A week after Serral broke his ten-month title drought in the DreamHack Masters Fall Finals, a fellow StarCraft II legend broke a similar drought. Maru, who had not won a major trophy since King of Battles in October of 2020, triumphed over a fiercely competitive field of competitors to claim the championship at ASUS ROG Fall. Taking down Rogue 4-2 in the grand finals, Maru won his first major title of 2021 after two runner-up finishes (DHM Summer Finals & Code S Season 1), reaffirming his place as the top Terran player in the world in the process.
The tournament was almost a correction to prior DHM Fall Finals, where the absence of top players like Reynor, Rogue, and Maru had been conspicuous. While the Italian Zerg may have been a bit rusty after coming off of a break, the two former Jin Air teammates made it a point to show the StarCraft II world what they had missed. After going through Neeb and Clem in the group stages, Maru proceeded to take imperious 3-0 sweeps against DHM Fall champion Serral as well as HeroMarine before arriving in the finals. Rogue emerged from the opposite side of the bracket on the back of an equally impressive run, taking victories over Serral and Astrea in the group stage, followed by wins against Clem and Dark in the playoffs.
Alas, a duel between two Code S champions seemed to bring the 'GSL finals curse' with it, with most of the games unfolding as one-sided stomps in the favor of whoever gained an early advantage. However, the two finalists also delivered a fantastic game on Romanticide: a rip-roaring clash of Terran Infantry vs Muta-Ling-Bane that redeemed the entire series. Even the typically prescient commentator Lambo was vexed at times, unable to say who was ahead in an intensely violent and chaotic game. While Rogue ultimately triumphed in that memorable bout, his early game decision-making and defence were found rather lacking in the other games, leading to Maru taking a comfortable 4-2 victory in the end.
Amusingly enough, Maru's reaction after winning the finals was to continue to dwell upon his loss to Trap in the Code S quarterfinals—apparently four days wasn't long enough for his disappointment to subside. Still, even if the effusive praise from Twitch chat didn't console him, then perhaps the $6,000 first-place prize and 250 EPT global points will have cheered him up a tad.
Best tournament ever* (for Korean elitists): For the subset of fans who insist that Korea is the best (if not ONLY) region, ASUS ROG Fall was surely the most satisfying tournament in quite some time. The playoff bracket looked like something out of the pre-Serral days, with two of the most-hyped foreigners getting eliminated from the RO8 in brutal 0-3 sweeps, and with a Europe vs Europe match being the only thing preventing an all-Korean semifinals.
While it's a noticeable result that will have certain TL denizens taking victory laps for weeks, I don't really think there are any major takeaways going forward. After all, for almost a year now, we've seen the StarCraft II scene become an incredibly competitive place where all of the top players can seemingly beat each other on a given day. Think about this sequence of results: Two weeks ago, Trap outplayed Maru in the GSL quarterfinals. A few days later, Serral ran a buzzsaw through Trap in the DHM Finals. Then, a few more days after that, Maru stomped all over Serral in ASUS ROG. Were any of those results really surprising? I would say no. While there might be some differences in each player's race match-up abilities, on aggregate we remain in a place of incredible parity. Individual dominance might simplify storylines and make the scene easier to follow for some, but for hardcore fans, this is an exceptionally interesting time in StarCraft II.
Gabe comes up big: Anyway, it wasn't all bad for the European contingent at ASUS ROG Fall, as HeroMarine built on his solid DHM Fall run by earning an immense top four finish.
Big Gabe's #2 spot on the Aligulac.com TvP rankings still seemed suspect after DHM Fall, where he 'proved' his abilities by defeating a soon-to-be-retired sOs in consecutive series. However, Gabe backed his reputation up with a massive victory over Trap in the ASUS ROG group stage, defeating the PvT specialist and eliminating him from the tournament.
HeroMarine then went on to take a colossal dub against regional rival Reynor in the quarterfinals, eking out a dramatic reverse-sweep victory (perhaps the best overall series of the tournament). This wasn't quite as galactic an upset as the two players' contrasting resumes would make it seem—HeroMarine has a very respectable head-to-head record against Reynor over his career. However, it was arguably his most elephantine victory against Reynor in such a high-stakes match, and it's certainly one that we'll be keeping in mind during the upcoming DHM Europe regionals.
