I'm very much aware that this will probably be disregarded, but thought I'll give it a try anyway.
1) Slight HP Buff to the Siege Tank in Tank mode
Similar to the Hellion/Hellbat, it would only make sense if the tank is given an hp buff in its less vulnerable state (aka Tank Mode). This would help Terran to defend early aggression from Protoss (Blink Stalkers, Warp Prism Pressure) by making Tanks more durable. On the other hand, this would hardly affect TvZ at all, since unsieged Tanks never really played a significant role there due to the plethora of counters available.
2) Making Warp Ins via Warp Prism require energy
By limiting the number of warp ins available per Warp Prism (25 energy per warp in would equal 8 units max, 20 would equal 10 etc.) it would become what it was originally intended to be: a tool for harassment rather than for warping in entire armies. Additionally, the time period between each harassment would be drastically increased, since waiting until enough energy has been replenished would become a necessity. This would allow new methods of counterplay (e.g. EMPs) as well. The Warp Prism strength in PvP and PvZ would be weakend, too, so one has to keep a close eye on that.
3) Thor's Targeting Priority in High Impact Payload Mode
This is more of a QOL change than an actual balance suggestion. Thors have become a useful tool in defending Carriers due to their superior range. When in High Impact Payload Mode they still prioritize to attack Interceptors rather than the Carrier, which makes little to no sense. Considering Carriers require barely any focus during a battle, it would only be fair, if Thors would require a similar level of attention.
I'm gonna be a discording voice, but I really don't think pvt is that bad, a small balance change, probably to the warp prison, should be enough. Late game tvp seem to be getting better just with terran re-getting use to it.
Really love the idea of making the warp prism require energy. Allows you to reinforce some pushes and keep timing attacks strong or do harassments, but you won't be able to completely negate defenders advantage or warp like 20 zealots into an enemy base all at once. (Unless you want to buy more than one warp prism! which is pretty cool)
On June 10 2019 21:58 DSh1 wrote: Regarding Warp Prisms: I didn't know it was not intended for reinforcing armies. I thought this was primarily the purpose as opposed to harassment.
On June 10 2019 22:05 Nakajin wrote: I'm gonna be a discording voice, but I really don't think pvt is that bad, a small balance change, probably to the warp prison, should be enough. Late game tvp seem to be getting better just with terran re-getting use to it.
zvp is the big problem right now imo.
IMO the issue in ZvP is easier to see than the one in PvT.
To the OP - I don't like any of the solutions as if you nerf WP this much, then you need to rebalance the lategame power of warp ins when Protoss now needs pylon + gateway to properly reinforce which means your units need to walk which means they should be stronger as they're not the strongest currently(because of the close warp ins) (IMO).
On June 10 2019 22:28 Pandain wrote: Really love the idea of making the warp prism require energy. Allows you to reinforce some pushes and keep timing attacks strong or do harassments, but you won't be able to completely negate defenders advantage or warp like 20 zealots into an enemy base all at once. (Unless you want to buy more than one warp prism! which is pretty cool)
Warp prism nerf - pick up cooldown, warp in cooldown or energy as you suggested
Recall nerf - Increase cooldown so protoss can recall only 1-2 per game. They need to be punished when out of position, as the other races are. In this case they would only use recall under extreme circumstances
My reasoning here is that everything protoss has theoretically has a counterplay (although it seems to me like the lategame terran army is much harder to control and requires immaculate micro and almost no mistakes to beat storm tempest). But prism and recall are just straight up unfair. Because of them, protoss can take many more risks without a fear they would be punished. You move out and dont scount the terran drop? Just recall. You expect the zerg to attack your 4th and instead he goes into your natural? No problem, just recall. And prism is even worse...
+ maybe buff roaches against toss a bit more? Cause PvZ is the real problem right now, not PvT.
On June 10 2019 23:46 freelifeffs wrote: i appreciate your effort but priority should hands down be on pvz for now. the matchup is completely broken.
I feel like people who keep talking about opnly one of the matchups being broken are missing the fact that the root issue is that Protoss is too strong--the details matter in each matchup yes, but at the end of the day the race is out-performing both Z and T.
For PvZ i can say that Spine Crawler is kinda weak compared to Spore Crawler. It could be just a little bit stronger. And it would help a lot against Protoss and Zerg timing pushes. For Terran i don't know But i can offer to buff Colossus a bit against non-light-armored units and nerf anti-light-armor damage and nerf Zealot's charge damage and maybe Immortal's health a bit.
On June 10 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote: - return the siege mode upgrade - increase the interference matrix cost to 75 Boom! PvT becomes somewhat playable.
How does this help the underrepresentation of Terran in tournaments exactly? There will be even less of them?
On June 10 2019 23:41 MarianoSC2 wrote: Warp prism nerf - pick up cooldown, warp in cooldown or energy as you suggested
Recall nerf - Increase cooldown so protoss can recall only 1-2 per game. They need to be punished when out of position, as the other races are. In this case they would only use recall under extreme circumstances
My reasoning here is that everything protoss has theoretically has a counterplay (although it seems to me like the lategame terran army is much harder to control and requires immaculate micro and almost no mistakes to beat storm tempest). But prism and recall are just straight up unfair. Because of them, protoss can take many more risks without a fear they would be punished. You move out and dont scount the terran drop? Just recall. You expect the zerg to attack your 4th and instead he goes into your natural? No problem, just recall. And prism is even worse...
+ maybe buff roaches against toss a bit more? Cause PvZ is the real problem right now, not PvT.
The recall is needed because Protoss doesn't have a retreat option as both races have faster units than they have. This was the biggest issue of WoL PvZ(once on creep you're doing it and you can\t retreat) and this would be the issue with harsh limit on recalls.
The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance is based around WP.
So, either you can nerf these and then buff P gateway units(yes, you read it correctly), or you can come up with something else. The easier nerf at the moment is to make the pick up range of WP a research. BOOM, all the robo timings are nerfed while it doesn't limit anything else later on. (Rotti idea BTW)
Or, as you pointed out, there can be a buff to the Roach unit. For example an upgrade to let them shoot into the air so they can swarm at the WP and kill it. Or something similar.
PvT has an issue as we just saw 3 top tier tournaments in a row without proper Terran representation. The issue there just isn't screaming loudly as the WP and robo in PvZ does. We can blame the old map pool(which was very anti terran), but we don't know yet how the new map pool will be played and, honestly, we can't wait for very long, as there are not that many T tournaments to be coming. And no offense to Olimoleyleague, but I believe everyone saves their best for GSL Code S, IEM or GSL ST and the fact all these tournaments are now in despair of any race except Protoss(And Zerg in case of IEM) is just funny.
Yes, let's fix PvZ first, because we can easily identify the issue, but let's hope Blizzard has the data to fix PvT too, because it isn't filling people with optimism(BTW really, check the old map pool and its WR, you will be surprised). It doesn't help that many go with "Maru was winning, Terran is fine" which wasn't helping back then "When Mvp was winning, Terran was fine" either. And we all know it wasn't fine back then, proven with the epic GG of "imba imba imba". And it doesn't seem fine now, but obviously we are just waiting for the imba imba imba gg, because Maru was winning, everything's fine. Also WESG, let's not forget WESG with its qualifiers from the November 2018, very actual to the 2019 situation. (I believe I covered every excuse for PvT except Protoss players are simply that good, gid good, which applies to PvZ as well )
On June 10 2019 23:41 MarianoSC2 wrote: Warp prism nerf - pick up cooldown, warp in cooldown or energy as you suggested
Recall nerf - Increase cooldown so protoss can recall only 1-2 per game. They need to be punished when out of position, as the other races are. In this case they would only use recall under extreme circumstances
My reasoning here is that everything protoss has theoretically has a counterplay (although it seems to me like the lategame terran army is much harder to control and requires immaculate micro and almost no mistakes to beat storm tempest). But prism and recall are just straight up unfair. Because of them, protoss can take many more risks without a fear they would be punished. You move out and dont scount the terran drop? Just recall. You expect the zerg to attack your 4th and instead he goes into your natural? No problem, just recall. And prism is even worse...
