|
On October 08 2021 10:05 IMSupervisor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2021 08:27 Yonnua wrote:On October 07 2021 02:48 [Phantom] wrote: After all no starcraft 2 game is played in "perfect" information. But working with limited information is a measure of skill, not luck determining the outcome. Players aren't putting their buildings in random locations at the highest level, they're choosing where to put them, and many of the times in GSL that a player "just missed" scouting something, it was indeed a conscious decision to move the hidden building just back a bit from its usual location, or a conscious decision by the scouting player to not scout as far as usual. Even if that wasn't a conscious decision in every case, it still wasn't a factor of luck, because it was an action by the player that determined it, not random chance. May I interest you in a game of skill? I'll hide a small prize in your room and you have 20 seconds to find it. Because I had to take an action to place it and you have to take actions to choose where to look, it therefor involves no element of chance right?
+ Show Spoiler +You forgot to mention that there might be no prize in the 1st place
|
On October 08 2021 11:53 Alpharius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2021 08:27 Yonnua wrote:On October 07 2021 02:48 [Phantom] wrote: After all no starcraft 2 game is played in "perfect" information. But working with limited information is a measure of skill, not luck determining the outcome. Players aren't putting their buildings in random locations at the highest level, they're choosing where to put them, and many of the times in GSL that a player "just missed" scouting something, it was indeed a conscious decision to move the hidden building just back a bit from its usual location, or a conscious decision by the scouting player to not scout as far as usual. Even if that wasn't a conscious decision in every case, it still wasn't a factor of luck, because it was an action by the player that determined it, not random chance. Proxy and finding proxy is determined by player's decisions, but those decisions are made mostly based on luck because there's limited time and information. You won't have enough time to cover all of the suspected spot, so luck is a big factor to determine whether it is found in time. Same can be said to rock, paper, scissor, result is based on player's decision, but the decision is mostly based on luck, because there's not enough information to rationalized it.
Rock/Paper/Scissors is less random than you think because they way our brains choose between the 3 is very far from random. There are a whole bunch of strategies revolving around our tendencies to not pick the same 3x in a row, for example.
About proxies, finding it should be a massive disadvantage for the proxy player, but missing it should not be an auto-loss for the scouting player, especially if they smell something is up by checking the main.
|
Northern Ireland20726 Posts
On October 08 2021 19:09 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2021 10:05 IMSupervisor wrote:On October 08 2021 08:27 Yonnua wrote:On October 07 2021 02:48 [Phantom] wrote: After all no starcraft 2 game is played in "perfect" information. But working with limited information is a measure of skill, not luck determining the outcome. Players aren't putting their buildings in random locations at the highest level, they're choosing where to put them, and many of the times in GSL that a player "just missed" scouting something, it was indeed a conscious decision to move the hidden building just back a bit from its usual location, or a conscious decision by the scouting player to not scout as far as usual. Even if that wasn't a conscious decision in every case, it still wasn't a factor of luck, because it was an action by the player that determined it, not random chance. May I interest you in a game of skill? I'll hide a small prize in your room and you have 20 seconds to find it. Because I had to take an action to place it and you have to take actions to choose where to look, it therefor involves no element of chance right? That's a pretty ridiculous analogy and I think you know it. If we played the game literally millions of times over the course of 11 years, then yes there would be a very clear set of strategies and counter-strategies to base it on. I think this thread just shows people have very little idea what 'luck' is and have bought their own excuses for when they don't win on ladder. To degrees, I don’t think people mind high-level mindgames because there is that element of gambit and counter-gambit, especially in a prep scenario like Code S or formerly in Proleague
Likewise playing peepmode with your regular buddies, you know tendencies and trying to break type to get an edge or predict someone else doing the same is quite a fun element.
Ladder, up until the very highest MMRs is a rotating list of unknown opponents, you’ve quite limited information outside of what’s standard in any given meta. The fun mindgame aspects don’t really come into play without knowing anything about the player.