Will Maru ever lose TvT again?: With Clem showing further cracks in his TvZ, it's looking like Maru's TvT is the game's single most overwhelming match-up at the moment. Maru has a 16W–1L–2D record in 2021, with his only loss coming to the now-retired TY during the IEM Katowice group stages. Maru's ASUS ROG semifinal match against HeroMarine may have been #1 vs #4 in terms of Aligulac.com ratings, but the gap felt much wider than that in terms of both in-game play and the 3-0 result.
Inevitably, this run of dominance has to end—Maru is playing way above his 2020 level when he dropped series to basically all of the top Terrans (TY, Cure, INnoVation, Clem, etc.). Knowing that, however, makes you appreciate what he's doing in the present even more.
Mandatory Clem TvT/TvP commentary: While this is the most important dead horse in the SC2 scene, I'm a bit tired of beating it for now. Let us know your thoughts on Clem's TvT and TvP in the comments.
Dark and Rogue play the 'best' game of the tournament: Clashing in their third BO5 series of 2021, Dark and Rogue delivered a bizarre yet hilarious game worthy of two players who have spent far too much time thinking about how to beat one another.
Dark opened up with a 12-pool, offensive Spine Crawler all-in on 2000 Atmospheres, which Rogue responded to with an even more drastic measure of pulling all of his Drones for a counter-attack Dark's main. That move triggered a frenzied series of events that resulted in one Drone and one Zergling racing to kill an Extractor before an off-Creep Queen could arrive to save it. The Queen ultimately did get there in time (just barely), forcing a stalemate end to a short but exhilarating game.
A quirky detail about this game is that it was actually the second time this year that Dark and Rogue played to a draw result after a Spine Crawler all-in, repeating their equally unorthodox game from Code S. It doesn't seem like Dark has refined his offensive technique, or that Rogue has learned a hard counter on defense, so I look forward to seeing this outcome repeat itself many times in the future.
On September 23 2021 02:35 Zambrah wrote: Wow, I tuned out as soon as I heard Rogue was in a Bo7 situation, guess I opted out too early, this is the first time Rogue has lost a Bo7 right?
No, the record was (and still is) offline only. He's lost several online Bo7.
I didn’t watch all the games I am interested in yet, but this tournament is already glorious :D. Pretty impressed by HeroMarine, a bit disappointed by Serral and Clem. However, Maru’s TvT is clearly insane at the moment. In the past TY could beat him in preparation tournaments (or because Maru is not always super confident, especially against certain players) and other terrans sometimes as well, but he looked basically invincible this year. Even Clem getting into a good position on 2000 atmospheres was not quite enough to kill him, and if he does not die in spite of being behind, he just slowly claw his way back. This might have been TvT but this was one of my favorites games of this tournament.
On September 23 2021 02:35 Zambrah wrote: Wow, I tuned out as soon as I heard Rogue was in a Bo7 situation, guess I opted out too early, this is the first time Rogue has lost a Bo7 right?
No, the record was (and still is) offline only. He's lost several online Bo7.
Perhaps, this was the first time he lost final Bo7, right?
Maru and Rogue delivered the best of their performances, but not so in the tournaments like DH Masters.
I guess when both of them in very good shape and can practice each other without concern (not to worry about the upcoming GSL matches), none can beat them currently, except Reynor when he is in top form. Ultimately, they become giant killer in TvZ matchups, smashing all the self-proclaimed TvZ or ZvT specialists out there.
That's why I am against the idea of scheduling any premier tournament just mere a day before their GSL matches. We saw poor perfomances from Maru and Dark before as they had to focus on DH Masters tournament while came unprepared for the next GSL matches on tomorrow.
On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Aligulac is generally just not great at comparing players across regions, and rating an inconsistent but sometimes brilliant player like Rogue is an impossible task. I think Rogue gets hit with a lot of anti fans because of his incredibly abusive playstyle, though I personally find him fun to watch.