+ maybe buff roaches against toss a bit more? Cause PvZ is the real problem right now, not PvT.
The recall is needed because Protoss doesn't have a retreat option as both races have faster units than they have. This was the biggest issue of WoL PvZ(once on creep you're doing it and you can\t retreat) and this would be the issue with harsh limit on recalls.
The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance is based around WP.
So, either you can nerf these and then buff P gateway units(yes, you read it correctly), or you can come up with something else. The easier nerf at the moment is to make the pick up range of WP a research. BOOM, all the robo timings are nerfed while it doesn't limit anything else later on. (Rotti idea BTW)
Or, as you pointed out, there can be a buff to the Roach unit. For example an upgrade to let them shoot into the air so they can swarm at the WP and kill it. Or something similar.
PvT has an issue as we just saw 3 top tier tournaments in a row without proper Terran representation. The issue there just isn't screaming loudly as the WP and robo in PvZ does. We can blame the old map pool(which was very anti terran), but we don't know yet how the new map pool will be played and, honestly, we can't wait for very long, as there are not that many T tournaments to be coming. And no offense to Olimoleyleague, but I believe everyone saves their best for GSL Code S, IEM or GSL ST and the fact all these tournaments are now in despair of any race except Protoss(And Zerg in case of IEM) is just funny.
Yes, let's fix PvZ first, because we can easily identify the issue, but let's hope Blizzard has the data to fix PvT too, because it isn't filling people with optimism(BTW really, check the old map pool and its WR, you will be surprised). It doesn't help that many go with "Maru was winning, Terran is fine" which wasn't helping back then "When Mvp was winning, Terran was fine" either. And we all know it wasn't fine back then, proven with the epic GG of "imba imba imba". And it doesn't seem fine now, but obviously we are just waiting for the imba imba imba gg, because Maru was winning, everything's fine. Also WESG, let's not forget WESG with its qualifiers from the November 2018, very actual to the 2019 situation. (I believe I covered every excuse for PvT except Protoss players are simply that good, gid good, which applies to PvZ as well )
People don't like to acquiesce when the better player is one that isn't their race.
On June 10 2019 21:53 SC2RandomPotatoe wrote: I'm very much aware that this will probably be disregarded, but thought I'll give it a try anyway.
1) Slight HP Buff to the Siege Tank in Tank mode
Similar to the Hellion/Hellbat, it would only make sense if the tank is given an hp buff in its less vulnerable state (aka Tank Mode). This would help Terran to defend early aggression from Protoss (Blink Stalkers, Warp Prism Pressure) by making Tanks more durable. On the other hand, this would hardly affect TvZ at all, since unsieged Tanks never really played a significant role there due to the plethora of counters available.
2) Making Warp Ins via Warp Prism require energy
By limiting the number of warp ins available per Warp Prism (25 energy per warp in would equal 8 units max, 20 would equal 10 etc.) it would become what it was originally intended to be: a tool for harassment rather than for warping in entire armies. Additionally, the time period between each harassment would be drastically increased, since waiting until enough energy has been replenished would become a necessity. This would allow new methods of counterplay (e.g. EMPs) as well. The Warp Prism strength in PvP and PvZ would be weakend, too, so one has to keep a close eye on that.
3) Thor's Targeting Priority in High Impact Payload Mode
This is more of a QOL change than an actual balance suggestion. Thors have become a useful tool in defending Carriers due to their superior range. When in High Impact Payload Mode they still prioritize to attack Interceptors rather than the Carrier, which makes little to no sense. Considering Carriers require barely any focus during a battle, it would only be fair, if Thors would require a similar level of attention.
Thank you for reading!
The easiest way to fix PvsT without affecting the other matchups is to add a +shield damage to one of the other Terran units. There is already +shield damage for Widow Mines.
I leave it to Blizzard to pick a Terran unit to add additional +shield damage too. This would leave TvsZ unchanged (and even TvsT unchanged).
On June 10 2019 23:46 freelifeffs wrote: i appreciate your effort but priority should hands down be on pvz for now. the matchup is completely broken.
I feel like people who keep talking about opnly one of the matchups being broken are missing the fact that the root issue is that Protoss is too strong--the details matter in each matchup yes, but at the end of the day the race is out-performing both Z and T.
Yes, I agree with this. It's reflected in the recent Korean tournaments such as the GSL Super Tournament and this GSL.
On June 10 2019 23:41 MarianoSC2 wrote: Warp prism nerf - pick up cooldown, warp in cooldown or energy as you suggested
Recall nerf - Increase cooldown so protoss can recall only 1-2 per game. They need to be punished when out of position, as the other races are. In this case they would only use recall under extreme circumstances
My reasoning here is that everything protoss has theoretically has a counterplay (although it seems to me like the lategame terran army is much harder to control and requires immaculate micro and almost no mistakes to beat storm tempest). But prism and recall are just straight up unfair. Because of them, protoss can take many more risks without a fear they would be punished. You move out and dont scount the terran drop? Just recall. You expect the zerg to attack your 4th and instead he goes into your natural? No problem, just recall. And prism is even worse...
+ maybe buff roaches against toss a bit more? Cause PvZ is the real problem right now, not PvT.
The recall is needed because Protoss doesn't have a retreat option as both races have faster units than they have. This was the biggest issue of WoL PvZ(once on creep you're doing it and you can\t retreat) and this would be the issue with harsh limit on recalls.
The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance is based around WP.
So, either you can nerf these and then buff P gateway units(yes, you read it correctly), or you can come up with something else. The easier nerf at the moment is to make the pick up range of WP a research. BOOM, all the robo timings are nerfed while it doesn't limit anything else later on. (Rotti idea BTW)
Or, as you pointed out, there can be a buff to the Roach unit. For example an upgrade to let them shoot into the air so they can swarm at the WP and kill it. Or something similar.
PvT has an issue as we just saw 3 top tier tournaments in a row without proper Terran representation. The issue there just isn't screaming loudly as the WP and robo in PvZ does. We can blame the old map pool(which was very anti terran), but we don't know yet how the new map pool will be played and, honestly, we can't wait for very long, as there are not that many T tournaments to be coming. And no offense to Olimoleyleague, but I believe everyone saves their best for GSL Code S, IEM or GSL ST and the fact all these tournaments are now in despair of any race except Protoss(And Zerg in case of IEM) is just funny.
Yes, let's fix PvZ first, because we can easily identify the issue, but let's hope Blizzard has the data to fix PvT too, because it isn't filling people with optimism(BTW really, check the old map pool and its WR, you will be surprised). It doesn't help that many go with "Maru was winning, Terran is fine" which wasn't helping back then "When Mvp was winning, Terran was fine" either. And we all know it wasn't fine back then, proven with the epic GG of "imba imba imba". And it doesn't seem fine now, but obviously we are just waiting for the imba imba imba gg, because Maru was winning, everything's fine. Also WESG, let's not forget WESG with its qualifiers from the November 2018, very actual to the 2019 situation. (I believe I covered every excuse for PvT except Protoss players are simply that good, gid good, which applies to PvZ as well )
Regarding the tank and thor buff, I don't agree with those.
