On September 23 2021 16:08 RKC wrote: Random thought. Which Zergbros would win: EU (Serral + Reynor) vs KR (Rogue + Dark)?
Proleague format: two 1v1 (blind pick), two 2v2, final ace match 1v1 (alternating between 1v1 and 2v2 until ace, each player has to play one 1v1, ace is for anyone)
P.S. What would a TvT version be? Maru + Cure (too bad TY is gone) v Clem + Heromarine? Unfortunately, PvP would probably be a sweep for KR...
TvT would also be a sweep for KR, maybe even harder sweep that PvP. The ZvZ can go either way. Dark and Rogue are the better players but Serral and Reynor are very good as well and with the 2v2 included it can go either way.
On September 23 2021 16:08 RKC wrote: Random thought. Which Zergbros would win: EU (Serral + Reynor) vs KR (Rogue + Dark)?
Proleague format: two 1v1 (blind pick), two 2v2, final ace match 1v1 (alternating between 1v1 and 2v2 until ace, each player has to play one 1v1, ace is for anyone)
P.S. What would a TvT version be? Maru + Cure (too bad TY is gone) v Clem + Heromarine? Unfortunately, PvP would probably be a sweep for KR...
Wardi make it happen! Also include Archon matches :D
Zerg tournament: I'd say Serral + Reynor slightly favored though can go either way Terran tournament: Maru + Cure too good. 5:0 or 4:1 Protoss tournament: Idk whats with Showtime these days. Maybe Astrea + Neeb vs Trap + Parting. Since it's PvP it can go either way but Koreans definitely favored
On September 23 2021 16:08 RKC wrote: Random thought. Which Zergbros would win: EU (Serral + Reynor) vs KR (Rogue + Dark)?
Proleague format: two 1v1 (blind pick), two 2v2, final ace match 1v1 (alternating between 1v1 and 2v2 until ace, each player has to play one 1v1, ace is for anyone)
P.S. What would a TvT version be? Maru + Cure (too bad TY is gone) v Clem + Heromarine? Unfortunately, PvP would probably be a sweep for KR...
Wardi make it happen! Also include Archon matches :D
Zerg tournament: I'd say Serral + Reynor slightly favored though can go either way Terran tournament: Maru + Cure too good. 5:0 or 4:1 Protoss tournament: Idk whats with Showtime these days. Maybe Astrea + Neeb vs Trap + Parting. Since it's PvP it can go either way but Koreans definitely favored
Yes, I really think a show match would be a cool idea
Probably PvP would be more balanced due to randomness and cheese. Maybe Special can be a better combo with Clem? TvT still looks like a sweep... I can imagine Maru pulling off a comeback win even after Cure being killed in an early game rush...
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Actually thats exactly what aligulac is. Its just a bunch of subjective personal ratings from the developers, they don't use any proper elo algorithms. They also manually enter all the tournament scores and omit the ones they don't like.
Personally I hate people who disrespect the amount of effort that goes behind a site like Aligulac-the original story is something special. People like Kashim pour in countless hours of work and they usually put in everything that's on liquipedia and more
They also outline exactly how they calculate ratings...
On September 23 2021 19:32 Argonauta wrote: After seeing that with only 4 hours of difference there is a massive disparity between kr players and foreigners in the playoffs I am sure next ESL regional finals will start now at 6 pm EU.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Actually thats exactly what aligulac is. Its just a bunch of subjective personal ratings from the developers, they don't use any proper elo algorithms. They also manually enter all the tournament scores and omit the ones they don't like.
Personally I hate people who disrespect the amount of effort that goes behind a site like Aligulac-the original story is something special. People like Kashim pour in countless hours of work and they usually put in everything that's on liquipedia and more
They also outline exactly how they calculate ratings...
A bunch of effort having gone into it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean it's accurate though. I mean, right now it ranks Clem ahead of Maru and Solar ahead of Rogue (and both those Zergs are behind HeroMarine). And honestly there are a lot more questions I could raise just about the top ten.
