagreeing with OP's point appears not to have actually read the post. Everyone is arguing against other things other people have said at other times about random. The post was not saying random provides an advantage, just that it's a stupid waste of time to play against random because the majority of people playing random aren't random mains, and have vast differences in their skill with the different races. So you often end up either getting stomped by what is effectively a smurf, or getting cheesed because the player doesn't play that race well (this is in fact what I do - I play random occasionally, and always stomp with Protoss, do fine with Zerg, or cheese with my useless Terran), making the whole exercise annoying.
I mean, you can agree or disagree with that, but maybe argue with the actual point being presented instead of saying "this is so wrong" and then arguing about whether random gives you an unfair advantage, which isn't an argument OP is making.
It's only a "stupid waste of time" because you have decided that it is and refuse to learn from it. If you are having difficulty learning from your games, you could consider submitting the replay to someone for review. Hell, I'll look at your replays and give you a few pointers if it gets you to stop whining.
As I have stated multiple times, "personally, I find this annoying" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "They're cheesing!" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "I got beat by a better player" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. The only really viable reason to remove something is if it is demonstrably unfair, and this is clearly not.
You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true.
You can nonsensically complain that "half the time I always lose to Randoms!" (almost as if, the MMR system is working as intended?!). You can whine about being cheesed on ladder. You can whine about encountering players who perform better than you. None of this is helping you get any better at the game. None of this is garnering you any sympathy when your main complaint is how much of a "waste of time" these games are because you can't brainlessly play the same cookie cutter build every time and are forced to scout and think and can't be bothered to open a replay and seriously consider why you lost.
You combine a degree of unwarranted aggression with a lack of reading comprehension that really makes you not worth the trouble of engaging with.
Once again, you deflect and act like I haven't given perfectly reasonable arguments which you have so far failed to counter with anything other than "everyone here is just missing the point and clearly doesn't understand" and now "can you even read?!" You are the one who seems to have chosen to devolve the conversation into ad hominem.
The games are not a waste of time per the points I have made ad nauseum. If you care to come up with a response, I would be glad to read it.
I think it adds a little bit of a fun factor to the game, Random has always been an option, since StarCraft 1 Vanilla version. RvR is kind of exciting for its own reasons. Playing against Random can definitely have its struggles.
On June 18 2022 01:56 BaneRiders wrote: I love playing random and I never cheese. Last time I revealed my race I got cannon rushed, so I will not reveal my race again I can tell you. Now, I get cheesed a lot. Should we ban protoss, terran and zerg because they don't play the way I want them to play, eh? Every now and then I get free wins, because my opponent leaves right away. Every now and then I get beaten up so hard, and I notice my opponent has deliberately left quite a few games in his/her match history. Should we ban people who leave games? Won't be a lot of players left on the ladder once you start banning people...
At what point were we talking about banning people? The point is about making ladder a better experience for everyone. If you're a Random player that doesn't want their race revealed you're pretty much saying you rely on that advantage to play...which is sus. I can imagine that MOST people on ladder would be in favor of having the race of both players be known...especially at lower levels.
If anyone has ever played a sports game, there's always an option to select a Random team. But you see what team you are before the game loads in and your opponent sees your team as well. Kinda weird that it wasn't like this from the jump.
You are not talking about making the ladder a better experience for everyone, you are talking about making the ladder a (perceived) better place for you, and that is a huge difference. For me it would be worse, so stop that nonsense of talking about what would be better for everyone, because you don't represent everyone. Simple as that.
Removing the option of playing random is essentially the same as banning players from playing random, so I don't get the difference really, perhaps some semantics here? Whatever. You are of course free to think random players are sus as much as you want.
As an aside more racepicking options would be nifty, as long as you have sufficiently accurate MMRs for matchups so it didn’t make for wonky games for your opponents.
At least in unranked anyway. I’d historically be pretty comfortable with both P and T and my Zerg sucked enough to drag me MMR down quite a bit, so I’d have a pretty big advantage if I rolled P or T.
Or if I didn’t fancy mirrors I could play PvZ/T and TvP.
I know this is pie in the sky nonsense but I know some third party ladders for other games let you do such things.