Sure some kind of warptech is required but the current WP is overpowered and need tuning.
I don't think the OP suggestion is that bad, depending on the cost of warpins maybe the energy will just be a problem when the push goes on forever or the frontal attack + in base warpin goes over and over.
I loved Rottis idea that you shared but also came up with this based on what you said about giving roaches air attack.
How about the warpprism needs to "land" on ground to get into phasing mode, and while being in phasing mode it can be attack by ground? Seems like a small change that could actually help a lot, it would also take space then ofc.
On June 10 2019 21:53 SC2RandomPotatoe wrote: I'm very much aware that this will probably be disregarded, but thought I'll give it a try anyway.
1) Slight HP Buff to the Siege Tank in Tank mode
Similar to the Hellion/Hellbat, it would only make sense if the tank is given an hp buff in its less vulnerable state (aka Tank Mode). This would help Terran to defend early aggression from Protoss (Blink Stalkers, Warp Prism Pressure) by making Tanks more durable. On the other hand, this would hardly affect TvZ at all, since unsieged Tanks never really played a significant role there due to the plethora of counters available.
2) Making Warp Ins via Warp Prism require energy
By limiting the number of warp ins available per Warp Prism (25 energy per warp in would equal 8 units max, 20 would equal 10 etc.) it would become what it was originally intended to be: a tool for harassment rather than for warping in entire armies. Additionally, the time period between each harassment would be drastically increased, since waiting until enough energy has been replenished would become a necessity. This would allow new methods of counterplay (e.g. EMPs) as well. The Warp Prism strength in PvP and PvZ would be weakend, too, so one has to keep a close eye on that.
3) Thor's Targeting Priority in High Impact Payload Mode
This is more of a QOL change than an actual balance suggestion. Thors have become a useful tool in defending Carriers due to their superior range. When in High Impact Payload Mode they still prioritize to attack Interceptors rather than the Carrier, which makes little to no sense. Considering Carriers require barely any focus during a battle, it would only be fair, if Thors would require a similar level of attention.
Thank you for reading!
The easiest way to fix PvsT without affecting the other matchups is to add a +shield damage to one of the other Terran units. There is already +shield damage for Widow Mines.
I leave it to Blizzard to pick a Terran unit to add additional +shield damage too. This would leave TvsZ unchanged (and even TvsT unchanged).
What if the Thor's ground attack + single target air attack did shield damage?
On June 10 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote: - return the siege mode upgrade - increase the interference matrix cost to 75 Boom! PvT becomes somewhat playable.
How does this help the underrepresentation of Terran in tournaments exactly? There will be even less of them?
On June 10 2019 23:41 MarianoSC2 wrote: Warp prism nerf - pick up cooldown, warp in cooldown or energy as you suggested
Recall nerf - Increase cooldown so protoss can recall only 1-2 per game. They need to be punished when out of position, as the other races are. In this case they would only use recall under extreme circumstances
My reasoning here is that everything protoss has theoretically has a counterplay (although it seems to me like the lategame terran army is much harder to control and requires immaculate micro and almost no mistakes to beat storm tempest). But prism and recall are just straight up unfair. Because of them, protoss can take many more risks without a fear they would be punished. You move out and dont scount the terran drop? Just recall. You expect the zerg to attack your 4th and instead he goes into your natural? No problem, just recall. And prism is even worse...
+ maybe buff roaches against toss a bit more? Cause PvZ is the real problem right now, not PvT.
The recall is needed because Protoss doesn't have a retreat option as both races have faster units than they have. This was the biggest issue of WoL PvZ(once on creep you're doing it and you can\t retreat) and this would be the issue with harsh limit on recalls.
The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance is based around WP.
So, either you can nerf these and then buff P gateway units(yes, you read it correctly), or you can come up with something else. The easier nerf at the moment is to make the pick up range of WP a research. BOOM, all the robo timings are nerfed while it doesn't limit anything else later on. (Rotti idea BTW)
Or, as you pointed out, there can be a buff to the Roach unit. For example an upgrade to let them shoot into the air so they can swarm at the WP and kill it. Or something similar.
PvT has an issue as we just saw 3 top tier tournaments in a row without proper Terran representation. The issue there just isn't screaming loudly as the WP and robo in PvZ does. We can blame the old map pool(which was very anti terran), but we don't know yet how the new map pool will be played and, honestly, we can't wait for very long, as there are not that many T tournaments to be coming. And no offense to Olimoleyleague, but I believe everyone saves their best for GSL Code S, IEM or GSL ST and the fact all these tournaments are now in despair of any race except Protoss(And Zerg in case of IEM) is just funny.
Yes, let's fix PvZ first, because we can easily identify the issue, but let's hope Blizzard has the data to fix PvT too, because it isn't filling people with optimism(BTW really, check the old map pool and its WR, you will be surprised). It doesn't help that many go with "Maru was winning, Terran is fine" which wasn't helping back then "When Mvp was winning, Terran was fine" either. And we all know it wasn't fine back then, proven with the epic GG of "imba imba imba". And it doesn't seem fine now, but obviously we are just waiting for the imba imba imba gg, because Maru was winning, everything's fine. Also WESG, let's not forget WESG with its qualifiers from the November 2018, very actual to the 2019 situation. (I believe I covered every excuse for PvT except Protoss players are simply that good, gid good, which applies to PvZ as well )
Regarding the tank and thor buff, I don't agree with those.
Sure some kind of warptech is required but the current WP is overpowered and need tuning.
I don't think the OP suggestion is that bad, depending on the cost of warpins maybe the energy will just be a problem when the push goes on forever or the frontal attack + in base warpin goes over and over.
I loved Rottis idea that you shared but also came up with this based on what you said about giving roaches air attack.
How about the warpprism needs to "land" on ground to get into phasing mode, and while being in phasing mode it can be attack by ground? Seems like a small change that could actually help a lot, it would also take space then ofc.
that's actually a really intriguing idea--you could have strategies related to flying in, blocking a space, then warping in (causing me a headache just thinking about it, but cool nonetheless)
On June 11 2019 00:34 skdsk wrote: i just dont understand why they keep refusing to fix unusable terran units, like siege tank tankmode or landed viking.
What's wrong with the landed viking? A single viking in the mineral line can rack up probe kills if unattended...
On June 11 2019 00:34 skdsk wrote: i just dont understand why they keep refusing to fix unusable terran units, like siege tank tankmode or landed viking.
What's wrong with the landed viking? A single viking in the mineral line can rack up probe kills if unattended...
in all seriousness, disregarding all the gutter whine in this thread about matchups, i am personally in favor of removing the landing gimmick for vikings and just letting them shoot down from the air with the same attack they get when landed. i honestly don't think this would break anything and it would make terran builds more flexible as the viking would be easier to get value from
On June 11 2019 00:34 skdsk wrote: i just dont understand why they keep refusing to fix unusable terran units, like siege tank tankmode or landed viking.
What's wrong with the landed viking? A single viking in the mineral line can rack up probe kills if unattended...
in all seriousness, disregarding all the gutter whine in this thread about matchups, i am personally in favor of removing the landing gimmick for vikings and just letting them shoot down from the air with the same attack they get when landed. i honestly don't think this would break anything and it would make terran builds more flexible as the viking would be easier to get value from
It would be insane, viking would become better mutalisk, air control in tvt would mean being instanly able to snipe tank and you would need archons or a big amount of air unit to beat mass viking in tvp since they destroy stakers and are pretty ok vs pheonix. I mean a viking first build would counter both a stargate opening and most gateway opening.
