Resonating Glaives upgrade effects reverted. The Resonating Glaives upgrade will now increase the attack speed of Adepts by 45%.
Infestor
Microbial Shroud radius increased from 3 to 3.5. Microbial Shroud energy cost reduced from 100 to 75. Removed the Hive research requirement from Microbial Shroud.
It’s been a few weeks since the 2019 post-BlizzCon changes went live, and before the year comes to a close, we’d like to take some time to review the changes we’ve made and the resulting games we’ve seen so far. Some notable tournaments we’ve been paying attention to include Nation Wars, WESG qualifiers, and of course, HomeStory Cup XX.
One of the hot topics of 2019 was the Nydus Worm, and based on the games we’ve seen so far, we feel pretty good about its level of use and its effectiveness when used. Nydus and Nydus/Swarm Host usage has generally decreased in ZvP, which we believe is caused by both changes to the Nydus Worm and the map pool. And when Nydus Worms are used in the matchup, we feel a lot better about the new level of difficulty by which Protoss has to fight them. Meanwhile, while we’re seeing less direct Nydus aggression in ZvT, we do see increased Nydus/Swarm Host usage, which we attribute to a spike in the popularity of mech play.
Another popular topic of discussion in 2019 was the strength of Infestor/Brood Lord and the resulting passive endgames it caused. With the changes made to both these units in the post-BlizCon patch, we believe the late-games that we see are a lot more dynamic, and small decisions in the late-game feel more impactful to the end result of the game.
In general, when it comes to balance, especially late-game balance, we believe it’ll take quite a bit more time before we can come to any definitive conclusions. Not only are sample sizes small, the styles players are using are more divergent from each other than usual, reflective of a meta after a big patch. For now, our focus is on the end-game dynamics of each matchup with special focus on units that we changed recently including the Liberator, Thor, Lurker, and Infestor. With that said, we’d like to make two design-motivated adjustments.
Adept
Resonating Glaives upgrade effects reverted. The Resonating Glaives upgrade will now increase the attack speed of Adepts by 45%.
We tried a new version of the Resonated Glaives upgrade with the goals of moving it away from the front-line pusher and emphasizing the coolness of the Shade Projection ability. However, it ran into some oddities in practice. For example, in the heat of battle, it took away from the interesting mind-game of whether the Shade would be canceled, because the Adept user is so highly incentivized to finish their Shade. It also created awkward scenarios where Adept users are encouraged to Shade onto themselves in the middle of a fight. For these reasons, we’d like to revert this change to the Adept.
Infestor
Microbial Shroud radius increased from 3 to 3.5
Microbial Shroud energy cost reduced from 100 to 75.
Removed the Hive research requirement from Microbial Shroud.
As a general rule, we try to tune new skills and abilities to be on the strong side when we initially introduce them to promote experimentation. With Microbial Shroud, we probably didn’t go far enough, leading to its low use in tournament games. The changes introduced here are geared towards increasing accessibility and moderating the effectiveness of enemy area-of-effect abilities against Shrouds.
Both changes should go live with an upcoming update on Tuesday, December 17, PST. Let us know what you think on any community site, thanks for your feedback, and happy holidays!
I would love to see zerg get the ability to permanently mind control a worker, like in BW. It was always very entertaining when it happened, so I don't know why the dev team decided to leave that out of SC2. Please incorporate to SC2. It probably won't get used much at all in tournaments, but crowds would literally stain their pants if they ever see Serral control zerg armies with terran units sprinkled in.
On December 18 2019 12:38 tigon_ridge wrote: I would love to see zerg get the ability to permanently mind control a worker, like in BW. It was always very entertaining when it happened, so I don't know why the dev team decided to leave that out of SC2. Please incorporate to SC2. It probably won't get used much at all in tournaments, but crowds would literally stain their pants if they ever see Serral control zerg armies with terran units sprinkled in.
You can neural a worker and build a town hall tho, dosen't really work vs Terran since a cc take longer to build that the neural so you need to chain neural but vs P you can do it
I'm glad they're reverting the adept change. I'm a bit surprised they did it so quickly, but it was blatantly obvious that adepts were significantly worse with the glaives change. They were useless defensively, and only basically only useful for coin flip all-ins where you hoped the opponent would be caught off guard by them. At least now they will have some of their utility in early-midgame PvZ back.
On December 18 2019 12:25 Nakajin wrote: Jesus I can't beleive they are buffing shroud, I have literaly never seen a single zerg lose a game once they start using it.
Triggered.
On December 18 2019 11:44 Snakestyle11 wrote: Thats actually a Zerg nerf and might trick zerg into wasting energy on shroud.
Damnit man lmao
Whats logic behind the adept revert though, cause it was useless if they canceled shade? I thought that was the point. A canceled shade shouldnt be just as strong as a finished shade, theres' gotta be SOME drawback.
Oh wait, no there doesnt. This is Protoss we're talking here.
On December 18 2019 12:38 tigon_ridge wrote: I would love to see zerg get the ability to permanently mind control a worker, like in BW. It was always very entertaining when it happened, so I don't know why the dev team decided to leave that out of SC2. Please incorporate to SC2. It probably won't get used much at all in tournaments, but crowds would literally stain their pants if they ever see Serral control zerg armies with terran units sprinkled in.
You can neural a worker and build a town hall tho, dosen't really work vs Terran since a cc take longer to build that the neural so you need to chain neural but vs P you can do it
In BW you get separate supply which is pretty big. Though even then you only saw it in pro games once in a blue moon.
On December 18 2019 12:25 Nakajin wrote: Jesus I can't beleive they are buffing shroud, I have literaly never seen a single zerg lose a game once they start using it.
Can't tell if you are serious or not ^^ I have never seen shroud used in a pro game, ever
On December 18 2019 17:51 RandomPlayer wrote:To be honest, something should be nerfed in order to match the buff.
...why? That spell is hardly used yet and I'm not sure why it's locked behind an upgrade to begin with. Comparing shroud with infested terran it's a straight up nerf.
On December 18 2019 12:25 Nakajin wrote: Jesus I can't beleive they are buffing shroud, I have literaly never seen a single zerg lose a game once they start using it.
Can't tell if you are serious or not ^^ I have never seen shroud used in a pro game, ever
Well I never said I had seen a zerg win a game after using it
It's fine to Buff The Shroud to see how it works in top games, but still... they are actually buffing zerg casters here, which seems crazy considering their current level of power.
That said, there can still be many changes and they are not saying this is the final update.
For now, our focus is on the end-game dynamics of each matchup with special focus on units that we changed recently including the Liberator, Thor, Lurker, and Infestor.
I really think they should add the Viper to that list.
On December 18 2019 19:07 sneakyfox wrote: they are actually buffing zerg casters here, which seems crazy considering their current level of power.
Well, they should have a high level of power. Zerg doesn't have anti-caster spells like emp and feedback.
Also, Zerg late game casters need to be this strong because of how bad ultralisks and broodlords are and how they have big obvious weakness compared to highest tech units of other races.
Battlecruisers, Thors, Carriers, tempests are all much better all around than broodlords and ultralisks. I feel like to nerf vipers you need to have a new "capital ship" type late game zerg unit that can attack both ground and air.
We don't want cool we want a functional practical non-complicated game with more emphasis on macro and big armies with not MOBA level strength single units that can win a game in a split second. You already have a genre that has more emphasis on strong single unit's its called Warcraft, this is Starcraft and you are not respecting its legacy.
I believe if you really wanna improve late game, you gotta make it harder to max out, or remain maxed out. Raising supply, removing minerals from late game expansions, are some ways to do it. Else it's too much about who has the better units pr. supply.
Thors are still lacking in some areas but they're too powerful atm vs massive air units.
I think the shroud ability doesn't have to be so absolutely niche. A flavour thing you can do is to make it so when Marines and only Marines die while under the Shroud they become Infested Terrans and I'm not talking the Infested Terran of recent memory, but basically a shitty melee Zombie unit, have it be timeless so ppl would try accumulate the biggest zombie legion as possible
Finally I would've liked to see Adepts with a 30 shields upgrade, then the upg would've absolutely been worth it. I wanted to try it to force Ghosts from Terrans and then going into Disruptors, completely neglecting going Storm. Sounds powerful tho.
On December 18 2019 19:07 sneakyfox wrote: they are actually buffing zerg casters here, which seems crazy considering their current level of power.