Also, I just want all Premier tournaments to have a Rogue/Dark series, those two always deliver hilarious games.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Actually thats exactly what aligulac is. Its just a bunch of subjective personal ratings from the developers, they don't use any proper elo algorithms. They also manually enter all the tournament scores and omit the ones they don't like.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Aligulac is generally just not great at comparing players across regions, and rating an inconsistent but sometimes brilliant player like Rogue is an impossible task. I think Rogue gets hit with a lot of anti fans because of his incredibly abusive playstyle, though I personally find him fun to watch.
Also, I just want all Premier tournaments to have a Rogue/Dark series, those two always deliver hilarious games.
it definitely predicts VERY well across the OVERALL sample of matches, but it would be interesting to see how it does in 'special' matches like GSL finals etc.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: That's why I am against the idea of scheduling any premier tournament just mere a day before their GSL matches. We saw poor perfomances from Maru and Dark before as they had to focus on DH Masters tournament while came unprepared for the next GSL matches on tomorrow.
ESL's scheduling has been horrible for the Koreans for the past year and a half. PartinG had to forfeit his play-in match against Maru for the Season Finals because it was "thanksgiving" in Korea. I mean, how hard is it to schedule two Bo5s that doesn't need broadcasting? Heck, they are playing-in for the Season Finals *before* the start of the next season for all the other regions. How on earth are the scheduling so out-of-sync with the Koreans?? This impacts map pools as well (If they ever update the map pools. There was one instance that for the Koreans, they have new maps in their new season when the rest of the world were on a previous one).
Asus ROG was better because it was scheduled during the 1-week break in GSL matches. This was reflected in the quality of the games, but it also reflected in the quality of the games for the foreigners, because they might be on a break after the Season Finals. The Season Finals, on the other hand, was right in the middle of Ro8s. I mean, the Season Finals was scheduled about 1 month after the finals of each region! The reason given was that it will give them time for logistics if ever they went offline etc, then how about the Koreans when they have to play GSL a day or two after the end of the competition? The scheduling honestly baffles me.
This event also proves that starting the event a few hours earlier to benefit Koreans also doesn't have a massive impact on viewers. Season finals starting 4 hours earlier like this did would lead to much better performances from KR players.
On September 23 2021 02:35 Zambrah wrote: Wow, I tuned out as soon as I heard Rogue was in a Bo7 situation, guess I opted out too early, this is the first time Rogue has lost a Bo7 right?
No, the record was (and still is) offline only. He's lost several online Bo7.
Perhaps, this was the first time he lost final Bo7, right?
It was a great event, but it's a pity that it's only listed as Major rather than Premier on Liquipedia because of the prize pool. It's the same for the upcoming KoB.
If only they could find one more sponsor to bump up the prize pool a little bit!
On September 23 2021 12:40 FuRong wrote: It was a great event, but it's a pity that it's only listed as Major rather than Premier on Liquipedia because of the prize pool. It's the same for the upcoming KoB.
If only they could find one more sponsor to bump up the prize pool a little bit!
Yeah, I truly dont mind if they can set up some matcherino or similar page so that fans can contribute as well if sponsorship working out. Rotti and Wardi manage to raise 2k in a night for the Open Cup-replacement tournament, so I think fan is more than willing to help with the tournament prize.
Random thought. Which Zergbros would win: EU (Serral + Reynor) vs KR (Rogue + Dark)?
Proleague format: two 1v1 (blind pick), two 2v2, final ace match 1v1 (alternating between 1v1 and 2v2 until ace, each player has to play one 1v1, ace is for anyone)
P.S. What would a TvT version be? Maru + Cure (too bad TY is gone) v Clem + Heromarine? Unfortunately, PvP would probably be a sweep for KR...
On September 23 2021 02:35 Zambrah wrote: Wow, I tuned out as soon as I heard Rogue was in a Bo7 situation, guess I opted out too early, this is the first time Rogue has lost a Bo7 right?
No, the record was (and still is) offline only. He's lost several online Bo7.
Perhaps, this was the first time he lost final Bo7, right?
After seeing that with only 4 hours of difference there is a massive disparity between kr players and foreigners in the playoffs I am sure next ESL regional finals will start now at 6 pm EU.
