Another High IQ poster
It took me a while to realize that wasn't sarcasm.
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SC2RandomPotatoe
3 Posts
Another High IQ poster It took me a while to realize that wasn't sarcasm. | ||
renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On June 11 2019 23:43 NbaLover wrote: Show nested quote + On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is: 1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech. 2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea. 3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg. So let´s get all together: Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea! I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish. Another High IQ poster But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP. Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are. I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills. Excellent contribution to this discussion, you must be very good at this game! | ||
NbaLover
24 Posts
On June 12 2019 00:30 renaissanceMAN wrote: Show nested quote + On June 11 2019 23:43 NbaLover wrote: On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is: 1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech. 2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea. 3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg. So let´s get all together: Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea! I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish. Another High IQ poster But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP. Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are. I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills. Excellent contribution to this discussion, you must be very good at this game! I'm probably better than 80% of the player base. Good enough to not blame balance on my own mistakes when I play the game. You know I actually play the game rather than play "theory craft" like the majority of the posters here. But carry on with your theory crafting with the rest of your gang big boy | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20683 Posts
On June 11 2019 23:20 Vanadiel wrote: Show nested quote + On June 11 2019 22:25 Wombat_NI wrote: You could still get around that by just removing the energy requirement with an upgrade. It’s not really elegant I suppose, I’d like to see them experiment with some kind of nerf specifically around timings vZ, that you can ‘un-nerf’ via an upgrade, so you don’t have to rebalance too much at once and can test stuff in isolation to see what they affect. I feel we’re feeling the effects of Blizzard never really addressing other core issues, and giving us Protoss a stronger and stronger warp prism to compensate to the degree our race is utterly dependent on it Yeah, and it is unfortunate to be honest, they did acknowledge the fact that warping mechanic was a problem by nerfing pylone warping which was a step in the good direction, but they gave such a buff to the warp prism as a micro unit during battle and as an harass unit that they aggravated the problem. I don’t really understand that, at least currently it feels the two should be the other way around, of course early cheese throws a spanner in that. The mobile unit that has other micro utility is better at warpin things than the building that requires a probe on the map, and has a build time. I feel flipping that around would make some sense, it probably would bring other problems for sure, but in isolation. What I don’t like about the prism is it enables a Protoss to transition from small poke of units to committed all-in very quickly, and there’s no real downside there, but it’s really difficult to know what’s coming until it’s right on you. With pylons at least the Protoss has to set up riskily, or have a longer reinforcement time for a more safe pylon. | ||
BronzeKnee
United States5207 Posts
Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63% Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real. | ||
DarkPlasmaBall
United States42202 Posts
On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63% Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real. The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates. | ||
Cyro
United Kingdom20154 Posts
On June 12 2019 07:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Show nested quote + On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63% Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real. The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates. Those issues also exist in other matchups as well. For example, lategame ZvP is so disgustingly Z favored that it's very difficult to find even a single game of it in 2019. Tournament viewers don't see that directly so they place the blame entirely on the P earlygame when it's only a single piece of the puzzle - Protoss were doing these all-ins literally every game for months even when it was only winning 45% of the time because even that was better than the alternative. It's a "don't let them get there" matchup all over again with zerg on the other side of it now. The main changes that pushed it there were the several nerfs to carriers, nerf to tempest and feedback nerf. -------- Then if protoss struggles too much maybe make the oracle light again, since armored tag + cyclones make them quite useless. Unrelated but i gotta comment on this. The main reason that the oracle is Armored is for PvP. See https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/505739-a-change-to-the-oracle | ||
