• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:02
CEST 22:02
KST 05:02
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL63Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?13FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster16Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? PiG Sty Festival #5: Playoffs Preview + Groups Recap
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL SC uni coach streams logging into betting site Practice Partners (Official)
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China The Casual Games of the Week Thread CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 543 users

4.11.3 Patch (Adept revert) + Community Update - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
124 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
franzji
Profile Joined September 2013
United States581 Posts
December 18 2019 18:28 GMT
#61
On December 19 2019 03:26 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2019 02:56 youngjiddle wrote:
On December 19 2019 02:40 Nakajin wrote:
On December 19 2019 02:26 youngjiddle wrote:
This bug needs to be fixed already.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/sc2/t/attempting-to-reconnect-defeat/6356

1/8th of my ladder games I get DC'd when I have no internet interruptions.

Literally drives me crazy.


Oh it drive you crazy does it...?

I see Blizz contingency plan to replace Fluidrone is already on track.


explain?


Fluidrone is a tl user who just got banned.

He was like a less creapy YokoKano aka Royda if his trolling wasn't intentional, aka where all the shitpost goes to balance Pandemona.

Basicly a guy posting non ending confusing shitpost


I don't shitpost that much and barely post here.

Just wish blizzard would fix this bug...

I don't get that guy.
MrFreeman
Profile Joined January 2015
207 Posts
December 18 2019 18:30 GMT
#62
Microbial shroud should be castable while burrowed. If you have to unburrow all your infestors just to cast this spell, you are actually hurting yourself.
It would also be nice if casting fungal while burrowed unburrowed that infestor and then cast it, to help us slower players.
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19229 Posts
December 18 2019 18:33 GMT
#63
On December 19 2019 03:28 youngjiddle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2019 03:26 Nakajin wrote:
On December 19 2019 02:56 youngjiddle wrote:
On December 19 2019 02:40 Nakajin wrote:
On December 19 2019 02:26 youngjiddle wrote:
This bug needs to be fixed already.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/sc2/t/attempting-to-reconnect-defeat/6356

1/8th of my ladder games I get DC'd when I have no internet interruptions.

Literally drives me crazy.


Oh it drive you crazy does it...?

I see Blizz contingency plan to replace Fluidrone is already on track.


explain?


Fluidrone is a tl user who just got banned.

He was like a less creapy YokoKano aka Royda if his trolling wasn't intentional, aka where all the shitpost goes to balance Pandemona.

Basicly a guy posting non ending confusing shitpost


I don't shitpost that much and barely post here.

Just wish blizzard would fix this bug...

I don't get that guy.

I got your back here. Complaining about an actual bug has nothing to do with those balance whiners.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
December 18 2019 18:37 GMT
#64
On December 19 2019 03:28 youngjiddle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2019 03:26 Nakajin wrote:
On December 19 2019 02:56 youngjiddle wrote:
On December 19 2019 02:40 Nakajin wrote:
On December 19 2019 02:26 youngjiddle wrote:
This bug needs to be fixed already.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/sc2/t/attempting-to-reconnect-defeat/6356

1/8th of my ladder games I get DC'd when I have no internet interruptions.

Literally drives me crazy.


Oh it drive you crazy does it...?

I see Blizz contingency plan to replace Fluidrone is already on track.


explain?


Fluidrone is a tl user who just got banned.

He was like a less creapy YokoKano aka Royda if his trolling wasn't intentional, aka where all the shitpost goes to balance Pandemona.

Basicly a guy posting non ending confusing shitpost


I don't shitpost that much and barely post here.

Just wish blizzard would fix this bug...

I don't get that guy.


Nah I just was making a (very bad) joke about the bug "driving you crazy"
With that said y'a they should fix the bug
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19229 Posts
December 18 2019 18:53 GMT
#65
On December 19 2019 03:37 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2019 03:28 youngjiddle wrote:
On December 19 2019 03:26 Nakajin wrote:
On December 19 2019 02:56 youngjiddle wrote:
On December 19 2019 02:40 Nakajin wrote:
On December 19 2019 02:26 youngjiddle wrote:
This bug needs to be fixed already.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/sc2/t/attempting-to-reconnect-defeat/6356

1/8th of my ladder games I get DC'd when I have no internet interruptions.

