I have been lurking forever and a thought came across my mind today so i wanted to get your thoughts
I find that medivacs almost always have energy (expect for really long extended fights) meaning terrans stim for everything. even if the stim costs their army 1000 hp in health they will still stim to catch an observer or a roach that they probably would have not got anyway. They even stim to kill single scouting marines in TvT.
I think they spam the stim button for every engagement because they always have medivac energy (i assume due to the recharge rate) and there is no repercussions for constantly stimming. I wouldn't want to affect current engagements so i was wondering would a reduction to the energy recharge rate of medivacs force terrans to think a little more about stimming for everything?
In TvT this strategic use of stimming could be a game decider.
I feel it would add a little more skill to the game.. Thoughts?
edit: i also feel this would bring the energy use aspect in line with other energy using units that players have to actively manage during the game Vipers - go recharge on buildings HT's - Turn used HT's into archons, manage energy and conservative storms on army's Ghosts - Need conservative use of EMP.
please note i don't play sc2 now and have never played terran so i have NO idea if it feels like this in games but i watch a lot of games and seeing medviacs constantly healing and constant stiming just seems like something that is taken for granted but i am happy to accept if i am wrong and stupid :D
I think that reducing medivac energy regen would lead to less fighting in general rather than specifically less stimming which I think just makes the game strictly worse.
My gues would be that T would just response with more medivacs to such a nerf, just like Z responded with even more banelings to the baneling nerf. Also this would be a pretty big one, as it would affect the overall strength of the entire Bio - playstile, so it could also shift the meta way more towards mech instead. I m not convinced, that it would be a good change and it would 100% be a pretty risky thing for Blizz to do. All that combined with the fact, that number tweaking is usually not realy a big deal for 95% of the playerbase, I don t belive such a change is ever even going to be considered.
On October 14 2020 21:32 ejozl wrote: I agree. I always felt like Medivac Boost should be costing energy, it would've been a really good way to make the energy feel more valuable.
Or at least they DON'T regen energy while boosting would be nice.
There are alot of fights in TvZ where both have their army decimated and suddenly every marine has his own healbot and is basically invincible. This pisses me of both as a player and as a spectator.
The only semi reliable way for zerg to get rid of medivacs is viper and/or corruptor. Mutas and Hydras are not an option vs marine + mine / tanks
I'm not sure I agree with the premise--overstimming does have consequences currently--but even if that were the case this seems like a very dangerous thing to nerf for not much benefit. Terran tempo being slowed or the number of medivacs being increased doesn't make for better viewing.
On October 14 2020 21:32 ejozl wrote: I agree. I always felt like Medivac Boost should be costing energy, it would've been a really good way to make the energy feel more valuable.
There are alot of fights in TvZ where both have their army decimated and suddenly every marine has his own healbot and is basically invincible. This pisses me of both as a player and as a spectator.
The only semi reliable way for zerg to get rid of medivacs is viper and/or corruptor. Mutas and Hydras are not an option vs marine + mine / tanks
? well you have units that cost mineral and gas so thankfully they have a purpose? And you can catch medivacs with mutas a lot of the time actually, that is why it is hard to drop vs mutas for example.
Back when feedback was actually good it would be common to keep your medevac energy below the current / max HP of the unit, because otherwise it would be an easy one-shot for very little energy. Using EMP on medevacs isn't unheard of, either, plus they can be disabled by ravens or simply zoned out with high range AA units (vikings, thors, tempests, carriers).
Zerg don't have a way to target or hurt a unit's energy directly, so the indirect methods would be to inflict splash damage onto units or bait spells.That's just a quirk of the race; luckily they have many sources of splash damage and fast movers to force survival stims (for bonus speed on retreat).
I guess as a spectator you can probably argue that in games of TY, Maru and Inno, where they make really strong pushes and micro effectively. They also tend to keep building Medivacs since they loose one or two in every other engagement, hence, they will always have medivacs with energy.
If you over stim your units you will always drain medivac energy, that is why they always select a small chunk of their army to catch something (observer, roach, etc.) even to scout ahead of their army. The games that end in medivacs depleting their energy always goes south for the terran playing bio.
Well, it is locked behind the fusion core, so if you never intended to make BCs or get Liberators it's an afterthought. Since it doesn't increase your speed during afterburners, there's not much of a benefit to investing in the upgrade when your plan is to crush face with a 2-2 bio 200 supply timing. Maybe we'll see more of it as the other races get better at actually killing the medivacs, who knows?