Viking harrash would also be op, they are just slightly slower than banshee but hit twice as fast and overpower shield bateries on top of killing gateway unit super well and shoting air, a couple of viking can chew down buildings or worker, or even marines.
All the meta would change if they did that one, at least in tvt and tvp
This PvT recorded 53% win rate in season 2, 43% in season 1, below 50% in WCS spring, below 50% in super tournament (I didn’t count qualifiers)
Why do all the suggestions involve nerfing protoss in the matchup when it is clearly not overpowered judging by the numbers? If anything, the number is tilted in terran’s favour (though I think it is balanced) I don’t get why PvT is a tragedy.
If something needs to be fixed it is PvZ. All the recent tournaments record above 50% protoss win rate by a large margin, including super tournament, WCS and GSL.
New balance ideas... Lets vent out our frustrations!
Warp prism Combination of warp prism and immortals is too strong. Main problem is insane pickup range. Instant Reinforcement via Warp prism is also problematic. Map size doesn't apply to protoss reinforcements time. Here it would be interesting to add maybe 30% longer CD on units warped via warp gate compare to regular gateways.
Infestors If you have watched Elazer vs DNS you could clearly see power of infestors in combination with brood lords. Death balls should be avoided. Maybe Fungal Growth should only slow units.
Reactors and techlabs Production building should be able to produce units while reactor or techlab is building. This would greatly help terran in deflecting early game pressure versus MaxPax build
On June 11 2019 00:34 skdsk wrote: i just dont understand why they keep refusing to fix unusable terran units, like siege tank tankmode or landed viking.
What's wrong with the landed viking? A single viking in the mineral line can rack up probe kills if unattended...
in all seriousness, disregarding all the gutter whine in this thread about matchups, i am personally in favor of removing the landing gimmick for vikings and just letting them shoot down from the air with the same attack they get when landed. i honestly don't think this would break anything and it would make terran builds more flexible as the viking would be easier to get value from
It would be insane, viking would become better mutalisk, air control in tvt would mean being instanly able to snipe tank and you would need archons or a big amount of air unit to beat mass viking in tvp since they destroy stakers and are pretty ok vs pheonix. I mean a viking first build would counter both a stargate opening and most gateway opening.
Viking harrash would also be op, they are just slightly slower than banshee but hit twice as fast and overpower shield bateries on top of killing gateway unit super well and shoting air, a couple of viking can chew down buildings or worker, or even marines.
All the meta would change if they did that one, at least in tvt and tvp
Hahahaha I read brickrds post and was like "umm yeah why not", then I read yours.
Lol I'm an idiot, you are spot on, I'm so happy I'm not on the balance team xD
On June 11 2019 00:34 skdsk wrote: i just dont understand why they keep refusing to fix unusable terran units, like siege tank tankmode or landed viking.
What's wrong with the landed viking? A single viking in the mineral line can rack up probe kills if unattended...
in all seriousness, disregarding all the gutter whine in this thread about matchups, i am personally in favor of removing the landing gimmick for vikings and just letting them shoot down from the air with the same attack they get when landed. i honestly don't think this would break anything and it would make terran builds more flexible as the viking would be easier to get value from
It would be insane, viking would become better mutalisk, air control in tvt would mean being instanly able to snipe tank and you would need archons or a big amount of air unit to beat mass viking in tvp since they destroy stakers and are pretty ok vs pheonix. I mean a viking first build would counter both a stargate opening and most gateway opening.
Viking harrash would also be op, they are just slightly slower than banshee but hit twice as fast and overpower shield bateries on top of killing gateway unit super well and shoting air, a couple of viking can chew down buildings or worker, or even marines.
All the meta would change if they did that one, at least in tvt and tvp
Hahahaha I read brickrds post and was like "umm yeah why not", then I read yours.
Lol I'm an idiot, you are spot on, I'm so happy I'm not on the balance team xD
On June 11 2019 01:55 yyltyler wrote: This PvT recorded 53% win rate in season 2, 43% in season 1, below 50% in WCS spring, below 50% in super tournament (I didn’t count qualifiers)
Why do all the suggestions involve nerfing protoss in the matchup when it is clearly not overpowered judging by the numbers? If anything, the number is tilted in terran’s favour (though I think it is balanced) I don’t get why PvT is a tragedy.
If something needs to be fixed it is PvZ. All the recent tournaments record above 50% protoss win rate by a large margin, including super tournament, WCS and GSL.
You can't look at winrates like that. There were 2 terrans in ST one got eliminated right away and Gumiho made it to the end. So the win % might look ok, but that's only because there is such a small sample size.
On June 10 2019 21:53 SC2RandomPotatoe wrote: I'm very much aware that this will probably be disregarded, but thought I'll give it a try anyway.
1) Slight HP Buff to the Siege Tank in Tank mode
Similar to the Hellion/Hellbat, it would only make sense if the tank is given an hp buff in its less vulnerable state (aka Tank Mode). This would help Terran to defend early aggression from Protoss (Blink Stalkers, Warp Prism Pressure) by making Tanks more durable. On the other hand, this would hardly affect TvZ at all, since unsieged Tanks never really played a significant role there due to the plethora of counters available.
2) Making Warp Ins via Warp Prism require energy
By limiting the number of warp ins available per Warp Prism (25 energy per warp in would equal 8 units max, 20 would equal 10 etc.) it would become what it was originally intended to be: a tool for harassment rather than for warping in entire armies. Additionally, the time period between each harassment would be drastically increased, since waiting until enough energy has been replenished would become a necessity. This would allow new methods of counterplay (e.g. EMPs) as well. The Warp Prism strength in PvP and PvZ would be weakend, too, so one has to keep a close eye on that.
3) Thor's Targeting Priority in High Impact Payload Mode
This is more of a QOL change than an actual balance suggestion. Thors have become a useful tool in defending Carriers due to their superior range. When in High Impact Payload Mode they still prioritize to attack Interceptors rather than the Carrier, which makes little to no sense. Considering Carriers require barely any focus during a battle, it would only be fair, if Thors would require a similar level of attention.
Thank you for reading!
The easiest way to fix PvsT without affecting the other matchups is to add a +shield damage to one of the other Terran units. There is already +shield damage for Widow Mines.
I leave it to Blizzard to pick a Terran unit to add additional +shield damage too. This would leave TvsZ unchanged (and even TvsT unchanged).
What if the Thor's ground attack + single target air attack did shield damage?
Definitely, upgrading the Thor attack to include +shield damage would help.
Personally, I think adding a little +shield damage to Banshees would be good because Banshees are so brittle and other than harassing probes, Banshees are pretty bad against Protoss units.
On June 11 2019 01:55 yyltyler wrote: This PvT recorded 53% win rate in season 2, 43% in season 1, below 50% in WCS spring, below 50% in super tournament (I didn’t count qualifiers)
Why do all the suggestions involve nerfing protoss in the matchup when it is clearly not overpowered judging by the numbers? If anything, the number is tilted in terran’s favour (though I think it is balanced) I don’t get why PvT is a tragedy.
If something needs to be fixed it is PvZ. All the recent tournaments record above 50% protoss win rate by a large margin, including super tournament, WCS and GSL.
You can't look at winrates like that. There were 2 terrans in ST one got eliminated right away and Gumiho made it to the end. So the win % might look ok, but that's only because there is such a small sample size.