Literally drives me crazy.


Oh it drive you crazy does it...?

I see Blizz contingency plan to replace Fluidrone is already on track.


explain?


Fluidrone is a tl user who just got banned.

He was like a less creapy YokoKano aka Royda if his trolling wasn't intentional, aka where all the shitpost goes to balance Pandemona.

Basicly a guy posting non ending confusing shitpost


I don't shitpost that much and barely post here.

Just wish blizzard would fix this bug...

I don't get that guy.


Nah I just was making a (very bad) joke about the bug "driving you crazy"
With that said y'a they should fix the bug

I imagine it's very cold in Canada right now. No one can fault you for bad jokes in the winter.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4400 Posts
December 18 2019 20:22 GMT
#66
While these changes don't really effect much I think they do show that the balance team considers Zerg differently than the other races. They will clearly not let anything Zerg be useless for any stretch of time. T/P frequently go through metas where several units/spells are completely non-viable. With Z for the last year and a half every unit/spell has had at least some use. This isn't necessarily a bad thing I just wish they would treat T/P the same way.
GoSuNamhciR
Profile Joined May 2010
124 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-18 21:09:56
December 18 2019 21:09 GMT
#67
On December 19 2019 05:22 JJH777 wrote:
While these changes don't really effect much I think they do show that the balance team considers Zerg differently than the other races. They will clearly not let anything Zerg be useless for any stretch of time. T/P frequently go through metas where several units/spells are completely non-viable. With Z for the last year and a half every unit/spell has had at least some use. This isn't necessarily a bad thing I just wish they would treat T/P the same way.


It is likely due to the oppressive nature of Terran and Protoss when they are dominant. When they are dominant the other race doesn't get to play the game the way they want to as they basically make you react and beat you down quickly when they were historically dominant. Zerg usually goes late game in most matchups so you get to play your game but it doesn't really matter cause they steamroll you at 20 minutes. I think its a perception thing, when zerg is OP you don't notice it as easily other than results as the games seem closer because they tend to go longer.
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28474 Posts
December 18 2019 21:17 GMT
#68
On December 18 2019 05:11 Elentos wrote:
Adept revert is surprisingly fast, but not unexpected and definitely called for. I'm sure the Shroud buff will please Penev.

S H R O U D

that's what I'm talking about
I Protoss winner, could it be?
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2749 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-18 21:45:29
December 18 2019 21:43 GMT
#69
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2019 19:23 Snakestyle11 wrote:
On December 18 2019 19:14 WaesumNinja wrote:
On December 18 2019 19:07 sneakyfox wrote:
they are actually buffing zerg casters here, which seems crazy considering their current level of power.


Well, they should have a high level of power. Zerg doesn't have anti-caster spells like emp and feedback.


Also, Zerg late game casters need to be this strong because of how bad ultralisks and broodlords are and how they have big obvious weakness compared to highest tech units of other races.

Battlecruisers, Thors, Carriers, tempests are all much better all around than broodlords and ultralisks. I feel like to nerf vipers you need to have a new "capital ship" type late game zerg unit that can attack both ground and air.


That's what most Zergs think, that you don't have any options if your casters get nerfed. Problem with Zerg is you have so many options which are why they are so strong.

Viper Blinding Cloud and Abduct on a single caster is OUTRAGEOUS and on top of that it can fly.

Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.

Zerg casters should be nerfed hard and be forced to have to make specific army comps to counter Terran and Protoss, right now you can combine almost anything with these casters and you have a working counter that can respond to any enemy composition.

Zerg casters are way too versatile.

And there is a reason Zergs always end up with the bigger banks in a game it's because not only do they get to expand more but their armies are extremely cost efficient. Zergs power lies in fast remax,quick tech switches, cheap and many fast units.