Not the biggest deal in the world, whether one considers it luck or some combination of other factors, can be a little frustrating but hey. I remember getting 6 pooled on Frost by some bloke, looked at his build history and he just did it every game and if it was a 4 player map he gambled on the start location.
A perfectly legitimate but rather silly use of one’s time IMO but hey.
Playing Protoss v Random back in Wings day was rough, was it luck? When expanding was death against Protoss, but staying on one base vs Zerg was a slightly slower death and your initial pylon placements were critical, navigating that opener phase was either gambling or doing some kind of bad catch-all opener.
I can’t speak for everyone, I don’t think most’s concept of luck is complete random chance, it can encompass acting theoretically correctly under some framework of information and getting a bad outcome. Or by afflicted but misfortune of some kind that one had no realistic way to scrape the information together to avoid.
Imperfect information and gambits are a big part of what makes RTS compelling, there are probably ways to mitigate some frustrations though. WoL and HoTS had a longer early game/scouting phase before LotV compacted it plus more non-2 player maps.
|
On October 05 2021 04:58 watchlulu wrote: I think it's super hard to even define what "luck" is in SC2 and what isn't.
If a Widow Mine hits 15 of my Banelings it isn't lucky from my opponent, I just micro'd poorly.
If I scout a hidden dark-shrine because I feel like there's something fishy I just had a good feeling.
i disagree with that. it is humanly impossible to play a perfect sc2 game with 0 mistakes. everybody makes mistakes every game, thats just how it is. even maru slips up or mismicros countless times every single game. thats just due to human limitations and sc2s almost infinite skill ceiling. so it is indeed luck for the opponent if those slip ups that will inevitably occur do happen in more impactful situations. i could 'use' my slipup for not watching 2 scouting lings and losing them, but if i do use it for losing 20 mutas to 3 widow mines instead, then my opponent got lucky.
thats at least how i see it.
|
I think luck is present in every game and it's almost entirely due to the fog of war resulting in imperfect information. The decisions you make are all calculated guesses based on past experiences about the opponent's potential strategies and positioning. And since it's all a series of guesses, there's luck involved in terms of whether you guessed right more times than you guessed wrong.
As you get better, the luck factor is diminished because you're better at both gathering and interpreting scouting information. Your guesses are right much more often than they're wrong, but so are your opponent's guesses for the same reason. Luck becomes less of a factor than skill, but the luck is still there.
It should also be noted that while luck is a factor in every game, it can be overcome by superior skill. If you do get unlucky and can't get the information you need (it's impossible to scout every inch of the map and an opponent can often-times deny an early scout, forcing you to guess what they're doing), you can get blindsided by getting hit with cheese or a disadvantaged build order because you guessed wrong. But you can still win if your mechanical skill and knowledge of how to overcome said disadvantage outclasses your opponent.
The only way to remove luck entirely is to remove the fog of war (and no, I'm not advocating for that). In terms of the poll question about what percentage of games are decided on luck, I have no idea how to answer that. I think the percentage gets a lot lower as the rank gets higher though.
|
When you play vs luck, there is no chance
|
On October 08 2021 19:09 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2021 10:05 IMSupervisor wrote:On October 08 2021 08:27 Yonnua wrote:On October 07 2021 02:48 [Phantom] wrote: After all no starcraft 2 game is played in "perfect" information. But working with limited information is a measure of skill, not luck determining the outcome. Players aren't putting their buildings in random locations at the highest level, they're choosing where to put them, and many of the times in GSL that a player "just missed" scouting something, it was indeed a conscious decision to move the hidden building just back a bit from its usual location, or a conscious decision by the scouting player to not scout as far as usual. Even if that wasn't a conscious decision in every case, it still wasn't a factor of luck, because it was an action by the player that determined it, not random chance. May I interest you in a game of skill? I'll hide a small prize in your room and you have 20 seconds to find it. Because I had to take an action to place it and you have to take actions to choose where to look, it therefor involves no element of chance right? That's a pretty ridiculous analogy and I think you know it. If we played the game literally millions of times over the course of 11 years, then yes there would be a very clear set of strategies and counter-strategies to base it on. I think this thread just shows people have very little idea what 'luck' is and have bought their own excuses for when they don't win on ladder.
