On April 16 2020 10:12 Bagration wrote: In a wacky way, 2010 was the best era - it was the time of maximum creativity, maximum aggression, and maximum cheddar.
The beta was something else as well. A young game full of possibilities and surprises around every corner. That was a great time to play.
On April 16 2020 14:22 ssg wrote: If a gold league player today went back to gsl 1 he would likely win.
He'd come very far at least. It'd be fun to compare these games with gold league replays from today side by side and see if you could figure out which one was the progame from the plays alone.
Unless something changed since I played SC2 on ladder, gold players have nowhere near APM of pros from any era since BoxeR won his first OSL and would collapsed immediately after their initial build order wouldn't net them a win.
On April 16 2020 10:12 Bagration wrote: In a wacky way, 2010 was the best era - it was the time of maximum creativity, maximum aggression, and maximum cheddar.
The beta was something else as well. A young game full of possibilities and surprises around every corner. That was a great time to play.
On April 16 2020 14:22 ssg wrote: If a gold league player today went back to gsl 1 he would likely win.
He'd come very far at least. It'd be fun to compare these games with gold league replays from today side by side and see if you could figure out which one was the progame from the plays alone.
Unless something changed since I played SC2 on ladder, gold players have nowhere near APM of pros from any era since BoxeR won his first OSL and would collapsed immediately after their initial build order wouldn't net them a win.
I honestly reckon you'd need to be more like mid-masters
On April 27 2020 18:09 Psychonian wrote: Just happened to watch this one. An absolute fiesta of a game between TheBestfOu and SlayerS_Min in the ro16 of the 2011 Super Tournament. They both should have won this game at least twice.
On June 07 2020 22:06 FuzzyJAM wrote: I'm trying to remember the first ever baneling mine game.
It was on a vertical map whose name I don't recall. I think it was Kyrix or Zenio that did it. I wanna say it was against MVP before he had won a GSL but could be wrong. It was such a fucking cool thing to see marines just disappear and instantly forced Terrans to play differently.
Anyway, the hype was just wild. That was a cool time to watch SC2 - yes, the games were objectively terrible by contemporary standards, but there was such comedy and every GSL brought multiple new crazy things to the fore with a meta that changed by the minute.
I believe that was Moon on Jungle Basin. Can't find the game though.
There was a super funky game, PvZ. I think Leenock was playing. Cannon rush and Nydus and then they end up switching bases? Can someone find that (or is it posted here already?).
On April 27 2020 18:09 Psychonian wrote: Just happened to watch this one. An absolute fiesta of a game between TheBestfOu and SlayerS_Min in the ro16 of the 2011 Super Tournament. They both should have won this game at least twice. https://youtu.be/yU92Xq3Vjb4
i dont think it ranks very high up there but when thorzain went thors against me in TSL, i had no idea how to adjust in the middle of the series. no practice against that, didn't see it coming at all. you'd think immortals would be the counter but thors had that ability that could stun immortals... lol. i saw some MC vs thorzain games were already linked so those are probably demonstrating the same thing but with MC playing at a much higher level than me (and I assume he knew what was coming)
On October 25 2020 06:09 NonY wrote: i dont think it ranks very high up there but when thorzain went thors against me in TSL, i had no idea how to adjust in the middle of the series. no practice against that, didn't see it coming at all. you'd think immortals would be the counter but thors had that ability that could stun immortals... lol. i saw some MC vs thorzain games were already linked so those are probably demonstrating the same thing but with MC playing at a much higher level than me (and I assume he knew what was coming)
Around 2 months before thorzain used that build, I remember offracing as protoss and I faced this absolute horrendous terran player who sat on 2 bases for 20 minutes just massing thors and I lost to it...
Then I went back to terran and started doing the build and crushed almost all protosses. TvP went from my worst matchup to best.
However, then I met up against one protoss who went stalkers + Void Rays who beat me convincingly. Yes you can test this in the unit-tester. Stalkers + Void Rays beats Thors as Thors will automatically target the Void Rays and they deal little damage to armored air.
So unless you can manually target fire the individual stalkers you will lose the game. And that isn't really realistic since stalkers can have blink and you are likely to see the thors walking without shotting.
But because all the intuitive counters didn't work, Blizzard nerfed Thors without realizing that mass Thors was actually quite beatable. While I don't mind it since Thors are lame and boring; Compare that to the attitude in later half of 2012 where it was more like "yeh I am sure terran players can just figure something out themselves to beat zergs. Let's wait and see".