Medivacs run out of energy all the time. In TvT and TvP especially you can't really afford to sit there and constantly produce medivacs, you need libs/vikings. So it's basically inevitable that if you're taking a lot of fights with 4-6 medivacs then they will run out. If you nerf that, you're forcing terran to play more defensively which given the construction of this game is doom.
On October 14 2020 21:32 ejozl wrote: I agree. I always felt like Medivac Boost should be costing energy, it would've been a really good way to make the energy feel more valuable.
Or at least they DON'T regen energy while boosting would be nice.
There are alot of fights in TvZ where both have their army decimated and suddenly every marine has his own healbot and is basically invincible. This pisses me of both as a player and as a spectator.
The only semi reliable way for zerg to get rid of medivacs is viper and/or corruptor. Mutas and Hydras are not an option vs marine + mine / tanks
See i didn't even know boost was free! That would at least put more play into dropping.
As a spectator i also find it funny when the fight has just finished outside a players base and the terran is left with like 3 maurders and 5 marines but the game is over because each has it's own medivac and any units made can't out dammage the amount of healing so it's gg!
Speaking just for PvT, picking off medivacs is an important aspect of the matchup to prevent the horrible situation when theres 8 marauders and a smattering of marines under 8 medivacs while I only have 14 or so units left over myself. I think it's good to keep open that kind of extra priority.
It kinda has been. Not exactly the energy regen rate, which is the same for all units and buildings, but the amount of HP regenerated per 1 energy. During the HotS to LotV transition Blizzard made some undocumented changes to previously existed units, such as buffing lings adrenal from 20% to 40% without giving any reasons. One of those ninja buffs was medivac healing rate. There is no patch note for this change but according to Liquipedia LotV medivac heals 33% more HP for the same amount of energy than its WoL/HotS version. So I guess this state of affairs is exactly what balance team wants, otherwise they wouldn't make that change.
I think if your goal is to create games that look different or have more skill or "strategic use of stimming" then this won't really do much. In my opinion, at best, it would produce similar-looking games in which terran was just incrementally weaker, and at worst it would discourage active play (and lead to some really rough to watch TvTs).
See i didn't even know boost was free! That would at least put more play into dropping.
As a spectator i also find it funny when the fight has just finished outside a players base and the terran is left with like 3 maurders and 5 marines but the game is over because each has it's own medivac and any units made can't out dammage the amount of healing so it's gg!
So what you are saying terran had 8 medivacs over, they effectively won the fight with. 800 minerals and 800 gas worth of units plus marauders and marines. Imagine that would have been three tanks/immortals instead, no one would be surprised or "amused" the players survived the fight with that much army value and won the game. Medivacs might not be considered army by spectators but they are, they like all others units need production fascilities, time and resources to be made.
In big fights medivacs bring low value besides unlocking the option to stim, against banelings, tanks, colossi, disruptor, storm medivacs adds little. It is when its scrappy they give the most value or when dropping obviously.
On October 15 2020 03:15 mikedupp wrote: Destiny yesterday went on a mini rant about this exact subject
Destiny probably is the most qualified person to speak about the state of sc2 atm. If he says medivacs are broken, the devs really need to look into it.
Anyhow I watch quite a lot of high level terrans play tournaments and ladder. And nearly every time at some point in the day I hear a terran irritatingly say he cant push or finish the game yet because their medivacs are out of juice basicially calling them useless supply for some time untill they regen again. So I cant really say I feel the ssame way on this subject and a change in this direction will hurt them too much imo.
Overstimming drains the energy heavily and really fast. Don't know what OPs looking at but players who overstim don't bank energy on their medevacs. Also I don't see a good reason to change energy regen when you can simply make the energy bank smaller thus limiting their usage.
In the spoiler is a video of the recent match Cure v Maru with some timestamps + Show Spoiler +
16:30 - 16:40 you can see plenty of medevacs with no energy and Maru isn't exactly known for overstimming. Consider also Maru's playstyle, in the endgame his medevacs has plenty of energy, but he doesn't have that many bio units! (also marines die really fast in TvT )
32:55 - an empty medevac. As was already mentioned - other units take higher priority and stim is quite common... 34:00 - Cure show us a depleted medevac
49:20 - some depleted medevacs
AFter I saw several depleted medevacs in 3 games in a row I stopped the show. In every game there were medevacs without energy. It doesn't seem to me like a big issue.
I think the recharge rate is fine, but starting energy might be a little high. I feel like most people forget medivacs even have energy until there is like a 20 minute back and forth TvZ
Medicacs are core to the whole way bio works they enable Terran to accrue value over time and get efficiency out of their army, since their does not appear to be imbalance regarding them currently I don’t see any reason to change them.