Well, they should have a high level of power. Zerg doesn't have anti-caster spells like emp and feedback.
Also, Zerg late game casters need to be this strong because of how bad ultralisks and broodlords are and how they have big obvious weakness compared to highest tech units of other races.
Battlecruisers, Thors, Carriers, tempests are all much better all around than broodlords and ultralisks. I feel like to nerf vipers you need to have a new "capital ship" type late game zerg unit that can attack both ground and air.
That's what most Zergs think, that you don't have any options if your casters get nerfed. Problem with Zerg is you have so many options which are why they are so strong.
Viper Blinding Cloud and Abduct on a single caster is OUTRAGEOUS and on top of that it can fly.
Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
Zerg casters should be nerfed hard and be forced to have to make specific army comps to counter Terran and Protoss, right now you can combine almost anything with these casters and you have a working counter that can respond to any enemy composition.
Zerg casters are way too versatile.
And there is a reason Zergs always end up with the bigger banks in a game it's because not only do they get to expand more but their armies are extremely cost efficient. Zergs power lies in fast remax,quick tech switches, cheap and many fast units.
Zerg in SC was built and balanced around what I mentioned above but at the moment Zerg does not need to use those strengths because Blizzard gave them armies so strong they outrade armies that can cost waaaay more then the Zerg army. Zerg is ment to use its advantages aggressively but now all they do is eat up the map with bases and creep and have armies that are extremely hard to engage.
That is another reason why Banelings are so strong now because we are supposed to accept Zerg can generate these insane banks so they can afford to make 100 friggin banelings that cost only 50 supply. It's madness and I seriously don't understand why there is not more outrage against this.
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.
No, I can't describe any other unit in the game the way I can so easily point out how ridiculously strong Infestors and Vipers are.
Any person in a good frame of mind would be able to understand that in a game based on economy having the ability to grab and kill units with almost no risk involved is broken. Not only that its low risk high reward but some of the units they grab cost twice or more their own cost in both resources and supply.
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.
Scv are 1 supply unit that can move THROUGH UNITS and they cost only 50 minerals and on TOP OF THAT they can REPAIR !
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.
No, I can't describe any other unit in the game the way I can so easily point out how ridiculously strong Infestors and Vipers are.
Any person in a good frame of mind would be able to understand that in a game based on economy having the ability to grab and kill units with almost no risk involved is broken. Not only that its low risk high reward but some of the units they grab cost twice or more their own cost in both resources and supply.
Should zerg have any good units or should they just get rolled over by mass air or mass tank ?
On December 18 2019 21:24 GrandSmurf wrote: do point out the flaws of an infestor ?
Ghosts can wipe out an entire mineral line by itself. An infestor can not. Templars can instantly destroy spellcasters at range or at the very least remove all their energy. Infestors can not. Ghosts can also remove spellcaster energy at range but also as an aoe effect. Infestors can not. Once out of energy, Templars can combine and become a very powerful offensive unit. Infestors can not. High Templar can wipe out clusters of units using Storm, even clearing mineral lines with ease. Infestors can not. Ghosts can instantly wipe out tier 3 units at long range from stealth using snipe. Infestors can not. Ghosts at least possess some kind of attack after they're out of energy. Infestors don't, and just run around in the way of your other units. Infestors have the biggest hitbox, making them very clumsy. Infestors are 'armored', so they take bonus damage from more sources than the other spellcasters do. Counting as biological is also not much of an advantage against ghosts...
These are just from the top of my mind. There's probably many more, but no, infestors are not this God unit so many make it out to be.
On December 18 2019 21:47 FFW_Rude wrote: Scv are 1 supply unit that can move THROUGH UNITS and they cost only 50 minerals and on TOP OF THAT they can REPAIR !
Did i do this right ?
No, you didn't do it right and you're well aware of that. Of course you'd pick to describe SCV instead of something like the carrier.
I would like to see a massive change for Brood Lords. Its the Zerg unit that needs the longest to tech to and its the most expensive Zerg Unit in the Game.
Compared to the Battlecruiser or the Carrier, Brood Lords are ridiculously weak. With no AA to defend itself, and its slow movement speed, its practically useless without support.
With their slow movement speed they are easily outmaneuvered and with the latest balance changes, they get totally shit on by thors. Compare that to a Carrier or a BC whose get faster on the field, move faster, hit harder, hit air and can be recalled or teleported if out of position.
You could say that a BC costs 150 minerals and 50 gas more than a Brood Lord (and a Carrier 50 minerals more), but you have to consider the amount of corruptors you have to make to support them. You can have a Battle Cruiser, teleporting 5 Minutes into the game, into your opponents main and do huge amount of damage, if the opponent doesnt react properly. Imagine the damage potential of a single Brood Lord.
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.
No, I can't describe any other unit in the game the way I can so easily point out how ridiculously strong Infestors and Vipers are.
Any person in a good frame of mind would be able to understand that in a game based on economy having the ability to grab and kill units with almost no risk involved is broken. Not only that its low risk high reward but some of the units they grab cost twice or more their own cost in both resources and supply.
Should zerg have any good units or should they just get rolled over by mass air or mass tank ?
^ Where were you two in the past 9 years of this game's lifetime?
Infestor and BL is the BANE of this game, they always has been. How can you say that they're not the strongest..? Everyone knows that this composition has always been nearly unbeatable and blatantly op since the game came out. Back in WoL literally the only way of beating it was archon toilet. And more recently in the past 2 years we haven't seen A SINGLE pro match where somebody lost with mass spores + infestors (with the bugged infested terrans) and BLs.
On December 18 2019 12:25 Nakajin wrote: Jesus I can't beleive they are buffing shroud, I have literaly never seen a single zerg lose a game once they start using it.
Can't tell if you are serious or not ^^ I have never seen shroud used in a pro game, ever
On December 18 2019 21:24 GrandSmurf wrote: do point out the flaws of an infestor ?
Ghosts can wipe out an entire mineral line by itself. An infestor can not. Templars can instantly destroy spellcasters at range or at the very least remove all their energy. Infestors can not. Ghosts can also remove spellcaster energy at range but also as an aoe effect. Infestors can not. Once out of energy, Templars can combine and become a very powerful offensive unit. Infestors can not. High Templar can wipe out clusters of units using Storm, even clearing mineral lines with ease. Infestors can not. Ghosts can instantly wipe out tier 3 units at long range from stealth using snipe. Infestors can not. Ghosts at least possess some kind of attack after they're out of energy. Infestors don't, and just run around in the way of your other units. Infestors have the biggest hitbox, making them very clumsy. Infestors are 'armored', so they take bonus damage from more sources than the other spellcasters do. Counting as biological is also not much of an advantage against ghosts...
These are just from the top of my mind. There's probably many more, but no, infestors are not this God unit so many make it out to be.
On December 18 2019 21:47 FFW_Rude wrote: Scv are 1 supply unit that can move THROUGH UNITS and they cost only 50 minerals and on TOP OF THAT they can REPAIR !
Did i do this right ?
No, you didn't do it right and you're well aware of that. Of course you'd pick to describe SCV instead of something like the carrier.
Good job there mate, everything you just wrote is completely irrelevant because what is relevant is the late game army interactions where the Infestor is 100 times easier and better to use because you can use it from a defensive standpoint while Terran and Protoss risk their casters and almost 100% loses them everytime they use them making them 100 times less cost efficient then a Infestor. Nice try doh.
I'm really struggling to see any good use of Shroud
What would be a good scenario for Shroud where Neural or Fungal isn't better? I mean, it is used vs air. So I imagine some sort of hydra / infestor comp.
Also the whining is this thread is unreal. Get it together people
On December 18 2019 22:26 Harris1st wrote: What would be a good scenario for Shroud where Neural or Fungal isn't better? I mean, it is used vs air. So I imagine some sort of hydra / infestor comp.
What zerg units shoot up? Not counting bile, it's just hydralisk and queen. I don't even feel queens should shoot up to start with, so it feels sort of the wrong direction to buff this aspect.
Shroud is super niche because it needs to be researched, and only buffs two units as an "anti air" spell, in one location. Infested terran made more sense as it introduced another source of anti-air where zerg is already lacking. I don't see shroud being used unless it becomes unreasonably buffed, which isn't better.
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.