On June 19 2022 01:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote: This thread is just people talking past each other. Everyone disagreeing with OP's point appears not to have actually read the post. I mean, you can agree or disagree with that, but maybe argue with the actual point being presented instead of saying "this is so wrong" and then arguing about whether random gives you an unfair advantage, which isn't an argument OP is making.
I'm glad some of us are able to comprehend this. I thought this would be a little simpler than it is. I'm baffled how 'banning mirror matchups' made its way into this thread.
On June 19 2022 02:27 bela.mervado wrote: imo random should not have an mmr, it should roll the dice, and queue for one of the 3 races quietly, with their actual mmr. you can even add 3 more random buttons: [z/t], [t/p], [z/p], which would work similarly, but choosing from 2 races.
I mean I feel like at that point why are we not just picking a race to load a game and then changing it the next game? Is it really that taxing to change from one race to the other? It's one click.
On June 19 2022 02:35 Arghmyliver wrote: It's only a "stupid waste of time" because you have decided that it is and refuse to learn from it. If you are having difficulty learning from your games, you could consider submitting the replay to someone for review. Hell, I'll look at your replays and give you a few pointers if it gets you to stop whining. As I have stated multiple times, "personally, I find this annoying" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "They're cheesing!" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "I got beat by a better player" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. The only really viable reason to remove something is if it is demonstrably unfair, and this is clearly not.
So if we play 1v1 in basketball and the first thing I do is take the ball and kick it into the forest. 15 minutes later you find the ball and beat me. Are you thinking "Wow I feel so accomplished for winning that game, let me break down and look at how to improve from that"? Or are you going to think "I'm not sure if I want to play basketball with that person anymore"?
Also, arguably every balance patch ever in Starcraft 2 had to do with annoying things in the games...and people still had the stubborn mindset you had that "everything is fine". I've been playing this game for over 10 years and changes were constantly implemented based on the voices of the community. Things are often deemed unfair because they're incredibly annoying to deal with...like when swarmhosts ruled the world or even more recently how shield batteries have changed. This particular thing has just come up in every ladder session I've had and I am seeing what others have to say.
There's a difference between having a discussion and an argument...you are clearly here for an argument.
On June 19 2022 10:46 Master of DalK wrote: As a full-time random player I just tell race at the beginning of every game. Earlier in the thread people mention silently rolling race and using that MMR, and I agree. In fact it'd probably help as people work on 1 race out of the 3. Also show what race you are to your opponent on load with either unranked or rough league to the MMR for the race you got would be great.
Thanks for that perspective!
On June 19 2022 14:05 TelecoM wrote: I think it adds a little bit of a fun factor to the game, Random has always been an option, since StarCraft 1 Vanilla version. RvR is kind of exciting for its own reasons. Playing against Random can definitely have its struggles.
RvR definitely seems like the only reason to keep things how they are. Thanks for sharing that, that makes sense. I still kinda feel like that is a super minority matchup, however.
On June 19 2022 19:27 BaneRiders wrote: You are not talking about making the ladder a better experience for everyone, you are talking about making the ladder a (perceived) better place for you, and that is a huge difference. For me it would be worse, so stop that nonsense of talking about what would be better for everyone, because you don't represent everyone. Simple as that. Removing the option of playing random is essentially the same as banning players from playing random, so I don't get the difference really, perhaps some semantics here? Whatever. You are of course free to think random players are sus as much as you want.
How would it make it worse? Care to add anything substantial or were you just here to flame? I was talking about what I felt MOST people would think. Still kinda stand by that, but what's your experience with 1v1 Random games? We're talking about changing the option...and that is not the same as banning people at all...if you really can't tell the difference between banning someone from playing the game versus changing how that game is run then I just don't know how we can discuss anything further.
On June 19 2022 19:27 BaneRiders wrote: You are not talking about making the ladder a better experience for everyone, you are talking about making the ladder a (perceived) better place for you, and that is a huge difference. For me it would be worse, so stop that nonsense of talking about what would be better for everyone, because you don't represent everyone. Simple as that. Removing the option of playing random is essentially the same as banning players from playing random, so I don't get the difference really, perhaps some semantics here? Whatever. You are of course free to think random players are sus as much as you want.
How would it make it worse? Care to add anything substantial or were you just here to flame? I was talking about what I felt MOST people would think. Still kinda stand by that, but what's your experience with 1v1 Random games? We're talking about changing the option...and that is not the same as banning people at all...if you really can't tell the difference between banning someone from playing the game versus changing how that game is run then I just don't know how we can discuss anything further.
