The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time. Until you are playing in ~top 100 GM I doubt that scouting, even with your first worker, even before you build your first supply building, will be the deciding factor in your victory or loss. If Random players gained such an advantage from the blind roll, there would be many professional random players, but there are not (unfortunate because they are usually the most entertaining to watch). Random players are not holding you back from achieving your full potential as a SC2 player.
Random IS a fourth race, it DOES exist and its demonstrably NOT unfair. "But, I don't like to play against them," is not a viable reason to eliminate them from the game altogether. I don't like cannon rushes, because I can't blindly go 3 hatch before pool, but, aside from the occasional meme, I am not advocating for the removal of Protoss or even cannons from the game.
Random is not fourth race, it literally gives you advantage, thats why random is banned in tourney play. Also you choose opening build before you are able to see opponent race, you are already doing unoptimized build vs random. You can tell yourself that its fair cuz random player needs to "learn 9mu's" but reality is different. There is nothing to gain from playing against random if you want to improve and compete in tournaments, its literally a detriment to your play.
I play random sometimes, I like to off race and I dont really feel like picking one or I just don't feel like playing as seriously. As crazy as this sounds some people play the game just to have fun.
I always say what race I am because I'm not interested in having an advantage at all. However the reality is 99% of our MMRs dont really matter since most of us are quite bad. If it bothers you that much you can always just quit the game and re que
On June 17 2022 05:10 Moonerz wrote: I play random sometimes, I like to off race and I dont really feel like picking one or I just don't feel like playing as seriously. As crazy as this sounds some people play the game just to have fun.
I always say what race I am because I'm not interested in having an advantage at all. However the reality is 99% of our MMRs dont really matter since most of us are quite bad. If it bothers you that much you can always just quit the game and re que
So have the system tell your opponent what you rolled.
I, personally would just leave vR games since forever, they make for dumb and frustrating games.
On the flip side playing random and revealing my race half games I’m playing against absolute garbage builds that are meant to be catch alls against random cheese but useless for actually practicing the game vs the various races.
I don’t find it a particularly worthwhile exercise and I’m happy to lose my MMR points by just leaving.
It doesn’t feel an ideal solution. Also for people who legitimately want to play random, having their race revealed is no bother.
On June 16 2022 13:08 Arghmyliver wrote: This comes up every other year or so. A random player has to learn and practice 9 matchups. Someone with one main race has to learn 3. The 'advantage' you gain from rolling a random race at the beginning of the game is not enough to outweigh the drawbacks.
You don't seem to have bothered to read the post before complaining it's the same as all the others posted "every year." OP's entire point is that you're wrong; people playing random are not usually full-time random players learning nine matchups, they've got a main race they get free wins with and non-mains they cheese with. I think that's pretty accurate, and it reflects my own experience both playing against Rs and playing R.
I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out that this post crops up every other year so that you can do some research and find what people have said about it already (a good practice before making a post anyways). I deliberately didn't complain because my opinion about the people who make such posts is beside the point.
In the rest of my post, I go on to explain how,
1. These are not "free wins." Playing against players rated better and worse than you is inherently part of the ladder system. You will get matched against players with better MMR who play worse than you. You will get matched against players with lower MMR who play better than you. It's part of the ladder.
2. Cheese is a part of the game you have to deal with. I don't really like it either. If someone beats you with cheese, they beat you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If your complaint is that "Sometimes when I play a Random they cheese, and sometimes they don't!" I have bad news for you regarding the other three races.
3. Variance is a part of the game that you have to deal with. People be doin crazy shit in this game that makes no sense. REAL-TIME STRATEGY
Interesting that you only quoted the first few sentences of my post and then used it as proof of how "You don't seem to have bothered to read the post." Hello Pot, this is Kettle.
The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time. Until you are playing in ~top 100 GM I doubt that scouting, even with your first worker, even before you build your first supply building, will be the deciding factor in your victory or loss. If Random players gained such an advantage from the blind roll, there would be many professional random players, but there are not (unfortunate because they are usually the most entertaining to watch). Random players are not holding you back from achieving your full potential as a SC2 player.
Random IS a fourth race, it DOES exist and its demonstrably NOT unfair. "But, I don't like to play against them," is not a viable reason to eliminate them from the game altogether. I don't like cannon rushes, because I can't blindly go 3 hatch before pool, but, aside from the occasional meme, I am not advocating for the removal of Protoss or even cannons from the game.