Frequent use of stim does lead to medivac energy exhaustion. One way to manage this is to send exhausted medivacs for a drop and replace them with new ones. We may notice good terran players do this pretty often. I like the idea of afterburner consume energy if other aspects get adjusted accordingly.
As for the situations where there is 1 medivac per marine/Marauder, god forbid the terran's opponent goes medivac hunting instead of whining on TL and begging blizzard to nerf terran without compensation
I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
I would create a building for VCS, Drones and Probes to keep them protected by harrassement and their placement could look like Total Annihilation,.. then the command center (hatchery...) could be reduced to 3x3 and depending his distance from mineral, allow you to build this kind of extractor on mineral fields.
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
And much more for casuals
You do realize bio without the stim is useless after like 4th minute? maybe even sooner. Without the stim you lose DPS and movement speed, you can go directly to Mech which has better both.
But hey, cool, marines will get more hp and nobody will care as bio won't be played at all Medevacs energy issue solved
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
And much more for casuals
You do realize bio without the stim is useless after like 4th minute? maybe even sooner. Without the stim you lose DPS and movement speed, you can go directly to Mech which has better both.
But hey, cool, marines will get more hp and nobody will care as bio won't be played at all Medevacs energy issue solved
If you re questionning a bit, stimpack doesn t really fit to the terran race (generally speaking, in other games so,...who cares ?), which is known for holding position. Of course, it s only something impossible to imagine sc2 without stimpack
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
I would create a building for VCS, Drones and Probes to keep them protected by harrassement and their placement could look like Total Annihilation,.. then the command center (hatchery...) could be reduced to 3x3 and depending his distance from mineral, allow you to build this kind of extractor on mineral fields.
And much more for casuals
So you want a completely different game?
Honestly though, balance feels really good right now (T > Z > P > T, gut feeling, can't do stats cause at work). Really curious what the next patches want to tackle. I would maybe give a small buff to Ultra through the speed upgrad (from 10% to 15% or sth), Mommaship unyankable and maybe a more meaningful spell and a superslight nerf to mines (walking speed, burrow speed or sth)
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
And much more for casuals
You do realize bio without the stim is useless after like 4th minute? maybe even sooner. Without the stim you lose DPS and movement speed, you can go directly to Mech which has better both.
But hey, cool, marines will get more hp and nobody will care as bio won't be played at all Medevacs energy issue solved
If you re questionning a bit, stimpack doesn t really fit to the terran race (generally speaking, in other games so,...who cares ?), which is known for holding position. Of course, it s only something impossible to imagine sc2 without stimpack
It's not about if it fits, Bio without stimpack has 2 major issues 1) much less DPS 2) much less movement speed
#1 means that other armies will walk over bio because bio won't be able to do the damage #2 means that while bio survives longer it will still be a fragile composition and now it will have very hard times kiting or splitting
Your idea would make the bio unplayable. Hey, marines have more hp. So what? Just surround them with speedlings nad a-move banelings. Hey, marines have more hp - interceptors don't care and I want to see you running under them WITHOUT stim and surviving. And how you gonna snipe tanks in TvT without the mobility nor the dps?
Like address the things I posted - the lack of mobility and the lack of dps.
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
And much more for casuals
You do realize bio without the stim is useless after like 4th minute? maybe even sooner. Without the stim you lose DPS and movement speed, you can go directly to Mech which has better both.
But hey, cool, marines will get more hp and nobody will care as bio won't be played at all Medevacs energy issue solved
If you re questionning a bit, stimpack doesn t really fit to the terran race (generally speaking, in other games so,...who cares ?), which is known for holding position. Of course, it s only something impossible to imagine sc2 without stimpack
It's not about if it fits, Bio without stimpack has 2 major issues 1) much less DPS 2) much less movement speed
#1 means that other armies will walk over bio because bio won't be able to do the damage #2 means that while bio survives longer it will still be a fragile composition and now it will have very hard times kiting or splitting
Your idea would make the bio unplayable. Hey, marines have more hp. So what? Just surround them with speedlings nad a-move banelings. Hey, marines have more hp - interceptors don't care and I want to see you running under them WITHOUT stim and surviving. And how you gonna snipe tanks in TvT without the mobility nor the dps?
Like address the things I posted - the lack of mobility and the lack of dps.
You re right, i would be pleased by an entire another game.
But Air units like Carrier or interceptor has to be thought with cautious cause actually it could be really game breaking in a new game mod (cause there s no obstacle and movement unit stacking ??!!!! what s the hell, guy you can t enjoy a "tactical" game when you re hit by a parasitic bomb which ask you to act like if you re resolving a design choice by Blizzard).
