• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:03
CEST 18:03
KST 01:03
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles2[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China8Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?14FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL SC uni coach streams logging into betting site BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 Preliminary Maps
Tourneys
[BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2024! Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 679 users

The impact of luck on ladder games - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 All
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25046 Posts
October 11 2021 23:03 GMT
#41
On October 12 2021 07:31 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2021 05:22 [Phantom] wrote:
Honestly the takeway for me is there a lot of people here that believe that any person with hard work can be a famous billionare and if you aren't you haven't worked hard enough.

Because if they truly believe luck only influences 0-10 percent of such a complex game like starcraft, SPECIFICALLY in a Best of 1 scenario, agaisn't a random player on a random race on a random map on random external conditions, then they must apply that logic to the rest of their lifes, right?

Again, if you go outside and a bird shits on you, that's not luck according to them because you made the decition to go walk outside, you should get gud instead.

I think most people here think lucks means litterally RNG like the above person said, and that there must be defined chances (10% critical hit chance, 5%-20% critical hit damage, 3% chance of parrying etc), and while that is indeed luck, that's not at all the complete definition or spectrum. Like the poster above said what if it's a four player map and a build order win? There no explanation other than luck. And that doesn't mean your destiny is out of your control, or that you didn't make a concious decision to expand early and the enemy to rush, that did happen, but it doesn't mean luck was not involved, specially since you have no way of knowing what the enemy is doing. You tok a risk, and they did too, which has a certain ammount of chance of succeding and you could say that wether or not you got the "good chance" or the "bad" chance it was luck. And again you can micro or do this or that to alter the chance percentages, but not remove them completely.


Its very interesting for me to come back to this thread to see so many argue my same point as me on how luck is a very small factor in sc2.

From your perspective it might seem like a "blind" 6 pool, but its not random what build your opponent chooses its a planned strategy in a strategy game. As a comparison lets take basketball, I can dribble right or I can dribble left, if the opponent catches me I lose but if they go the wrong way I win is it luck? The strategy game starts before the match, by your defition me going CC first and losing would be bad luck, I would call that a bad strategy. If starcraft 2 was really filled with random luck factors then pro players wouldn't win consistently against lesser players. There is tons and tons of statistic that proves starcraft 2 is not luck based, if it was the pro scene and tournament results would be totally different, no player would be consistent.

Your arguements about birds and IRL are blatant strawman arguements, no one here is saying that getting shit on by a bird is not bad luck. Are you fighting the bird in a one on one game about not getting shit on where you are strategically trying to outmaneouver eachother because if the answer is yes then you are in the wrong forum about the wrong game.

Some people view everything that goes bad for them as bad luck, you got a disadvantage because of build orders, bad luck. You got flanked right when moving out with your army, bad luck, you were out of position when the drop came in bad luck, the enemy finished his upgrades before you bad luck. None of it is bad luck, he made better decisions than you, its just that you find that out now.

Consider Taeja by what magic did he consistently magically make exactly the right moves to win without scouting? He is famous for his magical game sense that made him seem invincible, he read the flow of the game and the mind of his opponents like no other player has ever done and if you want to tell me that he just happend to be lucky 50 times in a row. Lets just agree to disagree

We’re literally talking ladder, not the innate game sense of a player of the calibre of Taeja, who IMO is in the top 5 of best players to touch the game, but in most other people’s estimation at least 15-20

Like cool your ‘better decision’ is to blind cheese on a 2 player map where you know where I spawn, and if my scouting misses it you win.

Cool, let’s not pretend there aren’t players who just coinflip every single game on ladder, especially when spawning locations are already known.

Like it’s ridiculous every other response is some ‘git gud’ variant, but hey let’s not question the chops of people who just blind cheese every single game.





'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
[Phantom]
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
Mexico2170 Posts
October 12 2021 04:38 GMT
#42
On October 12 2021 07:31 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2021 05:22 [Phantom] wrote:
Honestly the takeway for me is there a lot of people here that believe that any person with hard work can be a famous billionare and if you aren't you haven't worked hard enough.

Because if they truly believe luck only influences 0-10 percent of such a complex game like starcraft, SPECIFICALLY in a Best of 1 scenario, agaisn't a random player on a random race on a random map on random external conditions, then they must apply that logic to the rest of their lifes, right?

Again, if you go outside and a bird shits on you, that's not luck according to them because you made the decition to go walk outside, you should get gud instead.

I think most people here think lucks means litterally RNG like the above person said, and that there must be defined chances (10% critical hit chance, 5%-20% critical hit damage, 3% chance of parrying etc), and while that is indeed luck, that's not at all the complete definition or spectrum. Like the poster above said what if it's a four player map and a build order win? There no explanation other than luck. And that doesn't mean your destiny is out of your control, or that you didn't make a concious decision to expand early and the enemy to rush, that did happen, but it doesn't mean luck was not involved, specially since you have no way of knowing what the enemy is doing. You tok a risk, and they did too, which has a certain ammount of chance of succeding and you could say that wether or not you got the "good chance" or the "bad" chance it was luck. And again you can micro or do this or that to alter the chance percentages, but not remove them completely.


Its very interesting for me to come back to this thread to see so many argue my same point as me on how luck is a very small factor in sc2.

From your perspective it might seem like a "blind" 6 pool, but its not random what build your opponent chooses its a planned strategy in a strategy game. As a comparison lets take basketball, I can dribble right or I can dribble left, if the opponent catches me I lose but if they go the wrong way I win is it luck? The strategy game starts before the match, by your defition me going CC first and losing would be bad luck, I would call that a bad strategy. If starcraft 2 was really filled with random luck factors then pro players wouldn't win consistently against lesser players. There is tons and tons of statistic that proves starcraft 2 is not luck based, if it was the pro scene and tournament results would be totally different, no player would be consistent.