Zerg in SC was built and balanced around what I mentioned above but at the moment Zerg does not need to use those strengths because Blizzard gave them armies so strong they outrade armies that can cost waaaay more then the Zerg army. Zerg is ment to use its advantages aggressively but now all they do is eat up the map with bases and creep and have armies that are extremely hard to engage.

That is another reason why Banelings are so strong now because we are supposed to accept Zerg can generate these insane banks so they can afford to make 100 friggin banelings that cost only 50 supply. It's madness and I seriously don't understand why there is not more outrage against this.





A common misconception is that zerg late game army is cheaper in this game, BL/Infest/viper/corrupters is a very gaz intensive composition, the same goes for hydra/lurker/viper.
Btw, capital letters don't make a point righter.
batatm
Profile Joined June 2014
Israel116 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-18 22:01:06
December 18 2019 21:59 GMT
#70
On December 19 2019 05:22 JJH777 wrote:
While these changes don't really effect much I think they do show that the balance team considers Zerg differently than the other races. They will clearly not let anything Zerg be useless for any stretch of time. T/P frequently go through metas where several units/spells are completely non-viable. With Z for the last year and a half every unit/spell has had at least some use. This isn't necessarily a bad thing I just wish they would treat T/P the same way.

i don't agree, blizzard has been striving for quite some time to make every single unit and upgrade useful in some manner.
there are several examples in the last patch alone:
Rapid Re-Ignition was buffed AND made more accessible.
Thor has been tinkered with since forever in an attempt to for it to be used more (and finally succeeded it seems).
Time Warp was deemed lackluster so it was buffed.
Void Rays are finally being used again, with the addition of the Flux Vanes upgrade.
Boggyb
Profile Joined January 2017
2855 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-18 22:35:33
December 18 2019 22:35 GMT
#71
On December 18 2019 22:02 91matt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2019 21:39 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
On December 18 2019 20:56 WaesumNinja wrote:
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.


This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.



No, I can't describe any other unit in the game the way I can so easily point out how ridiculously strong Infestors and Vipers are.

Any person in a good frame of mind would be able to understand that in a game based on economy having the ability to grab and kill units with almost no risk involved is broken. Not only that its low risk high reward but some of the units they grab cost twice or more their own cost in both resources and supply.


Should zerg have any good units or should they just get rolled over by mass air or mass tank ?

Considering Zerg is built around instant remaxes and tech switches, no, Zerg should not have any good units. They should have decent units.
DubiousC2
Profile Joined June 2016
129 Posts
December 18 2019 23:10 GMT
#72
Read patch notes, get disappointed again, leave game again for x months. 2019 cycle.
Manner MULE /dance
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
December 19 2019 06:38 GMT
#73
When will Blizzard help my race and nerf the others?
batatm
Profile Joined June 2014
Israel116 Posts
December 19 2019 09:35 GMT
#74
On December 19 2019 07:35 Boggyb wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2019 22:02 91matt wrote:
On December 18 2019 21:39 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
On December 18 2019 20:56 WaesumNinja wrote:
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.


This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.



No, I can't describe any other unit in the game the way I can so easily point out how ridiculously strong Infestors and Vipers are.

Any person in a good frame of mind would be able to understand that in a game based on economy having the ability to grab and kill units with almost no risk involved is broken. Not only that its low risk high reward but some of the units they grab cost twice or more their own cost in both resources and supply.


Should zerg have any good units or should they just get rolled over by mass air or mass tank ?

Considering Zerg is built around instant remaxes and tech switches, no, Zerg should not have any good units. They should have decent units.

You're arguing semantics here, which will never give you a definitive edge in a discussion.
Snakestyle11
Profile Joined December 2018
191 Posts
December 19 2019 10:18 GMT
#75
On December 19 2019 07:35 Boggyb wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2019 22:02 91matt wrote:
On December 18 2019 21:39 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
On December 18 2019 20:56 WaesumNinja wrote:
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.


This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.



No, I can't describe any other unit in the game the way I can so easily point out how ridiculously strong Infestors and Vipers are.