Please explain it to us then what you think luck means, because you are making no sense so far.
|
On October 10 2021 06:18 IMSupervisor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2021 19:09 Yonnua wrote:On October 08 2021 10:05 IMSupervisor wrote:On October 08 2021 08:27 Yonnua wrote:On October 07 2021 02:48 [Phantom] wrote: After all no starcraft 2 game is played in "perfect" information. But working with limited information is a measure of skill, not luck determining the outcome. Players aren't putting their buildings in random locations at the highest level, they're choosing where to put them, and many of the times in GSL that a player "just missed" scouting something, it was indeed a conscious decision to move the hidden building just back a bit from its usual location, or a conscious decision by the scouting player to not scout as far as usual. Even if that wasn't a conscious decision in every case, it still wasn't a factor of luck, because it was an action by the player that determined it, not random chance. May I interest you in a game of skill? I'll hide a small prize in your room and you have 20 seconds to find it. Because I had to take an action to place it and you have to take actions to choose where to look, it therefor involves no element of chance right? That's a pretty ridiculous analogy and I think you know it. If we played the game literally millions of times over the course of 11 years, then yes there would be a very clear set of strategies and counter-strategies to base it on. I think this thread just shows people have very little idea what 'luck' is and have bought their own excuses for when they don't win on ladder. Please explain it to us then what you think luck means, because you are making no sense so far.
Stop being rude - I think luck means literally the dictionary definition of luck: "success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions", and since all of the above is about your own actions, it shouldn't be considered luck.
|
Northern Ireland20726 Posts
On October 10 2021 07:28 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2021 06:18 IMSupervisor wrote:On October 08 2021 19:09 Yonnua wrote:On October 08 2021 10:05 IMSupervisor wrote:On October 08 2021 08:27 Yonnua wrote:On October 07 2021 02:48 [Phantom] wrote: After all no starcraft 2 game is played in "perfect" information. But working with limited information is a measure of skill, not luck determining the outcome. Players aren't putting their buildings in random locations at the highest level, they're choosing where to put them, and many of the times in GSL that a player "just missed" scouting something, it was indeed a conscious decision to move the hidden building just back a bit from its usual location, or a conscious decision by the scouting player to not scout as far as usual. Even if that wasn't a conscious decision in every case, it still wasn't a factor of luck, because it was an action by the player that determined it, not random chance. May I interest you in a game of skill? I'll hide a small prize in your room and you have 20 seconds to find it. Because I had to take an action to place it and you have to take actions to choose where to look, it therefor involves no element of chance right? That's a pretty ridiculous analogy and I think you know it. If we played the game literally millions of times over the course of 11 years, then yes there would be a very clear set of strategies and counter-strategies to base it on. I think this thread just shows people have very little idea what 'luck' is and have bought their own excuses for when they don't win on ladder. Please explain it to us then what you think luck means, because you are making no sense so far. Stop being rude - I think luck means literally the dictionary definition of luck: "success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions", and since all of the above is about your own actions, it shouldn't be considered luck. Your definition of luck seems, at odds with the dictionary definition.
Yours seems to be ‘well if you made a choice then the consequences of said choice aren’t explicable by luck, because you had other potential choices you could consciously make’.
Which isn’t the dictionary definition, nor I imagine the general conception of luck by most other people’s standards posting in this thread.
You’re saying ‘stop being rude’ while simultaneously saying any adverse result in someone’s gaming experience is entirely due to their deficiencies in picking randomness where it occurs.
Which isn’t luck, for some reason. People are rude for questioning your own personal definition of what luck is but saying everyone who has issues with what may or may not be issues with luck in the current state of the game is just bad isn’t rude.
