• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:26
CEST 01:26
KST 08:26
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch0Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups4WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia8Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues29
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
Soulkey on ASL S20 A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 General Discussion Pros React To: SoulKey's 5-Peat Challenge
Tourneys
BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch [ASL20] Ro16 Group D [ASL20] Ro16 Group C [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Borderlands 3 General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1492 users

4.11.3 Patch (Adept revert) + Community Update - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
124 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 5 6 7 All
Crozo64
Profile Joined May 2016
64 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-01-05 03:53:10
January 05 2020 03:43 GMT
#121
And the gold league post of the month goes to ...
On January 05 2020 09:35 BerserkSword wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2020 08:44 Pentarp wrote:
On January 05 2020 02:52 Vision_ wrote:
I propose 50% reduction on bunkers build time (automatically enable when enginerring bay is done) .. (and combined to a small creep size reduction)

- You can fix / hold on easily more positions on maps,
- Protect tanks behind the bunker,
- It have a synergy with mines,
- Sligthly force ennemies to get around your defences,
- Add micro management units inside and outside bunkers (Hype feature !!! )..

How such a building, so representative of Terran race, can be forgotten / gived up ???

I can add if stimpack is counter balanced by centrifugal hooks (and inversement), the bunker efficiency is really impaced by centrifugal hooks and no upgrade has been made to avoid this imbalanced interaction; in fact more you re waiting Zerg attack far from your base, more he can crush you, that s why i think it s necessary to settle faster.

This idea is really basic and intuitive, furthermore adding vcs in the terran army is already in meta (missile turrets / repair). I m trying to implement this change in galaxy editor but it s more complicated than expected (if someone know ?!).

Keep in mind Terrans have played their best game on this kind of maps... <3 Ohana <3 <3 <3 Catalyst


Given how much map control is possible for other races with creep (vision and speed) and warp-tech (near-instant reinforcements), Terrans really need something that helps them hold the center of the map.

The threat of drops did that in early iterations of the game. But now that other races can also threaten similar tactics (warp prism, nydus), Terrans really haven't kept up in map control.

A change to the mechanics here, as you suggested, would also help distinguish the good from the great Terrans. Given equal raw mechanics, a more strategic Terran will benefit more from map-control over a "max to 200 supply and a-move" Terran.

SC2 sorely needs more strategy, not in unit comps or build openers, but in map-control, army-movement and positioning.


Terran has unmatched ability to old a position. The best "set and forget" units in liberators, widow mines, and tanks, which are so potent that they usually pay for themselves in spades.

Planetary fortresses which literally turn the tide of a game if a Protoss or Zerg player takes a single bad engagement attacking into one.

Mass orbital commands which means terran has the easier time taking and exploiting far off bases than protoss does, as well as mining without workers which can thrwo a wrench in zerg economy in lategame split match scenarios.

MMM that can move around the map at mach speed while being so efficient that they can trade well if not better than most protoss and zerg compositions that are used for pinch defenses.

Battlecruisers, the most powerful unit in the game bar none, that is more powerful than literally anything pound for pound, can delete its counters, insane burst damage, teleport anywhere in the map, force ridiculous base trades, and can be fully repaired.

The Ghost which has the same dps as a stalker, comes out on top vs all other casters, can cloak and be used to nuke spam a map.

And you want to give Terran more map control abilities?



Seriously tho there are so much things wrong in this post but it's too long and a waste of time to discuss with someone like this, sorry just wanted to say this.

Parcelleus
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia1662 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-01-05 07:16:50
January 05 2020 07:16 GMT
#122
On January 05 2020 12:43 Crozo64 wrote:
And the gold league post of the month goes to ...
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2020 09:35 BerserkSword wrote:
On January 05 2020 08:44 Pentarp wrote:
On January 05 2020 02:52 Vision_ wrote:
I propose 50% reduction on bunkers build time (automatically enable when enginerring bay is done) .. (and combined to a small creep size reduction)

- You can fix / hold on easily more positions on maps,
- Protect tanks behind the bunker,
- It have a synergy with mines,
- Sligthly force ennemies to get around your defences,
- Add micro management units inside and outside bunkers (Hype feature !!! )..

How such a building, so representative of Terran race, can be forgotten / gived up ???

I can add if stimpack is counter balanced by centrifugal hooks (and inversement), the bunker efficiency is really impaced by centrifugal hooks and no upgrade has been made to avoid this imbalanced interaction; in fact more you re waiting Zerg attack far from your base, more he can crush you, that s why i think it s necessary to settle faster.

This idea is really basic and intuitive, furthermore adding vcs in the terran army is already in meta (missile turrets / repair). I m trying to implement this change in galaxy editor but it s more complicated than expected (if someone know ?!).