Your arguements about birds and IRL are blatant strawman arguements, no one here is saying that getting shit on by a bird is not bad luck. Are you fighting the bird in a one on one game about not getting shit on where you are strategically trying to outmaneouver eachother because if the answer is yes then you are in the wrong forum about the wrong game.

Some people view everything that goes bad for them as bad luck, you got a disadvantage because of build orders, bad luck. You got flanked right when moving out with your army, bad luck, you were out of position when the drop came in bad luck, the enemy finished his upgrades before you bad luck. None of it is bad luck, he made better decisions than you, its just that you find that out now.

Consider Taeja by what magic did he consistently magically make exactly the right moves to win without scouting? He is famous for his magical game sense that made him seem invincible, he read the flow of the game and the mind of his opponents like no other player has ever done and if you want to tell me that he just happend to be lucky 50 times in a row. Lets just agree to disagree


I never said SC2 was completely luck based though, I agree it isn't. I don't agree it's not a big factor though, specially in ladder games.

As you say skill has a big influence. Most influence even, but that doesn't mean the better player wins all the time. Even though I was focusing on ladder, you can see it in pro games too. Maru is way better than Armani, right? Yet he has dropped games to him.

Maru is way better than any player he will face on ladder that's not a pro right? And yet he doesn't have 100% Winrate on ladder either.
WriterTeamLiquid Staff writer since 2014 @Mortal_Phantom
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-12 10:30:47
October 12 2021 09:56 GMT
#43
On October 12 2021 08:03 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2021 07:31 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 12 2021 05:22 [Phantom] wrote:
Honestly the takeway for me is there a lot of people here that believe that any person with hard work can be a famous billionare and if you aren't you haven't worked hard enough.

Because if they truly believe luck only influences 0-10 percent of such a complex game like starcraft, SPECIFICALLY in a Best of 1 scenario, agaisn't a random player on a random race on a random map on random external conditions, then they must apply that logic to the rest of their lifes, right?

Again, if you go outside and a bird shits on you, that's not luck according to them because you made the decition to go walk outside, you should get gud instead.

I think most people here think lucks means litterally RNG like the above person said, and that there must be defined chances (10% critical hit chance, 5%-20% critical hit damage, 3% chance of parrying etc), and while that is indeed luck, that's not at all the complete definition or spectrum. Like the poster above said what if it's a four player map and a build order win? There no explanation other than luck. And that doesn't mean your destiny is out of your control, or that you didn't make a concious decision to expand early and the enemy to rush, that did happen, but it doesn't mean luck was not involved, specially since you have no way of knowing what the enemy is doing. You tok a risk, and they did too, which has a certain ammount of chance of succeding and you could say that wether or not you got the "good chance" or the "bad" chance it was luck. And again you can micro or do this or that to alter the chance percentages, but not remove them completely.


Its very interesting for me to come back to this thread to see so many argue my same point as me on how luck is a very small factor in sc2.

From your perspective it might seem like a "blind" 6 pool, but its not random what build your opponent chooses its a planned strategy in a strategy game. As a comparison lets take basketball, I can dribble right or I can dribble left, if the opponent catches me I lose but if they go the wrong way I win is it luck? The strategy game starts before the match, by your defition me going CC first and losing would be bad luck, I would call that a bad strategy. If starcraft 2 was really filled with random luck factors then pro players wouldn't win consistently against lesser players. There is tons and tons of statistic that proves starcraft 2 is not luck based, if it was the pro scene and tournament results would be totally different, no player would be consistent.

Your arguements about birds and IRL are blatant strawman arguements, no one here is saying that getting shit on by a bird is not bad luck. Are you fighting the bird in a one on one game about not getting shit on where you are strategically trying to outmaneouver eachother because if the answer is yes then you are in the wrong forum about the wrong game.

Some people view everything that goes bad for them as bad luck, you got a disadvantage because of build orders, bad luck. You got flanked right when moving out with your army, bad luck, you were out of position when the drop came in bad luck, the enemy finished his upgrades before you bad luck. None of it is bad luck, he made better decisions than you, its just that you find that out now.

Consider Taeja by what magic did he consistently magically make exactly the right moves to win without scouting? He is famous for his magical game sense that made him seem invincible, he read the flow of the game and the mind of his opponents like no other player has ever done and if you want to tell me that he just happend to be lucky 50 times in a row. Lets just agree to disagree

We’re literally talking ladder, not the innate game sense of a player of the calibre of Taeja, who IMO is in the top 5 of best players to touch the game, but in most other people’s estimation at least 15-20

Like cool your ‘better decision’ is to blind cheese on a 2 player map where you know where I spawn, and if my scouting misses it you win.

Cool, let’s not pretend there aren’t players who just coinflip every single game on ladder, especially when spawning locations are already known.

Like it’s ridiculous every other response is some ‘git gud’ variant, but hey let’s not question the chops of people who just blind cheese every single game.

Taeja is playing the same game we are, sc2 played by Taeja and sc2 played us doesn't have different luck factors. Thats like saying soccer in low level has tons of luck while soccer in high level has no luck. If one person is a god proves its not luck, it is skill. If it looks like luck but some people win consistently that is a very big hint that it isn't luck, they just see something you don't which is a skill.

It all depends how you define skill, is all aspects of starcraft 2 is equal in value than yes cheeser that wins are more skilled then you. But if you value macro/micro more than strategic decisions obviously you are probably more skilled in those avenues of the game.