No, I can't describe any other unit in the game the way I can so easily point out how ridiculously strong Infestors and Vipers are.
Any person in a good frame of mind would be able to understand that in a game based on economy having the ability to grab and kill units with almost no risk involved is broken. Not only that its low risk high reward but some of the units they grab cost twice or more their own cost in both resources and supply.
A way to make these spells risked based would have been to remove the mana feature from Zerg casters and make it health based. That way an abduct has the trade off of costing the unit half(or some other value) of its health. The Viper can then regen its health by taking it from buildings instead of gaining mana back. This would nerf infestors too, because they would be easier to kill when casting neural. It would make sense to have them burrowed as an extra buffer to keep them alive after casting a spell that takes health from them.
Microbial Shroud is ridicolous. A spell that INSTANTLY reduces the Damage received BY ALL AIR UNITS in a HUGE AREA for a VERY LONG TIME for just 75 ENERGY!!!
How could they ever add this into the game without instantly realizing it would be completely broken???
On December 18 2019 23:38 Geo.Rion wrote: "With Microbial Shroud, we probably didn’t go far enough, leading to its low use in tournament games." It had seen use in tournaments???!?!?
Zero is a pretty low number (if considered a number ^^)
On December 18 2019 23:21 Charoisaur wrote: Microbial Shroud is ridicolous. A spell that INSTANTLY reduces the Damage received BY ALL AIR UNITS in a HUGE AREA for a VERY LONG TIME for just 75 ENERGY!!!
How could they ever add this into the game without instantly realizing it would be completely broken???
On December 18 2019 21:47 FFW_Rude wrote:
Scv are 1 supply unit that can move THROUGH UNITS and they cost only 50 minerals and on TOP OF THAT they can REPAIR !
Did i do this right ?
Love these! Can we make it a widely known meme please?
On December 18 2019 19:28 ejozl wrote: ... I think the shroud ability doesn't have to be so absolutely niche. A flavour thing you can do is to make it so when Marines and only Marines die while under the Shroud they become Infested Terrans and I'm not talking the Infested Terran of recent memory, but basically a shitty melee Zombie unit, have it be timeless so ppl would try accumulate the biggest zombie legion as possible
That is a brilliant idea to both broaden the spell's appeal and simultaneously retain a piece of the infested terran legacy. I particularly like the proposed details: (a) they should suck like an 80's-era Hollywood zombie; and (b) stick around until killed so there's the potential to really mass them up.
The drawback is it's a disincentive for Terran to make marines so in practice we might not see all that many zombie legions.
Well maybe it will become somewhat useful for things like ultralisk / hydra comps. Otherwise hydras will suck as hard as they do now vs air + mass of AoE like storm, colossus or disruptor.
I guess they could become somewhat useful vs T but since Tanks AoE will still be a thing and vipers will be more useful vs that i dont really see shroud being useful in TvZ.
So basically shroud will just make it so that PvZ and TvZ wont change but ZvZ will become more turtle with stronger lurkers and shroud vs air comps.
On December 18 2019 12:25 Nakajin wrote: Jesus I can't beleive they are buffing shroud, I have literaly never seen a single zerg lose a game once they start using it.
Can't tell if you are serious or not ^^ I have never seen shroud used in a pro game, ever
Well I never said I had seen a zerg win a game after using it
lollll you troll! but seriously though, this is an entire team vs one person's anecdotal experience. I'm sure they data they have access to is much more telling
On December 18 2019 22:16 WaesumNinja wrote: The bias of some people.
On December 18 2019 21:24 GrandSmurf wrote: do point out the flaws of an infestor ?
Ghosts can wipe out an entire mineral line by itself. An infestor can not. Templars can instantly destroy spellcasters at range or at the very least remove all their energy. Infestors can not. Ghosts can also remove spellcaster energy at range but also as an aoe effect. Infestors can not. Once out of energy, Templars can combine and become a very powerful offensive unit. Infestors can not. High Templar can wipe out clusters of units using Storm, even clearing mineral lines with ease. Infestors can not. Ghosts can instantly wipe out tier 3 units at long range from stealth using snipe. Infestors can not. Ghosts at least possess some kind of attack after they're out of energy. Infestors don't, and just run around in the way of your other units. Infestors have the biggest hitbox, making them very clumsy. Infestors are 'armored', so they take bonus damage from more sources than the other spellcasters do. Counting as biological is also not much of an advantage against ghosts...
These are just from the top of my mind. There's probably many more, but no, infestors are not this God unit so many make it out to be.
On December 18 2019 21:47 FFW_Rude wrote: Scv are 1 supply unit that can move THROUGH UNITS and they cost only 50 minerals and on TOP OF THAT they can REPAIR !
Did i do this right ?
No, you didn't do it right and you're well aware of that. Of course you'd pick to describe SCV instead of something like the carrier.
Good job there mate, everything you just wrote is completely irrelevant because what is relevant is the late game army interactions where the Infestor is 100 times easier and better to use because you can use it from a defensive standpoint while Terran and Protoss risk their casters and almost 100% loses them everytime they use them making them 100 times less cost efficient then a Infestor. Nice try doh.
i'm pretty sure any unit can be used offensively or defensively from any standpoint. you are both nitpicking, leave the infestor alone!!!!!
On December 18 2019 23:21 Charoisaur wrote: Microbial Shroud is ridicolous. A spell that INSTANTLY reduces the Damage received BY ALL AIR UNITS in a HUGE AREA for a VERY LONG TIME for just 75 ENERGY!!!
How could they ever add this into the game without instantly realizing it would be completely broken???
it's in the name of experimentation - application instead of theory crafting. read the damn post, MORE zerg buffs please!!
On December 18 2019 22:26 Harris1st wrote: I'm really struggling to see any good use of Shroud
What would be a good scenario for Shroud where Neural or Fungal isn't better? I mean, it is used vs air. So I imagine some sort of hydra / infestor comp.
Also the whining is this thread is unreal. Get it together people
Hummm when you want to protect your troup from void ray or banshee and have no anti-air I guess?
Oh no I have it, to reduce the amount of damage your spores takes for a tempest.
But on a serious note, does shroud affect colosus fire? Maybe that's the way?
On December 18 2019 23:38 Geo.Rion wrote: "With Microbial Shroud, we probably didn’t go far enough, leading to its low use in tournament games." It had seen use in tournaments???!?!?
Zero is a pretty low number (if considered a number ^^)
On December 18 2019 23:21 Charoisaur wrote: Microbial Shroud is ridicolous. A spell that INSTANTLY reduces the Damage received BY ALL AIR UNITS in a HUGE AREA for a VERY LONG TIME for just 75 ENERGY!!!
How could they ever add this into the game without instantly realizing it would be completely broken???
On December 18 2019 22:26 Harris1st wrote: What would be a good scenario for Shroud where Neural or Fungal isn't better? I mean, it is used vs air. So I imagine some sort of hydra / infestor comp.
What zerg units shoot up? Not counting bile, it's just hydralisk and queen. I don't even feel queens should shoot up to start with, so it feels sort of the wrong direction to buff this aspect.
Shroud is super niche because it needs to be researched, and only buffs two units as an "anti air" spell, in one location. Infested terran made more sense as it introduced another source of anti-air where zerg is already lacking. I don't see shroud being used unless it becomes unreasonably buffed, which isn't better.
Corruptors counter everything in the air. They need a solid nerf if you want other Zerg AA to be buffed.
I really hope they look at Terran Vikings/Libs for dealing damage to other air units at some point, terran AtA feels awful. Not a complaint that the race is weak, I think the opposite right now.
Also, can blizzard just remove the microbial shroud upgrade? The ability would be fine if it didn't have to be researched, it would be very niche but thats fine. Just look at the Ravens abilities that are only used in 1 mu.
Microbial shroud should be castable while burrowed. If you have to unburrow all your infestors just to cast this spell, you are actually hurting yourself. It would also be nice if casting fungal while burrowed unburrowed that infestor and then cast it, to help us slower players.
While these changes don't really effect much I think they do show that the balance team considers Zerg differently than the other races. They will clearly not let anything Zerg be useless for any stretch of time. T/P frequently go through metas where several units/spells are completely non-viable. With Z for the last year and a half every unit/spell has had at least some use. This isn't necessarily a bad thing I just wish they would treat T/P the same way.