On September 23 2021 16:08 RKC wrote: Random thought. Which Zergbros would win: EU (Serral + Reynor) vs KR (Rogue + Dark)?
Proleague format: two 1v1 (blind pick), two 2v2, final ace match 1v1 (alternating between 1v1 and 2v2 until ace, each player has to play one 1v1, ace is for anyone)
P.S. What would a TvT version be? Maru + Cure (too bad TY is gone) v Clem + Heromarine? Unfortunately, PvP would probably be a sweep for KR...
TvT would also be a sweep for KR, maybe even harder sweep that PvP. The ZvZ can go either way. Dark and Rogue are the better players but Serral and Reynor are very good as well and with the 2v2 included it can go either way.
On September 23 2021 16:08 RKC wrote: Random thought. Which Zergbros would win: EU (Serral + Reynor) vs KR (Rogue + Dark)?
Proleague format: two 1v1 (blind pick), two 2v2, final ace match 1v1 (alternating between 1v1 and 2v2 until ace, each player has to play one 1v1, ace is for anyone)
P.S. What would a TvT version be? Maru + Cure (too bad TY is gone) v Clem + Heromarine? Unfortunately, PvP would probably be a sweep for KR...
Wardi make it happen! Also include Archon matches :D
Zerg tournament: I'd say Serral + Reynor slightly favored though can go either way Terran tournament: Maru + Cure too good. 5:0 or 4:1 Protoss tournament: Idk whats with Showtime these days. Maybe Astrea + Neeb vs Trap + Parting. Since it's PvP it can go either way but Koreans definitely favored
On September 23 2021 16:08 RKC wrote: Random thought. Which Zergbros would win: EU (Serral + Reynor) vs KR (Rogue + Dark)?
Proleague format: two 1v1 (blind pick), two 2v2, final ace match 1v1 (alternating between 1v1 and 2v2 until ace, each player has to play one 1v1, ace is for anyone)
P.S. What would a TvT version be? Maru + Cure (too bad TY is gone) v Clem + Heromarine? Unfortunately, PvP would probably be a sweep for KR...
Wardi make it happen! Also include Archon matches :D
Zerg tournament: I'd say Serral + Reynor slightly favored though can go either way Terran tournament: Maru + Cure too good. 5:0 or 4:1 Protoss tournament: Idk whats with Showtime these days. Maybe Astrea + Neeb vs Trap + Parting. Since it's PvP it can go either way but Koreans definitely favored
Yes, I really think a show match would be a cool idea
Probably PvP would be more balanced due to randomness and cheese. Maybe Special can be a better combo with Clem? TvT still looks like a sweep... I can imagine Maru pulling off a comeback win even after Cure being killed in an early game rush...
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Actually thats exactly what aligulac is. Its just a bunch of subjective personal ratings from the developers, they don't use any proper elo algorithms. They also manually enter all the tournament scores and omit the ones they don't like.
Personally I hate people who disrespect the amount of effort that goes behind a site like Aligulac-the original story is something special. People like Kashim pour in countless hours of work and they usually put in everything that's on liquipedia and more
They also outline exactly how they calculate ratings...
On September 23 2021 19:32 Argonauta wrote: After seeing that with only 4 hours of difference there is a massive disparity between kr players and foreigners in the playoffs I am sure next ESL regional finals will start now at 6 pm EU.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Actually thats exactly what aligulac is. Its just a bunch of subjective personal ratings from the developers, they don't use any proper elo algorithms. They also manually enter all the tournament scores and omit the ones they don't like.
Personally I hate people who disrespect the amount of effort that goes behind a site like Aligulac-the original story is something special. People like Kashim pour in countless hours of work and they usually put in everything that's on liquipedia and more
They also outline exactly how they calculate ratings...
A bunch of effort having gone into it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean it's accurate though. I mean, right now it ranks Clem ahead of Maru and Solar ahead of Rogue (and both those Zergs are behind HeroMarine). And honestly there are a lot more questions I could raise just about the top ten.