Keep in mind Terrans have played their best game on this kind of maps... <3 Ohana <3 <3 <3 Catalyst


Given how much map control is possible for other races with creep (vision and speed) and warp-tech (near-instant reinforcements), Terrans really need something that helps them hold the center of the map.

The threat of drops did that in early iterations of the game. But now that other races can also threaten similar tactics (warp prism, nydus), Terrans really haven't kept up in map control.

A change to the mechanics here, as you suggested, would also help distinguish the good from the great Terrans. Given equal raw mechanics, a more strategic Terran will benefit more from map-control over a "max to 200 supply and a-move" Terran.

SC2 sorely needs more strategy, not in unit comps or build openers, but in map-control, army-movement and positioning.


Terran has unmatched ability to old a position. The best "set and forget" units in liberators, widow mines, and tanks, which are so potent that they usually pay for themselves in spades.

Planetary fortresses which literally turn the tide of a game if a Protoss or Zerg player takes a single bad engagement attacking into one.

Mass orbital commands which means terran has the easier time taking and exploiting far off bases than protoss does, as well as mining without workers which can thrwo a wrench in zerg economy in lategame split match scenarios.

MMM that can move around the map at mach speed while being so efficient that they can trade well if not better than most protoss and zerg compositions that are used for pinch defenses.

Battlecruisers, the most powerful unit in the game bar none, that is more powerful than literally anything pound for pound, can delete its counters, insane burst damage, teleport anywhere in the map, force ridiculous base trades, and can be fully repaired.

The Ghost which has the same dps as a stalker, comes out on top vs all other casters, can cloak and be used to nuke spam a map.

And you want to give Terran more map control abilities?



Seriously tho there are so much things wrong in this post but it's too long and a waste of time to discuss with someone like this, sorry just wanted to say this.



Considering you have not been able to provide a compelling response to the CONTENT of BerserkSword's post and focus on insulting the poster, I think this makes it very clear what is going on here.
*burp*
WaesumNinja
Profile Joined February 2012
210 Posts
January 05 2020 09:23 GMT
#123
Sorry if a bit meme-y but you're in the same league as this guy. Now we just need another salty person to describe how broken Protoss is.

On December 18 2019 20:08 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
That's what most Zergs think, that you don't have any options if your casters get nerfed. Problem with Zerg is you have so many options which are why they are so strong.

Viper Blinding Cloud and Abduct on a single caster is OUTRAGEOUS and on top of that it can fly.

Infestor a 2 supply unit that can MOVE IN STEALTH and instantly steal 6 supply units that cost tons of minerals and gas FROM RANGE.

Zerg casters should be nerfed hard and be forced to have to make specific army comps to counter Terran and Protoss, right now you can combine almost anything with these casters and you have a working counter that can respond to any enemy composition.

Zerg casters are way too versatile.

And there is a reason Zergs always end up with the bigger banks in a game it's because not only do they get to expand more but their armies are extremely cost efficient. Zergs power lies in fast remax,quick tech switches, cheap and many fast units.

Zerg in SC was built and balanced around what I mentioned above but at the moment Zerg does not need to use those strengths because Blizzard gave them armies so strong they outrade armies that can cost waaaay more then the Zerg army. Zerg is ment to use its advantages aggressively but now all they do is eat up the map with bases and creep and have armies that are extremely hard to engage.

That is another reason why Banelings are so strong now because we are supposed to accept Zerg can generate these insane banks so they can afford to make 100 friggin banelings that cost only 50 supply. It's madness and I seriously don't understand why there is not more outrage against this.

Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-01-05 11:00:49
January 05 2020 09:45 GMT
#124
On January 05 2020 16:16 Parcelleus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2020 12:43 Crozo64 wrote:
And the gold league post of the month goes to ...
On January 05 2020 09:35 BerserkSword wrote:
On January 05 2020 08:44 Pentarp wrote:
On January 05 2020 02:52 Vision_ wrote:
I propose 50% reduction on bunkers build time (automatically enable when enginerring bay is done) .. (and combined to a small creep size reduction)

- You can fix / hold on easily more positions on maps,
- Protect tanks behind the bunker,
- It have a synergy with mines,
- Sligthly force ennemies to get around your defences,
- Add micro management units inside and outside bunkers (Hype feature !!! )..

How such a building, so representative of Terran race, can be forgotten / gived up ???

I can add if stimpack is counter balanced by centrifugal hooks (and inversement), the bunker efficiency is really impaced by centrifugal hooks and no upgrade has been made to avoid this imbalanced interaction; in fact more you re waiting Zerg attack far from your base, more he can crush you, that s why i think it s necessary to settle faster.

This idea is really basic and intuitive, furthermore adding vcs in the terran army is already in meta (missile turrets / repair). I m trying to implement this change in galaxy editor but it s more complicated than expected (if someone know ?!).

Keep in mind Terrans have played their best game on this kind of maps... <3 Ohana <3 <3 <3 Catalyst


Given how much map control is possible for other races with creep (vision and speed) and warp-tech (near-instant reinforcements), Terrans really need something that helps them hold the center of the map.