On December 19 2019 05:22 JJH777 wrote: While these changes don't really effect much I think they do show that the balance team considers Zerg differently than the other races. They will clearly not let anything Zerg be useless for any stretch of time. T/P frequently go through metas where several units/spells are completely non-viable. With Z for the last year and a half every unit/spell has had at least some use. This isn't necessarily a bad thing I just wish they would treat T/P the same way.
It is likely due to the oppressive nature of Terran and Protoss when they are dominant. When they are dominant the other race doesn't get to play the game the way they want to as they basically make you react and beat you down quickly when they were historically dominant. Zerg usually goes late game in most matchups so you get to play your game but it doesn't really matter cause they steamroll you at 20 minutes. I think its a perception thing, when zerg is OP you don't notice it as easily other than results as the games seem closer because they tend to go longer.
On December 18 2019 05:11 Elentos wrote: Adept revert is surprisingly fast, but not unexpected and definitely called for. I'm sure the Shroud buff will please Penev.
On December 18 2019 19:07 sneakyfox wrote: they are actually buffing zerg casters here, which seems crazy considering their current level of power.
Well, they should have a high level of power. Zerg doesn't have anti-caster spells like emp and feedback.
Also, Zerg late game casters need to be this strong because of how bad ultralisks and broodlords are and how they have big obvious weakness compared to highest tech units of other races.
Battlecruisers, Thors, Carriers, tempests are all much better all around than broodlords and ultralisks. I feel like to nerf vipers you need to have a new "capital ship" type late game zerg unit that can attack both ground and air.
That's what most Zergs think, that you don't have any options if your casters get nerfed. Problem with Zerg is you have so many options which are why they are so strong.
Viper Blinding Cloud and Abduct on a single caster is OUTRAGEOUS and on top of that it can fly.
Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
Zerg casters should be nerfed hard and be forced to have to make specific army comps to counter Terran and Protoss, right now you can combine almost anything with these casters and you have a working counter that can respond to any enemy composition.
Zerg casters are way too versatile.
And there is a reason Zergs always end up with the bigger banks in a game it's because not only do they get to expand more but their armies are extremely cost efficient. Zergs power lies in fast remax,quick tech switches, cheap and many fast units.
Zerg in SC was built and balanced around what I mentioned above but at the moment Zerg does not need to use those strengths because Blizzard gave them armies so strong they outrade armies that can cost waaaay more then the Zerg army. Zerg is ment to use its advantages aggressively but now all they do is eat up the map with bases and creep and have armies that are extremely hard to engage.
That is another reason why Banelings are so strong now because we are supposed to accept Zerg can generate these insane banks so they can afford to make 100 friggin banelings that cost only 50 supply. It's madness and I seriously don't understand why there is not more outrage against this.
A common misconception is that zerg late game army is cheaper in this game, BL/Infest/viper/corrupters is a very gaz intensive composition, the same goes for hydra/lurker/viper. Btw, capital letters don't make a point righter.
On December 19 2019 05:22 JJH777 wrote: While these changes don't really effect much I think they do show that the balance team considers Zerg differently than the other races. They will clearly not let anything Zerg be useless for any stretch of time. T/P frequently go through metas where several units/spells are completely non-viable. With Z for the last year and a half every unit/spell has had at least some use. This isn't necessarily a bad thing I just wish they would treat T/P the same way.
i don't agree, blizzard has been striving for quite some time to make every single unit and upgrade useful in some manner. there are several examples in the last patch alone: Rapid Re-Ignition was buffed AND made more accessible. Thor has been tinkered with since forever in an attempt to for it to be used more (and finally succeeded it seems). Time Warp was deemed lackluster so it was buffed. Void Rays are finally being used again, with the addition of the Flux Vanes upgrade.
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.
No, I can't describe any other unit in the game the way I can so easily point out how ridiculously strong Infestors and Vipers are.
Any person in a good frame of mind would be able to understand that in a game based on economy having the ability to grab and kill units with almost no risk involved is broken. Not only that its low risk high reward but some of the units they grab cost twice or more their own cost in both resources and supply.
Should zerg have any good units or should they just get rolled over by mass air or mass tank ?
Considering Zerg is built around instant remaxes and tech switches, no, Zerg should not have any good units. They should have decent units.
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.
No, I can't describe any other unit in the game the way I can so easily point out how ridiculously strong Infestors and Vipers are.
Any person in a good frame of mind would be able to understand that in a game based on economy having the ability to grab and kill units with almost no risk involved is broken. Not only that its low risk high reward but some of the units they grab cost twice or more their own cost in both resources and supply.
Should zerg have any good units or should they just get rolled over by mass air or mass tank ?
Considering Zerg is built around instant remaxes and tech switches, no, Zerg should not have any good units. They should have decent units.
You're arguing semantics here, which will never give you a definitive edge in a discussion.
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.
No, I can't describe any other unit in the game the way I can so easily point out how ridiculously strong Infestors and Vipers are.
Any person in a good frame of mind would be able to understand that in a game based on economy having the ability to grab and kill units with almost no risk involved is broken. Not only that its low risk high reward but some of the units they grab cost twice or more their own cost in both resources and supply.
Should zerg have any good units or should they just get rolled over by mass air or mass tank ?
Considering Zerg is built around instant remaxes and tech switches, no, Zerg should not have any good units. They should have decent units.
That has not been true ever since lotv game out...
They could make the cloud radius span the whole map and still noone would use it. If it would prevent damage-from-air completely, including stuff like storm or anti-armour-missile, then perhaps, it might be useful.
Is it just me or are players screaming louder for nerf Zerg bc we have Serral and Dark and Reynor winning tourneys?
I don't recall people screaming to nerf Terran when Maru win GSLs continuously. The only thing I recall they nerf was reaper bc Byun was abusing the heck out of it.
On December 19 2019 21:20 BigRedDog wrote: Is it just me or are players screaming louder for nerf Zerg bc we have Serral and Dark and Reynor winning tourneys?
It's more because they win every single tournament than just because they win tournaments at all. People are a bit tired of seeing the same people playing each other in every final. And if their opponent isn't one of them you know they aren't losing either.
Zerg was very clearly the strongest race going into and at Blizzcon. Whether they still are remains to be determined, but ultimately I think it says something about the last few years that people are immediately worried about Blizzard buffing any Zerg ability this quickly after a patch, even if it's solely because it has seen 0 competitive usage and they want to figure out if it's a good idea at all.
On December 19 2019 21:20 BigRedDog wrote: Is it just me or are players screaming louder for nerf Zerg bc we have Serral and Dark and Reynor winning tourneys?
I don't recall people screaming to nerf Terran when Maru win GSLs continuously. The only thing I recall they nerf was reaper bc Byun was abusing the heck out of it.
Actually, there were calls for nerfs immediately after Maru won a GSL and WESG by abusing the overpowered Raven, and Blizzard nerfed it soon thereafter, which was great.
The reason people react so strongly to a zerg buff--besides what Elentos writes--is that blizzard left the zerg lategame untouched for so many months even though everyone could see how strong it was. Imagine if the Raven hadn't been nerfed, there would have been more and more calls for nerfs to that too.
On December 19 2019 20:48 Haukinger wrote: They could make the cloud radius span the whole map and still noone would use it. If it would prevent damage-from-air completely, including stuff like storm or anti-armour-missile, then perhaps, it might be useful.
On December 19 2019 02:10 Nakajin wrote: But on a serious note, does shroud affect colosus fire? Maybe that's the way?
This would make it useful, and probably even a bit OP
If you listened to Zerg players you would think they have 0 good units.
Adept change being reverted is good. As far as shroud I think just removing the hive requirement is enough but a little apprehensive about the radius being increased. Think this gives zerg another good option vs airtoss but we will see how it plays out.
On December 19 2019 21:43 Nars_ wrote: Ahh the classic Zerg buff with 44% TvZ and 46% PvZ at the top of the pack.
Ahh the classic whine about a patch while completely ignoring it's context. No one uses microbial shrowd, and honestly i don't see it changing even with the latest buffs. The very idea behind it is flawed, a spell to protect the limited zerg ground to air units (=hydra and queen), which negates half the damage and only from aerial attacks. Rather conditional, don't you think?
I like how most of you think the zerg change is because they wanna *buff zerg*.
Its one of the change noone asked for that they came up themselves with in the last patch, a new spell designed by them that noone uses.