Ok man go for it.
|
On October 10 2021 07:28 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2021 06:18 IMSupervisor wrote:On October 08 2021 19:09 Yonnua wrote:On October 08 2021 10:05 IMSupervisor wrote:On October 08 2021 08:27 Yonnua wrote:On October 07 2021 02:48 [Phantom] wrote: After all no starcraft 2 game is played in "perfect" information. But working with limited information is a measure of skill, not luck determining the outcome. Players aren't putting their buildings in random locations at the highest level, they're choosing where to put them, and many of the times in GSL that a player "just missed" scouting something, it was indeed a conscious decision to move the hidden building just back a bit from its usual location, or a conscious decision by the scouting player to not scout as far as usual. Even if that wasn't a conscious decision in every case, it still wasn't a factor of luck, because it was an action by the player that determined it, not random chance. May I interest you in a game of skill? I'll hide a small prize in your room and you have 20 seconds to find it. Because I had to take an action to place it and you have to take actions to choose where to look, it therefor involves no element of chance right? That's a pretty ridiculous analogy and I think you know it. If we played the game literally millions of times over the course of 11 years, then yes there would be a very clear set of strategies and counter-strategies to base it on. I think this thread just shows people have very little idea what 'luck' is and have bought their own excuses for when they don't win on ladder. Please explain it to us then what you think luck means, because you are making no sense so far. Stop being rude - I think luck means literally the dictionary definition of luck: "success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions", and since all of the above is about your own actions, it shouldn't be considered luck.
I would agree with you if there was no fog of war or if the game wasn't real time. But, each action comes at the exclusion of all others so we don't get to make infinite actions to account for all possibilities, we have to pick and choose what kind of risk / reward we want to take on before the game starts. The cost of scouting also impacts on the outcome of the game and if you scout the map for proxies you'll be behind an opponent who went 3 quick bases and this is a decision you have to make blindly with nothing to go on. That to me means there is chance involved in the outcome, and therefor by definition, the outcome of the game to some degree includes elements of luck. OP is asking to what degree of the outcome is based on these compromised choices we make when we face people we don't know in a random ladder game.
|
I don't believe luck has any role in the game. There aren't things like critical strike in the game.
Are you lucky if you put a bunch of money into a penny stock that goes crazy? Or unlucky if you put your money in a big corporation that goes under do a world wide depression? In both cases, you choose to invest in companies who's success was out of your control.
It is all about risk management. All of us take risks, whether is scouting your opponent and then doing an all-in, or taking three bases after scouting. Or taking a hidden expansion.
Whether or not those pay off depends not on luck, but on your skill and that of your opponent. So much of Starcraft can feel like luck if you choose a playstyle that works based on the skill your opponent, as so many aggressive and economic builds do.
Even if you make a good read after scouting sometimes, there is always a chance the opponent may scout and adjust. It's all about skill, and that goes far beyond micro and macro.
|
On October 10 2021 11:23 BronzeKnee wrote: I don't believe luck has any role in the game. There aren't things like critical strike in the game.
Are you lucky if you put a bunch of money into penny stock that goes crazy? Or unlucky if you put your money in a big corporation that goes under do a world wide depression? In both cases, you choose to invest in companies who's success was out of your control.
It is all about risk management. All of us take risks, whether is scouting your opponent and then doing an all-in, or taking three bases after scouting. Or taking a hidden expansion.
Whether or not those pay off depends not on luck, but on the skill of your opponent. So much of Starcraft can feel like luck if you choose a playstyle that works based on the skill your opponent, as so many aggressive and economic builds do.
Even if you make a good read after scouting sometimes, there is always a chance the opponent may scout and adjust.
What about spawn positions and Terran add-ons?
|
On October 10 2021 11:44 IMSupervisor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2021 11:23 BronzeKnee wrote: I don't believe luck has any role in the game. There aren't things like critical strike in the game.
