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So I will preface this by stating that I am at ~4k MMR Zerg in NA. I notice more and more that I am queuing up against 'Random' players. I know this has always been a thing in SC2, but now that matchmaking has shifted in the late stage of this game, I am questioning why this still exists.
When I look at the profiles after the game most of the time I notice a huge gap in the MMR of Random players, i.e. their Protoss will be 4.7k and their Terran will be 3.8k or something. This means that the dice roll is more on the opponent than the actual Random player...so we will either play a higher MMR (or smurf) or a lower MMR with less of a grasp on the race.
Either way, these games are almost always a total waste of time. The Random player is either cheesing early because I don't know their initial race, or they're stomping because they got their main race, or they are just winging it.
When I talk to these players 9 times out of 10 their attitude is just "meh I don't care." So if 1v1 "Ranked" is supposed to be competitive and designed around ranking up, there is almost never anything to be learned by these games and to me, these games cause the most ladder burnout/anxiety.
I feel like Random should be exclusively for Unranked vs. Unranked play.
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i agree, its they either get advantage from being random and getting there main race or get there second race and cheeze, cheeze, cheeze. And i agree these games are shitty.
As a terran i either do Reaper expand in TvZ or TvP, or Double Gas in TvT, so half the time game is already fucked up for (Yes i know i could technically do Reaper FE in TvT as well, but its so much more abusable and im only 4.3k mmr )
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This comes up every other year or so. A random player has to learn and practice 9 matchups. Someone with one main race has to learn 3. The 'advantage' you gain from rolling a random race at the beginning of the game is not enough to outweigh the drawbacks.
There will be times when your opponent does something unexpected regardless of what race they play. You will fail to scout a cheese, they will sneak a proxy somewhere, etc etc. Being able to adapt on the fly is not a waste of time. Yes, there is a "Strategy" aspect of the game, but that is not to say that you can or should be able to plan out an entire game every time before it starts. The other aspect, "Real-Time", requires you to react to your opponents as the game unfolds.
You will encounter players of vastly different skill even within the same league division depending on a variety of factors (form, mood, activity). To say that playing anyone who isn't the exact same MMR as you is "a total waste of time" is silly. In addition to the options you provided, it's also possible that the Random player (like many other players) is just going to try their best to win against you. Why should we gatekeep players in any league from doing this however they want (within the rules of the game, obv no cheating)? I'm sure many pro players might describe how you or I play as "just winging it." Why can't you "just wing it" sometimes?
To say that these games are worthless and that nothing can be learned from them is more than a little disingenuous.
These are the two cents I offer having seen this thread, like I said, about every other year.
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On June 16 2022 13:08 Arghmyliver wrote:
This comes up every other year or so. A random player has to learn and practice 9 matchups. Someone with one main race has to learn 3. The 'advantage' you gain from rolling a random race at the beginning of the game is not enough to outweigh the drawbacks.
You don't seem to have bothered to read the post before complaining it's the same as all the others posted "every year." OP's entire point is that you're wrong; people playing random are not usually full-time random players learning nine matchups, they've got a main race they get free wins with and non-mains they cheese with. I think that's pretty accurate, and it reflects my own experience both playing against Rs and playing R.
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A better solution would be to silently roll their race first and do the matchmaking based on their MMR for that race alone.
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On June 16 2022 15:48 calh wrote:
A better solution would be to silently roll their race first and do the matchmaking based on their MMR for that race alone.
I agree. I run into a pretty large number of R players who tell me what their race is immediately, and I always wonder why they bother playing R then and don't just do this, or cycle through the three races one after another.
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I've always thought (since the early BW era) that we can have random or Zerp/Protoss or Terran/Zerg options and so on, however, it should always show which race we got. Problem solved.
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On June 16 2022 15:48 calh wrote:
A better solution would be to silently roll their race first and do the matchmaking based on their MMR for that race alone.
This is a good solution.