They just reverted another random change they made in the adept, they want to try to at least save face by proving this spell idea was good. I dont think it has much use outside niche hydra vs carriers mid game stuff.
Honestly, without meaning to lack respect for individual, im not a fan of most of these changes and design ideas they came up with..The battle cruiser teleport, then shoot while moving.. We even had burrow fungal for a while. There was the random stalker change they quickly reverted, the adept change thats also reverted... The super OP nydus...
They also had no idea about broodlord leashe range which led to many annoying thor and broodlords range changes.
I think the changes keep focusing on the wrong aspects of the game..
Players should be encouraged to mass up and trade low and mid tier units all game long, by fighting army units with army units, similar to old school bio ZvT, the best matchup of all starcraft history imo, even broodwar. They even discourage that kind of play by making mech the best TvZ style, with Battlecruisers. Leading to deathball defense play.
Starcraft2 currently is all about Unit versus worker interaction. Can you stop opponent units from killing too many workers before they die or run away? Why cant army units want to fight other army units?
Has the game really been impoving because of patches in the last 3 years? I dont think so...more and more things get broken and make for very uninteresting games at the ladder level. Most games are decided before the 5minutes mark nowadays to then end in only one battle.
If Microbial Shroud is buffed enough, that it becomes good and is not used as much mostly because Fungal Growth, Neural Parasite, Abduct, Blinding Cloud or Parasitic Bomb are just better in most cases, then they can start looking to ways to nerf the other options that are used. This is something that many would probably want to see.
On December 20 2019 00:21 dbRic1203 wrote: Kung fu Cup 2: finally a balanced tournament with the strongest Players on Top, wich are obviously all terrans
well tbh the top tier zerg players (dark, rouge, soO) didn't participate.
On December 18 2019 12:25 Nakajin wrote: Jesus I can't beleive they are buffing shroud, I have literaly never seen a single zerg lose a game once they start using it.
they have managed to fuck up mule fix, and instead of trying different approach just reverted it 'nuff said about balance team lol.
On December 18 2019 12:25 Nakajin wrote: Jesus I can't beleive they are buffing shroud, I have literaly never seen a single zerg lose a game once they start using it.
Can't tell if you are serious or not ^^ I have never seen shroud used in a pro game, ever
It doesn't matter. The shroud is a replacement for the Infestors against POTENTIAL Heavy Air. The reason you might not see it in a pro game is maybe that you don't see heavy air that much in general... or something else is stronger at that point, like a ground flood, etc. IMO it doesn't say anything about the potential of this spell.
For instance just its existance in the zerg arsenal can prevent the enemy from not doing a certain strategy... Just like a good wall prevents the enemy from zerg run byes all the time - you will simply usually not see it alot. You can think yourself about a lot of unit strength's that prevent certain plays or have proven to counter certain things very well... And since those counter plays exist... end the sentence yourself.
Back to the heavy air perspective: I have recently seen a Zerg guide from a GM late game vs Protoss Heavy AIr (pre patch). It involved Mass Infestors with Spore Crawlers (and Broodlords). (again GM level). He used Infested Marines once something could get fungaled. This is extreme late game scenario against a special protoss play - but this protoss play you actually don't see much - I think... That's why you also don't see the counter much - I think...
I personally tested the shroud myself, when an enemy was playing carriers. Having Hydras or Queens bathing in the shroud made them recieve almost no damage, and Interceptors melted. So how do some people think this buff was unnecessary? Keep in mind it got 3x buffed: T3->T2, radius 3->3.5, energy 100->75... Only addressing T3->T2: - You use this spell (as a high specialization...) to counter heavy air, heavy air is Tier3. Hence Shroud kinda belongs to Tier3 aswell (to counter Tier3 masses), putting it to T2 is unnecessary and cheap vs the cost investment of the enemy... (heavy air tech). By the way Liberator's with Range is not that high tech, but also T3... - You can't tell me that for instance laying possibly 2 shrouds with a 2 supply unit in addition to your attack vs liberator defense isn't efficient... please. - Hence I agree with the first post that buffing this spell to being available in T2 is a really big buff and we will see it being too good - I can't say that of course, I am only saying I watched some guides about rare late game scenarios and I did some games myself, and also I know from experience that it takes time to learn to apply a new mechanic appropriately. so I am understanding the feedback the other people wrote.
On December 19 2019 22:35 batatm wrote:
a spell to protect the limited zerg ground to air units (=hydra and queen), which negates half the damage and only from aerial attacks. Rather conditional, don't you think?
See above, conditionality doesn't remove it's Potential in that condition... So buffing it for that condition in the first place doesn't make sense in some people's eyes as it doesn't increase the condition's propability, but puts the Rock-Paper-Scissor-Mechanic even higher: A much Sharper Scissors = A much buffed Shroud.
On December 20 2019 04:17 GGzerG wrote: Wow I haven't played SC2 in a long time...they gave Infestors dark swarm? This is insane
not quite, actually not even close: Creates a shroud that obscures ground units underneath, reducing damage taken from air units by 50%. Lasts 11 seconds.
On December 19 2019 21:43 Nars_ wrote: Ahh the classic Zerg buff with 44% TvZ and 46% PvZ at the top of the pack.
Ahh the classic whine about a patch while completely ignoring it's context. No one uses microbial shrowd, and honestly i don't see it changing even with the latest buffs. The very idea behind it is flawed, a spell to protect the limited zerg ground to air units (=hydra and queen), which negates half the damage and only from aerial attacks. Rather conditional, don't you think?
Now list the wide range of protoss ground to air units.
On December 20 2019 01:51 Legan wrote: If Microbial Shroud is buffed enough, that it becomes good and is not used as much mostly because Fungal Growth, Neural Parasite, Abduct, Blinding Cloud or Parasitic Bomb are just better in most cases, then they can start looking to ways to nerf the other options that are used. This is something that many would probably want to see.
Yes please! Namely Neural needs to be nerfed again. Fungal seems fine I'd say something like capital ships can't be neuraled but that might tip the balance in TvZ too much. Probably better if they give the Carrier the heroic tag too since this seems the unit Shroud is best suited against. Or make neural really expensive mana wise, like 150
On December 19 2019 21:43 Nars_ wrote: Ahh the classic Zerg buff with 44% TvZ and 46% PvZ at the top of the pack.
Ahh the classic whine about a patch while completely ignoring it's context. No one uses microbial shrowd, and honestly i don't see it changing even with the latest buffs. The very idea behind it is flawed, a spell to protect the limited zerg ground to air units (=hydra and queen), which negates half the damage and only from aerial attacks. Rather conditional, don't you think?
Now list the wide range of protoss ground to air units.
Everyone's focusing on ZvP, but Microbial shroud is definitely going to be a huge factor for breaking liberator lines in ZvT. That's the primary use case.
On December 21 2019 07:18 ThunderJunk wrote: Everyone's focusing on ZvP, but Microbial shroud is definitely going to be a huge factor for breaking liberator lines in ZvT. That's the primary use case.
That may be the intention, but half of "hell of a lot of damage" is still "a lot more damage than you want to take"... Zerg cannot move into liberators with anything but zerglings unless the game is decided already, shroud doesn't make any difference. On a side note, I thought abduct was meant to be the anti-liberator spell. Side note 2: shroud "replaces" infested terrans which never had any use against liberators but were rather the only counter to protoss mass air.
On December 21 2019 07:18 ThunderJunk wrote: Everyone's focusing on ZvP, but Microbial shroud is definitely going to be a huge factor for breaking liberator lines in ZvT. That's the primary use case.
That may be the intention, but half of "hell of a lot of damage" is still "a lot more damage than you want to take"... Zerg cannot move into liberators with anything but zerglings unless the game is decided already, shroud doesn't make any difference. On a side note, I thought abduct was meant to be the anti-liberator spell. Side note 2: shroud "replaces" infested terrans which never had any use against liberators but were rather the only counter to protoss mass air.
Mass infested Terran was the cheapest and fastest way to get rid of liberators on the old patch because the libs couldn't ever get all the eggs and ITs tore through air units.
I feel like the biggest miss on the shroud vs liberator interaction is that the shroud is stationary. Terrans don't stand and fight under the libs, they kite through the zones. And sure one could say "throw down shrouds and kill the libs with hydras". But to me that sounds like a lot more effort than just making corruptors and vipers. And it's only 50% damage reduction so it's also far less cost efficient. And the libs could still get away.