I doesn t care about zerglings cause they have "idiot skill" so they move together like a cluster (as many of zerg units in fact excepted of hydralisk maybe) and regarding of tanks, your opinion doesn t matter cause the splash damage will really be weaker (so it s a matter of caracteristic, armor, damage and so...)
I will define Basic units and Advanced units which one can only be created when a special supply count allow it (can be increased with upgrades - Of course a cap level will always exists). Casters, Air units, Colossus, Ultralisks will belong to this category. If you work like that, the balance is really simplier to acheive.
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
And much more for casuals
You do realize bio without the stim is useless after like 4th minute? maybe even sooner. Without the stim you lose DPS and movement speed, you can go directly to Mech which has better both.
But hey, cool, marines will get more hp and nobody will care as bio won't be played at all Medevacs energy issue solved
If you re questionning a bit, stimpack doesn t really fit to the terran race (generally speaking, in other games so,...who cares ?), which is known for holding position. Of course, it s only something impossible to imagine sc2 without stimpack
This is entirely your conception of terran race. No one shares that.
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
And much more for casuals
You do realize bio without the stim is useless after like 4th minute? maybe even sooner. Without the stim you lose DPS and movement speed, you can go directly to Mech which has better both.
But hey, cool, marines will get more hp and nobody will care as bio won't be played at all Medevacs energy issue solved
If you re questionning a bit, stimpack doesn t really fit to the terran race (generally speaking, in other games so,...who cares ?), which is known for holding position. Of course, it s only something impossible to imagine sc2 without stimpack
This is entirely your conception of terran race. No one shares that.
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
And much more for casuals
You do realize bio without the stim is useless after like 4th minute? maybe even sooner. Without the stim you lose DPS and movement speed, you can go directly to Mech which has better both.
But hey, cool, marines will get more hp and nobody will care as bio won't be played at all Medevacs energy issue solved
If you re questionning a bit, stimpack doesn t really fit to the terran race (generally speaking, in other games so,...who cares ?), which is known for holding position. Of course, it s only something impossible to imagine sc2 without stimpack
This is entirely your conception of terran race. No one shares that.
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
And much more for casuals
You do realize bio without the stim is useless after like 4th minute? maybe even sooner. Without the stim you lose DPS and movement speed, you can go directly to Mech which has better both.
But hey, cool, marines will get more hp and nobody will care as bio won't be played at all Medevacs energy issue solved
If you re questionning a bit, stimpack doesn t really fit to the terran race (generally speaking, in other games so,...who cares ?), which is known for holding position. Of course, it s only something impossible to imagine sc2 without stimpack
It's not about if it fits, Bio without stimpack has 2 major issues 1) much less DPS 2) much less movement speed
#1 means that other armies will walk over bio because bio won't be able to do the damage #2 means that while bio survives longer it will still be a fragile composition and now it will have very hard times kiting or splitting
Your idea would make the bio unplayable. Hey, marines have more hp. So what? Just surround them with speedlings nad a-move banelings. Hey, marines have more hp - interceptors don't care and I want to see you running under them WITHOUT stim and surviving. And how you gonna snipe tanks in TvT without the mobility nor the dps?
Like address the things I posted - the lack of mobility and the lack of dps.
You re right, i would be pleased by an entire another game.
But Air units like Carrier or interceptor has to be thought with cautious cause actually it could be really game breaking in a new game mod (cause there s no obstacle and movement unit stacking ??!!!! what s the hell, guy you can t enjoy a "tactical" game when you re hit by a parasitic bomb which ask you to act like if you re resolving a design choice by Blizzard).
I doesn t care about zerglings cause they have "idiot skill" so they move together like a cluster (as many of zerg units in fact excepted of hydralisk maybe) and regarding of tanks, your opinion doesn t matter cause the splash damage will really be weaker (so it s a matter of caracteristic, armor, damage and so...)
Dont listen to them, your ideas are all amazing. You should contact Blizz and become their main designer !
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
And much more for casuals
You do realize bio without the stim is useless after like 4th minute? maybe even sooner. Without the stim you lose DPS and movement speed, you can go directly to Mech which has better both.
But hey, cool, marines will get more hp and nobody will care as bio won't be played at all Medevacs energy issue solved
If you re questionning a bit, stimpack doesn t really fit to the terran race (generally speaking, in other games so,...who cares ?), which is known for holding position. Of course, it s only something impossible to imagine sc2 without stimpack
It's not about if it fits, Bio without stimpack has 2 major issues 1) much less DPS 2) much less movement speed
#1 means that other armies will walk over bio because bio won't be able to do the damage #2 means that while bio survives longer it will still be a fragile composition and now it will have very hard times kiting or splitting
Your idea would make the bio unplayable. Hey, marines have more hp. So what? Just surround them with speedlings nad a-move banelings. Hey, marines have more hp - interceptors don't care and I want to see you running under them WITHOUT stim and surviving. And how you gonna snipe tanks in TvT without the mobility nor the dps?