In most sports there are risky plays, that will backfire hugely if the bet doesn't pay off. Does that mean all traditional sports are luck based? Because there are different ways/strategies to play games, some play like robots systematically and intellectually sound while others play wild and risky. No matter what the outcome blaming luck in any sport says more about your outlook than anything else.


On October 12 2021 13:38 [Phantom] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2021 07:31 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 12 2021 05:22 [Phantom] wrote:
Honestly the takeway for me is there a lot of people here that believe that any person with hard work can be a famous billionare and if you aren't you haven't worked hard enough.

Because if they truly believe luck only influences 0-10 percent of such a complex game like starcraft, SPECIFICALLY in a Best of 1 scenario, agaisn't a random player on a random race on a random map on random external conditions, then they must apply that logic to the rest of their lifes, right?

Again, if you go outside and a bird shits on you, that's not luck according to them because you made the decition to go walk outside, you should get gud instead.

I think most people here think lucks means litterally RNG like the above person said, and that there must be defined chances (10% critical hit chance, 5%-20% critical hit damage, 3% chance of parrying etc), and while that is indeed luck, that's not at all the complete definition or spectrum. Like the poster above said what if it's a four player map and a build order win? There no explanation other than luck. And that doesn't mean your destiny is out of your control, or that you didn't make a concious decision to expand early and the enemy to rush, that did happen, but it doesn't mean luck was not involved, specially since you have no way of knowing what the enemy is doing. You tok a risk, and they did too, which has a certain ammount of chance of succeding and you could say that wether or not you got the "good chance" or the "bad" chance it was luck. And again you can micro or do this or that to alter the chance percentages, but not remove them completely.


Its very interesting for me to come back to this thread to see so many argue my same point as me on how luck is a very small factor in sc2.

From your perspective it might seem like a "blind" 6 pool, but its not random what build your opponent chooses its a planned strategy in a strategy game. As a comparison lets take basketball, I can dribble right or I can dribble left, if the opponent catches me I lose but if they go the wrong way I win is it luck? The strategy game starts before the match, by your defition me going CC first and losing would be bad luck, I would call that a bad strategy. If starcraft 2 was really filled with random luck factors then pro players wouldn't win consistently against lesser players. There is tons and tons of statistic that proves starcraft 2 is not luck based, if it was the pro scene and tournament results would be totally different, no player would be consistent.

Your arguements about birds and IRL are blatant strawman arguements, no one here is saying that getting shit on by a bird is not bad luck. Are you fighting the bird in a one on one game about not getting shit on where you are strategically trying to outmaneouver eachother because if the answer is yes then you are in the wrong forum about the wrong game.

Some people view everything that goes bad for them as bad luck, you got a disadvantage because of build orders, bad luck. You got flanked right when moving out with your army, bad luck, you were out of position when the drop came in bad luck, the enemy finished his upgrades before you bad luck. None of it is bad luck, he made better decisions than you, its just that you find that out now.

Consider Taeja by what magic did he consistently magically make exactly the right moves to win without scouting? He is famous for his magical game sense that made him seem invincible, he read the flow of the game and the mind of his opponents like no other player has ever done and if you want to tell me that he just happend to be lucky 50 times in a row. Lets just agree to disagree


I never said SC2 was completely luck based though, I agree it isn't. I don't agree it's not a big factor though, specially in ladder games.

As you say skill has a big influence. Most influence even, but that doesn't mean the better player wins all the time. Even though I was focusing on ladder, you can see it in pro games too. Maru is way better than Armani, right? Yet he has dropped games to him.

Maru is way better than any player he will face on ladder that's not a pro right? And yet he doesn't have 100% Winrate on ladder either.


Well almost all pro-team/pro in any sport no matter how dominant have lost to an underdog, does that mean all traditional sports are luck based by a big factor? Losing to lesser players/teams happens all over the world all the time in literally every single sport, if you claim to be objective then you would need to agree that all sports are luck based.

Like many others have written managing risk is a skill, and that is true for all sports. Is this pass in soccer too risky for the possible outcome or is it worth it? All games have some kind of innate risk taking that is part of the game, that doesn't mean you can blame luck when you lose. Well if that guy didn't intercept my pass we would have won, this game is all luck


EDIT
I will add that these theoretical ladder games in a vacuum doesn't exist. When you choose your build you can factor in what league you are in, what the meta is and so on. If you choose to do a proxy void ray all in two weeks after uThermal posted a popular guide on how to counter that cheese when you lose you cant really blame your bad luck. If I go greedy CC first build and die to early aggression I can't blame bad luck. Just like in pro play there is always factor to consider when choosing your build, in some leagues its literally 60% cheeses on ladder, if you go greedy and lose its on you.

The question I want to ask you is what is your goal with your ladder play? If its winning every single game/reducing risk/crushing cheese then there are builds for you to choose that lets you be safe but you will be behind against economic openers. If your goal to is to climb the ladder and win 50+% of your games then choosing a bit risker openings knowing you might lose to cheese is an option. An option you choose willingly risking losses to some strategies, that is not your bad luck, you are risking loss against cheese to get ahead against players that are safe. When you get the short end of the stick you blame luck and yet when you win partly due to a build order advantage you call it skill?

Also it is easy to fall for the trap of seeing the result of games being luck, looking at Maru vs Armani on aligulac for example. There is 17% chance for Armani to win against Maru, maybe you think "wow if Armani wins he got lucky" but thats not how chance works, it only shows the likelihood for that to happen not indicating that its luck. Maru isn't equally skilled all the time, he might sleep bad, be emotionally vulnerable, just have a bad day and face Armani when he is on his game and at that point Armani winning can mean he is better than Maru that day. Pro gamers aren't robots, they aren't the same equally skilled players all the time, form varies a lot, that is not luck that is just life.
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-12 13:07:46
October 12 2021 13:04 GMT
#44
On October 12 2021 18:56 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2021 08:03 WombaT wrote:
On October 12 2021 07:31 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 12 2021 05:22 [Phantom] wrote:
Honestly the takeway for me is there a lot of people here that believe that any person with hard work can be a famous billionare and if you aren't you haven't worked hard enough.