Well, I feel like most people hate cheeses so according to you, we should change the game and include a "no rush 20 ladder" so that we can only play honourable macro games.
I play random and I could never go back to being one race again.
I don't cheese either. Also in ladder if someone asks me what my race is I just tell them.
That being said, I wouldn't mind if they changed it where if you pick random, it picks your race but it shows what race you are so your opponent can see.
How is this different than talking about banning mirror matchups? You don't want random to be an option because you don't find it enjoyable, I don't find mirror matchups enjoyable, where's the difference?
On June 20 2022 02:59 Charoisaur wrote: How is this different than talking about banning mirror matchups? You don't want random to be an option because you don't find it enjoyable, I don't find mirror matchups enjoyable, where's the difference?
While we are at it: I really dislike playing and playing against terran, so could we remove them, too?
Random has been the same since Starcraft 1 first went live on battle.net.
It's not a viable option at pro levels (and never has been) which means it is not an actual advantage on ladder either if the opponent is skilled.
Whining about Random is just that, whining. There is absolutely zero reason to get rid of something that has worked the same way for over 20 years just because you lost a ladder match.
On June 20 2022 03:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Random has been the same since Starcraft 1 first went live on battle.net.
It's not a viable option at pro levels (and never has been) which means it is not an actual advantage on ladder either if the opponent is skilled.
Whining about Random is just that, whining. There is absolutely zero reason to get rid of something that has worked the same way for over 20 years just because you lost a ladder match.
mind you no one said anything about lost matches, no one wanted to ban random, no one wanted to ban mirror.
a match you won can be bullshit too.
(12 unit selection has worked the same way and I am glad we got rid of it)
On June 19 2022 02:35 Arghmyliver wrote: It's only a "stupid waste of time" because you have decided that it is and refuse to learn from it. If you are having difficulty learning from your games, you could consider submitting the replay to someone for review. Hell, I'll look at your replays and give you a few pointers if it gets you to stop whining. As I have stated multiple times, "personally, I find this annoying" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "They're cheesing!" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. "I got beat by a better player" is not a viable reason to remove anything from the game. The only really viable reason to remove something is if it is demonstrably unfair, and this is clearly not.
So if we play 1v1 in basketball and the first thing I do is take the ball and kick it into the forest. 15 minutes later you find the ball and beat me. Are you thinking "Wow I feel so accomplished for winning that game, let me break down and look at how to improve from that"? Or are you going to think "I'm not sure if I want to play basketball with that person anymore"?
Uhh, what does this have anything to do with anything...?
& I'm asking genuinely, not to flame. Because playing random doesn't mean there's some arbitrary delay that happens in the game, you can still send out a scout to find what race the opponent is playing. In the scenario they are cheesing, assuming you scout at an appropriate time, if you scout their base, what would be the different between knowing their race vs not knowing their race?
As in if P is going for proxy gates, you scout his base & find nothing other than probes mining... What would be the difference, if this P is cheesing, whether you knew what his race was or not? I mean yes, it's the difference between knowing if it's proxy reapers or proxy zealots/adepts, but would the response not be virtually identical? Build bunker/build spine/build cannon?
Also, referring back to the previous analogy... If someone were to kick a basketball into the forest & it takes 15 mins for me to find the ball, how does this correlate to winning/losing? Are you suggesting that you are literally sprinting around the forest to find this basketball & thus you are physically exhausted? Or the fact that you have to wander around a forest leaves you mentally drained, thus unable to focus on the game 100%? Wouldn't the natural response to someone kicking a basketball into the forest either be "hey, why'd you kick it? go grab it please" or just leaving the basketball court because that's fucking hilarious yet ridiculous?
On June 20 2022 03:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Random has been the same since Starcraft 1 first went live on battle.net.
It's not a viable option at pro levels (and never has been) which means it is not an actual advantage on ladder either if the opponent is skilled.
Whining about Random is just that, whining. There is absolutely zero reason to get rid of something that has worked the same way for over 20 years just because you lost a ladder match.
Flash played random in recent Brood War tourney. Agreed, whining about random is complete nonsense.
On June 20 2022 12:03 SynC[gm] wrote: Uhh, what does this have anything to do with anything...?