Like address the things I posted - the lack of mobility and the lack of dps.
You re right, i would be pleased by an entire another game.
But Air units like Carrier or interceptor has to be thought with cautious cause actually it could be really game breaking in a new game mod (cause there s no obstacle and movement unit stacking ??!!!! what s the hell, guy you can t enjoy a "tactical" game when you re hit by a parasitic bomb which ask you to act like if you re resolving a design choice by Blizzard).
I doesn t care about zerglings cause they have "idiot skill" so they move together like a cluster (as many of zerg units in fact excepted of hydralisk maybe) and regarding of tanks, your opinion doesn t matter cause the splash damage will really be weaker (so it s a matter of caracteristic, armor, damage and so...)
I will define Basic units and Advanced units which one can only be created when a special supply count allow it (can be increased with upgrades - Of course a cap level will always exists). Casters, Air units, Colossus, Ultralisks will belong to this category. If you work like that, the balance is really simplier to acheive.
Cannot tell if you\'re serious, or trolling. Anyway, you have the map editor, feel free to implement these changes and release a map/mod. It shouldn't be that hard to edit marine and increase their clumping range(so they spread naturally), increase their hp, add them some fancy ability and remove stimpack. And then we can try these awesome changes to see they're bad.
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
And much more for casuals
You do realize bio without the stim is useless after like 4th minute? maybe even sooner. Without the stim you lose DPS and movement speed, you can go directly to Mech which has better both.
But hey, cool, marines will get more hp and nobody will care as bio won't be played at all Medevacs energy issue solved
If you re questionning a bit, stimpack doesn t really fit to the terran race (generally speaking, in other games so,...who cares ?), which is known for holding position. Of course, it s only something impossible to imagine sc2 without stimpack
It's not about if it fits, Bio without stimpack has 2 major issues 1) much less DPS 2) much less movement speed
#1 means that other armies will walk over bio because bio won't be able to do the damage #2 means that while bio survives longer it will still be a fragile composition and now it will have very hard times kiting or splitting
Your idea would make the bio unplayable. Hey, marines have more hp. So what? Just surround them with speedlings nad a-move banelings. Hey, marines have more hp - interceptors don't care and I want to see you running under them WITHOUT stim and surviving. And how you gonna snipe tanks in TvT without the mobility nor the dps?
Like address the things I posted - the lack of mobility and the lack of dps.
You re right, i would be pleased by an entire another game.
But Air units like Carrier or interceptor has to be thought with cautious cause actually it could be really game breaking in a new game mod (cause there s no obstacle and movement unit stacking ??!!!! what s the hell, guy you can t enjoy a "tactical" game when you re hit by a parasitic bomb which ask you to act like if you re resolving a design choice by Blizzard).
I doesn t care about zerglings cause they have "idiot skill" so they move together like a cluster (as many of zerg units in fact excepted of hydralisk maybe) and regarding of tanks, your opinion doesn t matter cause the splash damage will really be weaker (so it s a matter of caracteristic, armor, damage and so...)
I will define Basic units and Advanced units which one can only be created when a special supply count allow it (can be increased with upgrades - Of course a cap level will always exists). Casters, Air units, Colossus, Ultralisks will belong to this category. If you work like that, the balance is really simplier to acheive.
Cannot tell if you\'re serious, or trolling. Anyway, you have the map editor, feel free to implement these changes and release a map/mod. It shouldn't be that hard to edit marine and increase their clumping range(so they spread naturally), increase their hp, add them some fancy ability and remove stimpack. And then we can try these awesome changes to see they're bad.
If players are enought blind to play end game with always the same composition it s because a real time strategy (RTS game) can t only be tactical. If you don t implemented serious and restrictive rules you wil always play carriers in end game for 10 more years. It s just a way among many others to acheive to a new entire game.
See i didn't even know boost was free! That would at least put more play into dropping.
As a spectator i also find it funny when the fight has just finished outside a players base and the terran is left with like 3 maurders and 5 marines but the game is over because each has it's own medivac and any units made can't out dammage the amount of healing so it's gg!
So what you are saying terran had 8 medivacs over, they effectively won the fight with. 800 minerals and 800 gas worth of units plus marauders and marines. Imagine that would have been three tanks/immortals instead, no one would be surprised or "amused" the players survived the fight with that much army value and won the game. Medivacs might not be considered army by spectators but they are, they like all others units need production fascilities, time and resources to be made.