I don't think that it's off because the people behind it are somehow biased, I think it's just really hard to come up with something like Aligulac that's consistently accurate. Given the difficulty of ranking like this, is argue they're probably doing about as well as is possible. But if you "hate people" who date disrespect it, if have to say I more hate those who treat it as the word of god.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Actually thats exactly what aligulac is. Its just a bunch of subjective personal ratings from the developers, they don't use any proper elo algorithms. They also manually enter all the tournament scores and omit the ones they don't like.
Personally I hate people who disrespect the amount of effort that goes behind a site like Aligulac-the original story is something special. People like Kashim pour in countless hours of work and they usually put in everything that's on liquipedia and more
They also outline exactly how they calculate ratings...
A bunch of effort having gone into it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean it's accurate though. I mean, right now it ranks Clem ahead of Maru and Solar ahead of Rogue (and both those Zergs are behind HeroMarine). And honestly there are a lot more questions I could raise just about the top ten.
I don't think that it's off because the people behind it are somehow biased, I think it's just really hard to come up with something like Aligulac that's consistently accurate. Given the difficulty of ranking like this, is argue they're probably doing about as well as is possible. But if you "hate people" who date disrespect it, if have to say I more hate those who treat it as the word of god.
2 things I have issues with Aligulac rating in general, there is no weighted scale for larger tournament match. Somehow a friendly Bo3 /Bo 5 tournament have the same impact with DH Global Tournament match is just insane. And next thing is, somehow, the win/loss of a certain matchup also affect the rating of the other 2 matchups. How can a win in TvP increase the TvZ rating is beyond me.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Actually thats exactly what aligulac is. Its just a bunch of subjective personal ratings from the developers, they don't use any proper elo algorithms. They also manually enter all the tournament scores and omit the ones they don't like.
Personally I hate people who disrespect the amount of effort that goes behind a site like Aligulac-the original story is something special. People like Kashim pour in countless hours of work and they usually put in everything that's on liquipedia and more
They also outline exactly how they calculate ratings...
A bunch of effort having gone into it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean it's accurate though. I mean, right now it ranks Clem ahead of Maru and Solar ahead of Rogue (and both those Zergs are behind HeroMarine). And honestly there are a lot more questions I could raise just about the top ten.
I don't think that it's off because the people behind it are somehow biased, I think it's just really hard to come up with something like Aligulac that's consistently accurate. Given the difficulty of ranking like this, is argue they're probably doing about as well as is possible. But if you "hate people" who date disrespect it, if have to say I more hate those who treat it as the word of god.
The ranking is perfectly fine imo, if you can use your own knowledge of who does a lot of online / smaller tournaments and have their ratings inflated (typically with EPT Cup), who barely play online (sOs, therefore his ratings aren’t accurate because he did not « peak » to his true rating). Rogue is usually performing kinda badly in some events and then winning dominating the opposition, without doing that much online tournaments, so he still has a rating closer to his real one compared to sOs, but if you know he can beat anyone you won’t be surprised. In average though, he will perform relatively to his rating.
There is also the known fact that you can’t compare players across regions, so don’t compare foreigners with Koreans directly. For example, HeroMarine will inflate his rating by dominating the cups without Serral / Reynor, and these two will usually farm him and others so they will have great rating without playing that many games, benefitting from the inflated ratings of the foreigners playing in the cup.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Actually thats exactly what aligulac is. Its just a bunch of subjective personal ratings from the developers, they don't use any proper elo algorithms. They also manually enter all the tournament scores and omit the ones they don't like.
Personally I hate people who disrespect the amount of effort that goes behind a site like Aligulac-the original story is something special. People like Kashim pour in countless hours of work and they usually put in everything that's on liquipedia and more
They also outline exactly how they calculate ratings...
A bunch of effort having gone into it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean it's accurate though. I mean, right now it ranks Clem ahead of Maru and Solar ahead of Rogue (and both those Zergs are behind HeroMarine). And honestly there are a lot more questions I could raise just about the top ten.
I don't think that it's off because the people behind it are somehow biased, I think it's just really hard to come up with something like Aligulac that's consistently accurate. Given the difficulty of ranking like this, is argue they're probably doing about as well as is possible. But if you "hate people" who date disrespect it, if have to say I more hate those who treat it as the word of god.
