I really hate what they have done to Vikings. I refuse to play standard TvT games because of it literally 3 rax marine SCV every single game
I feel like the Viking is the absolute worst unit in the Terran army but youre forced to make so many of them in every single match up. They should at worst be even with corruptors 1on1 considering how borken mass corruptors actually are. Their air attack needed a buff, not hte ground transformation. Literally every TvT is either a doom drop or mass viking / liberator push (which can't be stopped if youre ever behind a single viking).
I think if air upgrades are even you need 8/9 vikings to 1 shot a brood lord. Which means you need 18-20 vikings just to engage a broodlord army supported by infestor / hydra / corruptor.
Same goes for colossus, you need about 4 vikings per colossus (depending on the stalker count) to even consider engaging in the fight. Building vikings isnt a problem but the immediate tech switches ruin you even if you win the fight and have a good number of vikings remaining.
I dunno if this bothers anyone else but it really pisses me off because thors are somehow useless vs air armies.
.. because thors are somehow useless vs air armies.
o.O On my level thors are really good against air, especially in the high impact mode (11 range). Since the brood lord range nerf (range really is 10 now, broodling leash range 12->9) and the thor damage/cooldown changes (~+20% dps) they seem to do very well against capital ships/slow massive air units.
.. because thors are somehow useless vs air armies.
o.O On my level thors are really good against air, especially in the high impact mode (11 range). Since the brood lord range nerf (range really is 10 now, broodling leash range 12->9) and the thor damage/cooldown changes (~+20% dps) they seem to do very well against capital ships/slow massive air units.
Ya and what level is that?
Because even at mid Diamond rank, zergs are blinding cloud / abducting and neural parasiting thors with ease because theres a million broodlings out.
Thors Vs Battle Cruisers. Theres this thing called Yamato Cannon.
[QUOTE]On June 24 2020 08:22 RandomPlayer416 wrote: [QUOTE]On June 24 2020 06:14 bela.mervado wrote: [QUOTE].. because thors are somehow useless vs air armies.[/QUOTE]
o.O On my level thors are really good against air, especially in the high impact mode (11 range). Since the brood lord range nerf (range really is 10 now, broodling leash range 12->9) and the thor damage/cooldown changes (~+20% dps) they seem to do very well against capital ships/slow massive air units.[/QUOTE]
Ya and what level is that?
Because even at mid Diamond rank, zergs are blinding cloud / abducting and neural parasiting thors with ease because theres a million broodlings out. Even properly micro'd mutalisks completely WRECK Thors.
Thors Vs Battle Cruisers. Theres this thing called Yamato Cannon.
.. because thors are somehow useless vs air armies.
o.O On my level thors are really good against air, especially in the high impact mode (11 range). Since the brood lord range nerf (range really is 10 now, broodling leash range 12->9) and the thor damage/cooldown changes (~+20% dps) they seem to do very well against capital ships/slow massive air units.
Ya and what level is that?
Because even at mid Diamond rank, zergs are blinding cloud / abducting and neural parasiting thors with ease because theres a million broodlings out. Even properly micro'd mutalisks completely WRECK Thors.
Thors Vs Battle Cruisers. Theres this thing called Yamato Cannon.
Thors vs Carriers: Everything loses to Carriers.
my zerg is 4.xk and I'm proud of it although I mainly play 2v2s, and I do respect Thors.
about Thors vs BCs .. hmm I'd refer you to GSL 2020 S1 semifinals Cure vs Inno game 2
what a game Inno seems to be having some fun using Thor Raven against BC Tank in the late game. <spoilers: Inno wins this one>
against Carriers you have to shift right click on the big ships, otherwise Thors will shoot the small ships.
if you struggle in a matchup just post a replay in the terran help me thread, there still is an amazing community here and the high master-gm people will help you with a few useful tips.
my zerg is 4.xk and I'm proud of it although I mainly play 2v2s, and I do respect Thors.
about Thors vs BCs .. hmm I'd refer you to GSL 2020 S1 semifinals Cure vs Inno game 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1gIP-Je7x4 what a game Inno seems to be having some fun using Thor Raven against BC Tank in the late game. <spoilers: Inno wins this one>
against Carriers you have to shift right click on the big ships, otherwise Thors will shoot the small ships.
if you struggle in a matchup just post a replay in the terran help me thread, there still is an amazing community here and the high master-gm people will help you with a few useful tips.
