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4.12.0 Patch Notes - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
130 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Ciaus_Dronu
Profile Joined June 2017
South Africa1848 Posts
June 12 2020 10:55 GMT
#81
On June 12 2020 19:49 DrunkenJedi wrote:
Quick question: When T loses all their armories do reloading widow mines lose their cloak?


Yes, it seems so.
They have a red indicator light to show that an armory exists, and it goes away if the Terran no longer has any armories.
Z3nith
Profile Joined October 2017
485 Posts
June 12 2020 11:11 GMT
#82
On June 12 2020 19:55 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2020 19:49 DrunkenJedi wrote:
Quick question: When T loses all their armories do reloading widow mines lose their cloak?


Yes, it seems so.
They have a red indicator light to show that an armory exists, and it goes away if the Terran no longer has any armories.


That could make for some interesting interactions.
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-06-12 12:00:21
June 12 2020 11:56 GMT
#83
the problem is equivalent to the banelings,

WM are cheap, small cost supply and punishing cause they hits multiple while they could fire once (as a spell.. BW)

Banes are punishing and small cost supply units but the most expensive units anyway, WM or Banes you haven t so much to do to use it...
naughtDE
Profile Blog Joined May 2019
158 Posts
June 12 2020 12:39 GMT
#84
On June 12 2020 19:51 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2020 18:52 naughtDE wrote:
On June 12 2020 18:08 SC-Shield wrote:
On June 12 2020 16:37 M2 wrote:
Similar to how mines are in Broodwar, widow mines should not trigger on workers and thats it


Widow mines have been like this for so long, there's no chance this will be done soon. One argument is protoss has an oracle and terran's mines are an equivalent in terms of harassment.

Edit: Why did Blizzard disable changing race while searching for a 3vs3 game? It makes no sense..


It is not equivalent.
1. Widowmines deal extra dmg to shields. Probes aswell as drones have less hp then scvs on top of that, so the only race that doesn't have to suffer instant losses because of a second of not reacting correctly is terran -.- (they do so against disruptors and boy oh boy do they like it)
2. The second point is less about Worker harrass, but the unit in general. It does somewhat compare to an oracle stasis ward, as in it is invisible, you set it and you forgot about it. The only redeeming argument for the disruptor is, at least protoss had to look at the screen while winning the game in 1 shot, terran does not with widowmines. Also, while walking into a stasis ward at the wrong time can cost you the game, and a stasis ward on a mineral line can set you economically far behind, it feels less shitty when you at least get your units back after 21 seconds...yeah, widow mines should trigger the black hole ability the mothership once had, I'd be down for that.


It's called asymmetric balance. It's not equivalent because it's not supposed to be equivalent, it's supposed to be asymmetric. And balanced. Last I checked, Protoss winrates are more or less fine against Terran. Widow mines and all.

Now if you were talking about a Zerg unit, say banelings, you might have more of a point. And whoa, what a surprise, this patch nerfed banelings. Funny how that works.