Because if they truly believe luck only influences 0-10 percent of such a complex game like starcraft, SPECIFICALLY in a Best of 1 scenario, agaisn't a random player on a random race on a random map on random external conditions, then they must apply that logic to the rest of their lifes, right?

Again, if you go outside and a bird shits on you, that's not luck according to them because you made the decition to go walk outside, you should get gud instead.

I think most people here think lucks means litterally RNG like the above person said, and that there must be defined chances (10% critical hit chance, 5%-20% critical hit damage, 3% chance of parrying etc), and while that is indeed luck, that's not at all the complete definition or spectrum. Like the poster above said what if it's a four player map and a build order win? There no explanation other than luck. And that doesn't mean your destiny is out of your control, or that you didn't make a concious decision to expand early and the enemy to rush, that did happen, but it doesn't mean luck was not involved, specially since you have no way of knowing what the enemy is doing. You tok a risk, and they did too, which has a certain ammount of chance of succeding and you could say that wether or not you got the "good chance" or the "bad" chance it was luck. And again you can micro or do this or that to alter the chance percentages, but not remove them completely.


Its very interesting for me to come back to this thread to see so many argue my same point as me on how luck is a very small factor in sc2.

From your perspective it might seem like a "blind" 6 pool, but its not random what build your opponent chooses its a planned strategy in a strategy game. As a comparison lets take basketball, I can dribble right or I can dribble left, if the opponent catches me I lose but if they go the wrong way I win is it luck? The strategy game starts before the match, by your defition me going CC first and losing would be bad luck, I would call that a bad strategy. If starcraft 2 was really filled with random luck factors then pro players wouldn't win consistently against lesser players. There is tons and tons of statistic that proves starcraft 2 is not luck based, if it was the pro scene and tournament results would be totally different, no player would be consistent.

Your arguements about birds and IRL are blatant strawman arguements, no one here is saying that getting shit on by a bird is not bad luck. Are you fighting the bird in a one on one game about not getting shit on where you are strategically trying to outmaneouver eachother because if the answer is yes then you are in the wrong forum about the wrong game.

Some people view everything that goes bad for them as bad luck, you got a disadvantage because of build orders, bad luck. You got flanked right when moving out with your army, bad luck, you were out of position when the drop came in bad luck, the enemy finished his upgrades before you bad luck. None of it is bad luck, he made better decisions than you, its just that you find that out now.

Consider Taeja by what magic did he consistently magically make exactly the right moves to win without scouting? He is famous for his magical game sense that made him seem invincible, he read the flow of the game and the mind of his opponents like no other player has ever done and if you want to tell me that he just happend to be lucky 50 times in a row. Lets just agree to disagree

We’re literally talking ladder, not the innate game sense of a player of the calibre of Taeja, who IMO is in the top 5 of best players to touch the game, but in most other people’s estimation at least 15-20

Like cool your ‘better decision’ is to blind cheese on a 2 player map where you know where I spawn, and if my scouting misses it you win.

Cool, let’s not pretend there aren’t players who just coinflip every single game on ladder, especially when spawning locations are already known.

Like it’s ridiculous every other response is some ‘git gud’ variant, but hey let’s not question the chops of people who just blind cheese every single game.

Taeja is playing the same game we are, sc2 played by Taeja and sc2 played us doesn't have different luck factors. Thats like saying soccer in low level has tons of luck while soccer in high level has no luck. If one person is a god proves its not luck, it is skill. If it looks like luck but some people win consistently that is a very big hint that it isn't luck, they just see something you don't which is a skill.

It all depends how you define skill, is all aspects of starcraft 2 is equal in value than yes cheeser that wins are more skilled then you. But if you value macro/micro more than strategic decisions obviously you are probably more skilled in those avenues of the game.

In most sports there are risky plays, that will backfire hugely if the bet doesn't pay off. Does that mean all traditional sports are luck based? Because there are different ways/strategies to play games, some play like robots systematically and intellectually sound while others play wild and risky. No matter what the outcome blaming luck in any sport says more about your outlook than anything else.


Show nested quote +
On October 12 2021 13:38 [Phantom] wrote:
On October 12 2021 07:31 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 12 2021 05:22 [Phantom] wrote:
Honestly the takeway for me is there a lot of people here that believe that any person with hard work can be a famous billionare and if you aren't you haven't worked hard enough.

Because if they truly believe luck only influences 0-10 percent of such a complex game like starcraft, SPECIFICALLY in a Best of 1 scenario, agaisn't a random player on a random race on a random map on random external conditions, then they must apply that logic to the rest of their lifes, right?

Again, if you go outside and a bird shits on you, that's not luck according to them because you made the decition to go walk outside, you should get gud instead.

I think most people here think lucks means litterally RNG like the above person said, and that there must be defined chances (10% critical hit chance, 5%-20% critical hit damage, 3% chance of parrying etc), and while that is indeed luck, that's not at all the complete definition or spectrum. Like the poster above said what if it's a four player map and a build order win? There no explanation other than luck. And that doesn't mean your destiny is out of your control, or that you didn't make a concious decision to expand early and the enemy to rush, that did happen, but it doesn't mean luck was not involved, specially since you have no way of knowing what the enemy is doing. You tok a risk, and they did too, which has a certain ammount of chance of succeding and you could say that wether or not you got the "good chance" or the "bad" chance it was luck. And again you can micro or do this or that to alter the chance percentages, but not remove them completely.