To me it seems like the shroud is meant to be used against capital ships. Probably mostly Protoss ones as well. But I reckon making enough hydras to make shroud worth it against Sky Toss either means you're already winning really hard or you're already losing.
On December 21 2019 07:18 ThunderJunk wrote: Everyone's focusing on ZvP, but Microbial shroud is definitely going to be a huge factor for breaking liberator lines in ZvT. That's the primary use case.
It's not very good, hydras are killed in 3 shots instead of 2 under the shrood. So you save 50/25 per hydras shot on the cloud, but considering infest pit + shrood + pathogen and two infestors cost 600/700, you need to fight with more than 12 hydras in two clouds to be worth it.
On December 18 2019 19:28 ejozl wrote: ... I think the shroud ability doesn't have to be so absolutely niche. A flavour thing you can do is to make it so when Marines and only Marines die while under the Shroud they become Infested Terrans and I'm not talking the Infested Terran of recent memory, but basically a shitty melee Zombie unit, have it be timeless so ppl would try accumulate the biggest zombie legion as possible
That is a brilliant idea to both broaden the spell's appeal and simultaneously retain a piece of the infested terran legacy. I particularly like the proposed details: (a) they should suck like an 80's-era Hollywood zombie; and (b) stick around until killed so there's the potential to really mass them up.
The drawback is it's a disincentive for Terran to make marines so in practice we might not see all that many zombie legions.
It would be logical to have the infested terran ability depend on the ol' swarm having actually killed some terrans. (The killed enemies providing "ammunition" for the infestors.) Thus it would not function against terran mech unless the zerg had killed SCVs. That would mean it could not function at all against Z or P of course.
Going further, it would be fun if "spawn infested terran" became "spawn infested enemy", where the spawned units were randomly selected from biological units that the zerg had killed, with the cost in mana proportional to the original cost of the unit.
I was going to say no flying units, but it would also be fun to see brood lords flopping about on the ground trying to bite the enemy's ankles or suffin'.
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
This line of thought is not productive. You can describe pretty much any unit in the game and make them sound overpowered by marking their advantages in big letters and leaving out the rest.
No, I can't describe any other unit in the game the way I can so easily point out how ridiculously strong Infestors and Vipers are.
Any person in a good frame of mind would be able to understand that in a game based on economy having the ability to grab and kill units with almost no risk involved is broken. Not only that its low risk high reward but some of the units they grab cost twice or more their own cost in both resources and supply.
Should zerg have any good units or should they just get rolled over by mass air or mass tank ?
That's a silly question if you know anything about the balance team
Players should be encouraged to mass up and trade low and mid tier units all game long,
This is the most FULL NA thing ive read all year +1
I mean do you find turtling in your base and having one big fight to be more compelling gameplay?
He said that this is what should happen not what does happen. Games with lots of interaction are just plain more fun and more interesting. At least in the opinion of many of us.
If you don't like those kind of games, you are entitled to your opinion but don't act like people who disagree with you are noobs with no justification behind it.
HeRoMaRiNe talked a lot about the state of TvZ today. He says the mech is viable so the matchup is not necessarily imbalanced, but that style (BCs and mech) is just not very fun to watch all the time. It's very predictable.
Here's why bio with ghost/lib doesn't work anymore:
On December 28 2019 04:58 sneakyfox wrote: HeRoMaRiNe talked a lot about the state of TvZ today. He says the mech is viable so the matchup is not necessarily imbalanced, but that style (BCs and mech) is just not very fun to watch all the time. It's very predictable.
Here's why bio with ghost/lib doesn't work anymore:
It's simple, maps need to be more like King's Cove if u want very late game tvz bio ghost. the expands need to be safe and not too far otherwise the mobility of the zerg army just crush u if u are out of position which is really impossible to avoid if u play on the current maps ( and that's why we only see mech recently ). BTW i got downvoted in reddit for saying exactly what heromarine says here, funny how clueless the community can be.
On December 28 2019 04:58 sneakyfox wrote: HeRoMaRiNe talked a lot about the state of TvZ today. He says the mech is viable so the matchup is not necessarily imbalanced, but that style (BCs and mech) is just not very fun to watch all the time. It's very predictable.
Here's why bio with ghost/lib doesn't work anymore:
It's simple, maps need to be more like King's Cove if u want very late game tvz bio ghost. the expands need to be safe and not too far otherwise the mobility of the zerg army just crush u if u are out of position which is really impossible to avoid if u play on the current maps ( and that's why we only see mech recently ). BTW i got downvoted in reddit for saying exactly what heromarine says here, funny how clueless the community can be.
Maybe because you are not a professional like Heromarine, keep pushing :D
On December 28 2019 04:58 sneakyfox wrote: HeRoMaRiNe talked a lot about the state of TvZ today. He says the mech is viable so the matchup is not necessarily imbalanced, but that style (BCs and mech) is just not very fun to watch all the time. It's very predictable.
Here's why bio with ghost/lib doesn't work anymore:
It's simple, maps need to be more like King's Cove if u want very late game tvz bio ghost. the expands need to be safe and not too far otherwise the mobility of the zerg army just crush u if u are out of position which is really impossible to avoid if u play on the current maps ( and that's why we only see mech recently ). BTW i got downvoted in reddit for saying exactly what heromarine says here, funny how clueless the community can be.
Maybe because you are not a professional like Heromarine, keep pushing :D
And there is a reason Zergs always end up with the bigger banks in a game it's because not only do they get to expand more but their armies are extremely cost efficient.
LOL
I'd say you should uninstall SC2 immediately, but it's pretty obvious you never installed or played it
Of course it's only one data point in the offseason with no big tournaments going on and you can quibble about aligulac's methodology, but this is as far as I can tell the best two week period for terran in TvZ since Wings of Liberty.
I guess we'll see in the coming weeks if this was just a huge outlier or if zerg starts figuring out the thor styles that are popular now.
I like the small tidbits of statistics that don't really say much. Example: Best terran overall in Ziggurat's link is Maru. Best TvP is Cure, best TvT is Cure. Maru is solely leading with TvZ, meaning that Cure sucks vs Z and/or Maru dominates vs Z.
Swings across periods aren't uncommon, I doubt this one is too significant, though the patch does seem to have had a positive effect overall.
While swings across periods are quite common, a swing this big isn't at all. TvZ's been hovering at roughly 46-47% all year with maybe 4% variation between periods usually so 61% is at the very least a huge outlier if it doesn't indicate some change in balance.
Swings across periods aren't uncommon, I doubt this one is too significant, though the patch does seem to have had a positive effect overall.
While swings across periods are quite common, a swing this big isn't at all. TvZ's been hovering at roughly 46-47% all year with maybe 4% variation between periods usually so 61% is at the very least a huge outlier if it doesn't indicate some change in balance.
The previous period was 46.14% (http://aligulac.com/periods/256/?sort=&race=ptzrs&nats=all), so what changed between the first half of December and the second?
I mean, it's clear that the patch did affect balance, as the December stats show, but I don't see this particular period as indicative of a larger trend indicating imbalance the other way.
Swings across periods aren't uncommon, I doubt this one is too significant, though the patch does seem to have had a positive effect overall.
While swings across periods are quite common, a swing this big isn't at all. TvZ's been hovering at roughly 46-47% all year with maybe 4% variation between periods usually so 61% is at the very least a huge outlier if it doesn't indicate some change in balance.
When more Terrans start winning because of balance changes, winrates spike up until they even out again when those Terrans start losing more to better Zergs they meet higher up in the brackets.
That's why TvZ has been close 50% all year because of the a handful A-tier Terrans smacking down a huge number of lower tier Zergs when they face them in the higher brackets.
So yeah, winrates are high, but without factoring for the representation of the races, it's not a very high quality statistic.
I propose 50% reduction on bunkers build time (automatically enable when enginerring bay is done) .. (and combined to a small creep size reduction)
- You can fix / hold on easily more positions on maps, - Protect tanks behind the bunker, - It have a synergy with mines, - Sligthly force ennemies to get around your defences, - Add micro management units inside and outside bunkers (Hype feature !!! )..
How such a building, so representative of Terran race, can be forgotten / gived up ???