You completely missed the point. Sure TvP is fine from a winrate standpoint, does not mean disruptors or widowmines are fun to play against. In the OP I answered too, SC-Shield compared widow mines to oracles and that only makes sense if you remember the old oracles that 2 shot workers. They got nerfed...widow mines got buffed and they are one of the 3 most hated units.
"I'll take [LET IT SNOW] for 800" - Sean Connery (Darrell Hammond)
Andi_Goldberger
Profile Joined July 2018
Germany1608 Posts
June 12 2020 12:52 GMT
#85
I dont understand why they buffed the mine when it is used in every matchup except TvT. It was in a fine spot, now its stronger for no reason
~~~~~
Ciaus_Dronu
Profile Joined June 2017
South Africa1848 Posts
June 12 2020 12:55 GMT
#86
On June 12 2020 21:52 Andi_Goldberger wrote:
I dont understand why they buffed the mine when it is used in every matchup except TvT. It was in a fine spot, now its stronger for no reason


Don't forget that at some point in its history they also made it faster to produce, so one reactored factory can pump out more of the things than when mines were originally added in HotS, and it's not like they were bad then either.

Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
June 12 2020 13:45 GMT
#87
On June 12 2020 21:39 naughtDE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2020 19:51 pvsnp wrote:
On June 12 2020 18:52 naughtDE wrote:
On June 12 2020 18:08 SC-Shield wrote:
On June 12 2020 16:37 M2 wrote:
Similar to how mines are in Broodwar, widow mines should not trigger on workers and thats it


Widow mines have been like this for so long, there's no chance this will be done soon. One argument is protoss has an oracle and terran's mines are an equivalent in terms of harassment.

Edit: Why did Blizzard disable changing race while searching for a 3vs3 game? It makes no sense..


It is not equivalent.
1. Widowmines deal extra dmg to shields. Probes aswell as drones have less hp then scvs on top of that, so the only race that doesn't have to suffer instant losses because of a second of not reacting correctly is terran -.- (they do so against disruptors and boy oh boy do they like it)
2. The second point is less about Worker harrass, but the unit in general. It does somewhat compare to an oracle stasis ward, as in it is invisible, you set it and you forgot about it. The only redeeming argument for the disruptor is, at least protoss had to look at the screen while winning the game in 1 shot, terran does not with widowmines. Also, while walking into a stasis ward at the wrong time can cost you the game, and a stasis ward on a mineral line can set you economically far behind, it feels less shitty when you at least get your units back after 21 seconds...yeah, widow mines should trigger the black hole ability the mothership once had, I'd be down for that.


It's called asymmetric balance. It's not equivalent because it's not supposed to be equivalent, it's supposed to be asymmetric. And balanced. Last I checked, Protoss winrates are more or less fine against Terran. Widow mines and all.

Now if you were talking about a Zerg unit, say banelings, you might have more of a point. And whoa, what a surprise, this patch nerfed banelings. Funny how that works.


You completely missed the point. Sure TvP is fine from a winrate standpoint, does not mean disruptors or widowmines are fun to play against. In the OP I answered too, SC-Shield compared widow mines to oracles and that only makes sense if you remember the old oracles that 2 shot workers. They got nerfed...widow mines got buffed and they are one of the 3 most hated units.


Pre buff

On May 19 2020 01:17 Cyro wrote:
Poll: How do you feel about Widow Mines?

(Vote): Love
(Vote): Neutral
(Vote): Hate


"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2749 Posts
June 12 2020 14:00 GMT
#88
I actually vastly prefer wm over siege tank which is kind of a super boring unit and don't provide as much as micro interaction in zvt.
Andi_Goldberger
Profile Joined July 2018
Germany1608 Posts
June 12 2020 14:11 GMT
#89
On June 12 2020 23:00 stilt wrote:
I actually vastly prefer wm over siege tank which is kind of a super boring unit and don't provide as much as micro interaction in zvt.

I do aswell. They were already meta tho. It was a fine unit. This change just makes the game more frustrating for no reason
~~~~~
Beelzebub1
Profile Joined May 2015
1004 Posts
June 12 2020 16:09 GMT
#90
We'll have to see how it goes, but these are a slew of pretty serious nerfs to Zerg and I'm sure the win rates will show us how the state of the game really is in the coming weeks.

Shroud is very strong, and not requiring an upgrade is insane, but the Queen nerf combined with the bane nerf might make Zerg feel very brittle against air play and holding bio pushes. Not that Zerg wasn't probably overtuned, but this might under tune them.
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
June 12 2020 16:24 GMT
#91
I must applaud Blizzard for the mine change. It was a small change but it improved the matchup. First time in years TvP feels fair to play.
Decendos
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany1338 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-06-12 16:41:42
June 12 2020 16:35 GMT
#92
On June 13 2020 01:09 Beelzebub1 wrote:
We'll have to see how it goes, but these are a slew of pretty serious nerfs to Zerg and I'm sure the win rates will show us how the state of the game really is in the coming weeks.

Shroud is very strong, and not requiring an upgrade is insane, but the Queen nerf combined with the bane nerf might make Zerg feel very brittle against air play and holding bio pushes. Not that Zerg wasn't probably overtuned, but this might under tune them.


Shroud is very strong? You do need it only in late game maybe and there an upgrade isn't the problem.

Infestors just suck they need IT back to do something in midgame for example Vs tanks or to harass. Just don't make it hit air or less dmg to air.
Andi_Goldberger
Profile Joined July 2018
Germany1608 Posts
June 12 2020 18:09 GMT
#93
On June 13 2020 01:35 Decendos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 13 2020 01:09 Beelzebub1 wrote:
We'll have to see how it goes, but these are a slew of pretty serious nerfs to Zerg and I'm sure the win rates will show us how the state of the game really is in the coming weeks.