I agree with the OP. My MMR isn't even fully stable with how few games I have and I still find the random games to outliers. Most random players are not learning 3 races. They might be learning all of 4 matchups and just totally winging the rest, and it often shows.
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On June 16 2022 15:48 calh wrote:
A better solution would be to silently roll their race first and do the matchmaking based on their MMR for that race alone.
Part of the mmr gained is from the opponent not knowing the race and doing smth which is a worse opener. So really it should be considered a race by itself.
There could be two routes of thought, this one, where it's considered a race on it's own. And another one, where you simply queue and the game choses your matchmaking for you. If random was understood like this, by the game, then there could be seperate mmr's, and the race could be revealed to both players on the loading screen. And there could even be an option to queue as either Terran/Zerg, etc.
I prefer the latter, but this is just not how it is currently designed.
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On June 16 2022 20:27 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2022 15:48 calh wrote:
A better solution would be to silently roll their race first and do the matchmaking based on their MMR for that race alone. Part of the mmr gained is from the opponent not knowing the race and doing smth which is a worse opener. So really it should be considered a race by itself.
I think the effect of this is honestly quite small compared to the massive variance introduced by knowing how to play one race and not knowing another.
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Northern Ireland26473 Posts
Revealed random should be the thing. If someone wants to roll the dice and try playing all three that’s great, go for it.
The MMR variance isn’t too bad, I guess it gives you the odd chance to play a player above your level if someone rolls their main.
For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races.
Case in point in WoL FFE was the way to play vs Z, and your 9 pylon had to go in prepping that wall. Which was basically suicide in PvP, and pretty bloody bad against T as well.
Any disadvantage a random player has comes into play the longer the game goes if they haven’t rolled their strong races, it doesn’t really stop them being able to cheese my sub-optimal blind catch-all build.
If they do roll their main, good race I’m behind a player probably already beyond my MMR range because I can’t blindly open a good macro opener, so I’m likely already behind a player who is probably better than me in an even opener scenario.
If SC2 build divergence occurred after the 2/3 minute mark according to racial opponent, blind random wouldn’t be an issue as you could scout. But the divergence can occur from the first pylon/depot placement
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On June 16 2022 21:04 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2022 20:27 ejozl wrote:On June 16 2022 15:48 calh wrote:
A better solution would be to silently roll their race first and do the matchmaking based on their MMR for that race alone. Part of the mmr gained is from the opponent not knowing the race and doing smth which is a worse opener. So really it should be considered a race by itself. I think the effect of this is honestly quite small compared to the massive variance introduced by knowing how to play one race and not knowing another.
depends if you're cheesing or playing macro
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On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote:
For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races.
This is the beginning and the end of the argument for me. In the early portions of the game, you just have to make certain decisions before you can possibly have scouted your opponent, and getting locked into a bad build order that you've never practiced is just not fun. Conversely, it means that you never really learn to play the races properly if you are random, because you only ever play against people who basically can't open with standard builds against you, which impacts the flow of the entire match.
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On June 16 2022 23:44 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote:
For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races. This is the beginning and the end of the argument for me. In the early portions of the game, you just have to make certain decisions before you can possibly have scouted your opponent, and getting locked into a bad build order that you've never practiced is just not fun. Conversely, it means that you never really learn to play the races properly if you are random, because you only ever play against people who basically can't open with standard builds against you, which impacts the flow of the entire match.
Really changed your tune after the first response but I'm glad we landed on the same page. What you said though has always been the issue with Random and I'm also trying to bring to light this new angle which is people playing Random with such vast skill discrepancies between races that it doesn't make sense. Not to mention the fact that players queue up Random games after getting tilted from their main race ladder to just troll.
Also, getting 3 Randoms in a row can be a good 40 minutes or more depending on how hard they want to turtle. It just doesn't make the ladder a better place and like I said it's almost always a waste of time.
For the record, I don't even ladder late in the day for this reason. Random hits at least 30% of matches for me later in the day.