I can add if stimpack is counter balanced by centrifugal hooks (and inversement), the bunker efficiency is really impaced by centrifugal hooks and no upgrade has been made to avoid this imbalanced interaction; in fact more you re waiting Zerg attack far from your base, more he can crush you, that s why i think it s necessary to settle faster.
This idea is really basic and intuitive, furthermore adding vcs in the terran army is already in meta (missile turrets / repair). I m trying to implement this change in galaxy editor but it s more complicated than expected (if someone know ?!).
Keep in mind Terrans have played their best game on this kind of maps... <3 Ohana <3 <3 <3 Catalyst
On January 05 2020 02:52 Vision_ wrote: I propose 50% reduction on bunkers build time (automatically enable when enginerring bay is done) .. (and combined to a small creep size reduction)
- You can fix / hold on easily more positions on maps, - Protect tanks behind the bunker, - It have a synergy with mines, - Sligthly force ennemies to get around your defences, - Add micro management units inside and outside bunkers (Hype feature !!! )..
How such a building, so representative of Terran race, can be forgotten / gived up ???
I can add if stimpack is counter balanced by centrifugal hooks (and inversement), the bunker efficiency is really impaced by centrifugal hooks and no upgrade has been made to avoid this imbalanced interaction; in fact more you re waiting Zerg attack far from your base, more he can crush you, that s why i think it s necessary to settle faster.
This idea is really basic and intuitive, furthermore adding vcs in the terran army is already in meta (missile turrets / repair). I m trying to implement this change in galaxy editor but it s more complicated than expected (if someone know ?!).
Keep in mind Terrans have played their best game on this kind of maps... <3 Ohana <3 <3 <3 Catalyst
Given how much map control is possible for other races with creep (vision and speed) and warp-tech (near-instant reinforcements), Terrans really need something that helps them hold the center of the map.
The threat of drops did that in early iterations of the game. But now that other races can also threaten similar tactics (warp prism, nydus), Terrans really haven't kept up in map control.
A change to the mechanics here, as you suggested, would also help distinguish the good from the great Terrans. Given equal raw mechanics, a more strategic Terran will benefit more from map-control over a "max to 200 supply and a-move" Terran.
SC2 sorely needs more strategy, not in unit comps or build openers, but in map-control, army-movement and positioning.
On January 05 2020 02:52 Vision_ wrote: I propose 50% reduction on bunkers build time (automatically enable when enginerring bay is done) .. (and combined to a small creep size reduction)
- You can fix / hold on easily more positions on maps, - Protect tanks behind the bunker, - It have a synergy with mines, - Sligthly force ennemies to get around your defences, - Add micro management units inside and outside bunkers (Hype feature !!! )..
How such a building, so representative of Terran race, can be forgotten / gived up ???
I can add if stimpack is counter balanced by centrifugal hooks (and inversement), the bunker efficiency is really impaced by centrifugal hooks and no upgrade has been made to avoid this imbalanced interaction; in fact more you re waiting Zerg attack far from your base, more he can crush you, that s why i think it s necessary to settle faster.
This idea is really basic and intuitive, furthermore adding vcs in the terran army is already in meta (missile turrets / repair). I m trying to implement this change in galaxy editor but it s more complicated than expected (if someone know ?!).
Keep in mind Terrans have played their best game on this kind of maps... <3 Ohana <3 <3 <3 Catalyst
Given how much map control is possible for other races with creep (vision and speed) and warp-tech (near-instant reinforcements), Terrans really need something that helps them hold the center of the map.
The threat of drops did that in early iterations of the game. But now that other races can also threaten similar tactics (warp prism, nydus), Terrans really haven't kept up in map control.
A change to the mechanics here, as you suggested, would also help distinguish the good from the great Terrans. Given equal raw mechanics, a more strategic Terran will benefit more from map-control over a "max to 200 supply and a-move" Terran.
SC2 sorely needs more strategy, not in unit comps or build openers, but in map-control, army-movement and positioning.
Terran has unmatched ability to old a position. The best "set and forget" units in liberators, widow mines, and tanks, which are so potent that they usually pay for themselves in spades.
Planetary fortresses which literally turn the tide of a game if a Protoss or Zerg player takes a single bad engagement attacking into one.
Mass orbital commands which means terran has the easier time taking and exploiting far off bases than protoss does, as well as mining without workers which can thrwo a wrench in zerg economy in lategame split match scenarios.
MMM that can move around the map at mach speed while being so efficient that they can trade well if not better than most protoss and zerg compositions that are used for pinch defenses.
Battlecruisers, the most powerful unit in the game bar none, that is more powerful than literally anything pound for pound, can delete its counters, insane burst damage, teleport anywhere in the map, force ridiculous base trades, and can be fully repaired.
The Ghost which has the same dps as a stalker, comes out on top vs all other casters, can cloak and be used to nuke spam a map.
And you want to give Terran more map control abilities?
On January 05 2020 02:52 Vision_ wrote: I propose 50% reduction on bunkers build time (automatically enable when enginerring bay is done) .. (and combined to a small creep size reduction)
- You can fix / hold on easily more positions on maps, - Protect tanks behind the bunker, - It have a synergy with mines, - Sligthly force ennemies to get around your defences, - Add micro management units inside and outside bunkers (Hype feature !!! )..
How such a building, so representative of Terran race, can be forgotten / gived up ???
I can add if stimpack is counter balanced by centrifugal hooks (and inversement), the bunker efficiency is really impaced by centrifugal hooks and no upgrade has been made to avoid this imbalanced interaction; in fact more you re waiting Zerg attack far from your base, more he can crush you, that s why i think it s necessary to settle faster.
This idea is really basic and intuitive, furthermore adding vcs in the terran army is already in meta (missile turrets / repair). I m trying to implement this change in galaxy editor but it s more complicated than expected (if someone know ?!).
Keep in mind Terrans have played their best game on this kind of maps... <3 Ohana <3 <3 <3 Catalyst
Given how much map control is possible for other races with creep (vision and speed) and warp-tech (near-instant reinforcements), Terrans really need something that helps them hold the center of the map.
The threat of drops did that in early iterations of the game. But now that other races can also threaten similar tactics (warp prism, nydus), Terrans really haven't kept up in map control.
A change to the mechanics here, as you suggested, would also help distinguish the good from the great Terrans. Given equal raw mechanics, a more strategic Terran will benefit more from map-control over a "max to 200 supply and a-move" Terran.
SC2 sorely needs more strategy, not in unit comps or build openers, but in map-control, army-movement and positioning.
Terran has unmatched ability to old a position. The best "set and forget" units in liberators, widow mines, and tanks, which are so potent that they usually pay for themselves in spades.
Planetary fortresses which literally turn the tide of a game if a Protoss or Zerg player takes a single bad engagement attacking into one.
Mass orbital commands which means terran has the easier time taking and exploiting far off bases than protoss does, as well as mining without workers which can thrwo a wrench in zerg economy in lategame split match scenarios.
MMM that can move around the map at mach speed while being so efficient that they can trade well if not better than most protoss and zerg compositions that are used for pinch defenses.
Battlecruisers, the most powerful unit in the game bar none, that is more powerful than literally anything pound for pound, can delete its counters, insane burst damage, teleport anywhere in the map, force ridiculous base trades, and can be fully repaired.
The Ghost which has the same dps as a stalker, comes out on top vs all other casters, can cloak and be used to nuke spam a map.
And you want to give Terran more map control abilities?
Seriously tho there are so much things wrong in this post but it's too long and a waste of time to discuss with someone like this, sorry just wanted to say this.
On January 05 2020 02:52 Vision_ wrote: I propose 50% reduction on bunkers build time (automatically enable when enginerring bay is done) .. (and combined to a small creep size reduction)
- You can fix / hold on easily more positions on maps, - Protect tanks behind the bunker, - It have a synergy with mines, - Sligthly force ennemies to get around your defences, - Add micro management units inside and outside bunkers (Hype feature !!! )..
How such a building, so representative of Terran race, can be forgotten / gived up ???
I can add if stimpack is counter balanced by centrifugal hooks (and inversement), the bunker efficiency is really impaced by centrifugal hooks and no upgrade has been made to avoid this imbalanced interaction; in fact more you re waiting Zerg attack far from your base, more he can crush you, that s why i think it s necessary to settle faster.
This idea is really basic and intuitive, furthermore adding vcs in the terran army is already in meta (missile turrets / repair). I m trying to implement this change in galaxy editor but it s more complicated than expected (if someone know ?!).