Sorry but youre comparing a top player in the world to a 4k mmr player and expect the results to be the same? It doesn't work. Nothing you see in the GSL is the same as a game between 4k mmr players.
The last thing in the world I am going to do is seek or accept advice from someone literally exactly the same skill as me and doesnt play Terran.
On June 24 2020 04:58 RandomPlayer416 wrote: I really hate what they have done to Vikings. I refuse to play standard TvT games because of it literally 3 rax marine SCV every single game
I feel like the Viking is the absolute worst unit in the Terran army but youre forced to make so many of them in every single match up. They should at worst be even with corruptors 1on1 considering how borken mass corruptors actually are. Their air attack needed a buff, not hte ground transformation. Literally every TvT is either a doom drop or mass viking / liberator push (which can't be stopped if youre ever behind a single viking).
I think if air upgrades are even you need 8/9 vikings to 1 shot a brood lord. Which means you need 18-20 vikings just to engage a broodlord army supported by infestor / hydra / corruptor.
Same goes for colossus, you need about 4 vikings per colossus (depending on the stalker count) to even consider engaging in the fight. Building vikings isnt a problem but the immediate tech switches ruin you even if you win the fight and have a good number of vikings remaining.
I dunno if this bothers anyone else but it really pisses me off because thors are somehow useless vs air armies.
I play random in masters 2 and I think that thor AA is super scary, Thors dominate air units since a player going thors in large numbers is usually meching they often have at least +2 upgrade advantage over air units, their range in high impact makes it so nothing can effectively kite them any more and they do an insane amount of burst damage and sustained anti air dps.
Yes vipers can counter thors but vipers are also not a cheep unit and their is counter micro from the terran side if thors+vikings focus fire the vipers as they try to cast spells they can be killed before the spells go off. In addition adding ghosts to your army, or focus firing tanks can prevent neural parasite from wrecking your thors.
In tvp I think thors are a bit worse, not because they dont wreck air units (they do with proper micro) but because their is not a good answer for mech vs high counts of disruptors paired with thors. Thors are really really slow so they have to rely on zoning units to deny disruptors, even if you split your thors you will always take hits. since toss has alot of strong ways to counter both tanks and libs in the supper late game thier is a sort of psuedo timer on any ground based mech army. I think you have to secure enough economy and tempo you can safely switch to bcs, or you have to do a big viking switch to clear out tempests.
thier was a game between clem and showtime where the extreme strength of mass disruptor+temepst vs a thor heavy army was showcased
I will concede however that yes in tvp and tvz vikings kind of suck they are a unit you have to build, not a unit you want to build, corruptors although stronger also used to suffer from the same lack of utility after a successful fight until they were given the current version of caustic spray. vikings are actually just quite strong in tvt, as you mentioned. But they are not a bad unit you have to make they are straight up a strong unit that you have the option to mass. Air control is so strong due to spotting, and latter the strength of ranged libs vs tanks. You can chose to not mass them however, even gsl finalists like cure prioritize medivacs over vikings and this style can be quite good at times since it gives your marines more sustain and your army more mobility. I think vikings are still the stronger tvt option but its dam hard to use a viking tank marine army compared to a medivac heavy one. if you get caught out of position vikings are useless compared to medivacs, they are only good if your tanks are sieged up in the right locations.
additionally landed vikings vs mech armys are actually pretty strong, the + to mech is a significant amount vs other terrans it just realy does not do much for them in tvp or tvz, in tvp zelots tank to many shots for it to matter and shred vikings.
in tvz I think the main thing is that unlike tvt zerg has 2 spell casters that both have fantastic aoe spells that hit air, this just makes vikings not scale well at all, you only make them if you are forced to as a response to broolords or vipers blinding cloud.