The ranking is perfectly fine imo, if you can use your own knowledge of who does a lot of online / smaller tournaments and have their ratings inflated (typically with EPT Cup), who barely play online (sOs, therefore his ratings aren’t accurate because he did not « peak » to his true rating). Rogue is usually performing kinda badly in some events and then winning dominating the opposition, without doing that much online tournaments, so he still has a rating closer to his real one compared to sOs, but if you know he can beat anyone you won’t be surprised. In average though, he will perform relatively to his rating.
There is also the known fact that you can’t compare players across regions, so don’t compare foreigners with Koreans directly. For example, HeroMarine will inflate his rating by dominating the cups without Serral / Reynor, and these two will usually farm him and others so they will have great rating without playing that many games, benefitting from the inflated ratings of the foreigners playing in the cup.
So, the ranking is "perfectly fine" as long as you manually:
1. Separate the players out by region 2. Up the rating for players who don't play much online 3. Lower the ratings for players who are very active online 4. Account for highly inconsistent levels of play from some players
After doing all this... what's the point? That's almost the same level of evaluation you'd have to do to rank players from scratch. I know you meant this as a defense, but it reads as a harsher criticism of Aligulac than I was actually making.
Well there is no perfect rating system? And it works perfectly fine for most purposes? Like, if you were to liquibet according to aligulac, I am pretty sure you would be in the top 100, maybe even top 50.
On September 23 2021 19:32 Argonauta wrote: After seeing that with only 4 hours of difference there is a massive disparity between kr players and foreigners in the playoffs I am sure next ESL regional finals will start now at 6 pm EU.
Yea they love to make Koreans stay up all night. Magic too.
On September 23 2021 05:39 swarminfestor wrote: On footnote: Alligulac never give justice to Rogue. Their prediction over player like Rogue always goes wrong. Even Alligulac predict that it is mismatched between him and Clem ahead of their match. For this reason alone, perhaps he get the most anti-fans among Sc2 community because he is hype killer just as casters claimed, or those gamblers losing their money because Alligulac predicting otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Aligulac just uses a bunch of math to make predictions and it isn't some guy laughing evilly while he plots to destroy Rogue's reputation through a series of misinformed ratings.
Actually thats exactly what aligulac is. Its just a bunch of subjective personal ratings from the developers, they don't use any proper elo algorithms. They also manually enter all the tournament scores and omit the ones they don't like.
Personally I hate people who disrespect the amount of effort that goes behind a site like Aligulac-the original story is something special. People like Kashim pour in countless hours of work and they usually put in everything that's on liquipedia and more
They also outline exactly how they calculate ratings...
A bunch of effort having gone into it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean it's accurate though. I mean, right now it ranks Clem ahead of Maru and Solar ahead of Rogue (and both those Zergs are behind HeroMarine). And honestly there are a lot more questions I could raise just about the top ten.
I don't think that it's off because the people behind it are somehow biased, I think it's just really hard to come up with something like Aligulac that's consistently accurate. Given the difficulty of ranking like this, is argue they're probably doing about as well as is possible. But if you "hate people" who date disrespect it, if have to say I more hate those who treat it as the word of god.
Meant to bash OP because they seem to have a weird hate boner for Aligulac-not saying anything about it being god; I pointed out where they were wrong and the work they were diminishing.
Aligulac addresses all of those issues here http://aligulac.com/about/faq/ but I think they understate how much of a problem offline vs online is-Rogue lost a bo5 against Bunny in a WardiTV tournament but I don't ever see that happening in a GSL match.
On September 23 2021 12:40 FuRong wrote: It was a great event, but it's a pity that it's only listed as Major rather than Premier on Liquipedia because of the prize pool. It's the same for the upcoming KoB.
If only they could find one more sponsor to bump up the prize pool a little bit!
I want to say something I feel very strongly about.
There are way too many premier tournaments that don't deserve to be premier.
It fiminishes the importance of actual tournaments, makes a joke out of competition and inflates a lot of players that shouldn't be anywhere near considered as greats.