On October 25 2020 06:09 NonY wrote: i dont think it ranks very high up there but when thorzain went thors against me in TSL, i had no idea how to adjust in the middle of the series. no practice against that, didn't see it coming at all. you'd think immortals would be the counter but thors had that ability that could stun immortals... lol. i saw some MC vs thorzain games were already linked so those are probably demonstrating the same thing but with MC playing at a much higher level than me (and I assume he knew what was coming)
Around 2 months before thorzain used that build, I remember offracing as protoss and I faced this absolute horrendous terran player who sat on 2 bases for 20 minutes just massing thors and I lost to it...
Then I went back to terran and started doing the build and crushed almost all protosses. TvP went from my worst matchup to best.
However, then I met up against one protoss who went stalkers + Void Rays who beat me convincingly. Yes you can test this in the unit-tester. Stalkers + Void Rays beats Thors as Thors will automatically target the Void Rays and they deal little damage to armored air.
So unless you can manually target fire the individual stalkers you will lose the game. And that isn't really realistic since stalkers can have blink and you are likely to see the thors walking without shotting.
But because all the intuitive counters didn't work, Blizzard nerfed Thors without realizing that mass Thors was actually quite beatable. While I don't mind it since Thors are lame and boring; Compare that to the attitude in later half of 2012 where it was more like "yeh I am sure terran players can just figure something out themselves to beat zergs. Let's wait and see".
Was that before the 1-1-1? I'm unsure why people would even try and mass thors when they had access to this push that had stupid winrates and wasn't nerfed in, over eight months I want to say?
On October 25 2020 06:09 NonY wrote: i dont think it ranks very high up there but when thorzain went thors against me in TSL, i had no idea how to adjust in the middle of the series. no practice against that, didn't see it coming at all. you'd think immortals would be the counter but thors had that ability that could stun immortals... lol. i saw some MC vs thorzain games were already linked so those are probably demonstrating the same thing but with MC playing at a much higher level than me (and I assume he knew what was coming)
Around 2 months before thorzain used that build, I remember offracing as protoss and I faced this absolute horrendous terran player who sat on 2 bases for 20 minutes just massing thors and I lost to it...
Then I went back to terran and started doing the build and crushed almost all protosses. TvP went from my worst matchup to best.
However, then I met up against one protoss who went stalkers + Void Rays who beat me convincingly. Yes you can test this in the unit-tester. Stalkers + Void Rays beats Thors as Thors will automatically target the Void Rays and they deal little damage to armored air.
So unless you can manually target fire the individual stalkers you will lose the game. And that isn't really realistic since stalkers can have blink and you are likely to see the thors walking without shotting.
But because all the intuitive counters didn't work, Blizzard nerfed Thors without realizing that mass Thors was actually quite beatable. While I don't mind it since Thors are lame and boring; Compare that to the attitude in later half of 2012 where it was more like "yeh I am sure terran players can just figure something out themselves to beat zergs. Let's wait and see".
Was that before the 1-1-1? I'm unsure why people would even try and mass thors when they had access to this push that had stupid winrates and wasn't nerfed in, over eight months I want to say?
IIRC I started off-racing as toss around january 2011. So i probably started doing the mass thor build late january/early february. I think 1-1-1 was before that? Although it remained a used build a while after that.
Terrans were just ridiclous slow at figuring out the meta. Took around a year before people stopped doing cheese all-in openings against zergs and realised reactor-hellion is the most reliable way to play - and in fact insanely OP early game against 3-range queens. (I haven't gone through all the comments in this thread but I am sure there is plenty of evidence of bad the terran builds were in 2010. Has anyone posted Marinekings nuke-drop opening? )
I think intuitively everyone just thought that mass Thors would be beaten by Immortals. But what kinda happened was that if the terran commits only to Thors and nothing else effectively and protoss only has some immortals mixed with other gateway units, terran crushes this easily. For immortals to work it would need to produced from like 3-4 robotics with constant chrono and zero gateway units.
Blink-stalker/void rays was by far the best counter-option but because of how quickly thors were nerfed after the mass thor build was discovered I doubt anyone at blizzard realized that this option existed beforehand. And again to clarify I am happy it got nerfed, I don't think the counters should be that unintuitive.
Just to add a little extra to the "terrans being slow at discovering the meta". The only terran who wasn't was MVP. If you go back to late 2010-first half of 2011 and watch MVP's playstyle and builds compared to other terrans, he was so much more modern and well-thought out that every other terran it's unbelieveable.
MVP also invented the idea of splitting bio against banelings. MarineKing may have popularized it, but MVP was the first to showcase the idea in an official game and I remember my mind just being blown. Before that the general consensus was that Zerg will win if the game is "normal" because Zerg has the higher skillcap while terran was the more cheesy race with gimmicks. But marine-splitting massiveley increased the skillcap of terran.
EPT