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 10 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote: - return the siege mode upgrade - increase the interference matrix cost to 75 Boom! PvT becomes somewhat playable. going to add to this: - some kind of nerf to widow mines. The ability of a 75/25 reactor unit to either kill double digit workers or kill/maim the most expensive units in the game is ridiculous - battlecruiser nerf. Let's be real here. Battlecruisers are broken in TvP. Protoss has no counter play against them thanks to the godly triad of yamato/tactical jump/raw pound-for-pound strength. Tempests are not a viable answer as they cannot engage battlecruisers directly, cannot abuse their range t hanks to tactical jump, and cannot challenge a base trade initiated by battlecruisers which have far greater dps and map presence. Void rays are arguably the worst unit in the game and cannot trade well thanks to yamato + tj anyway. lolstalkers - marauder nerf. The ability of marauders to threaten and trade with every protoss ground unit in the game, even zealots, is absurd On June 12 2019 08:30 Cyro wrote: Show nested quote + On June 12 2019 07:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63% Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real. The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates. Those issues also exist in other matchups as well. For example, lategame ZvP is so disgustingly Z favored that it's very difficult to find even a single game of it in 2019. Tournament viewers don't see that directly so they place the blame entirely on the P earlygame when it's only a single piece of the puzzle - Protoss were doing these all-ins literally every game for months even when it was only winning 45% of the time because even that was better than the alternative. It's a "don't let them get there" matchup all over again with zerg on the other side of it now. The main changes that pushed it there were the several nerfs to carriers, nerf to tempest and feedback nerf. great post. I would like to add that it was just not Blizzard nerfing Protoss late game into oblivion - it was also Blizzard nerfing zerg defensive capability in the form of queen and creep. If protoss late game is helpless, and zerg early-mid game is nerfed, what does anyone expect would happen? Protoss players would obviously try to end the game before the untouchable infestor/viper compositions come out. That's why you see protoss players busting out the cheese and myriad of timings. And now people are looking for scapegoats like the warp prism, which has been the same and nobody complained about until Blizzard did their unnecessary tinkering. | ||
terribleplayer1
95 Posts
On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63% Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real. Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea. I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals. /s ( of course) Aligulac can't be taken seriously for "pro gaming" winrates, most of the games registered are not from pro gamer vs pro gamer, PvZ winrates are probably around 60-65% for Protoss in KR, and PvT around 55%~ , and that's with twice as many protoss at least than zergs/terrans in the later stages of tournaments. But yes Zerg is favoured on late game, and maybe TOO favoured, it's hard to tell when they all die to 2 base timings. Will someone think of the poor protoss? | ||
DarkPlasmaBall
United States42202 Posts
On June 12 2019 09:07 terribleplayer1 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63% Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real. Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea. I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals. /s ( of course) You've created a false dichotomy between "nerfing Protoss" and "buffing Protoss". One could simply not nerf Protoss, or attempt to tweak all the races in such a way that the even win-rates are maintained while addressing the various issues presented (frustrating strategies, certain races being stronger in the early game or late game, etc.). | ||
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 12 2019 09:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Show nested quote + On June 12 2019 09:07 terribleplayer1 wrote: On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63% Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real. Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea. I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals. /s ( of course) You've created a false dichotomy between "nerfing Protoss" and "buffing Protoss". One could simply not nerf Protoss, or attempt to tweak all the races in such a way that the even win-rates are maintained while addressing the various issues presented (frustrating strategies, certain races being stronger in the early game or late game, etc.). that way of thinking doesnt fall in line with the narrative of the Protoss Boogeyman though | ||
terribleplayer1
95 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland20683 Posts