His point is that a thing can be a stupid waste of your time regardless of whether it results in a loss for you.
The thing is that the arguments for why you and OP think it's a waste of time just make zero sense and have nothing to do with random.
I will quote Arghmyliver here as he put it best.
You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true.
This is why I assume the people complaining about random are just salty because they lost a ladder game
You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true.
This is why I assume the people complaining about random are just salty because they lost a ladder game
On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote: For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races.
On June 20 2022 12:03 SynC[gm] wrote: Uhh, what does this have anything to do with anything...?
His point is that a thing can be a stupid waste of your time regardless of whether it results in a loss for you.
The thing is that the arguments for why you and OP think it's a waste of time just make zero sense and have nothing to do with random.
I will quote Arghmyliver here as he put it best.
You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true.
This is why I assume the people complaining about random are just salty because they lost a ladder game
On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote: For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races.
This is hard to understand?
and here we are again at the 'if random would be good Pro players would use it'
On June 20 2022 12:03 SynC[gm] wrote: Uhh, what does this have anything to do with anything...?
His point is that a thing can be a stupid waste of your time regardless of whether it results in a loss for you.
The thing is that the arguments for why you and OP think it's a waste of time just make zero sense and have nothing to do with random.
I will quote Arghmyliver here as he put it best.
You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true.
This is why I assume the people complaining about random are just salty because they lost a ladder game
On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote: For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races.
This is hard to understand?
and here we are again at the 'if random would be good Pro players would use it'
And here we are again at, it's not the question of whether playing random results in more wins or not, it's a question of whether an encounter with a random player on the ranked ladder is a valuable investment of my limited play time. If I have to pick some shitty build that I'd never actually use against any of the three races, against someone whose MMR with the race they rolled is likely either significantly above or significantly below mine, in my opinion that's a waste of my time.
On June 20 2022 03:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Random has been the same since Starcraft 1 first went live on battle.net.
It's not a viable option at pro levels (and never has been) which means it is not an actual advantage on ladder either if the opponent is skilled.
Whining about Random is just that, whining. There is absolutely zero reason to get rid of something that has worked the same way for over 20 years just because you lost a ladder match.
Flash played random in recent Brood War tourney. Agreed, whining about random is complete nonsense.
Flash smashing face with Random in ASL and pulling off cute tricks that astounded Zerg and Protoss pros (eg reaver micro) was one of the glorious sights in recent BW history.
Peak SC2 would be two Random pros facing off in Blizzcon finals. No player can lay claim as a true GOAT without playing well with Random. And yes, I'm saying that not purely as a joke...
On June 20 2022 12:03 SynC[gm] wrote: Uhh, what does this have anything to do with anything...?
His point is that a thing can be a stupid waste of your time regardless of whether it results in a loss for you.
The thing is that the arguments for why you and OP think it's a waste of time just make zero sense and have nothing to do with random.
I will quote Arghmyliver here as he put it best.
You can tank your MMR and actually be a smurf without playing Random. You can cheese without playing Random. You can run into someone hundreds of MMR better than you on ladder without them being Random. You are complaining about things that have nothing to do with Random, and because of your few anecdotal experiences with cheese, insist that every Random player is either a smurf or a cheeser, which is simply not true.
This is why I assume the people complaining about random are just salty because they lost a ladder game
On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote: For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races.
This is hard to understand?
and here we are again at the 'if random would be good Pro players would use it'
And here we are again at, it's not the question of whether playing random results in more wins or not, it's a question of whether an encounter with a random player on the ranked ladder is a valuable investment of my limited play time. If I have to pick some shitty build that I'd never actually use against any of the three races, against someone whose MMR with the race they rolled is likely either significantly above or significantly below mine, in my opinion that's a waste of my time.
What you're saying doesn't make sense. You're saying playing against random feels like a waste of time and as reason for that you state a perceived advantage for the random player (having to play a 'shitty' build). But the random player doesn't have an advantage because otherwise pro player would use it, so the reason why you feel like playing vs random is a waste of time is purely in your head.