The threat of drops did that in early iterations of the game. But now that other races can also threaten similar tactics (warp prism, nydus), Terrans really haven't kept up in map control.

A change to the mechanics here, as you suggested, would also help distinguish the good from the great Terrans. Given equal raw mechanics, a more strategic Terran will benefit more from map-control over a "max to 200 supply and a-move" Terran.

SC2 sorely needs more strategy, not in unit comps or build openers, but in map-control, army-movement and positioning.


Terran has unmatched ability to old a position. The best "set and forget" units in liberators, widow mines, and tanks, which are so potent that they usually pay for themselves in spades.

Planetary fortresses which literally turn the tide of a game if a Protoss or Zerg player takes a single bad engagement attacking into one.

Mass orbital commands which means terran has the easier time taking and exploiting far off bases than protoss does, as well as mining without workers which can thrwo a wrench in zerg economy in lategame split match scenarios.

MMM that can move around the map at mach speed while being so efficient that they can trade well if not better than most protoss and zerg compositions that are used for pinch defenses.

Battlecruisers, the most powerful unit in the game bar none, that is more powerful than literally anything pound for pound, can delete its counters, insane burst damage, teleport anywhere in the map, force ridiculous base trades, and can be fully repaired.

The Ghost which has the same dps as a stalker, comes out on top vs all other casters, can cloak and be used to nuke spam a map.

And you want to give Terran more map control abilities?



Seriously tho there are so much things wrong in this post but it's too long and a waste of time to discuss with someone like this, sorry just wanted to say this.



Considering you have not been able to provide a compelling response to the CONTENT of BerserkSword's post and focus on insulting the poster, I think this makes it very clear what is going on here.



Well it s true,
There s no need to much thought to understand how wrong are these arguments, either taken separetly..

I can easily bring to light what races specificities have or not.. This is already the subject, 'changes in the core of a race' which means there are probably (in the case of creep) multiple reasons in each races that make creep too powerfull (can t be resolved by a single change).

It seems you recite all the caracteristics of Terran race with forgetting the most important one.... Terran units are way way weaker when they attack in isolated manner.. That s why Pentarp's post is good (he s saying how important Terran has to hold on middle map, how the control of Terran is powerfull but not so big) , how a terran could defend a whole border line of creep without somes cost efficient units ? Mines only ? (which are only cost efficient in the main army group of Terran, even at PRO level)

So Berserksword forgot :

1) Terran mobility need significant micro management / siege mode / burrow mines
2) unit groups can t trade enought (Not so good separetly) in multiple defensive positions
3) 'The most incredible' : Supply cost for mines : 2 - while Supply cost for banelings : 0.5 (more expansive than an ultralisk)
4) +30% speed on creep... (not an argument but a specificity of Zerg)
5) Mines versatility
etc...

If you don t read only few posts above argumentation of Berserksword, his post mostly play to our advantages
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-01-05 11:08:17
January 05 2020 11:03 GMT
#125
Protoss has way too many options right now which are too hard to counter.

They have the strongest deathball in the game with devastating Aoe damage which the opponent needs 3 hands to negate meanwhile toss a-moves.

The ability to see the entire map with invisible Observers and free hallucination scouts + maphack revelations.
Protoss can't be surprised because they know what the opponent does all the time.

The ability to instantly create an army ANYWHERE ON THE MAP for just 200 minerals. Oh wait it got nerfed now it's 250 minerals such a huge nerf.

Furthermore Probes can just warpin buildings and INSTANTLY return to mining while Terran Scvs are occupied during the whole building process and drones get DESTROYED in the process.
This leads to Protoss always having a superior economy.

On top of that they have the biggest balls in the game with disruptors. With such huge balls they are able to do riskier attacks than Zerg or Terran.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Prev 1 5 6 7 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
19:00
Mid Season Playoffs
Spirit vs PercivalLIVE!
Cham vs TBD
ByuN vs Jumy
SteadfastSC1219
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SteadfastSC 1219
NeuroSwarm 163
Nathanias 71
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 15092
Rain 1662
Artosis 684
Shuttle 482
NaDa 33
Dota 2
monkeys_forever976
Counter-Strike
fl0m947
Stewie2K662
Fnx 443
Other Games
summit1g6542
Grubby3211
FrodaN782
ToD243
C9.Mang0151
JimRising 149
Maynarde113
Trikslyr47
ViBE30
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick448
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta39
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie1317
• Scarra1148
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
10h 34m
Maru vs Reynor
Cure vs TriGGeR
Map Test Tournament
11h 34m
The PondCast
13h 34m
RSL Revival
1d 10h
Zoun vs Classic
Korean StarCraft League
2 days
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Online Event
3 days
[ Show More ]
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
LiuLi Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.