Keep in mind Terrans have played their best game on this kind of maps... <3 Ohana <3 <3 <3 Catalyst
Given how much map control is possible for other races with creep (vision and speed) and warp-tech (near-instant reinforcements), Terrans really need something that helps them hold the center of the map.
The threat of drops did that in early iterations of the game. But now that other races can also threaten similar tactics (warp prism, nydus), Terrans really haven't kept up in map control.
A change to the mechanics here, as you suggested, would also help distinguish the good from the great Terrans. Given equal raw mechanics, a more strategic Terran will benefit more from map-control over a "max to 200 supply and a-move" Terran.
SC2 sorely needs more strategy, not in unit comps or build openers, but in map-control, army-movement and positioning.
Terran has unmatched ability to old a position. The best "set and forget" units in liberators, widow mines, and tanks, which are so potent that they usually pay for themselves in spades.
Planetary fortresses which literally turn the tide of a game if a Protoss or Zerg player takes a single bad engagement attacking into one.
Mass orbital commands which means terran has the easier time taking and exploiting far off bases than protoss does, as well as mining without workers which can thrwo a wrench in zerg economy in lategame split match scenarios.
MMM that can move around the map at mach speed while being so efficient that they can trade well if not better than most protoss and zerg compositions that are used for pinch defenses.
Battlecruisers, the most powerful unit in the game bar none, that is more powerful than literally anything pound for pound, can delete its counters, insane burst damage, teleport anywhere in the map, force ridiculous base trades, and can be fully repaired.
The Ghost which has the same dps as a stalker, comes out on top vs all other casters, can cloak and be used to nuke spam a map.
And you want to give Terran more map control abilities?
Seriously tho there are so much things wrong in this post but it's too long and a waste of time to discuss with someone like this, sorry just wanted to say this.
Considering you have not been able to provide a compelling response to the CONTENT of BerserkSword's post and focus on insulting the poster, I think this makes it very clear what is going on here.
Sorry if a bit meme-y but you're in the same league as this guy. Now we just need another salty person to describe how broken Protoss is.
On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote: That's what most Zergs think, that you don't have any options if your casters get nerfed. Problem with Zerg is you have so many options which are why they are so strong.
Viper Blinding Cloud and Abduct on a single caster is OUTRAGEOUS and on top of that it can fly.
Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.
Zerg casters should be nerfed hard and be forced to have to make specific army comps to counter Terran and Protoss, right now you can combine almost anything with these casters and you have a working counter that can respond to any enemy composition.
Zerg casters are way too versatile.
And there is a reason Zergs always end up with the bigger banks in a game it's because not only do they get to expand more but their armies are extremely cost efficient. Zergs power lies in fast remax,quick tech switches, cheap and many fast units.
Zerg in SC was built and balanced around what I mentioned above but at the moment Zerg does not need to use those strengths because Blizzard gave them armies so strong they outrade armies that can cost waaaay more then the Zerg army. Zerg is ment to use its advantages aggressively but now all they do is eat up the map with bases and creep and have armies that are extremely hard to engage.
That is another reason why Banelings are so strong now because we are supposed to accept Zerg can generate these insane banks so they can afford to make 100 friggin banelings that cost only 50 supply. It's madness and I seriously don't understand why there is not more outrage against this.
On January 05 2020 12:43 Crozo64 wrote: And the gold league post of the month goes to ...
On January 05 2020 09:35 BerserkSword wrote:
On January 05 2020 08:44 Pentarp wrote:
On January 05 2020 02:52 Vision_ wrote: I propose 50% reduction on bunkers build time (automatically enable when enginerring bay is done) .. (and combined to a small creep size reduction)
- You can fix / hold on easily more positions on maps, - Protect tanks behind the bunker, - It have a synergy with mines, - Sligthly force ennemies to get around your defences, - Add micro management units inside and outside bunkers (Hype feature !!! )..
How such a building, so representative of Terran race, can be forgotten / gived up ???
I can add if stimpack is counter balanced by centrifugal hooks (and inversement), the bunker efficiency is really impaced by centrifugal hooks and no upgrade has been made to avoid this imbalanced interaction; in fact more you re waiting Zerg attack far from your base, more he can crush you, that s why i think it s necessary to settle faster.
This idea is really basic and intuitive, furthermore adding vcs in the terran army is already in meta (missile turrets / repair). I m trying to implement this change in galaxy editor but it s more complicated than expected (if someone know ?!).
Keep in mind Terrans have played their best game on this kind of maps... <3 Ohana <3 <3 <3 Catalyst
Given how much map control is possible for other races with creep (vision and speed) and warp-tech (near-instant reinforcements), Terrans really need something that helps them hold the center of the map.
The threat of drops did that in early iterations of the game. But now that other races can also threaten similar tactics (warp prism, nydus), Terrans really haven't kept up in map control.
A change to the mechanics here, as you suggested, would also help distinguish the good from the great Terrans. Given equal raw mechanics, a more strategic Terran will benefit more from map-control over a "max to 200 supply and a-move" Terran.
SC2 sorely needs more strategy, not in unit comps or build openers, but in map-control, army-movement and positioning.
Terran has unmatched ability to old a position. The best "set and forget" units in liberators, widow mines, and tanks, which are so potent that they usually pay for themselves in spades.
Planetary fortresses which literally turn the tide of a game if a Protoss or Zerg player takes a single bad engagement attacking into one.
Mass orbital commands which means terran has the easier time taking and exploiting far off bases than protoss does, as well as mining without workers which can thrwo a wrench in zerg economy in lategame split match scenarios.
MMM that can move around the map at mach speed while being so efficient that they can trade well if not better than most protoss and zerg compositions that are used for pinch defenses.
Battlecruisers, the most powerful unit in the game bar none, that is more powerful than literally anything pound for pound, can delete its counters, insane burst damage, teleport anywhere in the map, force ridiculous base trades, and can be fully repaired.
The Ghost which has the same dps as a stalker, comes out on top vs all other casters, can cloak and be used to nuke spam a map.
And you want to give Terran more map control abilities?
Seriously tho there are so much things wrong in this post but it's too long and a waste of time to discuss with someone like this, sorry just wanted to say this.
Considering you have not been able to provide a compelling response to the CONTENT of BerserkSword's post and focus on insulting the poster, I think this makes it very clear what is going on here.
Well it s true, There s no need to much thought to understand how wrong are these arguments, either taken separetly..
I can easily bring to light what races specificities have or not.. This is already the subject, 'changes in the core of a race' which means there are probably (in the case of creep) multiple reasons in each races that make creep too powerfull (can t be resolved by a single change).
It seems you recite all the caracteristics of Terran race with forgetting the most important one.... Terran units are way way weaker when they attack in isolated manner.. That s why Pentarp's post is good (he s saying how important Terran has to hold on middle map, how the control of Terran is powerfull but not so big) , how a terran could defend a whole border line of creep without somes cost efficient units ? Mines only ? (which are only cost efficient in the main army group of Terran, even at PRO level)
So Berserksword forgot :
1) Terran mobility need significant micro management / siege mode / burrow mines 2) unit groups can t trade enought (Not so good separetly) in multiple defensive positions 3) 'The most incredible' : Supply cost for mines : 2 - while Supply cost for banelings : 0.5 (more expansive than an ultralisk) 4) +30% speed on creep... (not an argument but a specificity of Zerg) 5) Mines versatility etc...
If you don t read only few posts above argumentation of Berserksword, his post mostly play to our advantages
Protoss has way too many options right now which are too hard to counter.
They have the strongest deathball in the game with devastating Aoe damage which the opponent needs 3 hands to negate meanwhile toss a-moves.
The ability to see the entire map with invisible Observers and free hallucination scouts + maphack revelations. Protoss can't be surprised because they know what the opponent does all the time.
The ability to instantly create an army ANYWHERE ON THE MAP for just 200 minerals. Oh wait it got nerfed now it's 250 minerals such a huge nerf.
Furthermore Probes can just warpin buildings and INSTANTLY return to mining while Terran Scvs are occupied during the whole building process and drones get DESTROYED in the process. This leads to Protoss always having a superior economy.
On top of that they have the biggest balls in the game with disruptors. With such huge balls they are able to do riskier attacks than Zerg or Terran.
EPT
