Some suggestions regarding the PvT tragedy - Page 5

Another High IQ poster

On June 12 2019 00:30 renaissanceMAN wrote:


Excellent contribution to this discussion, you must be very good at this game!

On June 11 2019 23:20 Vanadiel wrote:


Yeah, and it is unfortunate to be honest, they did acknowledge the fact that warping mechanic was a problem by nerfing pylone warping which was a step in the good direction, but they gave such a buff to the warp prism as a micro unit during battle and as an harass unit that they aggravated the problem.

On June 12 2019 07:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates.

Then if protoss struggles too much maybe make the oracle light again, since armored tag + cyclones make them quite useless.

On June 10 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote:
- return the siege mode upgrade
- increase the interference matrix cost to 75
Boom! PvT becomes somewhat playable.

On June 12 2019 08:30 Cyro wrote:


Those issues also exist in other matchups as well.

For example, lategame ZvP is so disgustingly Z favored that it's very difficult to find even a single game of it in 2019.

Tournament viewers don't see that directly so they place the blame entirely on the P earlygame when it's only a single piece of the puzzle - Protoss were doing these all-ins literally every game for months even when it was only winning 45% of the time because even that was better than the alternative.

It's a "don't let them get there" matchup all over again with zerg on the other side of it now. The main changes that pushed it there were the several nerfs to carriers, nerf to tempest and feedback nerf.

On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86%
Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63%

Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/

And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real.

On June 12 2019 09:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


You've created a false dichotomy between "nerfing Protoss" and "buffing Protoss". One could simply not nerf Protoss, or attempt to tweak all the races in such a way that the even win-rates are maintained while addressing the various issues presented (frustrating strategies, certain races being stronger in the early game or late game, etc.).

On June 12 2019 09:07 terribleplayer1 wrote:


Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea.

I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals.

/s ( of course)

Aligulac can't be taken seriously for "pro gaming" winrates, most of the games registered are not from pro gamer vs pro gamer, PvZ winrates are probably around 60-65% for Protoss in KR, and PvT around 55%~ , and that's with twice as many protoss at least than zergs/terrans in the later stages of tournaments.


But yes Zerg is favoured on late game, and maybe TOO favoured, it's hard to tell when they all die to 2 base timings.

On June 12 2019 08:56 BerserkSword wrote:


going to add to this:

- some kind of nerf to widow mines. The ability of a 75/25 reactor unit to either kill double digit workers or kill/maim the most expensive units in the game is ridiculous

- battlecruiser nerf. Let's be real here. Battlecruisers are broken in TvP. Protoss has no counter play against them thanks to the godly triad of yamato/tactical jump/raw pound-for-pound strength. Tempests are not a viable answer as they cannot engage battlecruisers directly, cannot abuse their range t hanks to tactical jump, and cannot challenge a base trade initiated by battlecruisers which have far greater dps and map presence. Void rays are arguably the worst unit in the game and cannot trade well thanks to yamato + tj anyway. lolstalkers

- marauder nerf. The ability of marauders to threaten and trade with every protoss ground unit in the game, even zealots, is absurd



great post. I would like to add that it was just not Blizzard nerfing Protoss late game into oblivion - it was also Blizzard nerfing zerg defensive capability in the form of queen and creep.

If protoss late game is helpless, and zerg early-mid game is nerfed, what does anyone expect would happen? Protoss players would obviously try to end the game before the untouchable infestor/viper compositions come out. That's why you see protoss players busting out the cheese and myriad of timings.

And now people are looking for scapegoats like the warp prism, which has been the same and nobody complained about until Blizzard did their unnecessary tinkering.

On June 12 2019 09:22 Wombat_NI wrote:

If Terran are using mech in Korean tournaments more against Protoss than Protoss are playing for the late game using any style, probably all you need to know.

They’re not stupid, they practice with people, they ladder. It’s not really ‘hard to tell’, Protoss is fucked if they try to go toe to toe with Zerg in lategame.

Previously Stargate harassment to keep the Zerg eco in check, while building a core of Robo units and Templar, and then the lategame transition is to use your Stargates again for Carriers

There’s a flow there that makes sense, that’s how you go toe to toe with a Zerg ‘straight up’ Now Carriers are worse and feedback is worse at killing casters.

So you have worse Carriers, a worse counter to viper pulls and infestors, and (solely referring to the lategame) you have nothing that is actually better than before.

That flow just doesn’t work anymore, it can’t work, the fact that the best Protoss players in the world don’t even try to throw in a lategame focused game even in a Bo5 is probably saying something.

Serral can win a Blizzcon in that meta by outplaying Stats, even with the supposed awful Skytoss. There are options there for each side.

Now we have a much, much worse PvZ meta where soO can just get all-inned every single set by Classic and roll the dice wrong more times than not.

On June 12 2019 10:16 seemsgood wrote:


but we wont take this thread as an opportunity to whine about something dat doesnt have anything to do with this thread
i cant online 24/7 to shut down both you guys everything freaking time dudes
jeezzz

On June 11 2019 05:39 renaissanceMAN wrote:


I mean, people are throwing some ideas out that definitely feel more 'fun' than necessarily game-fixing, but regardless of that, it's hard to judge the game based on a single source of information (even if that source is a particularly good one).

How would you explain pros who are openly saying that PvZ is broken and there was only a single Terran in the RO8 based on that chart?

(definitely not trying to argue how good/bad Aligulac is, just playing devil's advocate)

On June 12 2019 10:34 Wombat_NI wrote:

I’m not really sure why you have to be online 24/7 to respond to a post that’s a direct response to someone specifically talking about PvZ within this thread but OK

Like you can just ignore it, it’s OK. We don’t really need you manning the Internet fort 24/7

‘Oh I could shut you down if I tried, instead I’ll make this snarky post taking as many words and as much effort as any kind of rebuttal’