Its very interesting for me to come back to this thread to see so many argue my same point as me on how luck is a very small factor in sc2.

From your perspective it might seem like a "blind" 6 pool, but its not random what build your opponent chooses its a planned strategy in a strategy game. As a comparison lets take basketball, I can dribble right or I can dribble left, if the opponent catches me I lose but if they go the wrong way I win is it luck? The strategy game starts before the match, by your defition me going CC first and losing would be bad luck, I would call that a bad strategy. If starcraft 2 was really filled with random luck factors then pro players wouldn't win consistently against lesser players. There is tons and tons of statistic that proves starcraft 2 is not luck based, if it was the pro scene and tournament results would be totally different, no player would be consistent.

Your arguements about birds and IRL are blatant strawman arguements, no one here is saying that getting shit on by a bird is not bad luck. Are you fighting the bird in a one on one game about not getting shit on where you are strategically trying to outmaneouver eachother because if the answer is yes then you are in the wrong forum about the wrong game.

Some people view everything that goes bad for them as bad luck, you got a disadvantage because of build orders, bad luck. You got flanked right when moving out with your army, bad luck, you were out of position when the drop came in bad luck, the enemy finished his upgrades before you bad luck. None of it is bad luck, he made better decisions than you, its just that you find that out now.

Consider Taeja by what magic did he consistently magically make exactly the right moves to win without scouting? He is famous for his magical game sense that made him seem invincible, he read the flow of the game and the mind of his opponents like no other player has ever done and if you want to tell me that he just happend to be lucky 50 times in a row. Lets just agree to disagree


I never said SC2 was completely luck based though, I agree it isn't. I don't agree it's not a big factor though, specially in ladder games.

As you say skill has a big influence. Most influence even, but that doesn't mean the better player wins all the time. Even though I was focusing on ladder, you can see it in pro games too. Maru is way better than Armani, right? Yet he has dropped games to him.

Maru is way better than any player he will face on ladder that's not a pro right? And yet he doesn't have 100% Winrate on ladder either.


Well almost all pro-team/pro in any sport no matter how dominant have lost to an underdog, does that mean all traditional sports are luck based by a big factor? Losing to lesser players/teams happens all over the world all the time in literally every single sport, if you claim to be objective then you would need to agree that all sports are luck based.

Like many others have written managing risk is a skill, and that is true for all sports. Is this pass in soccer too risky for the possible outcome or is it worth it? All games have some kind of innate risk taking that is part of the game, that doesn't mean you can blame luck when you lose. Well if that guy didn't intercept my pass we would have won, this game is all luck


EDIT
I will add that these theoretical ladder games in a vacuum doesn't exist. When you choose your build you can factor in what league you are in, what the meta is and so on. If you choose to do a proxy void ray all in two weeks after uThermal posted a popular guide on how to counter that cheese when you lose you cant really blame your bad luck. If I go greedy CC first build and die to early aggression I can't blame bad luck. Just like in pro play there is always factor to consider when choosing your build, in some leagues its literally 60% cheeses on ladder, if you go greedy and lose its on you.

The question I want to ask you is what is your goal with your ladder play? If its winning every single game/reducing risk/crushing cheese then there are builds for you to choose that lets you be safe but you will be behind against economic openers. If your goal to is to climb the ladder and win 50+% of your games then choosing a bit risker openings knowing you might lose to cheese is an option. An option you choose willingly risking losses to some strategies, that is not your bad luck, you are risking loss against cheese to get ahead against players that are safe. When you get the short end of the stick you blame luck and yet when you win partly due to a build order advantage you call it skill?

Also it is easy to fall for the trap of seeing the result of games being luck, looking at Maru vs Armani on aligulac for example. There is 17% chance for Armani to win against Maru, maybe you think "wow if Armani wins he got lucky" but thats not how chance works, it only shows the likelihood for that to happen not indicating that its luck. Maru isn't equally skilled all the time, he might sleep bad, be emotionally vulnerable, just have a bad day and face Armani when he is on his game and at that point Armani winning can mean he is better than Maru that day. Pro gamers aren't robots, they aren't the same equally skilled players all the time, form varies a lot, that is not luck that is just life.

Uh, yeah, the level you play differs in the luck factor?

Let's take the football. If I kick the ball I know where I want it to go but not every time it goes there. IF a pro kicks the ball, it goes there more often. With my poorer kicking technique I give more chaos into the game thus enforcing more luck - e.g. scoring from an impossible angle because my cross went into the goal.

The better you are the less luck can be included in your game. Have you like ever seen low level football vs a pro match?

When I want to score from a half I have to hope for a lucky kick, when a pro player wants to score from a half they will hit the goal. Because they know what they're doing while I'm just bad and as such rely on luck.

The only difference is that I accept my fate and when I try to score from an impossible position or in an impossible way at least I aknowledge I try to get a lucky score. While in SC2 everybody is a pro and everybody does their 2-1-1. 3 minutes later. With zerg units.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-12 17:00:28
October 12 2021 16:57 GMT
#45
On October 12 2021 22:04 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2021 18:56 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 12 2021 08:03 WombaT wrote:
On October 12 2021 07:31 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 12 2021 05:22 [Phantom] wrote:
Honestly the takeway for me is there a lot of people here that believe that any person with hard work can be a famous billionare and if you aren't you haven't worked hard enough.