I don't think that it's off because the people behind it are somehow biased, I think it's just really hard to come up with something like Aligulac that's consistently accurate. Given the difficulty of ranking like this, is argue they're probably doing about as well as is possible. But if you "hate people" who date disrespect it, if have to say I more hate those who treat it as the word of god.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Actually thats exactly what aligulac is. Its just a bunch of subjective personal ratings from the developers, they don't use any proper elo algorithms. They also manually enter all the tournament scores and omit the ones they don't like.
Personally I hate people who disrespect the amount of effort that goes behind a site like Aligulac-the original story is something special. People like Kashim pour in countless hours of work and they usually put in everything that's on liquipedia and more
They also outline exactly how they calculate ratings...
A bunch of effort having gone into it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean it's accurate though. I mean, right now it ranks Clem ahead of Maru and Solar ahead of Rogue (and both those Zergs are behind HeroMarine). And honestly there are a lot more questions I could raise just about the top ten.
I don't think that it's off because the people behind it are somehow biased, I think it's just really hard to come up with something like Aligulac that's consistently accurate. Given the difficulty of ranking like this, is argue they're probably doing about as well as is possible. But if you "hate people" who date disrespect it, if have to say I more hate those who treat it as the word of god.
2 things I have issues with Aligulac rating in general, there is no weighted scale for larger tournament match. Somehow a friendly Bo3 /Bo 5 tournament have the same impact with DH Global Tournament match is just insane. And next thing is, somehow, the win/loss of a certain matchup also affect the rating of the other 2 matchups. How can a win in TvP increase the TvZ rating is beyond me.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Actually thats exactly what aligulac is. Its just a bunch of subjective personal ratings from the developers, they don't use any proper elo algorithms. They also manually enter all the tournament scores and omit the ones they don't like.
Personally I hate people who disrespect the amount of effort that goes behind a site like Aligulac-the original story is something special. People like Kashim pour in countless hours of work and they usually put in everything that's on liquipedia and more
They also outline exactly how they calculate ratings...
A bunch of effort having gone into it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean it's accurate though. I mean, right now it ranks Clem ahead of Maru and Solar ahead of Rogue (and both those Zergs are behind HeroMarine). And honestly there are a lot more questions I could raise just about the top ten.
I don't think that it's off because the people behind it are somehow biased, I think it's just really hard to come up with something like Aligulac that's consistently accurate. Given the difficulty of ranking like this, is argue they're probably doing about as well as is possible. But if you "hate people" who date disrespect it, if have to say I more hate those who treat it as the word of god.
The ranking is perfectly fine imo, if you can use your own knowledge of who does a lot of online / smaller tournaments and have their ratings inflated (typically with EPT Cup), who barely play online (sOs, therefore his ratings aren’t accurate because he did not « peak » to his true rating). Rogue is usually performing kinda badly in some events and then winning dominating the opposition, without doing that much online tournaments, so he still has a rating closer to his real one compared to sOs, but if you know he can beat anyone you won’t be surprised. In average though, he will perform relatively to his rating.
There is also the known fact that you can’t compare players across regions, so don’t compare foreigners with Koreans directly. For example, HeroMarine will inflate his rating by dominating the cups without Serral / Reynor, and these two will usually farm him and others so they will have great rating without playing that many games, benefitting from the inflated ratings of the foreigners playing in the cup.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Actually thats exactly what aligulac is. Its just a bunch of subjective personal ratings from the developers, they don't use any proper elo algorithms. They also manually enter all the tournament scores and omit the ones they don't like.
Personally I hate people who disrespect the amount of effort that goes behind a site like Aligulac-the original story is something special. People like Kashim pour in countless hours of work and they usually put in everything that's on liquipedia and more
They also outline exactly how they calculate ratings...
A bunch of effort having gone into it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean it's accurate though. I mean, right now it ranks Clem ahead of Maru and Solar ahead of Rogue (and both those Zergs are behind HeroMarine). And honestly there are a lot more questions I could raise just about the top ten.