On June 19 2022 19:27 BaneRiders wrote: You are not talking about making the ladder a better experience for everyone, you are talking about making the ladder a (perceived) better place for you, and that is a huge difference. For me it would be worse, so stop that nonsense of talking about what would be better for everyone, because you don't represent everyone. Simple as that. Removing the option of playing random is essentially the same as banning players from playing random, so I don't get the difference really, perhaps some semantics here? Whatever. You are of course free to think random players are sus as much as you want.
How would it make it worse? Care to add anything substantial or were you just here to flame? I was talking about what I felt MOST people would think. Still kinda stand by that, but what's your experience with 1v1 Random games? We're talking about changing the option...and that is not the same as banning people at all...if you really can't tell the difference between banning someone from playing the game versus changing how that game is run then I just don't know how we can discuss anything further.
How could it be worse??? I said before, I love playing random. It's my preferred option, and if you think about it for two seconds, so it must be for quite a lot of people, otherwise you would never have encountered them when playing. You state you don't want to play vs random and your "solution" is to have the option to play random removed in the interest of "everyone", or at least "MOST" people. Surely you must understand that this sounds like self entitled whining? You don't leave much room for discussion with that kind of approach. So yes. End of discussion from my side and wishing you good luck in getting out of your comfort zone and scouting your opponent earlier in the future. You can do it, I know it.
I don't like it when Random players announce their race. The mystery advantage is the best thing about playing Random. I like that it throws and opponent off, and that they have to scout (this is a good trick to do if you're afraid of "getting cheesed"), opposed to them just whipping out their standard go-to boring build order.
Wish it was more prevalent in pro play though. I loved when TLO was Random when he first started, and Gumiho of course. Flash deciding to go Random is just badass and exciting.
Leave Random as it has always been.
edit: I think if Maru manages to win G5L then his next challenge should be to win a Premier as Random :D
On June 20 2022 03:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Random has been the same since Starcraft 1 first went live on battle.net.
It's not a viable option at pro levels (and never has been) which means it is not an actual advantage on ladder either if the opponent is skilled.
Whining about Random is just that, whining. There is absolutely zero reason to get rid of something that has worked the same way for over 20 years just because you lost a ladder match.
Flash played random in recent Brood War tourney. Agreed, whining about random is complete nonsense.
Flash smashing face with Random in ASL and pulling off cute tricks that astounded Zerg and Protoss pros (eg reaver micro) was one of the glorious sights in recent BW history.
Peak SC2 would be two Random pros facing off in Blizzcon finals. No player can lay claim as a true GOAT without playing well with Random. And yes, I'm saying that not purely as a joke...
While that was extremely hype and memorable, and I absolutely did enjoy it there was a certain wonkiness to it as well.
That map-specific sunken cheese when ZvZ was rolled, iirc an easy enough cheese to stop if you know you’re playing ZvZ but Flash pulled it off. Perhaps someone less of a BW noob will correct me
It was epic to see Flash winning PvPs like he mained it, I won’t say I didn’t love that run.
Random vs random would be interesting to behold in either game given both players are lacking that initial knowledge of what they’re up against, I’d definitely watch the shit out of such a tournament.
On June 20 2022 03:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Random has been the same since Starcraft 1 first went live on battle.net.
It's not a viable option at pro levels (and never has been) which means it is not an actual advantage on ladder either if the opponent is skilled.
Whining about Random is just that, whining. There is absolutely zero reason to get rid of something that has worked the same way for over 20 years just because you lost a ladder match.
Flash played random in recent Brood War tourney. Agreed, whining about random is complete nonsense.
Flash smashing face with Random in ASL and pulling off cute tricks that astounded Zerg and Protoss pros (eg reaver micro) was one of the glorious sights in recent BW history.
Peak SC2 would be two Random pros facing off in Blizzcon finals. No player can lay claim as a true GOAT without playing well with Random. And yes, I'm saying that not purely as a joke...
I've always said RvR is the most purest form of Brood War. Apparently the same would apply for SC2.
On June 21 2022 02:26 bulldozer06701 wrote: I don't like it when Random players announce their race. The mystery advantage is the best thing about playing Random.
In my experience they lie about their race at least 1 out of 10 times, so you can't really trust them enough to change your opening based on what they said. For example when a barcode Random tells their race it is almost obvious they are lying.
I disagree that random should be removed from competitive matchmaking. I do think it could be improved though.