Because if they truly believe luck only influences 0-10 percent of such a complex game like starcraft, SPECIFICALLY in a Best of 1 scenario, agaisn't a random player on a random race on a random map on random external conditions, then they must apply that logic to the rest of their lifes, right?

Again, if you go outside and a bird shits on you, that's not luck according to them because you made the decition to go walk outside, you should get gud instead.

I think most people here think lucks means litterally RNG like the above person said, and that there must be defined chances (10% critical hit chance, 5%-20% critical hit damage, 3% chance of parrying etc), and while that is indeed luck, that's not at all the complete definition or spectrum. Like the poster above said what if it's a four player map and a build order win? There no explanation other than luck. And that doesn't mean your destiny is out of your control, or that you didn't make a concious decision to expand early and the enemy to rush, that did happen, but it doesn't mean luck was not involved, specially since you have no way of knowing what the enemy is doing. You tok a risk, and they did too, which has a certain ammount of chance of succeding and you could say that wether or not you got the "good chance" or the "bad" chance it was luck. And again you can micro or do this or that to alter the chance percentages, but not remove them completely.


Its very interesting for me to come back to this thread to see so many argue my same point as me on how luck is a very small factor in sc2.

From your perspective it might seem like a "blind" 6 pool, but its not random what build your opponent chooses its a planned strategy in a strategy game. As a comparison lets take basketball, I can dribble right or I can dribble left, if the opponent catches me I lose but if they go the wrong way I win is it luck? The strategy game starts before the match, by your defition me going CC first and losing would be bad luck, I would call that a bad strategy. If starcraft 2 was really filled with random luck factors then pro players wouldn't win consistently against lesser players. There is tons and tons of statistic that proves starcraft 2 is not luck based, if it was the pro scene and tournament results would be totally different, no player would be consistent.

Your arguements about birds and IRL are blatant strawman arguements, no one here is saying that getting shit on by a bird is not bad luck. Are you fighting the bird in a one on one game about not getting shit on where you are strategically trying to outmaneouver eachother because if the answer is yes then you are in the wrong forum about the wrong game.

Some people view everything that goes bad for them as bad luck, you got a disadvantage because of build orders, bad luck. You got flanked right when moving out with your army, bad luck, you were out of position when the drop came in bad luck, the enemy finished his upgrades before you bad luck. None of it is bad luck, he made better decisions than you, its just that you find that out now.

Consider Taeja by what magic did he consistently magically make exactly the right moves to win without scouting? He is famous for his magical game sense that made him seem invincible, he read the flow of the game and the mind of his opponents like no other player has ever done and if you want to tell me that he just happend to be lucky 50 times in a row. Lets just agree to disagree

We’re literally talking ladder, not the innate game sense of a player of the calibre of Taeja, who IMO is in the top 5 of best players to touch the game, but in most other people’s estimation at least 15-20

Like cool your ‘better decision’ is to blind cheese on a 2 player map where you know where I spawn, and if my scouting misses it you win.

Cool, let’s not pretend there aren’t players who just coinflip every single game on ladder, especially when spawning locations are already known.

Like it’s ridiculous every other response is some ‘git gud’ variant, but hey let’s not question the chops of people who just blind cheese every single game.

Taeja is playing the same game we are, sc2 played by Taeja and sc2 played us doesn't have different luck factors. Thats like saying soccer in low level has tons of luck while soccer in high level has no luck. If one person is a god proves its not luck, it is skill. If it looks like luck but some people win consistently that is a very big hint that it isn't luck, they just see something you don't which is a skill.

It all depends how you define skill, is all aspects of starcraft 2 is equal in value than yes cheeser that wins are more skilled then you. But if you value macro/micro more than strategic decisions obviously you are probably more skilled in those avenues of the game.

In most sports there are risky plays, that will backfire hugely if the bet doesn't pay off. Does that mean all traditional sports are luck based? Because there are different ways/strategies to play games, some play like robots systematically and intellectually sound while others play wild and risky. No matter what the outcome blaming luck in any sport says more about your outlook than anything else.


On October 12 2021 13:38 [Phantom] wrote:
On October 12 2021 07:31 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 12 2021 05:22 [Phantom] wrote:
Honestly the takeway for me is there a lot of people here that believe that any person with hard work can be a famous billionare and if you aren't you haven't worked hard enough.

Because if they truly believe luck only influences 0-10 percent of such a complex game like starcraft, SPECIFICALLY in a Best of 1 scenario, agaisn't a random player on a random race on a random map on random external conditions, then they must apply that logic to the rest of their lifes, right?

Again, if you go outside and a bird shits on you, that's not luck according to them because you made the decition to go walk outside, you should get gud instead.

I think most people here think lucks means litterally RNG like the above person said, and that there must be defined chances (10% critical hit chance, 5%-20% critical hit damage, 3% chance of parrying etc), and while that is indeed luck, that's not at all the complete definition or spectrum. Like the poster above said what if it's a four player map and a build order win? There no explanation other than luck. And that doesn't mean your destiny is out of your control, or that you didn't make a concious decision to expand early and the enemy to rush, that did happen, but it doesn't mean luck was not involved, specially since you have no way of knowing what the enemy is doing. You tok a risk, and they did too, which has a certain ammount of chance of succeding and you could say that wether or not you got the "good chance" or the "bad" chance it was luck. And again you can micro or do this or that to alter the chance percentages, but not remove them completely.


Its very interesting for me to come back to this thread to see so many argue my same point as me on how luck is a very small factor in sc2.