That being said, separating a premier tournament due to prize pool is maybe not the best metric either (I know there are other factors).
On September 23 2021 12:40 FuRong wrote: It was a great event, but it's a pity that it's only listed as Major rather than Premier on Liquipedia because of the prize pool. It's the same for the upcoming KoB.
If only they could find one more sponsor to bump up the prize pool a little bit!
I want to say something I feel very strongly about.
There are way too many premier tournaments that don't deserve to be premier.
It fiminishes the importance of actual tournaments, makes a joke out of competition and inflates a lot of players that shouldn't be anywhere near considered as greats.
That being said, separating a premier tournament due to prize pool is maybe not the best metric either (I know there are other factors).
I mean, the legacy of the players' is determined by how the community remembers them. As long as most of us are aware of context behind the tournaments, the "major" and 'premier" names won't affect how we view certain tournaments or players.
On September 23 2021 12:40 FuRong wrote: It was a great event, but it's a pity that it's only listed as Major rather than Premier on Liquipedia because of the prize pool. It's the same for the upcoming KoB.
If only they could find one more sponsor to bump up the prize pool a little bit!
I want to say something I feel very strongly about.
There are way too many premier tournaments that don't deserve to be premier.
It fiminishes the importance of actual tournaments, makes a joke out of competition and inflates a lot of players that shouldn't be anywhere near considered as greats.
That being said, separating a premier tournament due to prize pool is maybe not the best metric either (I know there are other factors).
I mean, the legacy of the players' is determined by how the community remembers them. As long as most of us are aware of context behind the tournaments, the "major" and 'premier" names won't affect how we view certain tournaments or players.
yeah I think most people know that liquipedia's "premier" and major" definition is just a very arbitrary categorization and don't value it that much. Except the fans of a certain player I guess *cough*. But when TaeJa had the most liquipedia premier wins most people were aware of the context behind his tournament wins and didn't rank him above more accomplished players.
On September 23 2021 12:40 FuRong wrote: It was a great event, but it's a pity that it's only listed as Major rather than Premier on Liquipedia because of the prize pool. It's the same for the upcoming KoB.
If only they could find one more sponsor to bump up the prize pool a little bit!
I want to say something I feel very strongly about.
There are way too many premier tournaments that don't deserve to be premier.
It fiminishes the importance of actual tournaments, makes a joke out of competition and inflates a lot of players that shouldn't be anywhere near considered as greats.
That being said, separating a premier tournament due to prize pool is maybe not the best metric either (I know there are other factors).
I mean, the legacy of the players' is determined by how the community remembers them. As long as most of us are aware of context behind the tournaments, the "major" and 'premier" names won't affect how we view certain tournaments or players.
yeah I think most people know that liquipedia's "premier" and major" definition is just a very arbitrary categorization and don't value it that much. Except the fans of a certain player I guess *cough*. But when TaeJa had the most liquipedia premier wins most people were aware of the context behind his tournament wins and didn't rank him above more accomplished players.
weren't most of Taeja's premier wins outside of Korea and not having as many of the best players like this ASUS ROG?
On September 23 2021 12:40 FuRong wrote: It was a great event, but it's a pity that it's only listed as Major rather than Premier on Liquipedia because of the prize pool. It's the same for the upcoming KoB.
If only they could find one more sponsor to bump up the prize pool a little bit!
I want to say something I feel very strongly about.
There are way too many premier tournaments that don't deserve to be premier.
It fiminishes the importance of actual tournaments, makes a joke out of competition and inflates a lot of players that shouldn't be anywhere near considered as greats.
That being said, separating a premier tournament due to prize pool is maybe not the best metric either (I know there are other factors).
I mean, the legacy of the players' is determined by how the community remembers them. As long as most of us are aware of context behind the tournaments, the "major" and 'premier" names won't affect how we view certain tournaments or players.
You would think that but look at the past TL "best players of all time" and you'd see that a lot of people take into account the "premier" list on liquipedia like Gospel in an attempt to be impartial, and they weight a lot of your aments the same when they aren't.
EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/asusrog/online2021/rogonlinebracket.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/asusrog/online2021/rogonlinegroups2.png)