I definitely agree with an earlier suggestion that the game should roll your race as soon as you enter the matchmaking queue so you can get matched with someone that has similar MMR to the race you're playing. Playing someone that is either way better or way worse than you because there's a big MMR gap between a random player's best and worst races leads to one-sided and unhelpful games if either player is interested in learning/improving.
Someone also suggested showing the race the random player rolled on the load screen. This one I'm conflicted about... on one hand, the random player does get an in-game advantage when their race is hidden (how much of an advantage is debatable). On the other hand, the random player starts with the disadvantage of having to learn 9 matchups instead of 3. Do these factors balance out? Is one advantage/disadvantage bigger than the other? I certainly don't know, and this is coming from someone that had a lengthy stint laddering as an Honorable Macro Random!
Also, PSA to half the naysayers in this thread: Nobody is arguing "random is OP!!!!" If your counter-argument is "random isn't OP, git gud!!!!," you missed the point.
On June 21 2022 08:43 Kitai wrote: I disagree that random should be removed from competitive matchmaking. I do think it could be improved though.
I definitely agree with an earlier suggestion that the game should roll your race as soon as you enter the matchmaking queue so you can get matched with someone that has similar MMR to the race you're playing. Playing someone that is either way better or way worse than you because there's a big MMR gap between a random player's best and worst races leads to one-sided and unhelpful games if either player is interested in learning/improving.
Someone also suggested showing the race the random player rolled on the load screen. This one I'm conflicted about... on one hand, the random player does get an in-game advantage when their race is hidden (how much of an advantage is debatable). On the other hand, the random player starts with the disadvantage of having to learn 9 matchups instead of 3. Do these factors balance out? Is one advantage/disadvantage bigger than the other? I certainly don't know, and this is coming from someone that had a lengthy stint laddering as an Honorable Macro Random!
Also, PSA to half the naysayers in this thread: Nobody is arguing "random is OP!!!!" If your counter-argument is "random isn't OP, git gud!!!!," you missed the point.
The people complaining may give 5 reasons, but at the root of every one of these threads is a delicate, salty little boi crying "not fair!" over a recent XvR loss.
If this was a quality of life issue, you can insta quit vR.
If it's a balance issue, we have two decades worth of data that says random is not an advantage.
On June 21 2022 08:43 Kitai wrote: I disagree that random should be removed from competitive matchmaking. I do think it could be improved though.
I definitely agree with an earlier suggestion that the game should roll your race as soon as you enter the matchmaking queue so you can get matched with someone that has similar MMR to the race you're playing. Playing someone that is either way better or way worse than you because there's a big MMR gap between a random player's best and worst races leads to one-sided and unhelpful games if either player is interested in learning/improving.
Someone also suggested showing the race the random player rolled on the load screen. This one I'm conflicted about... on one hand, the random player does get an in-game advantage when their race is hidden (how much of an advantage is debatable). On the other hand, the random player starts with the disadvantage of having to learn 9 matchups instead of 3. Do these factors balance out? Is one advantage/disadvantage bigger than the other? I certainly don't know, and this is coming from someone that had a lengthy stint laddering as an Honorable Macro Random!
Also, PSA to half the naysayers in this thread: Nobody is arguing "random is OP!!!!" If your counter-argument is "random isn't OP, git gud!!!!," you missed the point.
The people complaining may give 5 reasons, but at the root of every one of these threads is a delicate, salty little boi crying "not fair!" over a recent XvR loss.
If this was a quality of life issue, you can insta quit vR.
If it's a balance issue, we have two decades worth of data that says random is not an advantage.
I am sorry that you are so angry and try to find the worst in everyone. I hope whatever is going on, things get better for you soon.
I feel like topic name is not helping getting the message across OP is advocating for keeping option of playing random but making visible what race has been drawn. The idea is not to 'nerf' the random player but to allow the opposing player to chose valid opening against proper race as he/she would playing against known race. It obviously removes an early advantage that the random player inherently has so it is a nerf. However I also do believe that given the fact how heavily optimized are openings in the SC2 and also quite specific depending the race you are playing against it makes playing against unknown race really awkward and easily leads to wonky games. Those wonky games can be both interesting as well as stupid and one sided. Question is how many of them are interesting and how many of them are stupid and therefore a 'waste of time' ? I am of the opinion that there could be an optional switch when choosing to play as random where you can decide if you want to have your drawn race revealed. That way you can keep your advantage as an random player or you can chose to reveal your race at the beginning and play as it was normal matchup and practice standard openers.