On June 12 2019 09:07 terribleplayer1 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63% Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real. Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea. I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals. /s ( of course) Aligulac can't be taken seriously for "pro gaming" winrates, most of the games registered are not from pro gamer vs pro gamer, PvZ winrates are probably around 60-65% for Protoss in KR, and PvT around 55%~ , and that's with twice as many protoss at least than zergs/terrans in the later stages of tournaments. But yes Zerg is favoured on late game, and maybe TOO favoured, it's hard to tell when they all die to 2 base timings. If Terran are using mech in Korean tournaments more against Protoss than Protoss are playing for the late game using any style, probably all you need to know. They’re not stupid, they practice with people, they ladder. It’s not really ‘hard to tell’, Protoss is fucked if they try to go toe to toe with Zerg in lategame. Previously Stargate harassment to keep the Zerg eco in check, while building a core of Robo units and Templar, and then the lategame transition is to use your Stargates again for Carriers There’s a flow there that makes sense, that’s how you go toe to toe with a Zerg ‘straight up’ Now Carriers are worse and feedback is worse at killing casters. So you have worse Carriers, a worse counter to viper pulls and infestors, and (solely referring to the lategame) you have nothing that is actually better than before. That flow just doesn’t work anymore, it can’t work, the fact that the best Protoss players in the world don’t even try to throw in a lategame focused game even in a Bo5 is probably saying something. Serral can win a Blizzcon in that meta by outplaying Stats, even with the supposed awful Skytoss. There are options there for each side. Now we have a much, much worse PvZ meta where soO can just get all-inned every single set by Classic and roll the dice wrong more times than not. | ||
DarkPlasmaBall
United States42202 Posts
On June 12 2019 09:21 terribleplayer1 wrote: There was no way to reply to a post that says PvT/PvZ are T/Z favoured but with sarcasm and that's what you decide to quote lol,literally a couple sentences ahead I say Zerg late game might be TOO strong. I'm fairly certain that you edited your post after I initially clicked the Quote button, so I may have missed that, but it seems odd that you would ridicule the idea of PvZ potentially being Zerg favored while admitting that at least part of the match-up is Zerg favored. Regardless, it seems that tweaking multiple races and trading slight advantages seem to be equitable and reasonable ideas. | ||
seemsgood
5527 Posts
OP you need to point out what is the issue we got in TvP first then start talking about it | ||
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 12 2019 08:56 BerserkSword wrote: Show nested quote + On June 10 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote: - return the siege mode upgrade - increase the interference matrix cost to 75 Boom! PvT becomes somewhat playable. going to add to this: - some kind of nerf to widow mines. The ability of a 75/25 reactor unit to either kill double digit workers or kill/maim the most expensive units in the game is ridiculous - battlecruiser nerf. Let's be real here. Battlecruisers are broken in TvP. Protoss has no counter play against them thanks to the godly triad of yamato/tactical jump/raw pound-for-pound strength. Tempests are not a viable answer as they cannot engage battlecruisers directly, cannot abuse their range t hanks to tactical jump, and cannot challenge a base trade initiated by battlecruisers which have far greater dps and map presence. Void rays are arguably the worst unit in the game and cannot trade well thanks to yamato + tj anyway. lolstalkers - marauder nerf. The ability of marauders to threaten and trade with every protoss ground unit in the game, even zealots, is absurd Show nested quote + On June 12 2019 08:30 Cyro wrote: On June 12 2019 07:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63% Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real. The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates. Those issues also exist in other matchups as well. For example, lategame ZvP is so disgustingly Z favored that it's very difficult to find even a single game of it in 2019. Tournament viewers don't see that directly so they place the blame entirely on the P earlygame when it's only a single piece of the puzzle - Protoss were doing these all-ins literally every game for months even when it was only winning 45% of the time because even that was better than the alternative. It's a "don't let them get there" matchup all over again with zerg on the other side of it now. The main changes that pushed it there were the several nerfs to carriers, nerf to tempest and feedback nerf. great post. I would like to add that it was just not Blizzard nerfing Protoss late game into oblivion - it was also Blizzard nerfing zerg defensive capability in the form of queen and creep. If protoss late game is helpless, and zerg early-mid game is nerfed, what does anyone expect would happen? Protoss players would obviously try to end the game before the untouchable infestor/viper compositions come out. That's why you see protoss players busting out the cheese and myriad of timings. And now people are looking for scapegoats like the warp prism, which has been the same and nobody complained about until Blizzard did their unnecessary tinkering. On June 12 2019 09:22 Wombat_NI wrote: Show nested quote + On June 12 2019 09:07 terribleplayer1 wrote: On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63% Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real. Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea. I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals. /s ( of course) Aligulac can't be taken seriously for "pro gaming" winrates, most of the games registered are not from pro gamer vs pro gamer, PvZ winrates are probably around 60-65% for Protoss in KR, and PvT around 55%~ , and that's with twice as many protoss at least than zergs/terrans in the later stages of tournaments. But yes Zerg is favoured on late game, and maybe TOO favoured, it's hard to tell when they all die to 2 base timings. If Terran are using mech in Korean tournaments more against Protoss than Protoss are playing for the late game using any style, probably all you need to know. They’re not stupid, they practice with people, they ladder. It’s not really ‘hard to tell’, Protoss is fucked if they try to go toe to toe with Zerg in lategame. Previously Stargate harassment to keep the Zerg eco in check, while building a core of Robo units and Templar, and then the lategame transition is to use your Stargates again for Carriers There’s a flow there that makes sense, that’s how you go toe to toe with a Zerg ‘straight up’ Now Carriers are worse and feedback is worse at killing casters. So you have worse Carriers, a worse counter to viper pulls and infestors, and (solely referring to the lategame) you have nothing that is actually better than before. That flow just doesn’t work anymore, it can’t work, the fact that the best Protoss players in the world don’t even try to throw in a lategame focused game even in a Bo5 is probably saying something. Serral can win a Blizzcon in that meta by outplaying Stats, even with the supposed awful Skytoss. There are options there for each side. Now we have a much, much worse PvZ meta where soO can just get all-inned every single set by Classic and roll the dice wrong more times than not. but we wont take this thread as an opportunity to whine about something dat doesnt have anything to do with this thread i cant online 24/7 to shut down both you guys everything freaking time dudes jeezzz | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20683 Posts
On June 12 2019 10:16 seemsgood wrote: Show nested quote + On June 12 2019 08:56 BerserkSword wrote: On June 10 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote: - return the siege mode upgrade - increase the interference matrix cost to 75 Boom! PvT becomes somewhat playable. going to add to this: - some kind of nerf to widow mines. The ability of a 75/25 reactor unit to either kill double digit workers or kill/maim the most expensive units in the game is ridiculous - battlecruiser nerf. Let's be real here. Battlecruisers are broken in TvP. Protoss has no counter play against them thanks to the godly triad of yamato/tactical jump/raw pound-for-pound strength. Tempests are not a viable answer as they cannot engage battlecruisers directly, cannot abuse their range t hanks to tactical jump, and cannot challenge a base trade initiated by battlecruisers which have far greater dps and map presence. Void rays are arguably the worst unit in the game and cannot trade well thanks to yamato + tj anyway. lolstalkers - marauder nerf. The ability of marauders to threaten and trade with every protoss ground unit in the game, even zealots, is absurd On June 12 2019 08:30 Cyro wrote: On June 12 2019 07:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63% Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real. The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates. Those issues also exist in other matchups as well. For example, lategame ZvP is so disgustingly Z favored that it's very difficult to find even a single game of it in 2019. Tournament viewers don't see that directly so they place the blame entirely on the P earlygame when it's only a single piece of the puzzle - Protoss were doing these all-ins literally every game for months even when it was only winning 45% of the time because even that was better than the alternative. It's a "don't let them get there" matchup all over again with zerg on the other side of it now. The main changes that pushed it there were the several nerfs to carriers, nerf to tempest and feedback nerf. great post. I would like to add that it was just not Blizzard nerfing Protoss late game into oblivion - it was also Blizzard nerfing zerg defensive capability in the form of queen and creep. If protoss late game is helpless, and zerg early-mid game is nerfed, what does anyone expect would happen? Protoss players would obviously try to end the game before the untouchable infestor/viper compositions come out. That's why you see protoss players busting out the cheese and myriad of timings. And now people are looking for scapegoats like the warp prism, which has been the same and nobody complained about until Blizzard did their unnecessary tinkering. Show nested quote + On June 12 2019 09:22 Wombat_NI wrote: On June 12 2019 09:07 terribleplayer1 wrote: On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63% Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real. Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea. I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals. /s ( of course) Aligulac can't be taken seriously for "pro gaming" winrates, most of the games registered are not from pro gamer vs pro gamer, PvZ winrates are probably around 60-65% for Protoss in KR, and PvT around 55%~ , and that's with twice as many protoss at least than zergs/terrans in the later stages of tournaments. But yes Zerg is favoured on late game, and maybe TOO favoured, it's hard to tell when they all die to 2 base timings. If Terran are using mech in Korean tournaments more against Protoss than Protoss are playing for the late game using any style, probably all you need to know. They’re not stupid, they practice with people, they ladder. It’s not really ‘hard to tell’, Protoss is fucked if they try to go toe to toe with Zerg in lategame. Previously Stargate harassment to keep the Zerg eco in check, while building a core of Robo units and Templar, and then the lategame transition is to use your Stargates again for Carriers There’s a flow there that makes sense, that’s how you go toe to toe with a Zerg ‘straight up’ Now Carriers are worse and feedback is worse at killing casters. So you have worse Carriers, a worse counter to viper pulls and infestors, and (solely referring to the lategame) you have nothing that is actually better than before. That flow just doesn’t work anymore, it can’t work, the fact that the best Protoss players in the world don’t even try to throw in a lategame focused game even in a Bo5 is probably saying something. Serral can win a Blizzcon in that meta by outplaying Stats, even with the supposed awful Skytoss. There are options there for each side. Now we have a much, much worse PvZ meta where soO can just get all-inned every single set by Classic and roll the dice wrong more times than not. but we wont take this thread as an opportunity to whine about something dat doesnt have anything to do with this thread i cant online 24/7 to shut down both you guys everything freaking time dudes jeezzz I’m not really sure why you have to be online 24/7 to respond to a post that’s a direct response to someone specifically talking about PvZ within this thread but OK Like you can just ignore it, it’s OK. We don’t really need you manning the Internet fort 24/7 ‘Oh I could shut you down if I tried, instead I’ll make this snarky post taking as many words and as much effort as any kind of rebuttal’ | ||
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 11 2019 05:39 renaissanceMAN wrote: Show nested quote + On June 11 2019 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: On June 11 2019 04:57 renaissanceMAN wrote: On June 11 2019 04:39 Charoisaur wrote: I think Viking + 5 hp would fix the matchup and save esports are you david kim Is bunker being changed again? Anyways, are we just looking for ways to make the match-ups more *fun*? Because that's subjective, and the game is already incredibly balanced at high level play: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ and if you're in lower level play, then there are other things one can focus on to improve. I mean, people are throwing some ideas out that definitely feel more 'fun' than necessarily game-fixing, but regardless of that, it's hard to judge the game based on a single source of information (even if that source is a particularly good one). How would you explain pros who are openly saying that PvZ is broken and there was only a single Terran in the RO8 based on that chart? (definitely not trying to argue how good/bad Aligulac is, just playing devil's advocate) the wasp prism is just another "mothership core".took them some years to figure out since there was no MC protoss got a late ass meta advantage in legacy of da void because.... again there was no MC so yeah thats all about the current state of protoss ,nothing wrong with warp prism but i dont think i want to see another 2 base all in fest in the next season so some slight defense buffs would help this shitty meta | ||
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 12 2019 10:34 Wombat_NI wrote: Show nested quote + On June 12 2019 10:16 seemsgood wrote: On June 12 2019 08:56 BerserkSword wrote: On June 10 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote: - return the siege mode upgrade - increase the interference matrix cost to 75 Boom! PvT becomes somewhat playable. going to add to this: - some kind of nerf to widow mines. The ability of a 75/25 reactor unit to either kill double digit workers or kill/maim the most expensive units in the game is ridiculous - battlecruiser nerf. Let's be real here. Battlecruisers are broken in TvP. Protoss has no counter play against them thanks to the godly triad of yamato/tactical jump/raw pound-for-pound strength. Tempests are not a viable answer as they cannot engage battlecruisers directly, cannot abuse their range t hanks to tactical jump, and cannot challenge a base trade initiated by battlecruisers which have far greater dps and map presence. Void rays are arguably the worst unit in the game and cannot trade well thanks to yamato + tj anyway. lolstalkers - marauder nerf. The ability of marauders to threaten and trade with every protoss ground unit in the game, even zealots, is absurd On June 12 2019 08:30 Cyro wrote: On June 12 2019 07:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63% Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real. The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates. Those issues also exist in other matchups as well. For example, lategame ZvP is so disgustingly Z favored that it's very difficult to find even a single game of it in 2019. Tournament viewers don't see that directly so they place the blame entirely on the P earlygame when it's only a single piece of the puzzle - Protoss were doing these all-ins literally every game for months even when it was only winning 45% of the time because even that was better than the alternative. It's a "don't let them get there" matchup all over again with zerg on the other side of it now. The main changes that pushed it there were the