I don't think that it's off because the people behind it are somehow biased, I think it's just really hard to come up with something like Aligulac that's consistently accurate. Given the difficulty of ranking like this, is argue they're probably doing about as well as is possible. But if you "hate people" who date disrespect it, if have to say I more hate those who treat it as the word of god.
The ranking is perfectly fine imo, if you can use your own knowledge of who does a lot of online / smaller tournaments and have their ratings inflated (typically with EPT Cup), who barely play online (sOs, therefore his ratings aren’t accurate because he did not « peak » to his true rating). Rogue is usually performing kinda badly in some events and then winning dominating the opposition, without doing that much online tournaments, so he still has a rating closer to his real one compared to sOs, but if you know he can beat anyone you won’t be surprised. In average though, he will perform relatively to his rating.
There is also the known fact that you can’t compare players across regions, so don’t compare foreigners with Koreans directly. For example, HeroMarine will inflate his rating by dominating the cups without Serral / Reynor, and these two will usually farm him and others so they will have great rating without playing that many games, benefitting from the inflated ratings of the foreigners playing in the cup.
So, the ranking is "perfectly fine" as long as you manually:
1. Separate the players out by region 2. Up the rating for players who don't play much online 3. Lower the ratings for players who are very active online 4. Account for highly inconsistent levels of play from some players
After doing all this... what's the point? That's almost the same level of evaluation you'd have to do to rank players from scratch. I know you meant this as a defense, but it reads as a harsher criticism of Aligulac than I was actually making.
Well there is no perfect rating system? And it works perfectly fine for most purposes? Like, if you were to liquibet according to aligulac, I am pretty sure you would be in the top 100, maybe even top 50.
On September 23 2021 19:32 Argonauta wrote: After seeing that with only 4 hours of difference there is a massive disparity between kr players and foreigners in the playoffs I am sure next ESL regional finals will start now at 6 pm EU.
Yea they love to make Koreans stay up all night. Magic too.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Actually thats exactly what aligulac is. Its just a bunch of subjective personal ratings from the developers, they don't use any proper elo algorithms. They also manually enter all the tournament scores and omit the ones they don't like.
Personally I hate people who disrespect the amount of effort that goes behind a site like Aligulac-the original story is something special. People like Kashim pour in countless hours of work and they usually put in everything that's on liquipedia and more
They also outline exactly how they calculate ratings...
A bunch of effort having gone into it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean it's accurate though. I mean, right now it ranks Clem ahead of Maru and Solar ahead of Rogue (and both those Zergs are behind HeroMarine). And honestly there are a lot more questions I could raise just about the top ten.
I don't think that it's off because the people behind it are somehow biased, I think it's just really hard to come up with something like Aligulac that's consistently accurate. Given the difficulty of ranking like this, is argue they're probably doing about as well as is possible. But if you "hate people" who date disrespect it, if have to say I more hate those who treat it as the word of god.
Meant to bash OP because they seem to have a weird hate boner for Aligulac-not saying anything about it being god; I pointed out where they were wrong and the work they were diminishing.
Aligulac addresses all of those issues here http://aligulac.com/about/faq/ but I think they understate how much of a problem offline vs online is-Rogue lost a bo5 against Bunny in a WardiTV tournament but I don't ever see that happening in a GSL match.
On September 23 2021 12:40 FuRong wrote: It was a great event, but it's a pity that it's only listed as Major rather than Premier on Liquipedia because of the prize pool. It's the same for the upcoming KoB.
If only they could find one more sponsor to bump up the prize pool a little bit!
I want to say something I feel very strongly about.
There are way too many premier tournaments that don't deserve to be premier.
It fiminishes the importance of actual tournaments, makes a joke out of competition and inflates a lot of players that shouldn't be anywhere near considered as greats.
That being said, separating a premier tournament due to prize pool is maybe not the best metric either (I know there are other factors).