The other way you can look at the GSL Super Tournament is that it was the first time in the entire history of SC2 and BW that 7 players of one race made it to the round of 8 for a premier Korean tournament.
And we've had BW tournaments for Korean pro players since 1999 or something like that. But for 20 years for BW and SC2, we have never had 7 players of the same race make it to the quarterfinals of a premier Korean tournament.
On June 11 2019 01:55 yyltyler wrote: This PvT recorded 53% win rate in season 2, 43% in season 1, below 50% in WCS spring, below 50% in super tournament (I didn’t count qualifiers)
Why do all the suggestions involve nerfing protoss in the matchup when it is clearly not overpowered judging by the numbers? If anything, the number is tilted in terran’s favour (though I think it is balanced) I don’t get why PvT is a tragedy.
If something needs to be fixed it is PvZ. All the recent tournaments record above 50% protoss win rate by a large margin, including super tournament, WCS and GSL.
RO12 IEM - 1 Terran, eliminated. GSL ST 1T 7P, for the first time in history we broke the record and made a new history record with 7 people of the same race in the RO8. This broke GOMTvT and BLInfestor era. BW included according to many. Code S RO16 - 8P, 4T 4Z. Those are 3 top tournaments with the top players(Except Classic @ IEM) without proper Terran representation. The only saving grace of Terrans was Maru in the Code S and that's not happening either. Maybe that's the reason? 1 or 2 tournaments can be an exception, 3 tournaments? How long will we close eyes?
1, Siege tanks already got damage buff, hp buff and requires no upgrade to be in siege mode. Hellbat/hellion hp, tag change already dumb enough, we dont need more of that. I dont really know how tanks in traveling mode should be more useful than tanks in siege mode vs protoss pressure ... 2, Its warp-in should work similar like a pylon. Bigger power range but longer warpin time. So they cant warpin into your face. Also the pick-up range should be nerfed. 3, Thors are not really good vs carriers anyway.
On June 11 2019 01:55 yyltyler wrote: This PvT recorded 53% win rate in season 2, 43% in season 1, below 50% in WCS spring, below 50% in super tournament (I didn’t count qualifiers)
Why do all the suggestions involve nerfing protoss in the matchup when it is clearly not overpowered judging by the numbers? If anything, the number is tilted in terran’s favour (though I think it is balanced) I don’t get why PvT is a tragedy.
If something needs to be fixed it is PvZ. All the recent tournaments record above 50% protoss win rate by a large margin, including super tournament, WCS and GSL.
RO12 IEM - 1 Terran, eliminated. GSL ST 1T 7P, for the first time in history we broke the record and made a new history record with 7 people of the same race in the RO8. This broke GOMTvT and BLInfestor era. BW included according to many. Code S RO16 - 8P, 4T 4Z. Those are 3 top tournaments with the top players(Except Classic @ IEM) without proper Terran representation. The only saving grace of Terrans was Maru in the Code S and that's not happening either. Maybe that's the reason? 1 or 2 tournaments can be an exception, 3 tournaments? How long will we close eyes?
On June 11 2019 01:55 yyltyler wrote: This PvT recorded 53% win rate in season 2, 43% in season 1, below 50% in WCS spring, below 50% in super tournament (I didn’t count qualifiers)
Why do all the suggestions involve nerfing protoss in the matchup when it is clearly not overpowered judging by the numbers? If anything, the number is tilted in terran’s favour (though I think it is balanced) I don’t get why PvT is a tragedy.
If something needs to be fixed it is PvZ. All the recent tournaments record above 50% protoss win rate by a large margin, including super tournament, WCS and GSL.
RO12 IEM - 1 Terran, eliminated. GSL ST 1T 7P, for the first time in history we broke the record and made a new history record with 7 people of the same race in the RO8. This broke GOMTvT and BLInfestor era. BW included according to many. Code S RO16 - 8P, 4T 4Z. Those are 3 top tournaments with the top players(Except Classic @ IEM) without proper Terran representation. The only saving grace of Terrans was Maru in the Code S and that's not happening either. Maybe that's the reason? 1 or 2 tournaments can be an exception, 3 tournaments? How long will we close eyes?
What was the most zergs ever in top8/16?
Looking at purely the Korean tournaments
The current era: ST 2019 1 - Ro16: 9P, 2T, 5Z, Ro8: 7P, 1Z (Note: I think it's worthwhile to point out that a large racial number in a prior round will often follow into the subsequent rounds, so it's not unusual to see a large number of P in the Ro8. However, 7P in a ro8 is quite strange) GSL - Ro16: 8P, 4T, 4Z, Ro8: 5P, 1T, 2Z (For an era where one race is stronger than another, 5 of any race in the Ro8 is quite common, though 8 in the round of 16 was among the higher ones overall, though lower in the bigger imbalanced tournaments)
The purported Z-favoured era (Note: I really don't know when this era started, but whenever it was, it was really quite short, as it lasted from around mid-2012 to early-2013, and then we switched to Heart of the Swarm)
2012 GSL 2 - Ro16: 7P, 7T, 2Z, Ro8: 5P, 3T (This was the season of the famous MVP/Squirtle finals, and it happened right before I think the famous Broodlord/Infestor era, and this season is rather striking when compared to how people tend to remember 2012 as being about the Broodlord/Infestor time)
2012 GSL 5 - Ro16: 2P, 6T, 8Z, Ro8: 1P, 3T, 4Z (This season was the infamous "IMBA, IMBA, IMBA" note from Ryung, and even with a ZvZ finals, it still only had 4Z in the ro8, though it did have 8Z in the ro16) 2012 Blizzard Cup - Ro10: 4P, 1T, 5Z, Ro6: 1P, 5Z (This tournament was a final of finals of sort, and it also had a strange Ro10, which was rarely, if ever, seen in a premier tournament ever again) 2013 GSL 1 - Ro16: 3P, 5T, 8Z, Ro8: 2P, 2T, 2Z (Again, despite having a ZvZ finals, it had relatively fewer Zs in the Ro8/16 compared to more imbalanced seasons. Also, this was the final GSL before the HotS switch)
The infamous GOMTvT era 2011 GSL January - Ro16: 4P, 9T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 4T, 2Z (Interestingly, despite having 9T in the ro16, there were only 4T in the ro8. However, there were 3T in the ro4, and it was a TvT finals) 2011 GSL ST - Ro16: 1P, 9T, 6Z, Ro8: 1P, 6T, 1Z (This tournament tied for the most T in the ro8. Also, of note is this had 4T in the Ro4) 2011 GSL August - Ro16: 4P, 9T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 5T, 1Z (This tournament again had a TvT finals) 2011 GSL October - Ro16: 1P, 10T, 5Z, Ro8: 6T, 2Z (This was one of the few tournaments noted in this list where one race did not show up in the ro8, the other one being in 2012 season 2. Also of note, this was the largest number of a single racial group I found in the ro16, and it also had 6T in the ro8. Once more, it had 4T from the ro4 on) 2011 GSL November - Ro16: 5P, 8T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 5T, 1Z (Balance had obviously shifted at this point, and there were more races in the Ro8/Ro4, despite the overrepresentation of T in the Ro16/8).
This does not look at all Korean tournaments (and it ignores foreign tournaments), and it focuses primarily on either the biggest offenders of racial representation or during the eras of known imbalance. I didn't find any really large groups during the 2014 GSLs, and aside from this year, LotV has been remarkably balanced compared to prior versions.