Are you lucky if you put a bunch of money into penny stock that goes crazy? Or unlucky if you put your money in a big corporation that goes under do a world wide depression? In both cases, you choose to invest in companies who's success was out of your control.
It is all about risk management. All of us take risks, whether is scouting your opponent and then doing an all-in, or taking three bases after scouting. Or taking a hidden expansion.
Whether or not those pay off depends not on luck, but on the skill of your opponent. So much of Starcraft can feel like luck if you choose a playstyle that works based on the skill your opponent, as so many aggressive and economic builds do.
Even if you make a good read after scouting sometimes, there is always a chance the opponent may scout and adjust. What about spawn positions and Terran add-ons?
What about stubbing your finger playing basketball before the game? What about your opponent's wireless mouse running out of batteries?
Things are going to happen to you in life, and they may be out of your control. But chance has nothing to do with batteries running out of your opponents mouse, it is something under the control of your opponent. That has nothing to do with luck, even though it may feel lucky to you. And if you consider things outside of your control going well to be lucky, then we have different definitions.
There are a lot of variables that can impact a game of Starcraft. I consider luck to be pure chance, like a roll of the dice or a 50% critical strike hitting or not.
When I spawn, I know which side my add-ons will be on, and I adjust my build because of that. My opponent should know too, and should adjust their build because of that also.
Or maybe they decide not to because they think I won't... it's all about risk management: Even if you make a good read after scouting sometimes, there is always a chance the opponent may scout and adjust. That isn't chance, it's all about skill, and that goes far beyond micro and macro.
|
This is kind of race dependent. I'm not whining or anything but from Zerg perspective, the "luck" factor is close to 0 just because they have exceptional scouting tools. Take serral for example, watch any of his replays, he basically plays with maphacks and one of the main factors contributing to his success. TvP and PvP have some slight randomness involved.
|
Mexico2169 Posts
On October 10 2021 11:23 BronzeKnee wrote: I don't believe luck has any role in the game. There aren't things like critical strike in the game.
Are you lucky if you put a bunch of money into a penny stock that goes crazy? Or unlucky if you put your money in a big corporation that goes under do a world wide depression? In both cases, you choose to invest in companies who's success was out of your control.
It is all about risk management. All of us take risks, whether is scouting your opponent and then doing an all-in, or taking three bases after scouting. Or taking a hidden expansion.
Whether or not those pay off depends not on luck, but on your skill and that of your opponent. So much of Starcraft can feel like luck if you choose a playstyle that works based on the skill your opponent, as so many aggressive and economic builds do.
Even if you make a good read after scouting sometimes, there is always a chance the opponent may scout and adjust. It's all about skill, and that goes far beyond micro and macro.
While there are not stuff like critical or like 10% chance of missing an attack or anything like that....
You however said in all games there are risk, and If there are risk there are chances and if there are chances there is luck.
I think a couple of people here are saying that if you took may type of action it's not luck, but I don't see it that way. If you go to the park and walk around and a bird shits on you, for me that would be bad luck, but in your definition that wouldn't be luck because you decided to go out and walk, which is not really true.