On September 23 2021 12:40 FuRong wrote: It was a great event, but it's a pity that it's only listed as Major rather than Premier on Liquipedia because of the prize pool. It's the same for the upcoming KoB.
If only they could find one more sponsor to bump up the prize pool a little bit!
I want to say something I feel very strongly about.
There are way too many premier tournaments that don't deserve to be premier.
It fiminishes the importance of actual tournaments, makes a joke out of competition and inflates a lot of players that shouldn't be anywhere near considered as greats.
That being said, separating a premier tournament due to prize pool is maybe not the best metric either (I know there are other factors).
I mean, the legacy of the players' is determined by how the community remembers them. As long as most of us are aware of context behind the tournaments, the "major" and 'premier" names won't affect how we view certain tournaments or players.
On September 23 2021 12:40 FuRong wrote: It was a great event, but it's a pity that it's only listed as Major rather than Premier on Liquipedia because of the prize pool. It's the same for the upcoming KoB.
If only they could find one more sponsor to bump up the prize pool a little bit!
I want to say something I feel very strongly about.
There are way too many premier tournaments that don't deserve to be premier.
It fiminishes the importance of actual tournaments, makes a joke out of competition and inflates a lot of players that shouldn't be anywhere near considered as greats.
That being said, separating a premier tournament due to prize pool is maybe not the best metric either (I know there are other factors).
I mean, the legacy of the players' is determined by how the community remembers them. As long as most of us are aware of context behind the tournaments, the "major" and 'premier" names won't affect how we view certain tournaments or players.
yeah I think most people know that liquipedia's "premier" and major" definition is just a very arbitrary categorization and don't value it that much. Except the fans of a certain player I guess *cough*. But when TaeJa had the most liquipedia premier wins most people were aware of the context behind his tournament wins and didn't rank him above more accomplished players.
On September 23 2021 12:40 FuRong wrote: It was a great event, but it's a pity that it's only listed as Major rather than Premier on Liquipedia because of the prize pool. It's the same for the upcoming KoB.
If only they could find one more sponsor to bump up the prize pool a little bit!
I want to say something I feel very strongly about.
There are way too many premier tournaments that don't deserve to be premier.
It fiminishes the importance of actual tournaments, makes a joke out of competition and inflates a lot of players that shouldn't be anywhere near considered as greats.
That being said, separating a premier tournament due to prize pool is maybe not the best metric either (I know there are other factors).
I mean, the legacy of the players' is determined by how the community remembers them. As long as most of us are aware of context behind the tournaments, the "major" and 'premier" names won't affect how we view certain tournaments or players.
yeah I think most people know that liquipedia's "premier" and major" definition is just a very arbitrary categorization and don't value it that much. Except the fans of a certain player I guess *cough*. But when TaeJa had the most liquipedia premier wins most people were aware of the context behind his tournament wins and didn't rank him above more accomplished players.
weren't most of Taeja's premier wins outside of Korea and not having as many of the best players like this ASUS ROG?
On September 23 2021 12:40 FuRong wrote: It was a great event, but it's a pity that it's only listed as Major rather than Premier on Liquipedia because of the prize pool. It's the same for the upcoming KoB.
If only they could find one more sponsor to bump up the prize pool a little bit!
I want to say something I feel very strongly about.
There are way too many premier tournaments that don't deserve to be premier.
It fiminishes the importance of actual tournaments, makes a joke out of competition and inflates a lot of players that shouldn't be anywhere near considered as greats.
That being said, separating a premier tournament due to prize pool is maybe not the best metric either (I know there are other factors).
I mean, the legacy of the players' is determined by how the community remembers them. As long as most of us are aware of context behind the tournaments, the "major" and 'premier" names won't affect how we view certain tournaments or players.
You would think that but look at the past TL "best players of all time" and you'd see that a lot of people take into account the "premier" list on liquipedia like Gospel in an attempt to be impartial, and they weight a lot of your aments the same when they aren't.
EPT