Looking at this, it seems that the current GSL season, although it overrepresents P in the Ro16/8, 8/5 respectively are among the lower numbers of the overrepresented seasons, though of course, it is still in a category of overrepresentation. The outlier seems to be 2019 GSL ST 1, with of course, the 7P in the ro8. During a time of imbalance, it's not unusual to see a similar number, and I'm not sure if 1 more person over the 6 that we've seen in the past is really that huge. It might be, but it might not be.
The other note on this is that the biggest overall time of overrepresentation was in 2011 GSL October, with 10T in the ro16, which we have never seen before or since and the 6T in the ro8, which even this season does not surpass. Additionally, this was about almost a full year's worth of tournaments in the TvT era, whereas we have only seen 2 tournaments that were like this. In terms of eras of overrepresentation, this does count among them, but we'd need more tournaments to conclusively tell that it was worse/better compared to prior times.
TL;DR: 2019 ST with 7P was definitely bad, but the GSL season is relatively tame compared to prior times of overrepresentation. However, this past season does indeed fall into the category of having one racial group overrepresented over the other.
On June 11 2019 04:39 Charoisaur wrote: I think Viking + 5 hp would fix the matchup and save esports
are you david kim
Is bunker being changed again?
Anyways, are we just looking for ways to make the match-ups more *fun*? Because that's subjective, and the game is already incredibly balanced at high level play: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ and if you're in lower level play, then there are other things one can focus on to improve.
On June 11 2019 04:39 Charoisaur wrote: I think Viking + 5 hp would fix the matchup and save esports
are you david kim
Is bunker being changed again?
Anyways, are we just looking for ways to make the match-ups more *fun*? Because that's subjective, and the game is already incredibly balanced at high level play: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ and if you're in lower level play, then there are other things one can focus on to improve.
I mean, people are throwing some ideas out that definitely feel more 'fun' than necessarily game-fixing, but regardless of that, it's hard to judge the game based on a single source of information (even if that source is a particularly good one).
How would you explain pros who are openly saying that PvZ is broken and there was only a single Terran in the RO8 based on that chart?
(definitely not trying to argue how good/bad Aligulac is, just playing devil's advocate)
On June 11 2019 04:39 Charoisaur wrote: I think Viking + 5 hp would fix the matchup and save esports
are you david kim
Is bunker being changed again?
Anyways, are we just looking for ways to make the match-ups more *fun*? Because that's subjective, and the game is already incredibly balanced at high level play: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ and if you're in lower level play, then there are other things one can focus on to improve.
I mean, people are throwing some ideas out that definitely feel more 'fun' than necessarily game-fixing, but regardless of that, it's hard to judge the game based on a single source of information (even if that source is a particularly good one).
How would you explain pros who are openly saying that PvZ is broken and there was only a single Terran in the RO8 based on that chart?
(definitely not trying to argue how good/bad Aligulac is, just playing devil's advocate)
Of course more data and more sources is great, but anecdotal evidence isn't. I think compiling win/loss data at the pro level- rather than appealing to a few complaints- would make for a much stronger argument. There's variation to consider as well. For example, if several recent top tier tournaments had a reasonably balanced distribution of races but one or two of those tournaments had an underrepresented race, that may not be a big deal. It might, but it might not.
On topic though: Warp prism energy would be way too limiting imo. They can't heal like medivacs can, so they need to still have some useful functionality.
PvZ is a bigger issue than PvT but it seems like it's a similar issue- Protoss has a lot of ways to straight up just get the W, and they're hard to scout accurately and then still hard to hold.
Seeing the way that Stats is getting tooled over lately, it's easy to understand why the aggressive Protoss are playing the way they do. If you want to fix PvX, you need to incentive longer games and not just nerf the all-ins. This is kind of what Blizzard seemed to be trying to do with the most recent Immortal changes.
In the current state of the game, you are getting hit by warp prism harass fairly early which there's no realistic chance of shutting down because a warp prism + [matchupUnit] is more mobile and effective than whatever units Terran and Zerg are fielding at that point. Battlemech is getting popular because Cyclones can tell a prism to fuck off for a minute. This pressure is extremely consistent and transitions smoothly into whatever attack Protoss wants to do, which could be any number of lethal things depending on the matchup. Zest's stream is a clinic.
Oracles and Phoenix are highly mobile harassers, but they can't outmaneuver and kill your defensive units while you're in the process of defending without taking damage.
Personally I think the warp prism pickup distance should be reduced back to pre-changes, maybe a small speed nerf, and maybe increasing the build time. Reduce the P players' ability to globetrot around what should be a competent defense, decrease the margin of error for controlling the prism, and increase the punishment for losing it by taking time from the robo.
On June 10 2019 21:53 SC2RandomPotatoe wrote: I'm very much aware that this will probably be disregarded, but thought I'll give it a try anyway.
1) Slight HP Buff to the Siege Tank in Tank mode
Similar to the Hellion/Hellbat, it would only make sense if the tank is given an hp buff in its less vulnerable state (aka Tank Mode). This would help Terran to defend early aggression from Protoss (Blink Stalkers, Warp Prism Pressure) by making Tanks more durable. On the other hand, this would hardly affect TvZ at all, since unsieged Tanks never really played a significant role there due to the plethora of counters available.
2) Making Warp Ins via Warp Prism require energy
By limiting the number of warp ins available per Warp Prism (25 energy per warp in would equal 8 units max, 20 would equal 10 etc.) it would become what it was originally intended to be: a tool for harassment rather than for warping in entire armies. Additionally, the time period between each harassment would be drastically increased, since waiting until enough energy has been replenished would become a necessity. This would allow new methods of counterplay (e.g. EMPs) as well. The Warp Prism strength in PvP and PvZ would be weakend, too, so one has to keep a close eye on that.
3) Thor's Targeting Priority in High Impact Payload Mode
This is more of a QOL change than an actual balance suggestion. Thors have become a useful tool in defending Carriers due to their superior range. When in High Impact Payload Mode they still prioritize to attack Interceptors rather than the Carrier, which makes little to no sense. Considering Carriers require barely any focus during a battle, it would only be fair, if Thors would require a similar level of attention.
Thank you for reading!
Hi, I just really hate your second suggestion and here is why: I used to play Protoss. I enjoyed playing Protoss, I now have switched to Zerg. In 7 years I never played Terran for more than ~10 games. I do not enjoy their design, their mechanics, neither their macro nor their micro. But some people do, so it is their main race, because they enjoy it the most. So if you make suggestion 1 and 3 to the race you actually play, then these designs reflect designs you already enjoy, but your suggestion, even if I don't play Protoss mainly these days, would make me never want to play Protoss again, WP with energy would be so cumbersome, it would feel so ... Terran.
On June 11 2019 01:55 yyltyler wrote: This PvT recorded 53% win rate in season 2, 43% in season 1, below 50% in WCS spring, below 50% in super tournament (I didn’t count qualifiers)
Why do all the suggestions involve nerfing protoss in the matchup when it is clearly not overpowered judging by the numbers? If anything, the number is tilted in terran’s favour (though I think it is balanced) I don’t get why PvT is a tragedy.
If something needs to be fixed it is PvZ. All the recent tournaments record above 50% protoss win rate by a large margin, including super tournament, WCS and GSL.