Also with regard to people who hate tvt, have you played the other races mirrors? terran has by far the best mirror. It feels like an actual match up vs the other races rather than some sort of cheese or droning minigame like pvp and zvz do. TVT is by far andaway a more complex and interesting mu than pvp has ever been, zvz can be interesting but for most of us noobs its just a ling bane into roach fest that rarely if ever goes into the more interesting late game stage.
On June 24 2020 04:58 RandomPlayer416 wrote: I really hate what they have done to Vikings. I refuse to play standard TvT games because of it literally 3 rax marine SCV every single game
I feel like the Viking is the absolute worst unit in the Terran army but youre forced to make so many of them in every single match up. They should at worst be even with corruptors 1on1 considering how borken mass corruptors actually are. Their air attack needed a buff, not hte ground transformation. Literally every TvT is either a doom drop or mass viking / liberator push (which can't be stopped if youre ever behind a single viking).
I think if air upgrades are even you need 8/9 vikings to 1 shot a brood lord. Which means you need 18-20 vikings just to engage a broodlord army supported by infestor / hydra / corruptor.
Same goes for colossus, you need about 4 vikings per colossus (depending on the stalker count) to even consider engaging in the fight. Building vikings isnt a problem but the immediate tech switches ruin you even if you win the fight and have a good number of vikings remaining.
I dunno if this bothers anyone else but it really pisses me off because thors are somehow useless vs air armies.
I play random in masters 2 and I think that thor AA is super scary, Thors dominate air units since a player going thors in large numbers is usually meching they often have at least +2 upgrade advantage over air units, their range in high impact makes it so nothing can effectively kite them any more and they do an insane amount of burst damage and sustained anti air dps.
Yes vipers can counter thors but vipers are also not a cheep unit and their is counter micro from the terran side if thors+vikings focus fire the vipers as they try to cast spells they can be killed before the spells go off. In addition adding ghosts to your army, or focus firing tanks can prevent neural parasite from wrecking your thors.
In tvp I think thors are a bit worse, not because they dont wreck air units (they do with proper micro) but because their is not a good answer for mech vs high counts of disruptors paired with thors. Thors are really really slow so they have to rely on zoning units to deny disruptors, even if you split your thors you will always take hits. since toss has alot of strong ways to counter both tanks and libs in the supper late game thier is a sort of psuedo timer on any ground based mech army. I think you have to secure enough economy and tempo you can safely switch to bcs, or you have to do a big viking switch to clear out tempests.
thier was a game between clem and showtime where the extreme strength of mass disruptor+temepst vs a thor heavy army was showcased
I will concede however that yes in tvp and tvz vikings kind of suck they are a unit you have to build, not a unit you want to build, corruptors although stronger also used to suffer from the same lack of utility after a successful fight until they were given the current version of caustic spray. vikings are actually just quite strong in tvt, as you mentioned. But they are not a bad unit you have to make they are straight up a strong unit that you have the option to mass. Air control is so strong due to spotting, and latter the strength of ranged libs vs tanks. You can chose to not mass them however, even gsl finalists like cure prioritize medivacs over vikings and this style can be quite good at times since it gives your marines more sustain and your army more mobility. I think vikings are still the stronger tvt option but its dam hard to use a viking tank marine army compared to a medivac heavy one. if you get caught out of position vikings are useless compared to medivacs, they are only good if your tanks are sieged up in the right locations.
additionally landed vikings vs mech armys are actually pretty strong, the + to mech is a significant amount vs other terrans it just realy does not do much for them in tvp or tvz, in tvp zelots tank to many shots for it to matter and shred vikings.
in tvz I think the main thing is that unlike tvt zerg has 2 spell casters that both have fantastic aoe spells that hit air, this just makes vikings not scale well at all, you only make them if you are forced to as a response to broolords or vipers blinding cloud.