From your perspective it might seem like a "blind" 6 pool, but its not random what build your opponent chooses its a planned strategy in a strategy game. As a comparison lets take basketball, I can dribble right or I can dribble left, if the opponent catches me I lose but if they go the wrong way I win is it luck? The strategy game starts before the match, by your defition me going CC first and losing would be bad luck, I would call that a bad strategy. If starcraft 2 was really filled with random luck factors then pro players wouldn't win consistently against lesser players. There is tons and tons of statistic that proves starcraft 2 is not luck based, if it was the pro scene and tournament results would be totally different, no player would be consistent.

Your arguements about birds and IRL are blatant strawman arguements, no one here is saying that getting shit on by a bird is not bad luck. Are you fighting the bird in a one on one game about not getting shit on where you are strategically trying to outmaneouver eachother because if the answer is yes then you are in the wrong forum about the wrong game.

Some people view everything that goes bad for them as bad luck, you got a disadvantage because of build orders, bad luck. You got flanked right when moving out with your army, bad luck, you were out of position when the drop came in bad luck, the enemy finished his upgrades before you bad luck. None of it is bad luck, he made better decisions than you, its just that you find that out now.

Consider Taeja by what magic did he consistently magically make exactly the right moves to win without scouting? He is famous for his magical game sense that made him seem invincible, he read the flow of the game and the mind of his opponents like no other player has ever done and if you want to tell me that he just happend to be lucky 50 times in a row. Lets just agree to disagree


I never said SC2 was completely luck based though, I agree it isn't. I don't agree it's not a big factor though, specially in ladder games.

As you say skill has a big influence. Most influence even, but that doesn't mean the better player wins all the time. Even though I was focusing on ladder, you can see it in pro games too. Maru is way better than Armani, right? Yet he has dropped games to him.

Maru is way better than any player he will face on ladder that's not a pro right? And yet he doesn't have 100% Winrate on ladder either.


Well almost all pro-team/pro in any sport no matter how dominant have lost to an underdog, does that mean all traditional sports are luck based by a big factor? Losing to lesser players/teams happens all over the world all the time in literally every single sport, if you claim to be objective then you would need to agree that all sports are luck based.

Like many others have written managing risk is a skill, and that is true for all sports. Is this pass in soccer too risky for the possible outcome or is it worth it? All games have some kind of innate risk taking that is part of the game, that doesn't mean you can blame luck when you lose. Well if that guy didn't intercept my pass we would have won, this game is all luck


EDIT
I will add that these theoretical ladder games in a vacuum doesn't exist. When you choose your build you can factor in what league you are in, what the meta is and so on. If you choose to do a proxy void ray all in two weeks after uThermal posted a popular guide on how to counter that cheese when you lose you cant really blame your bad luck. If I go greedy CC first build and die to early aggression I can't blame bad luck. Just like in pro play there is always factor to consider when choosing your build, in some leagues its literally 60% cheeses on ladder, if you go greedy and lose its on you.

The question I want to ask you is what is your goal with your ladder play? If its winning every single game/reducing risk/crushing cheese then there are builds for you to choose that lets you be safe but you will be behind against economic openers. If your goal to is to climb the ladder and win 50+% of your games then choosing a bit risker openings knowing you might lose to cheese is an option. An option you choose willingly risking losses to some strategies, that is not your bad luck, you are risking loss against cheese to get ahead against players that are safe. When you get the short end of the stick you blame luck and yet when you win partly due to a build order advantage you call it skill?

Also it is easy to fall for the trap of seeing the result of games being luck, looking at Maru vs Armani on aligulac for example. There is 17% chance for Armani to win against Maru, maybe you think "wow if Armani wins he got lucky" but thats not how chance works, it only shows the likelihood for that to happen not indicating that its luck. Maru isn't equally skilled all the time, he might sleep bad, be emotionally vulnerable, just have a bad day and face Armani when he is on his game and at that point Armani winning can mean he is better than Maru that day. Pro gamers aren't robots, they aren't the same equally skilled players all the time, form varies a lot, that is not luck that is just life.

Uh, yeah, the level you play differs in the luck factor?

Let's take the football. If I kick the ball I know where I want it to go but not every time it goes there. IF a pro kicks the ball, it goes there more often. With my poorer kicking technique I give more chaos into the game thus enforcing more luck - e.g. scoring from an impossible angle because my cross went into the goal.

The better you are the less luck can be included in your game. Have you like ever seen low level football vs a pro match?

When I want to score from a half I have to hope for a lucky kick, when a pro player wants to score from a half they will hit the goal. Because they know what they're doing while I'm just bad and as such rely on luck.

The only difference is that I accept my fate and when I try to score from an impossible position or in an impossible way at least I aknowledge I try to get a lucky score. While in SC2 everybody is a pro and everybody does their 2-1-1. 3 minutes later. With zerg units.

Wow we have a different outlook on life.

There is always a chance you make a bad kick or a good kick no matter your skill level and they are good or bad because of your skill not because of luck. Obviously higher skilled players will make less bad shots. From your perspective everything in your life must be luck, the better you are at driving a car the less risk you get unlucky and crash into someone else. I mean its not like that is your fault or anything, totally just bad luck. Same with doing something well, practising a song on the guitar for weeks and when you finally make it you can exclude "shit I cant believe I actually did it thats so lucky!"...

I can see that some people view life like that, everything that has a variance of happening is luck but its very different from how I look at life

To be clear your example of kicking a ball has 0 luck variety in my opinion, it depends on how you kick it. Not on an outside factor like luck, if you kick it good or bad is 100% up to you, your control, your skill and so on. Thats why someone can get good at sports, because its not luck
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
October 16 2021 00:53 GMT
#46
You don't see the impact of luck when kicking a football or getting in a car accident? The mud on the boots affecting balance and weights, the imperfections of the football, as well as diffeernt wieghts of mud and grass, the different traction on the grass surface, because the field is a lviing lawn, the heartbeat of the player and the general bodily rhythm the wind and the differences in air in any given day that cannot be detected? Those are all factors that can affect a course of a ball kick that is not determined by skill. o luck it is not.