RO12 IEM - 1 Terran, eliminated. GSL ST 1T 7P, for the first time in history we broke the record and made a new history record with 7 people of the same race in the RO8. This broke GOMTvT and BLInfestor era. BW included according to many. Code S RO16 - 8P, 4T 4Z. Those are 3 top tournaments with the top players(Except Classic @ IEM) without proper Terran representation. The only saving grace of Terrans was Maru in the Code S and that's not happening either. Maybe that's the reason? 1 or 2 tournaments can be an exception, 3 tournaments? How long will we close eyes?
The current era: ST 2019 1 - Ro16: 9P, 2T, 5Z, Ro8: 7P, 1Z (Note: I think it's worthwhile to point out that a large racial number in a prior round will often follow into the subsequent rounds, so it's not unusual to see a large number of P in the Ro8. However, 7P in a ro8 is quite strange) GSL - Ro16: 8P, 4T, 4Z, Ro8: 5P, 1T, 2Z (For an era where one race is stronger than another, 5 of any race in the Ro8 is quite common, though 8 in the round of 16 was among the higher ones overall, though lower in the bigger imbalanced tournaments)
The purported Z-favoured era (Note: I really don't know when this era started, but whenever it was, it was really quite short, as it lasted from around mid-2012 to early-2013, and then we switched to Heart of the Swarm)
2012 GSL 2 - Ro16: 7P, 7T, 2Z, Ro8: 5P, 3T (This was the season of the famous MVP/Squirtle finals, and it happened right before I think the famous Broodlord/Infestor era, and this season is rather striking when compared to how people tend to remember 2012 as being about the Broodlord/Infestor time)
2012 GSL 5 - Ro16: 2P, 6T, 8Z, Ro8: 1P, 3T, 4Z (This season was the infamous "IMBA, IMBA, IMBA" note from Ryung, and even with a ZvZ finals, it still only had 4Z in the ro8, though it did have 8Z in the ro16) 2012 Blizzard Cup - Ro10: 4P, 1T, 5Z, Ro6: 1P, 5Z (This tournament was a final of finals of sort, and it also had a strange Ro10, which was rarely, if ever, seen in a premier tournament ever again) 2013 GSL 1 - Ro16: 3P, 5T, 8Z, Ro8: 2P, 2T, 2Z (Again, despite having a ZvZ finals, it had relatively fewer Zs in the Ro8/16 compared to more imbalanced seasons. Also, this was the final GSL before the HotS switch)
The infamous GOMTvT era 2011 GSL January - Ro16: 4P, 9T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 4T, 2Z (Interestingly, despite having 9T in the ro16, there were only 4T in the ro8. However, there were 3T in the ro4, and it was a TvT finals) 2011 GSL ST - Ro16: 1P, 9T, 6Z, Ro8: 1P, 6T, 1Z (This tournament tied for the most T in the ro8. Also, of note is this had 4T in the Ro4) 2011 GSL August - Ro16: 4P, 9T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 5T, 1Z (This tournament again had a TvT finals) 2011 GSL October - Ro16: 1P, 10T, 5Z, Ro8: 6T, 2Z (This was one of the few tournaments noted in this list where one race did not show up in the ro8, the other one being in 2012 season 2. Also of note, this was the largest number of a single racial group I found in the ro16, and it also had 6T in the ro8. Once more, it had 4T from the ro4 on) 2011 GSL November - Ro16: 5P, 8T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 5T, 1Z (Balance had obviously shifted at this point, and there were more races in the Ro8/Ro4, despite the overrepresentation of T in the Ro16/8).
This does not look at all Korean tournaments (and it ignores foreign tournaments), and it focuses primarily on either the biggest offenders of racial representation or during the eras of known imbalance. I didn't find any really large groups during the 2014 GSLs, and aside from this year, LotV has been remarkably balanced compared to prior versions.
Looking at this, it seems that the current GSL season, although it overrepresents P in the Ro16/8, 8/5 respectively are among the lower numbers of the overrepresented seasons, though of course, it is still in a category of overrepresentation. The outlier seems to be 2019 GSL ST 1, with of course, the 7P in the ro8. During a time of imbalance, it's not unusual to see a similar number, and I'm not sure if 1 more person over the 6 that we've seen in the past is really that huge. It might be, but it might not be.
The other note on this is that the biggest overall time of overrepresentation was in 2011 GSL October, with 10T in the ro16, which we have never seen before or since and the 6T in the ro8, which even this season does not surpass. Additionally, this was about almost a full year's worth of tournaments in the TvT era, whereas we have only seen 2 tournaments that were like this. In terms of eras of overrepresentation, this does count among them, but we'd need more tournaments to conclusively tell that it was worse/better compared to prior times.
TL;DR: 2019 ST with 7P was definitely bad, but the GSL season is relatively tame compared to prior times of overrepresentation. However, this past season does indeed fall into the category of having one racial group overrepresented over the other.
Thanks for the summary :O!
I had the same gut feeling that this wasn't that different from GomTvT in 2011 or BL-Infestor in late 2012~early 2013. However, I think one could draw the conclusion that even if Protoss dominance in GSL isn't unprecedented, it's still analogous to past game-states that the community disliked and wanted to see fixed.
[TL.net]: I read an interesting post by an Overwatch designer where he talked about the "perception" of balance. This might just be me reading between the lines, but do you feel like you're forced to manage the community's perception of balance versus what the stats are telling you?
David Kim: Every game is different so I can’t really speak to Overwatch and what’s right for that, but for StarCraft what we think is that the perception is part of the balance. Like, if perception was bad and the data was good, then we would say that a part of balance is bad because community perception is such a huge part of getting balance right.
I have an example when new designers come in and they say like “it’s only about the data, not what people think.” When they say that, my extreme example is “say the numbers are 50/50 but everyone thinks the balance sucks right now—is that a good place to be in?” Obviously not, right? So my response to that is, yeah, then the game’s not balanced.
I have an example when new designers come in and they say like “it’s only about the data, not what people think.” When they say that, my extreme example is “say the numbers are 50/50 but everyone thinks the balance sucks right now—is that a good place to be in?” Obviously not, right? So my response to that is, yeah, then the game’s not balanced.
just nerf the prism. give it less health, remove the speed upgrade, make it cost 100 gas, make it slower in regular mode, make it an upgrade for pick up range. any one of these nerfs would help in both vz and vt
I actually like many of these ideas a lot, although I think PvT is actually pretty OK at the top level currently. Not 100% perfect, not actually that bad. If one was to gauge based on the vociferousness of complaining you'd think PvT was completely broken and PvZ wasn't that bad, I think it's the opposite there.
Other ideas I had myself was either slow warpins if they're done via a prism, increase gateway cooldowns if they've warped to a prism, or make units warped to a prism cost more.
I have an example when new designers come in and they say like “it’s only about the data, not what people think.” When they say that, my extreme example is “say the numbers are 50/50 but everyone thinks the balance sucks right now—is that a good place to be in?” Obviously not, right? So my response to that is, yeah, then the game’s not balanced.
That's very true.
I think my only fear is that in trying to change the perception of balance (as well as the actual balance itself), we end up shooting off into the other direction. An example I like to bring up is the 2014 Blink era. Truly, it was an imbalanced time, but after the nerfs to P and buffs to T, we had as many TvT finals during 2014 as PvP finals in addition to an abysmal PvT winrate.
I have an example when new designers come in and they say like “it’s only about the data, not what people think.” When they say that, my extreme example is “say the numbers are 50/50 but everyone thinks the balance sucks right now—is that a good place to be in?” Obviously not, right? So my response to that is, yeah, then the game’s not balanced.
That's very true.