Any person in a good frame of mind would be able to understand that in a game based on economy having the ability to grab and kill units with almost no risk involved is broken. Not only that its low risk high reward but some of the units they grab cost twice or more their own cost in both resources and supply.


Should zerg have any good units or should they just get rolled over by mass air or mass tank ?

Considering Zerg is built around instant remaxes and tech switches, no, Zerg should not have any good units. They should have decent units.


That has not been true ever since lotv game out...
Haukinger
Profile Joined June 2012
Germany131 Posts
December 19 2019 11:48 GMT
#76
They could make the cloud radius span the whole map and still noone would use it. If it would prevent damage-from-air completely, including stuff like storm or anti-armour-missile, then perhaps, it might be useful.
BigRedDog
Profile Joined May 2012
461 Posts
December 19 2019 12:20 GMT
#77
Is it just me or are players screaming louder for nerf Zerg bc we have Serral and Dark and Reynor winning tourneys?

I don't recall people screaming to nerf Terran when Maru win GSLs continuously. The only thing I recall they nerf was reaper bc Byun was abusing the heck out of it.

Big Red Dog!
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55510 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-19 12:36:47
December 19 2019 12:26 GMT
#78
On December 19 2019 21:20 BigRedDog wrote:
Is it just me or are players screaming louder for nerf Zerg bc we have Serral and Dark and Reynor winning tourneys?

It's more because they win every single tournament than just because they win tournaments at all. People are a bit tired of seeing the same people playing each other in every final. And if their opponent isn't one of them you know they aren't losing either.

Zerg was very clearly the strongest race going into and at Blizzcon. Whether they still are remains to be determined, but ultimately I think it says something about the last few years that people are immediately worried about Blizzard buffing any Zerg ability this quickly after a patch, even if it's solely because it has seen 0 competitive usage and they want to figure out if it's a good idea at all.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Nars_
Profile Joined February 2016
31 Posts
December 19 2019 12:43 GMT
#79
Ahh the classic Zerg buff with 44% TvZ and 46% PvZ at the top of the pack.
sneakyfox
Profile Joined January 2017
8216 Posts
December 19 2019 12:48 GMT
#80
On December 19 2019 21:20 BigRedDog wrote:
Is it just me or are players screaming louder for nerf Zerg bc we have Serral and Dark and Reynor winning tourneys?

I don't recall people screaming to nerf Terran when Maru win GSLs continuously. The only thing I recall they nerf was reaper bc Byun was abusing the heck out of it.



Actually, there were calls for nerfs immediately after Maru won a GSL and WESG by abusing the overpowered Raven, and Blizzard nerfed it soon thereafter, which was great.

The reason people react so strongly to a zerg buff--besides what Elentos writes--is that blizzard left the zerg lategame untouched for so many months even though everyone could see how strong it was. Imagine if the Raven hadn't been nerfed, there would have been more and more calls for nerfs to that too.
"I saw what sneakyfox wrote on TL.net and it made me furious" - PartinG
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL: ProLeague
18:00
Grand Finals - bo9
Dewalt vs Bonyth
ZZZero.O530
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
BRAT_OK 162
ProTech49
StarCraft: Brood War
Mini 720
ZZZero.O 530
EffOrt 500
Soma 162
Aegong 39
Terrorterran 21
LuMiX 7
League of Legends
Grubby4904
Dendi1882
Counter-Strike
fl0m1978
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King155
Chillindude57
Westballz37
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor744
Liquid`Hasu601
Other Games
FrodaN3176
B2W.Neo1101
Mlord627
mouzStarbuck253
Pyrionflax166
elazer88
Sick53
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick45477
EGCTV1700
StarCraft 2
angryscii 44
Other Games
BasetradeTV27
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 46
• Adnapsc2 35
• maralekos28
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• 3DClanTV 48
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler181
League of Legends
• masondota2660
Other Games
• imaqtpie2340
• Shiphtur595
• WagamamaTV353
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
14h 58m
Replay Cast
1d 3h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 13h
WardiTV European League
1d 19h
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
4 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
FEL
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 2v2 Season 3
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.