‘The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time.’
I mean that is literally playing vs every second random player. It’s nonsense, especially as LoTV has streamlined the early game.
They know my race, and know my spawn so can blindly do things I can’t without taking absurd risks.
I’ve always tended to being a rather greedy player, the odd game a Zerg would 6/9 pool me and I got punished feels totally fair for me rolling the dice. My fault for cutting so many corners
I played Zerg since beta and just this year started playing random which I really enjoy. I always announce my race, I think that makes it fair. I do feel bad when I beat players with Zerg who are 600 MMR below me, but what can you do.
On June 16 2022 13:08 Arghmyliver wrote: This comes up every other year or so. A random player has to learn and practice 9 matchups. Someone with one main race has to learn 3. The 'advantage' you gain from rolling a random race at the beginning of the game is not enough to outweigh the drawbacks.
You don't seem to have bothered to read the post before complaining it's the same as all the others posted "every year." OP's entire point is that you're wrong; people playing random are not usually full-time random players learning nine matchups, they've got a main race they get free wins with and non-mains they cheese with. I think that's pretty accurate, and it reflects my own experience both playing against Rs and playing R.
I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out that this post crops up every other year so that you can do some research and find what people have said about it already (a good practice before making a post anyways). I deliberately didn't complain because my opinion about the people who make such posts is beside the point.
In the rest of my post, I go on to explain how,
1. These are not "free wins." Playing against players rated better and worse than you is inherently part of the ladder system. You will get matched against players with better MMR who play worse than you. You will get matched against players with lower MMR who play better than you. It's part of the ladder.
2. Cheese is a part of the game you have to deal with. I don't really like it either. If someone beats you with cheese, they beat you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If your complaint is that "Sometimes when I play a Random they cheese, and sometimes they don't!" I have bad news for you regarding the other three races.
3. Variance is a part of the game that you have to deal with. People be doin crazy shit in this game that makes no sense. REAL-TIME STRATEGY
Interesting that you only quoted the first few sentences of my post and then used it as proof of how "You don't seem to have bothered to read the post." Hello Pot, this is Kettle.
The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time. Until you are playing in ~top 100 GM I doubt that scouting, even with your first worker, even before you build your first supply building, will be the deciding factor in your victory or loss. If Random players gained such an advantage from the blind roll, there would be many professional random players, but there are not (unfortunate because they are usually the most entertaining to watch). Random players are not holding you back from achieving your full potential as a SC2 player.
Random IS a fourth race, it DOES exist and its demonstrably NOT unfair. "But, I don't like to play against them," is not a viable reason to eliminate them from the game altogether. I don't like cannon rushes, because I can't blindly go 3 hatch before pool, but, aside from the occasional meme, I am not advocating for the removal of Protoss or even cannons from the game.
‘The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time.’
I mean that is literally playing vs every second random player. It’s nonsense, especially as LoTV has streamlined the early game.
They know my race, and know my spawn so can blindly do things I can’t without taking absurd risks.
I’ve always tended to being a rather greedy player, the odd game a Zerg would 6/9 pool me and I got punished feels totally fair for me rolling the dice. My fault for cutting so many corners
Random not so much
"Every time." Every race has things you can blindly do that are more or less risky than others. I guarantee those Random players are not winning every time they do their blind cheese.
"Literally every second random player wins every time" -
On June 16 2022 13:08 Arghmyliver wrote: This comes up every other year or so. A random player has to learn and practice 9 matchups. Someone with one main race has to learn 3. The 'advantage' you gain from rolling a random race at the beginning of the game is not enough to outweigh the drawbacks.
You don't seem to have bothered to read the post before complaining it's the same as all the others posted "every year." OP's entire point is that you're wrong; people playing random are not usually full-time random players learning nine matchups, they've got a main race they get free wins with and non-mains they cheese with. I think that's pretty accurate, and it reflects my own experience both playing against Rs and playing R.
I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out that this post crops up every other year so that you can do some research and find what people have said about it already (a good practice before making a post anyways). I deliberately didn't complain because my opinion about the people who make such posts is beside the point.