several nerfs to carriers, nerf to tempest and feedback nerf. great post. I would like to add that it was just not Blizzard nerfing Protoss late game into oblivion - it was also Blizzard nerfing zerg defensive capability in the form of queen and creep. If protoss late game is helpless, and zerg early-mid game is nerfed, what does anyone expect would happen? Protoss players would obviously try to end the game before the untouchable infestor/viper compositions come out. That's why you see protoss players busting out the cheese and myriad of timings. And now people are looking for scapegoats like the warp prism, which has been the same and nobody complained about until Blizzard did their unnecessary tinkering. On June 12 2019 09:22 Wombat_NI wrote: On June 12 2019 09:07 terribleplayer1 wrote: On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63% Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real. Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea. I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals. /s ( of course) Aligulac can't be taken seriously for "pro gaming" winrates, most of the games registered are not from pro gamer vs pro gamer, PvZ winrates are probably around 60-65% for Protoss in KR, and PvT around 55%~ , and that's with twice as many protoss at least than zergs/terrans in the later stages of tournaments. But yes Zerg is favoured on late game, and maybe TOO favoured, it's hard to tell when they all die to 2 base timings. If Terran are using mech in Korean tournaments more against Protoss than Protoss are playing for the late game using any style, probably all you need to know. They’re not stupid, they practice with people, they ladder. It’s not really ‘hard to tell’, Protoss is fucked if they try to go toe to toe with Zerg in lategame. Previously Stargate harassment to keep the Zerg eco in check, while building a core of Robo units and Templar, and then the lategame transition is to use your Stargates again for Carriers There’s a flow there that makes sense, that’s how you go toe to toe with a Zerg ‘straight up’ Now Carriers are worse and feedback is worse at killing casters. So you have worse Carriers, a worse counter to viper pulls and infestors, and (solely referring to the lategame) you have nothing that is actually better than before. That flow just doesn’t work anymore, it can’t work, the fact that the best Protoss players in the world don’t even try to throw in a lategame focused game even in a Bo5 is probably saying something. Serral can win a Blizzcon in that meta by outplaying Stats, even with the supposed awful Skytoss. There are options there for each side. Now we have a much, much worse PvZ meta where soO can just get all-inned every single set by Classic and roll the dice wrong more times than not. but we wont take this thread as an opportunity to whine about something dat doesnt have anything to do with this thread i cant online 24/7 to shut down both you guys everything freaking time dudes jeezzz I’m not really sure why you have to be online 24/7 to respond to a post that’s a direct response to someone specifically talking about PvZ within this thread but OK Like you can just ignore it, it’s OK. We don’t really need you manning the Internet fort 24/7 ‘Oh I could shut you down if I tried, instead I’ll make this snarky post taking as many words and as much effort as any kind of rebuttal’ dont get me wrong i wont harrass you i just want to talk normally but may be next time when you talk dat shit again,something dat i could not find in the deepest of the whiniest place on earth(i mean you fucking battle.net forum) User was temp banned for this post. | ||
renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On June 12 2019 11:12 seemsgood wrote: Show nested quote + On June 11 2019 05:39 renaissanceMAN wrote: On June 11 2019 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: On June 11 2019 04:57 renaissanceMAN wrote: On June 11 2019 04:39 Charoisaur wrote: I think Viking + 5 hp would fix the matchup and save esports are you david kim Is bunker being changed again? Anyways, are we just looking for ways to make the match-ups more *fun*? Because that's subjective, and the game is already incredibly balanced at high level play: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ and if you're in lower level play, then there are other things one can focus on to improve. I mean, people are throwing some ideas out that definitely feel more 'fun' than necessarily game-fixing, but regardless of that, it's hard to judge the game based on a single source of information (even if that source is a particularly good one). How would you explain pros who are openly saying that PvZ is broken and there was only a single Terran in the RO8 based on that chart? (definitely not trying to argue how good/bad Aligulac is, just playing devil's advocate) the wasp prism is just another "mothership core".took them some years to figure out since there was no MC protoss got a late ass meta advantage in legacy of da void because.... again there was no MC so yeah thats all about the current state of protoss ,nothing wrong with warp prism but i dont think i want to see another 2 base all in fest in the next season so some slight defense buffs would help this shitty meta Maybe slightly reduced range for WP and slight shield damage for Cyclone—at least then the Cyclone can serve as a slightly more sturdy unit against early aggression & defend WP? Just spitballing. | ||
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