On June 22 2022 14:40 egrimm wrote: I am of the opinion that there could be an optional switch when choosing to play as random where you can decide if you want to have your drawn race revealed. That way you can keep your advantage as an random player or you can chose to reveal your race at the beginning and play as it was normal matchup and practice standard openers.
That's a decent idea.
I think taking away the only advantage of a Random player with the argument such as "I don't know what race they are!" or "they just cheese" is stupid. Scout! Because then would you want the loading screen to ALSO show for example that a terran is a Bio or rather a Mech player?
On June 22 2022 14:40 egrimm wrote: I feel like topic name is not helping getting the message across OP is advocating for keeping option of playing random but making visible what race has been drawn. The idea is not to 'nerf' the random player but to allow the opposing player to chose valid opening against proper race as he/she would playing against known race. It obviously removes an early advantage that the random player inherently has so it is a nerf. However I also do believe that given the fact how heavily optimized are openings in the SC2 and also quite specific depending the race you are playing against it makes playing against unknown race really awkward and easily leads to wonky games. Those wonky games can be both interesting as well as stupid and one sided. Question is how many of them are interesting and how many of them are stupid and therefore a 'waste of time' ? I am of the opinion that there could be an optional switch when choosing to play as random where you can decide if you want to have your drawn race revealed. That way you can keep your advantage as an random player or you can chose to reveal your race at the beginning and play as it was normal matchup and practice standard openers.
Well said, I think it’s a decent summary of much of what’s been said.
On the flip side if it’s just an issue of scouting, would people enjoy laddering with everyone’s race being hidden? Things are super optimised at this point compared to back in ye olde days based around races and their specific capabilities, from how you wall etc.
I can’t both say stick up a reaper wall or an optimal vZ wall while scouting early enough. Which is fine if it’s a wonky game vs a player’s off race, and can be quite fun. If it’s their main race and we’re equally matched they’ve a little bit of a lead off the blocks due to me not doing my best vX builds.
This works the other way too, if I’m bored/wanna practice different races and play random, even if I reveal my race a fair few people are skeptical that I’m not playing mind games so I’m not playing against their best vX builds which I’d like to do.
On June 21 2022 08:43 Kitai wrote: I disagree that random should be removed from competitive matchmaking. I do think it could be improved though.
I definitely agree with an earlier suggestion that the game should roll your race as soon as you enter the matchmaking queue so you can get matched with someone that has similar MMR to the race you're playing. Playing someone that is either way better or way worse than you because there's a big MMR gap between a random player's best and worst races leads to one-sided and unhelpful games if either player is interested in learning/improving.
Someone also suggested showing the race the random player rolled on the load screen. This one I'm conflicted about... on one hand, the random player does get an in-game advantage when their race is hidden (how much of an advantage is debatable). On the other hand, the random player starts with the disadvantage of having to learn 9 matchups instead of 3. Do these factors balance out? Is one advantage/disadvantage bigger than the other? I certainly don't know, and this is coming from someone that had a lengthy stint laddering as an Honorable Macro Random!
Also, PSA to half the naysayers in this thread: Nobody is arguing "random is OP!!!!" If your counter-argument is "random isn't OP, git gud!!!!," you missed the point.
The people complaining may give 5 reasons, but at the root of every one of these threads is a delicate, salty little boi crying "not fair!" over a recent XvR loss.
If this was a quality of life issue, you can insta quit vR.
If it's a balance issue, we have two decades worth of data that says random is not an advantage.
I am sorry that you are so angry and try to find the worst in everyone. I hope whatever is going on, things get better for you soon.
lol thank you my man, life is great but I will always appreciate the good vibes. I don't offrace much, but I respect random players and I respect data. people who make these threads respect neither. scout earlier and expect to lose if they rolled their best race. you have an edge 2/3 games. c'est la vie
I've only played random in SC2, and I would be happy if they just revealed the race on the loading screen.
I played some ladder last night for the first time in about a year - in 8 games every game someone cheesed me or left instantly. Small sample size definitely, but I've never experienced that in the past!
EPT
Now, I get cheesed a lot. Should we ban protoss, terran and zerg because they don't play the way I want them to play, eh? 