In the rest of my post, I go on to explain how,
1. These are not "free wins." Playing against players rated better and worse than you is inherently part of the ladder system. You will get matched against players with better MMR who play worse than you. You will get matched against players with lower MMR who play better than you. It's part of the ladder.
2. Cheese is a part of the game you have to deal with. I don't really like it either. If someone beats you with cheese, they beat you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If your complaint is that "Sometimes when I play a Random they cheese, and sometimes they don't!" I have bad news for you regarding the other three races.
3. Variance is a part of the game that you have to deal with. People be doin crazy shit in this game that makes no sense. REAL-TIME STRATEGY
Interesting that you only quoted the first few sentences of my post and then used it as proof of how "You don't seem to have bothered to read the post." Hello Pot, this is Kettle.
The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time. Until you are playing in ~top 100 GM I doubt that scouting, even with your first worker, even before you build your first supply building, will be the deciding factor in your victory or loss. If Random players gained such an advantage from the blind roll, there would be many professional random players, but there are not (unfortunate because they are usually the most entertaining to watch). Random players are not holding you back from achieving your full potential as a SC2 player.
Random IS a fourth race, it DOES exist and its demonstrably NOT unfair. "But, I don't like to play against them," is not a viable reason to eliminate them from the game altogether. I don't like cannon rushes, because I can't blindly go 3 hatch before pool, but, aside from the occasional meme, I am not advocating for the removal of Protoss or even cannons from the game.
‘The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time.’
I mean that is literally playing vs every second random player. It’s nonsense, especially as LoTV has streamlined the early game.
They know my race, and know my spawn so can blindly do things I can’t without taking absurd risks.
I’ve always tended to being a rather greedy player, the odd game a Zerg would 6/9 pool me and I got punished feels totally fair for me rolling the dice. My fault for cutting so many corners
Random not so much
"They can blindly do things I can't without taking absurd risks" This is just an extreme hyperbole, random barely gives you any advantage. What are those "hyper-safe catch all builds" you are supposedly forced into doing? As Terran you can open Reaper Expand in every matchup As Zerg you can open Hatch first in every matchup As Protoss you can play Gateway expand in every matchup (I guess PvP is tricky but you can early Probe scout and adjust)
The only difference is that you might be forced into an earlier than usual Worker scout like in TvT for Proxy Reapers or in ZvT for Proxy Rax.
Compared to the difficulty of learning all 9 matchups this advantage is really minuscule. Like Arghmyliver said, if random would be good professional players would be using it.
ITT and every thread on this topic: blindly generalizing all random players are MMR scammers and cheesers as if someone cant have a similar skill level with each race and not want to choose.
It is the only option in-game for selecting a random race in matchmaking. Sometimes I just wanna play whatever is given to me. I don't feel like alt tabing to a dice roller or whatever. Don't blame random players for the fact that it doesn't tell the opponent the race (I agree it should and I announce my race because of this). Blame the game.
Also, people act like random players are the only ones that cheese.
Lastly, random players probably cheese because their opponents cheese them more than they actually cheese.
On June 17 2022 05:39 TequilaMockingbird wrote: I do feel bad when I beat players with Zerg who are 600 MMR below me, but what can you do.
You can finally realize that you 'enjoy' it BECAUSE you beat those players, no? And then stop abusing the system and start playing every race with its respective MMR that you really have. This is what all this topic is about
On June 17 2022 05:39 TequilaMockingbird wrote: I do feel bad when I beat players with Zerg who are 600 MMR below me, but what can you do.
You can finally realize that you 'enjoy' it BECAUSE you beat those players, no? And then stop abusing the system and start playing every race with its respective MMR that you really have. This is what all this topic is about
LMAO, "How dare you enjoy winning, do better!" jfc.
Oh man, I went on a bit of a crusade about this several years back and was kinda shocked how negative the reaction was. I was just thinking about that today, actually, and what I would have argued differently.
I assume exactly zero people are working on SC2 now though, right? It’d be so weird if in 2022 they finally changed how random worked.
On June 16 2022 15:48 calh wrote: A better solution would be to silently roll their race first and do the matchmaking based on their MMR for that race alone.
This is the solution. But it essentially removes Random from competitive 1v1...which I am all for.
On June 17 2022 05:23 WombaT wrote: I, personally would just leave vR games since forever, they make for dumb and frustrating games.