|
On October 10 2021 07:48 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2021 07:28 Yonnua wrote:On October 10 2021 06:18 IMSupervisor wrote:On October 08 2021 19:09 Yonnua wrote:On October 08 2021 10:05 IMSupervisor wrote:On October 08 2021 08:27 Yonnua wrote:On October 07 2021 02:48 [Phantom] wrote: After all no starcraft 2 game is played in "perfect" information. But working with limited information is a measure of skill, not luck determining the outcome. Players aren't putting their buildings in random locations at the highest level, they're choosing where to put them, and many of the times in GSL that a player "just missed" scouting something, it was indeed a conscious decision to move the hidden building just back a bit from its usual location, or a conscious decision by the scouting player to not scout as far as usual. Even if that wasn't a conscious decision in every case, it still wasn't a factor of luck, because it was an action by the player that determined it, not random chance. May I interest you in a game of skill? I'll hide a small prize in your room and you have 20 seconds to find it. Because I had to take an action to place it and you have to take actions to choose where to look, it therefor involves no element of chance right? That's a pretty ridiculous analogy and I think you know it. If we played the game literally millions of times over the course of 11 years, then yes there would be a very clear set of strategies and counter-strategies to base it on. I think this thread just shows people have very little idea what 'luck' is and have bought their own excuses for when they don't win on ladder. Please explain it to us then what you think luck means, because you are making no sense so far. Stop being rude - I think luck means literally the dictionary definition of luck: "success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions", and since all of the above is about your own actions, it shouldn't be considered luck. Your definition of luck seems, at odds with the dictionary definition. Yours seems to be ‘well if you made a choice then the consequences of said choice aren’t explicable by luck, because you had other potential choices you could consciously make’. Which isn’t the dictionary definition, nor I imagine the general conception of luck by most other people’s standards posting in this thread. You’re saying ‘stop being rude’ while simultaneously saying any adverse result in someone’s gaming experience is entirely due to their deficiencies in picking randomness where it occurs. Which isn’t luck, for some reason. People are rude for questioning your own personal definition of what luck is but saying everyone who has issues with what may or may not be issues with luck in the current state of the game is just bad isn’t rude. Ok man go for it.
If you'd rather make personal attacks than read what I said, I think that speaks volumes about you, and obviously the "general conception" doesn't disagree with me, because the poll overwhelmingly says ladder games aren't decided by luck.
I was very clear it's not about just some random choice being made, it's about the strategic decisions being made, which most of the time these are above silver league - literally the definition above is saying that isn't luck, it couldn't be more explicit. If you aren't happy with the way that language defines the word, substitute your own definition, instead of just leaning on poor scouting and bad strategy automatically becoming luck because it didn't go the way you wanted.
|
Northern Ireland20726 Posts
I’m failing to see any kind of personal attack in my post, indeed you seem to have skipped out quite a lot of what I said. If so apologies, I don’t think there was any there perhaps other posters may disagree with me.
Assuming everyone who voted in the 0-10% category all consider the percentage of ladder games decided by luck as zero, then yes that’s the majority, although even then it’s not any overwhelmingly crushing.
Is losing to a blind 6 pool on a 4 player map unlucky or just bad play for not getting the scout? Or a failure to anticipate a silly 3 sided coinflip that is well, pretty bad game theory unless you’re playing an opponent who’s way better than you so a 33% spawn guess is better as a strategy than playing something less mental.
Doesn’t mean luck is the prevailing factor in ladder by any means, but unless one’s usage of the word is almost exclusively limited to actual rng, then I find it hard to see how it’s a realm entirely devoid of luck.
I don’t even actively play so no skin off my back who does what on ladder.
I do think it’s too viable to just exploit an informational disparity and do blind cheeses every game all the way up the ladder, whereupon you know where your opponent is an do the cheese, and they’re more in the dark trying to account for all sorts of opportunities.
Not a luck thing, IMO although can be extremely frustrating, and can feel similar to losing a game of chance even though it isn’t. I assume there’s a fair bit of conflation of the two amongst players.
|
Mexico2169 Posts
Honestly the takeway for me is there a lot of people here that believe that any person with hard work can be a famous billionare and if you aren't you haven't worked hard enough.
Because if they truly believe luck only influences 0-10 percent of such a complex game like starcraft, SPECIFICALLY in a Best of 1 scenario, agaisn't a random player on a random race on a random map on random external conditions, then they must apply that logic to the rest of their lifes, right?
Again, if you go outside and a bird shits on you, that's not luck according to them because you made the decition to go walk outside, you should get gud instead.