In big fights medivacs bring low value besides unlocking the option to stim, against banelings, tanks, colossi, disruptor, storm medivacs adds little. It is when its scrappy they give the most value or when dropping obviously.
What i was actually thinking was... Considering how much HP a medviac heals over a long drawn out fight where the medviacs are healing 12.6hp a second and rarely do i see them run out of energy then something should be in place to make force terrans to consider how often they stim / drop so they have to conserve some of that energy.
You say that the money would be better spent in other units but the medivac is probably the best value unit in the game (apart from free yolo swarm hosts) so a medivac is worth far more in army compared to that resource being used elsewhere when compared with terrans other options.
Heres the math as people are saying they see them run out all the time (i never see all medivacs run out of energy which implies the fully heal an army before running out). it may be as people have said depleted ones are used for drops etc and full ones come in to replace them
Math: Medivac starts with 50 energy - as per wiki it does 4 hp healing per energy used and can heal up to 12.6 hp per second. A medivac recharge rate is 0.56 per second which equates to 34 energy per min. You get 4 HP per unit of energy and you can use 3 units a second. This means the following
When your medivac is built it can heal for 16 seconds straight (50 energy / 3 units a second) with 200 HP to give to units you can build 2 medivacs every 30 seconds so you can get 400HP of healing every 30 seconds. 800HP per minute which is the same as 16 marines just from build times.
Then you have regen:
You gain 34 energy per min which equates to 136HP (or 11 seconds of constant healing). across 4 medivacs this is 544 HP which is around 11 full marines. In terms of stim this means for every 1 minute a medivac is out you can stim 13 marines once and 20 marines once from when each medivac is built.
If you have 4 medivacs out for 1 min after they are built you can stim 134 marines once over the course of that 1 min 30 seconds (providing you have 2 starports with reactors) and fully regen their hp. or 77 marines twice etc.. 30 second build time and 1 min of energy regen (800 initial and 544 regen).
to me that just sounds like a lot of healing which is only amplified over the course of say a 4-5 min fight. those 4 medivacs over a 5 min back and forth can heal 3520 hp which to me seems a lot.
basically for every minute a medivac is alive (excluding base stats) you can stim 13 marines once which actually doesn't sound that bad (until you add the 20 marine base) and how quickly you can build medivacs.
I'm starting to think the base energy might be the reason i never see empty ones
When you stim like I do you would be calling for a medivac buff. I don't play bio as much as mech because my medicacs rarely have energy and I hate building them all game lol.
On October 15 2020 21:15 BisuDagger wrote: When you stim like I do you would be calling for a medivac buff. I don't play bio as much as mech because my medicacs rarely have energy and I hate building them all game lol.
I agree, we need 2 healing beams like in the campaign! I like your style! Also auto-stim FTW
See i didn't even know boost was free! That would at least put more play into dropping.
As a spectator i also find it funny when the fight has just finished outside a players base and the terran is left with like 3 maurders and 5 marines but the game is over because each has it's own medivac and any units made can't out dammage the amount of healing so it's gg!
So what you are saying terran had 8 medivacs over, they effectively won the fight with. 800 minerals and 800 gas worth of units plus marauders and marines. Imagine that would have been three tanks/immortals instead, no one would be surprised or "amused" the players survived the fight with that much army value and won the game. Medivacs might not be considered army by spectators but they are, they like all others units need production fascilities, time and resources to be made.
In big fights medivacs bring low value besides unlocking the option to stim, against banelings, tanks, colossi, disruptor, storm medivacs adds little. It is when its scrappy they give the most value or when dropping obviously.
What i was actually thinking was... Considering how much HP a medviac heals over a long drawn out fight where the medviacs are healing 12.6hp a second and rarely do i see them run out of energy then something should be in place to make force terrans to consider how often they stim / drop so they have to conserve some of that energy.
You say that the money would be better spent in other units but the medivac is probably the best value unit in the game (apart from free yolo swarm hosts) so a medivac is worth far more in army compared to that resource being used elsewhere when compared with terrans other options.
Heres the math as people are saying they see them run out all the time
(i never see all medivacs run out of energy which implies the fully heal an army before running out+ Show Spoiler +
). it may be as people have said depleted ones are used for drops etc and full ones come in to replace them
Math: Medivac starts with 50 energy - as per wiki it does 4 hp healing per energy used and can heal up to 12.6 hp per second. A medivac recharge rate is 0.56 per second which equates to 34 energy per min. You get 4 HP per unit of energy and you can use 3 units a second. This means the following
When your medivac is built it can heal for 16 seconds straight (50 energy / 3 units a second) with 200 HP to give to units you can build 2 medivacs every 30 seconds so you can get 400HP of healing every 30 seconds. 800HP per minute which is the same as 16 marines just from build times.