I'm pretty much at that level now. As soon as I see the loading screen I just say to myself "here goes a waste of time". No sense of accomplishment in the win and just tilt in the loss.
On June 17 2022 07:15 vult wrote: Don't blame random players for the fact that it doesn't tell the opponent the race (I agree it should and I announce my race because of this). Blame the game. Lastly, random players probably cheese because their opponents cheese them more than they actually cheese.
I am blaming the game. This is the point of the post. Why are we still entertaining this thing that really has no place in Ranked 1v1 ladder? It's not about people playing Random, that's fine knock yourself out, it's about playing AGAINST a Random which is rarely a positive experience.
On June 17 2022 06:29 Charoisaur wrote: Compared to the difficulty of learning all 9 matchups this advantage is really minuscule. Like Arghmyliver said, if random would be good professional players would be using it.
So you are pointing out what Random is SUPPOSED to be whereas I'm pointing out what my experience ACTUALLY is. The ideal situation or the intentions are not the reality when playing AGAINST a Random player. We can go on with 'whataboutisms' but it's beating around the bush. There's no way most players that are selecting Random are learning 9 matchups...rarely are they even scouting in my games. They are relying on their early advantage to cheese, or they get their strongest race which can be a much higher MMR, or they're just winging it and likely going to allin or throw the game at some point. This is my wholehearted experience for a long while now and this year it caused me to write this post.
Sound like a whine of a player who cant get any better with his main race and is envious of other players skills who can easily dumpster him even with random while not caring about the result or points. Because that is what random essentially is. You just want to play and have fun. Just take it on the chin or if you are that bitter then leave vs random and stop whining like a little...
On June 17 2022 16:10 MarianoSC2 wrote: Sound like a whine of a player who cant get any better with his main race and is envious of other players skills who can easily dumpster him even with random while not caring about the result or points. Because that is what random essentially is. You just want to play and have fun. Just take it on the chin or if you are that bitter then leave vs random and stop whining like a little...
Yeah it sounds a lot like players trying to blame things other than themselves for their losses. Guess you can't blame your teammates in sc2
I love playing random and I never cheese. Last time I revealed my race I got cannon rushed, so I will not reveal my race again I can tell you. Now, I get cheesed a lot. Should we ban protoss, terran and zerg because they don't play the way I want them to play, eh?
Every now and then I get free wins, because my opponent leaves right away. Every now and then I get beaten up so hard, and I notice my opponent has deliberately left quite a few games in his/her match history. Should we ban people who leave games?
Won't be a lot of players left on the ladder once you start banning people...
On June 16 2022 13:08 Arghmyliver wrote: This comes up every other year or so. A random player has to learn and practice 9 matchups. Someone with one main race has to learn 3. The 'advantage' you gain from rolling a random race at the beginning of the game is not enough to outweigh the drawbacks.
You don't seem to have bothered to read the post before complaining it's the same as all the others posted "every year." OP's entire point is that you're wrong; people playing random are not usually full-time random players learning nine matchups, they've got a main race they get free wins with and non-mains they cheese with. I think that's pretty accurate, and it reflects my own experience both playing against Rs and playing R.
I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out that this post crops up every other year so that you can do some research and find what people have said about it already (a good practice before making a post anyways). I deliberately didn't complain because my opinion about the people who make such posts is beside the point.
In the rest of my post, I go on to explain how,
1. These are not "free wins." Playing against players rated better and worse than you is inherently part of the ladder system. You will get matched against players with better MMR who play worse than you. You will get matched against players with lower MMR who play better than you. It's part of the ladder.
2. Cheese is a part of the game you have to deal with. I don't really like it either. If someone beats you with cheese, they beat you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If your complaint is that "Sometimes when I play a Random they cheese, and sometimes they don't!" I have bad news for you regarding the other three races.
3. Variance is a part of the game that you have to deal with. People be doin crazy shit in this game that makes no sense. REAL-TIME STRATEGY
Interesting that you only quoted the first few sentences of my post and then used it as proof of how "You don't seem to have bothered to read the post." Hello Pot, this is Kettle.
The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time. Until you are playing in ~top 100 GM I doubt that scouting, even with your first worker, even before you build your first supply building, will be the deciding factor in your victory or loss. If Random players gained such an advantage from the blind roll, there would be many professional random players, but there are not (unfortunate because they are usually the most entertaining to watch). Random players are not holding you back from achieving your full potential as a SC2 player.