As for driving a car, surely you can't seriously beleive there isn't a large luck variance into getting into a car accident? Sure, if you are a better driver, you will be less likely to get into an accident, but many car accidents cannot be forseen and are purely luck based. People who beleive that they are great at driving cars and getting into an accidents are skill based therefore they are less likely to be in an accident are more likely to get into accidents afterall.
washikie
Profile Joined February 2011
United States752 Posts
October 16 2021 04:26 GMT
#47
Luck definitely plays a part ingames especially bo1 like ladder. You can be very consistent on the adder this is shown from the very high winrates of the best players. But certain builds on certain matchups are straight up gambles that mainly rely on your opponent being unable to get a good read on what you are doing. Starcraft is a game of limited information it has some similarities with poker. If players play enough games the better one will usually come out on top but sometimes you do just get felt a bad hand, your build gets blind countered, your opponent his something and even though you scouted you were unlucky and did not see it. You had a bad read on what your opponent was doing because what you did get to scout was ambiguous. Luck does play a part in sc2. Builds like dt rushes are highly reliant on luck.

You could argue that a perfect player would scout perfectly to prevent luck from affecting thier games, but sc2 early game is designed in such a way that you can still miss key information even if you play as optimal as possible to find it.
"when life gives Hero lemons he makes carriers" -Artosis
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25046 Posts
October 16 2021 09:17 GMT
#48
On October 16 2021 13:26 washikie wrote:
Luck definitely plays a part ingames especially bo1 like ladder. You can be very consistent on the adder this is shown from the very high winrates of the best players. But certain builds on certain matchups are straight up gambles that mainly rely on your opponent being unable to get a good read on what you are doing. Starcraft is a game of limited information it has some similarities with poker. If players play enough games the better one will usually come out on top but sometimes you do just get felt a bad hand, your build gets blind countered, your opponent his something and even though you scouted you were unlucky and did not see it. You had a bad read on what your opponent was doing because what you did get to scout was ambiguous. Luck does play a part in sc2. Builds like dt rushes are highly reliant on luck.

You could argue that a perfect player would scout perfectly to prevent luck from affecting thier games, but sc2 early game is designed in such a way that you can still miss key information even if you play as optimal as possible to find it.

How crucial early blind decisions are and how long the information gathering period is and what information you can get and how you use it, as well as how effective middle of the road safe openers are all come into play. As well as how other skillsets come into play.

SC2, especially with Legacy’s eco ramp-up and maps almost exclusively being 2 player now you get a whole swathe of fiendish builds hitting pretty early, your initial worker scout may be too early to pick a build, and your initial unit poke with adept/reaper or early lings may be either too late or not be able to get in.

Without perfect info or a definitive scout it’s hard to make educated guesses because of the eco by elimination. In HoTS if you could say, sniff out Robo tech early you could rule out certain other techs, or if they had multiple trees they would have almost no units at that stage of the game and you could just kill them.

In Legacy if you see a Robo early doors they could still have a twilight and a shrine, or be rushing Templars

It’s still a great game but there is quite a lot of volatility, which I think was exacerbated in speeding up the eco, it’s harder to either directly scout (at certain impactful times) or rule out possibilities by a process of elimination.

BW has a slower build, cheese is of course a thing but the scouting phases can last quite some time. Plus it’s a really hard game execution wise. WC3 has actual genuine RNG in it but really elongated battles where better micro has more chance to shine.

Of the 3, the chance of an average mid GM equivalent beating a top pro player I’d wager is much higher in SC2 than the other two, for a variety of reasons.

Call it luck or volatility or whatever. I think one can both acknowledge it while also striving to improve their own skills and not using it as a crutch for losses.

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
AssyrianKing
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia2111 Posts
October 16 2021 12:29 GMT
#49
Well what's happened to me is, sometimes I'm scouting thoroughly and I manage to miss one corner where there is a proxy building so yes I would say there is some semblance of luck.
John 15:13
Prev 1 2 3 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RotterdaM Event
16:00
Rotti Stream Rumble 4k Edition
RotterdaM323
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 785
RotterdaM 323
MaxPax 314
Hui .271
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 3235
Jaedong 2286
Flash 2097
EffOrt 961
Hyuk 731
Soulkey 415
Stork 375
ZerO 360
actioN 339
Snow 328
[ Show more ]
Soma 243
firebathero 190
GuemChi 183
Mind 128
TY 60
sSak 58
Barracks 53
JulyZerg 50
Sharp 49
PianO 42
Terrorterran 41
JYJ39
Yoon 27
Rock 26
sorry 22
Aegong 21
HiyA 20
soO 20
yabsab 15
IntoTheRainbow 8
GoRush 8
Shine 7
Dota 2
Gorgc6001
qojqva3312
League of Legends
singsing2503
Dendi1297
Counter-Strike
fl0m909
markeloff165
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King257
Other Games
hiko1464
Beastyqt833
Lowko309
ceh9254
crisheroes245
ArmadaUGS174
Liquid`VortiX137
KnowMe100
Trikslyr45
ZerO(Twitch)15
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick46182
StarCraft 2
angryscii 6
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Reevou 5
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis7291
• TFBlade748
Other Games
• Shiphtur176
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
7h 57m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
17h 57m
WardiTV European League
23h 57m
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
1d 7h
The PondCast
1d 17h
WardiTV European League
1d 19h
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 23h
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 20
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.