Then you have regen:
You gain 34 energy per min which equates to 136HP (or 11 seconds of constant healing). across 4 medivacs this is 544 HP which is around 11 full marines. In terms of stim this means for every 1 minute a medivac is out you can stim 13 marines once and 20 marines once from when each medivac is built.
If you have 4 medivacs out for 1 min after they are built you can stim 134 marines once over the course of that 1 min 30 seconds (providing you have 2 starports with reactors) and fully regen their hp. or 77 marines twice etc.. 30 second build time and 1 min of energy regen (800 initial and 544 regen).
to me that just sounds like a lot of healing which is only amplified over the course of say a 4-5 min fight. those 4 medivacs over a 5 min back and forth can heal 3520 hp which to me seems a lot.
basically for every minute a medivac is alive (excluding base stats) you can stim 13 marines once which actually doesn't sound that bad (until you add the 20 marine base) and how quickly you can build medivacs.
I'm starting to think the base energy might be the reason i never see empty ones
I posted a video with time marks of a pro game where medevacs had depleated energy. The fact you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Actually in many better pro games they will run out of energy because there's constantly something happening.
Edit> it more implies that you have to reinforce medevacs and not be fine with the old ones unless you cut the bio production
On October 15 2020 19:51 Vision_ wrote: I could be interesting to speak about the "disuse" (abort) of "one upgrade BO" than talking about medivacs.
I see in every game 2 upgrades simultaneously BO.. Is it a standart now ?
It's much more likely that you'll win the game due to the fact that you're one upgrade ahead than that you'll lose the game because your opponent has a slight army supply advantage due to the fact that they saved money by only researching one of the two upgrades. So the choice between researching 2 upgrades or going for a 1 upgrade build order is an easy one.
On October 15 2020 19:51 Vision_ wrote: I could be interesting to speak about the "disuse" (abort) of "one upgrade BO" than talking about medivacs.
I see in every game 2 upgrades simultaneously BO.. Is it a standart now ?
It's much more likely that you'll win the game due to the fact that you're one upgrade ahead than that you'll lose the game because your opponent has a slight army supply advantage due to the fact that they saved money by only researching one of the two upgrades. So the choice between researching 2 upgrades or going for a 1 upgrade build order is an easy one.
I remember some BO in HoTS with only one upgrade researched, isn t again a loss of tactics in SC2 over time ?
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
I would create a building for VCS, Drones and Probes to keep them protected by harrassement and their placement could look like Total Annihilation,.. then the command center (hatchery...) could be reduced to 3x3 and depending his distance from mineral, allow you to build this kind of extractor on mineral fields.
And much more for casuals
You’re basically cutting out a ton of the flashy bio micro that a lot of players even at a casual level are impressed by and try to emulate.
I would agree the game is slightly too fast, especially as engagements scale and all the crazy micro becomes too difficult or inefficient to execute.
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
I would create a building for VCS, Drones and Probes to keep them protected by harrassement and their placement could look like Total Annihilation,.. then the command center (hatchery...) could be reduced to 3x3 and depending his distance from mineral, allow you to build this kind of extractor on mineral fields.
And much more for casuals
You’re basically cutting out a ton of the flashy bio micro that a lot of players even at a casual level are impressed by and try to emulate.
I would agree the game is slightly too fast, especially as engagements scale and all the crazy micro becomes too difficult or inefficient to execute.
But hey we all have different tastes!
I m thinking the game is turning around and around and i m getting a bit silly as a viewer to wait until they created 16 harvester units by extension plus gas. i remember with nostalgy when you haven t to build 90 vcs and even if i like some features of the economy in LoTV (cause it deserves to be adaptable to the speed of the game), i feel the "return trip" of an harvester unit until his mineral field as an outdated part of the game (..not enought modern..)
On October 14 2020 21:32 ejozl wrote: I agree. I always felt like Medivac Boost should be costing energy, it would've been a really good way to make the energy feel more valuable.
Sure. And make warp prism warp ins cost energy too.
That would make the warp ins more valuable and wouldnt be used to spam 12 zealots in the main. See what I did there?
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
I would create a building for VCS, Drones and Probes to keep them protected by harrassement and their placement could look like Total Annihilation,.. then the command center (hatchery...) could be reduced to 3x3 and depending his distance from mineral, allow you to build this kind of extractor on mineral fields.