Shroud is very strong, and not requiring an upgrade is insane, but the Queen nerf combined with the bane nerf might make Zerg feel very brittle against air play and holding bio pushes. Not that Zerg wasn't probably overtuned, but this might under tune them.


Shroud is very strong? You do need it only in late game maybe and there an upgrade isn't the problem.

Infestors just suck they need IT back to do something in midgame for example Vs tanks or to harass. Just don't make it hit air or less dmg to air.

please dont give IT back, they have been either super OP or super useless at all times. Try another ability maybe, just not IT.
~~~~~
Decendos
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany1338 Posts
June 12 2020 18:12 GMT
#94
On June 13 2020 03:09 Andi_Goldberger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 13 2020 01:35 Decendos wrote:
On June 13 2020 01:09 Beelzebub1 wrote:
We'll have to see how it goes, but these are a slew of pretty serious nerfs to Zerg and I'm sure the win rates will show us how the state of the game really is in the coming weeks.

Shroud is very strong, and not requiring an upgrade is insane, but the Queen nerf combined with the bane nerf might make Zerg feel very brittle against air play and holding bio pushes. Not that Zerg wasn't probably overtuned, but this might under tune them.


Shroud is very strong? You do need it only in late game maybe and there an upgrade isn't the problem.

Infestors just suck they need IT back to do something in midgame for example Vs tanks or to harass. Just don't make it hit air or less dmg to air.

please dont give IT back, they have been either super OP or super useless at all times. Try another ability maybe, just not IT.


Yeah another useful ability for midgame would also be great. For a lair tech unit they are just 100 percent useless. Could also be a hive tech unit and no difference lol. Give them something to be a choice in midgame. For example shroud reduces all singe target damage not only air damage.
Freeborn
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany421 Posts
June 12 2020 19:16 GMT
#95
I have been saying for ages that fungal should be empowered as a universal ability disable. That would make it quite useful...
Freeborn
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany421 Posts
June 12 2020 19:17 GMT
#96
But first give protoss gateway units more oomph.
sparklyresidue
Profile Joined August 2011
United States5523 Posts
June 12 2020 22:05 GMT
#97
widow mine build time decreased 1.5s plz
Like Tinkerbelle, I leave behind a sparkly residue.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
June 12 2020 22:58 GMT
#98
On June 13 2020 04:17 Freeborn wrote:
But first give protoss gateway units more oomph.


Sure, just remove warpgate.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Snakestyle11
Profile Joined December 2018
191 Posts
June 12 2020 23:45 GMT
#99
On June 13 2020 07:58 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 13 2020 04:17 Freeborn wrote:
But first give protoss gateway units more oomph.


Sure, just remove warpgate.



I always thought warpgate should be redesigned.

Warpgate should be a hero building ( can only have one of at a time). Starts with 4 charges, with an upgrade to make it 6 charges.

Gateways should be the main production. If protoss can have insane defender advantage with shield batteries, then they should not negate defender advantage of their opponent with warp prism and infinite instant warp ins. You could def tweak gateway units if needed, and maybe allow gateways to be able to make immortals. Then remove recall or add counter play like back when it was mothership core (u could actually stop them from recalling by killing mama core or abducting it).

Maybe then ZvP would be more like ZvT bio when players trade armies many times without it being game over for one side.

Really wish they would try to make ZvP have less seemingly 1 sided stomps where one army just rolls for the win. Right now armies avoid each other for a long time trying to kill workers, then theres one battle and its GG.
Freeborn
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany421 Posts
June 13 2020 11:14 GMT
#100
All you need to do is to put warpgate a bit later in the tech tree and then make sure that warp ins are slow and units take extra damage when warping in.
That should balance it .

Then remove forcefield or replace with a slowing ability and now we can have good gateway units.
Let's have stalkers with proper damage and adepts with maybe survivability (armor) or manual shade triggering. Or maybe even give all of them +1 armor.
Stalkers should be fragile but do damage, could have less starting range but +1 range in the lategame... So many options...

People also like to forget how ridiculously imba mmm still is:
- Anti air & ground
- fast airborne with boost
- insane dps with stim
- self sustaining healing
- can be comboed with ghosts for anti caster and instant 30%+ health of protoss

Tactically it's superior to any other composition in the game.
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