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On June 17 2022 01:30 KNUCKLEHEAD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2022 23:44 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote:
For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races. This is the beginning and the end of the argument for me. In the early portions of the game, you just have to make certain decisions before you can possibly have scouted your opponent, and getting locked into a bad build order that you've never practiced is just not fun. Conversely, it means that you never really learn to play the races properly if you are random, because you only ever play against people who basically can't open with standard builds against you, which impacts the flow of the entire match. Really changed your tune after the first response but I'm glad we landed on the same page. What you said though has always been the issue with Random and I'm also trying to bring to light this new angle which is people playing Random with such vast skill discrepancies between races that it doesn't make sense. Not to mention the fact that players queue up Random games after getting tilted from their main race ladder to just troll. Also, getting 3 Randoms in a row can be a good 40 minutes or more depending on how hard they want to turtle. It just doesn't make the ladder a better place and like I said it's almost always a waste of time. For the record, I don't even ladder late in the day for this reason. Random hits at least 30% of matches for me later in the day.
That's a non-issue, MMR will never be 100% accurate, if you play vs a player who just had a losing streak and lost 200 MMR, then logged off and started the next day with a fresh mindset he will also play above the skill level his MMR reflects.
You should just focus on yourself and your play, then you will slowly but steady improve and increase your MMR. Focusing on complaining about your opponents MMR being 100 points higher or lower than it should be, resulting in your meaningless internet number deviating by a couple points more is completely pointless.
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Russian Federation195 Posts
I would like to have a tune where random would stop being a race but instead of that, it would just pre-randomize a race for the player and then show this race to both on a loading screen and use MMR of this race to make a good matching. So Random would just be a button for those who's willing to play all races but doesn't want to chose.
However, in my opinion, this is the least of the three problems that makes laddering worse. The first one are that players don't have increasing penalties for leaving games, so they derank 500 MMR lower to beat noobs. The funny thing is that statistically, they don't create any problem becase they spend MMR, then gain MMR. But psychologically, there is a problem. If someone leaves your game, you're being like, well. When someone is obviously much stronger than you in the matchmaking that's supposed to be equal, it ruins your experience. They'd also often come up with things like 'leave noob' in the chat.
And Unraked vs Ranked matches, where a 4700 player would somehow have 3700 'Unranked MMR' and also enjoy beating noobs, while 'noobs' still have -25 of their Ranked MMR which doesn't make sense at a slightest. I'd love this to be removed entirely or maybe of we'd be offered a mark to check if we WANT to be matched against unranked or not. I would obviously always have this one OFF.
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On June 17 2022 02:12 kaby wrote:
I would like to have a tune where random would stop being a race but instead of that, it would just pre-randomize a race for the player and then show this race to both on a loading screen and use MMR of this race to make a good matching. So Random would just be a button for those who's willing to play all races but doesn't want to chose.
However, in my opinion, this is the least of the three problems that makes laddering worse. The first one are that players don't have increasing penalties for leaving games, so they derank 500 MMR lower to beat noobs. The funny thing is that statistically, they don't create any problem becase they spend MMR, then gain MMR. But psychologically, there is a problem. If someone leaves your game, you're being like, well. When someone is obviously much stronger than you in the matchmaking that's supposed to be equal, it ruins your experience. They'd also often come up with things like 'leave noob' in the chat.
And Unraked vs Ranked matches, where a 4700 player would somehow have 3700 'Unranked MMR' and also enjoy beating noobs, while 'noobs' still have -25 of their Ranked MMR which doesn't make sense at a slightest. I'd love this to be removed entirely or maybe of we'd be offered a mark to check if we WANT to be matched against unranked or not. I would obviously always have this one OFF.
i was connected against same terran 5 times in row lost all 5 tvt's, he started taunting me so i muted him obviously, he come online with another account this time its 800mmr higher (5k) and keeps talking shit.
There are def players who abuse ability to just leave games and then style on there opponent.