And much more for casuals
You’re basically cutting out a ton of the flashy bio micro that a lot of players even at a casual level are impressed by and try to emulate.
I would agree the game is slightly too fast, especially as engagements scale and all the crazy micro becomes too difficult or inefficient to execute.
But hey we all have different tastes!
I m thinking the game is turning around and around and i m getting a bit silly as a viewer to wait until they created 16 harvester units by extension plus gas. i remember with nostalgy when you haven t to build 90 vcs and even if i like some features of the economy in LoTV (cause it deserves to be adaptable to the speed of the game), i feel the "return trip" of an harvester unit until his mineral field as an outdated part of the game (..not enought modern..)
If you can't even spell the "harvester" units, you shouldn't be asserting some sort of view. Anyways 90 scvs is not, and was never a thing, as Terran have Orbital Command.
Workers exist to provide naunce to harassing and attacking econ. To remove the all or nothing part of damaging a base. Workers add depth to the economic system by slowly ramping up a base with investment and with the transferring workers to new bases. An RTS without micro is a game of unit compositions.
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
I would create a building for VCS, Drones and Probes to keep them protected by harrassement and their placement could look like Total Annihilation,.. then the command center (hatchery...) could be reduced to 3x3 and depending his distance from mineral, allow you to build this kind of extractor on mineral fields.
And much more for casuals
You’re basically cutting out a ton of the flashy bio micro that a lot of players even at a casual level are impressed by and try to emulate.
I would agree the game is slightly too fast, especially as engagements scale and all the crazy micro becomes too difficult or inefficient to execute.
But hey we all have different tastes!
I m thinking the game is turning around and around and i m getting a bit silly as a viewer to wait until they created 16 harvester units by extension plus gas. i remember with nostalgy when you haven t to build 90 vcs and even if i like some features of the economy in LoTV (cause it deserves to be adaptable to the speed of the game), i feel the "return trip" of an harvester unit until his mineral field as an outdated part of the game (..not enought modern..)
If you can't even spell the "harvester" units, you shouldn't be asserting some sort of view. Anyways 90 scvs is not, and was never a thing, as Terran have Orbital Command.
Workers exist to provide naunce to harassing and attacking econ. To remove the all or nothing part of damaging a base. Workers add depth to the economic system by slowly ramping up a base with investment and with the transferring workers to new bases. An RTS without micro is a game of unit compositions.
On October 15 2020 19:37 Vision_ wrote: I would like to see a "standing ground" upgrade for Marines instead of stimpack and test it with the new movement implemented by Blizzard (..keeping space between marines bio ball..). The overall speed units and size of the game will be reduced, marauders will perform with concusive shell in a small area, medivacs will heal lesser due to the remove of stimpack but marines would get a little more hit points.
Mines will shot one time and will be placed and linked to a mechwarrior unit (function as broodwar)
Then i ll give Frenzy to the ultralisk, give the nydus network to infestator (with the restoration of infested marines)..
I would create a building for VCS, Drones and Probes to keep them protected by harrassement and their placement could look like Total Annihilation,.. then the command center (hatchery...) could be reduced to 3x3 and depending his distance from mineral, allow you to build this kind of extractor on mineral fields.
And much more for casuals
You’re basically cutting out a ton of the flashy bio micro that a lot of players even at a casual level are impressed by and try to emulate.
I would agree the game is slightly too fast, especially as engagements scale and all the crazy micro becomes too difficult or inefficient to execute.
But hey we all have different tastes!
I m thinking the game is turning around and around and i m getting a bit silly as a viewer to wait until they created 16 harvester units by extension plus gas. i remember with nostalgy when you haven t to build 90 vcs and even if i like some features of the economy in LoTV (cause it deserves to be adaptable to the speed of the game), i feel the "return trip" of an harvester unit until his mineral field as an outdated part of the game (..not enought modern..)
If you can't even spell the "harvester" units, you shouldn't be asserting some sort of view. Anyways 90 scvs is not, and was never a thing, as Terran have Orbital Command.
Workers exist to provide naunce to harassing and attacking econ. To remove the all or nothing part of damaging a base. Workers add depth to the economic system by slowly ramping up a base with investment and with the transferring workers to new bases. An RTS without micro is a game of unit compositions.
There was a period where TY was making 100 scvs
Yes but people here do like if they have never understood
On October 16 2020 02:43 Freeborn wrote: +1 for boost costs energy.
As an alternative the maximum energy could be reduced.
Sure, if that means the medivacs will now heal 2 units at a time while moving and healing costing less energy, I would be fine with it. Only sounds fair no?
EPT
)