Also with regard to people who hate tvt, have you played the other races mirrors? terran has by far the best mirror. It feels like an actual match up vs the other races rather than some sort of cheese or droning minigame like pvp and zvz do. TVT is by far andaway a more complex and interesting mu than pvp has ever been, zvz can be interesting but for most of us noobs its just a ling bane into roach fest that rarely if ever goes into the more interesting late game stage.
I'm not gonna argue about thors anymore, my main issue was the viking which you addressed. My point is TvT has basically flushed out mech as a viable strat simply with the ground attack buff. This means that you're countered by BIO and Mass air and once you go Mech its almost impossible to transition out unless you're playing a 30minute game and upgrading your bio the whole time while building 10 raxes and 8 starports just to cover your ass. I'm diamond with all races despite only playing Terran (rolls eyes) and ya I will literally insta quit a ZvZ and Cannon rush PvP no matter what so TvT is probably the most playable but easily the most annoying.
I will say one more thing about thors. You mentioned that a large number of thors is hard to deal with and I agree with you there. However it takes much longer to accumulate a large number of thors to the point where your opponent fears them. They also usually have 5/6 bases and can easily afford to build counter units at will.
Anyways I just think they should of buffed viking Air to Air vs BIO, rather than buff ground to ground vs mech. Thats all I'm really saying.
TLDR; Vikings too effective vs Terran, not effective enough vs Zerg, balanced vs protoss.
I dont mean to double post but its been almost a month.
Just wondering how people are feeling about TvP? All my early aggression builds have been put to rest from battery overcharge. I really cannot win a game vs protoss that lasts longer than 5minutes because its almost impossible to 2rax snipe the natural now.
What builds do protoss players hate to face? I'm willing to try anything because no I just leave games vs protoss.
On July 20 2020 23:29 RandomPlayer416 wrote: I dont mean to double post but its been almost a month.
Just wondering how people are feeling about TvP? All my early aggression builds have been put to rest from battery overcharge. I really cannot win a game vs protoss that lasts longer than 5minutes because its almost impossible to 2rax snipe the natural now.
What builds do protoss players hate to face? I'm willing to try anything because no I just leave games vs protoss.
The worst thing that can happen to a Protoss is to have their army sitting at the natural expansion or third base, and then being hit by siege tanks out of nowhere and seeing liberation zones form at the edge of the base.
If you can get siege tanks, ideally also liberators, and a ball of bio to just outside a Protoss base and siege up just out of his vision before he notices, then use your bio to drag him into siege tank and liberator firing zone, you’ll win almost every time. If he catches you on the map before you siege, you’ll probably lose.
On July 20 2020 23:29 RandomPlayer416 wrote: I dont mean to double post but its been almost a month.
Just wondering how people are feeling about TvP? All my early aggression builds have been put to rest from battery overcharge. I really cannot win a game vs protoss that lasts longer than 5minutes because its almost impossible to 2rax snipe the natural now.
What builds do protoss players hate to face? I'm willing to try anything because no I just leave games vs protoss.
The worst thing that can happen to a Protoss is to have their army sitting at the natural expansion or third base, and then being hit by siege tanks out of nowhere and seeing liberation zones form at the edge of the base.
If you can get siege tanks, ideally also liberators, and a ball of bio to just outside a Protoss base and siege up just out of his vision before he notices, then use your bio to drag him into siege tank and liberator firing zone, you’ll win almost every time. If he catches you on the map before you siege, you’ll probably lose.
unfortunately there is no strategy you can use that can put you ahead or put protoss in a bad spot. The matchup is literally impossible to win as a Terran player UNLESS the protoss makes a huge mistake and loses before the 5minute mark.
TY proved this by doing the exact same build every single game vs parting because there is no other way to win. You cannot early pressure effectively because of shield batteries and how OP they are. Its just not possible.
EPT
although I mainly play 2v2s,