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On June 17 2022 01:30 KNUCKLEHEAD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2022 23:44 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 16 2022 22:53 WombaT wrote:
For me the issue is, and always has been that SC2 requires some quite specific openings tailored to races, that are sometimes outright garbage against other races. This is the beginning and the end of the argument for me. In the early portions of the game, you just have to make certain decisions before you can possibly have scouted your opponent, and getting locked into a bad build order that you've never practiced is just not fun. Conversely, it means that you never really learn to play the races properly if you are random, because you only ever play against people who basically can't open with standard builds against you, which impacts the flow of the entire match. Really changed your tune after the first response.
I've agreed with you since my first response, in which I said that your argument reflected my experience.
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On June 16 2022 15:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2022 13:08 Arghmyliver wrote:
This comes up every other year or so. A random player has to learn and practice 9 matchups. Someone with one main race has to learn 3. The 'advantage' you gain from rolling a random race at the beginning of the game is not enough to outweigh the drawbacks.
You don't seem to have bothered to read the post before complaining it's the same as all the others posted "every year." OP's entire point is that you're wrong; people playing random are not usually full-time random players learning nine matchups, they've got a main race they get free wins with and non-mains they cheese with. I think that's pretty accurate, and it reflects my own experience both playing against Rs and playing R.
I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out that this post crops up every other year so that you can do some research and find what people have said about it already (a good practice before making a post anyways). I deliberately didn't complain because my opinion about the people who make such posts is beside the point.
In the rest of my post, I go on to explain how,
1. These are not "free wins." Playing against players rated better and worse than you is inherently part of the ladder system. You will get matched against players with better MMR who play worse than you. You will get matched against players with lower MMR who play better than you. It's part of the ladder.
2. Cheese is a part of the game you have to deal with. I don't really like it either. If someone beats you with cheese, they beat you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If your complaint is that "Sometimes when I play a Random they cheese, and sometimes they don't!" I have bad news for you regarding the other three races.
3. Variance is a part of the game that you have to deal with. People be doin crazy shit in this game that makes no sense. REAL-TIME STRATEGY
Interesting that you only quoted the first few sentences of my post and then used it as proof of how "You don't seem to have bothered to read the post." Hello Pot, this is Kettle.
The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time. Until you are playing in ~top 100 GM I doubt that scouting, even with your first worker, even before you build your first supply building, will be the deciding factor in your victory or loss. If Random players gained such an advantage from the blind roll, there would be many professional random players, but there are not (unfortunate because they are usually the most entertaining to watch). Random players are not holding you back from achieving your full potential as a SC2 player.
Random IS a fourth race, it DOES exist and its demonstrably NOT unfair. "But, I don't like to play against them," is not a viable reason to eliminate them from the game altogether. I don't like cannon rushes, because I can't blindly go 3 hatch before pool, but, aside from the occasional meme, I am not advocating for the removal of Protoss or even cannons from the game.
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On June 17 2022 04:31 Arghmyliver wrote:
The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time. Until you are playing in ~top 100 GM I doubt that scouting, even with your first worker, even before you build your first supply building, will be the deciding factor in your victory or loss. If Random players gained such an advantage from the blind roll, there would be many professional random players, but there are not (unfortunate because they are usually the most entertaining to watch). Random players are not holding you back from achieving your full potential as a SC2 player.
Random IS a fourth race, it DOES exist and its demonstrably NOT unfair. "But, I don't like to play against them," is not a viable reason to eliminate them from the game altogether. I don't like cannon rushes, because I can't blindly go 3 hatch before pool, but, aside from the occasional meme, I am not advocating for the removal of Protoss or even cannons from the game.
Random is not fourth race, it literally gives you advantage, thats why random is banned in tourney play. Also you choose opening build before you are able to see opponent race, you are already doing unoptimized build vs random. You can tell yourself that its fair cuz random player needs to "learn 9mu's" but reality is different. There is nothing to gain from playing against random if you want to improve and compete in tournaments, its literally a detriment to your play.
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EPT