I think most people here think lucks means litterally RNG like the above person said, and that there must be defined chances (10% critical hit chance, 5%-20% critical hit damage, 3% chance of parrying etc), and while that is indeed luck, that's not at all the complete definition or spectrum. Like the poster above said what if it's a four player map and a build order win? There no explanation other than luck. And that doesn't mean your destiny is out of your control, or that you didn't make a concious decision to expand early and the enemy to rush, that did happen, but it doesn't mean luck was not involved, specially since you have no way of knowing what the enemy is doing. You tok a risk, and they did too, which has a certain ammount of chance of succeding and you could say that wether or not you got the "good chance" or the "bad" chance it was luck. And again you can micro or do this or that to alter the chance percentages, but not remove them completely.
|
On October 12 2021 05:22 [Phantom] wrote: Honestly the takeway for me is there a lot of people here that believe that any person with hard work can be a famous billionare and if you aren't you haven't worked hard enough.
Because if they truly believe luck only influences 0-10 percent of such a complex game like starcraft, SPECIFICALLY in a Best of 1 scenario, agaisn't a random player on a random race on a random map on random external conditions, then they must apply that logic to the rest of their lifes, right?
Again, if you go outside and a bird shits on you, that's not luck according to them because you made the decition to go walk outside, you should get gud instead.
I think most people here think lucks means litterally RNG like the above person said, and that there must be defined chances (10% critical hit chance, 5%-20% critical hit damage, 3% chance of parrying etc), and while that is indeed luck, that's not at all the complete definition or spectrum. Like the poster above said what if it's a four player map and a build order win? There no explanation other than luck. And that doesn't mean your destiny is out of your control, or that you didn't make a concious decision to expand early and the enemy to rush, that did happen, but it doesn't mean luck was not involved, specially since you have no way of knowing what the enemy is doing. You tok a risk, and they did too, which has a certain ammount of chance of succeding and you could say that wether or not you got the "good chance" or the "bad" chance it was luck. And again you can micro or do this or that to alter the chance percentages, but not remove them completely.
Its very interesting for me to come back to this thread to see so many argue my same point as me on how luck is a very small factor in sc2.
From your perspective it might seem like a "blind" 6 pool, but its not random what build your opponent chooses its a planned strategy in a strategy game. As a comparison lets take basketball, I can dribble right or I can dribble left, if the opponent catches me I lose but if they go the wrong way I win is it luck? The strategy game starts before the match, by your defition me going CC first and losing would be bad luck, I would call that a bad strategy. If starcraft 2 was really filled with random luck factors then pro players wouldn't win consistently against lesser players. There is tons and tons of statistic that proves starcraft 2 is not luck based, if it was the pro scene and tournament results would be totally different, no player would be consistent.
Your arguements about birds and IRL are blatant strawman arguements, no one here is saying that getting shit on by a bird is not bad luck. Are you fighting the bird in a one on one game about not getting shit on where you are strategically trying to outmaneouver eachother because if the answer is yes then you are in the wrong forum about the wrong game.
Some people view everything that goes bad for them as bad luck, you got a disadvantage because of build orders, bad luck. You got flanked right when moving out with your army, bad luck, you were out of position when the drop came in bad luck, the enemy finished his upgrades before you bad luck. None of it is bad luck, he made better decisions than you, its just that you find that out now.
Consider Taeja by what magic did he consistently magically make exactly the right moves to win without scouting? He is famous for his magical game sense that made him seem invincible, he read the flow of the game and the mind of his opponents like no other player has ever done and if you want to tell me that he just happend to be lucky 50 times in a row. Lets just agree to disagree
|
Yeah if you're getting a build order loss while having to pick your own blind it's like basic gambling, luck based. Then there is all the rest that comes into play that is not just luck based. But having to pick a build order blind and getting advantage or disadvantage based on that is part of the luck factor, worst case is 50/50 types of gambles where you win or lose depending on whether opponent (already) did this or that. If you had opportunities to scout but didn't take them and didn't do anything with what could have been used to scout, then it's a mistake. If scouting involves a lot of risk because losing the scout can be critical, again luck comes into play depending on the info you could have already had or not about what's in the fog of war where the scout goes. etc
|
|
|
|