Random IS a fourth race, it DOES exist and its demonstrably NOT unfair. "But, I don't like to play against them," is not a viable reason to eliminate them from the game altogether. I don't like cannon rushes, because I can't blindly go 3 hatch before pool, but, aside from the occasional meme, I am not advocating for the removal of Protoss or even cannons from the game.
‘The game is not supposed to be designed so that you can just blindly build things without scouting your opponent and win every time.’
I mean that is literally playing vs every second random player. It’s nonsense, especially as LoTV has streamlined the early game.
They know my race, and know my spawn so can blindly do things I can’t without taking absurd risks.
I’ve always tended to being a rather greedy player, the odd game a Zerg would 6/9 pool me and I got punished feels totally fair for me rolling the dice. My fault for cutting so many corners
Random not so much
"They can blindly do things I can't without taking absurd risks" This is just an extreme hyperbole, random barely gives you any advantage. What are those "hyper-safe catch all builds" you are supposedly forced into doing? As Terran you can open Reaper Expand in every matchup As Zerg you can open Hatch first in every matchup As Protoss you can play Gateway expand in every matchup (I guess PvP is tricky but you can early Probe scout and adjust)
The only difference is that you might be forced into an earlier than usual Worker scout like in TvT for Proxy Reapers or in ZvT for Proxy Rax.
Compared to the difficulty of learning all 9 matchups this advantage is really minuscule. Like Arghmyliver said, if random would be good professional players would be using it.
Random isn’t especially good no, I just find it profoundly irritating.
You are correct, things have improved a lot for Protoss in this domain in Legacy, they’ve a bit more flexibility than especially WoL where PvR was bloody awful.
I didn’t mind vR as T in that time because I opened 1 rax gasless all matchups anyway.
Just a minor wee gripe really, no biggy in the wider scheme of things
On June 17 2022 16:10 MarianoSC2 wrote: Sound like a whine of a player who cant get any better with his main race and is envious of other players skills who can easily dumpster him even with random while not caring about the result or points. Because that is what random essentially is. You just want to play and have fun. Just take it on the chin or if you are that bitter then leave vs random and stop whining like a little...
Sounds like someone who just reads one thing and comes up with their own conclusion. I said multiple times, it's a waste of time regardless of wins or losses. And why would we be playing 1v1 ranked if not caring about the games or improving?
On June 18 2022 01:56 BaneRiders wrote: I love playing random and I never cheese. Last time I revealed my race I got cannon rushed, so I will not reveal my race again I can tell you. Now, I get cheesed a lot. Should we ban protoss, terran and zerg because they don't play the way I want them to play, eh? Every now and then I get free wins, because my opponent leaves right away. Every now and then I get beaten up so hard, and I notice my opponent has deliberately left quite a few games in his/her match history. Should we ban people who leave games? Won't be a lot of players left on the ladder once you start banning people...
At what point were we talking about banning people? The point is about making ladder a better experience for everyone. If you're a Random player that doesn't want their race revealed you're pretty much saying you rely on that advantage to play...which is sus. I can imagine that MOST people on ladder would be in favor of having the race of both players be known...especially at lower levels.
If anyone has ever played a sports game, there's always an option to select a Random team. But you see what team you are before the game loads in and your opponent sees your team as well. Kinda weird that it wasn't like this from the jump.
I play 1v1 to have fun and because I enjoy this game, long gone are the days of trying to optimize my builds and analyze replays.
If you care about improving that much then you can still practice plenty vs the AI or a random player. Those games aren't worthless. I enjoy random and I'm sure plenty of other people do too. I don't mind changing it to announce race at the start of the game if thats a change that happens cool, if not no big deal.
Are you also up in arms about playing ranked vs people playing unranked? That is a much bigger issue imo in the current ranked ladder.
Do you also have a problem that 2/3 times you're going to get an easier match against most random players than the MMR reflects? It all evens out, the random players are not the bogeymen taking your MMR. If you're main goal is to improve you wouldn't really be hyper focused on your MMR anyway.
EPT
Now, I get cheesed a lot. Should we ban protoss, terran and zerg because they don't play the way I want them to play, eh? 