I think my only fear is that in trying to change the perception of balance (as well as the actual balance itself), we end up shooting off into the other direction. An example I like to bring up is the 2014 Blink era. Truly, it was an imbalanced time, but after the nerfs to P and buffs to T, we had as many TvT finals during 2014 as PvP finals in addition to an abysmal PvT winrate.
It's a dangerous road to go down, people can be idiots and their perceptions can be well, well off. Everyone has their biases, and I'm no exception.
I suck, suck, SUCK with Zerg, I'm bad at reacting to things smartly in game (to the degree Zergs have to anyway), Protoss was my main, at one stage in WoL my Terran was as good as my Protoss, actually probably better and my TvP was my best matchup.
From my experiences all the races have certain difficulties and strengths, they appeal to different mindsets and styles, or mechanical or strategic skills.
As a long time WC3 player for example, actually micro was, and still is absolutely my strength. So I was best at PvP in the 4 gate era because (on average) my micro was better than the competition, I initially switched to Terran not because I thought they were strong but because outside of early game small engagemeents, I didn't think I got enough out of being good at micro (relatively) with Protoss and Terran fit better, and at that time that proved to be largely correct.
For every 'oh my units require so much micro to be good', on the other side there are the occasions where your opponent (or you if you offace) wishes you could actually do more micro with your units.
I mean it sounds a bit BM to put it in such a way, but there's a segment of the Terran playerbase who think that because they have to micro bio (often badly tbh) that it's unfair and that the game needs to be rebalanced because 'Terran master race' or whatever.
This isn't to say the game is great balance wise currently, but the reality is that neither Protoss or Zerg, outside of smaller early game stuff, or lategame technical comps can possibly get as much out of their units from good micro as Terran can, it's always been the other side of the coin - effective A move comps that you can't really get more out of vs incredibly microable comps that are either stomped or stomp depending on how good your micro is.
just make prisms use the slow warpin, it would remove the problem of running a prism into your opponent's main when they're out of position and instantly warping in a ton of zealots, while still allowing you to reinforce your army provided you keep it well protected
On June 10 2019 21:58 DSh1 wrote: Personally, playing against siege tanks is one of the most annoying things in sc2. So I would be against a siege tank buff.
Regarding Warp Prisms: I didn't know it was not intended for reinforcing armies. I thought this was primarily the purpose as opposed to harassment.
The Thor change sounds nice, though I don't know if that's easy to do or consistent with other targetting rules.
The problem with warpins is that being able to fly a prity cheep (200 mineral unit) into your oponents main should not be a mid or late game win condition. But it is. If terran trys to fly 40 supply of army into your main yeah its scary but at least their is an inehrint risk that they lose a medivac or sevral of them for free and the opponent gets a strong trade. The problem with warprism is that thier is very little risk involved in loosing it in mid or late game situations. Yet if it does make it into the main its devistating. protoss should not be able to so easly put 30 o 40 supply of zelots in your main without more risk involved if they fail. Imagine what happens to terran or zerg if they lose 30 to 40 supply of units in drop ships, protoss just does not have that kind of risk involved in their drops. yes nydus is also strong but past midgame it has way more counter play. nydus can be shut down by an observant player with only like 12 supply of units at home. Where as for toss to counter prism terran or zerg have to make walls of static d any where they might want to warpin. its an utterly ridiculous unit. But wait it does more. Not only is it a 200 mineral win condition, it also gives protoss extermly powerfull micro potential that in the right hands makes their pvz pushes almost unstopable. This is why the unit needs nerfs. Iether the other races need counters, or the unit needs to be tuned down. If blizz does not want to nerf it than at least give us counter play. maybes give terran and zergs a somewhat expensive statci d structure that denies warpins from occurring in an area about the size of your main, make it fairly costly so that you cant use it offensively.
I have an example when new designers come in and they say like “it’s only about the data, not what people think.” When they say that, my extreme example is “say the numbers are 50/50 but everyone thinks the balance sucks right now—is that a good place to be in?” Obviously not, right? So my response to that is, yeah, then the game’s not balanced.
That's very true.
I think my only fear is that in trying to change the perception of balance (as well as the actual balance itself), we end up shooting off into the other direction. An example I like to bring up is the 2014 Blink era. Truly, it was an imbalanced time, but after the nerfs to P and buffs to T, we had as many TvT finals during 2014 as PvP finals in addition to an abysmal PvT winrate.
It's a dangerous road to go down, people can be idiots and their perceptions can be well, well off. Everyone has their biases, and I'm no exception.
I suck, suck, SUCK with Zerg, I'm bad at reacting to things smartly in game (to the degree Zergs have to anyway), Protoss was my main, at one stage in WoL my Terran was as good as my Protoss, actually probably better and my TvP was my best matchup.
From my experiences all the races have certain difficulties and strengths, they appeal to different mindsets and styles, or mechanical or strategic skills.
As a long time WC3 player for example, actually micro was, and still is absolutely my strength. So I was best at PvP in the 4 gate era because (on average) my micro was better than the competition, I initially switched to Terran not because I thought they were strong but because outside of early game small engagemeents, I didn't think I got enough out of being good at micro (relatively) with Protoss and Terran fit better, and at that time that proved to be largely correct.
For every 'oh my units require so much micro to be good', on the other side there are the occasions where your opponent (or you if you offace) wishes you could actually do more micro with your units.
I mean it sounds a bit BM to put it in such a way, but there's a segment of the Terran playerbase who think that because they have to micro bio (often badly tbh) that it's unfair and that the game needs to be rebalanced because 'Terran master race' or whatever.
This isn't to say the game is great balance wise currently, but the reality is that neither Protoss or Zerg, outside of smaller early game stuff, or lategame technical comps can possibly get as much out of their units from good micro as Terran can, it's always been the other side of the coin - effective A move comps that you can't really get more out of vs incredibly microable comps that are either stomped or stomp depending on how good your micro is.
is this really the case though? I would say that well microed terran late game is even at best with protoss air armada. yamoto on bcs is prity good, but toss have started to figure out counter play to the yamato and jump away strats. Mainly just pouncing on terran as soon as they get collsi+ storm and straight up ending the game id say any tech below that and terran army only goes even with a toss army if terran is fully set up and sieged and toss fights into it.
vs zerg I totally agree the cost efficiency can just get absurd but vs toss Im less convinced.
I have an example when new designers come in and they say like “it’s only about the data, not what people think.” When they say that, my extreme example is “say the numbers are 50/50 but everyone thinks the balance sucks right now—is that a good place to be in?” Obviously not, right? So my response to that is, yeah, then the game’s not balanced.
That's very true.
I think my only fear is that in trying to change the perception of balance (as well as the actual balance itself), we end up shooting off into the other direction. An example I like to bring up is the 2014 Blink era. Truly, it was an imbalanced time, but after the nerfs to P and buffs to T, we had as many TvT finals during 2014 as PvP finals in addition to an abysmal PvT winrate.
It's a dangerous road to go down, people can be idiots and their perceptions can be well, well off. Everyone has their biases, and I'm no exception.
I suck, suck, SUCK with Zerg, I'm bad at reacting to things smartly in game (to the degree Zergs have to anyway), Protoss was my main, at one stage in WoL my Terran was as good as my Protoss, actually probably better and my TvP was my best matchup.
From my experiences all the races have certain difficulties and strengths, they appeal to different mindsets and styles, or mechanical or strategic skills.
As a long time WC3 player for example, actually micro was, and still is absolutely my strength. So I was best at PvP in the 4 gate era because (on average) my micro was better than the competition, I initially switched to Terran not because I thought they were strong but because outside of early game small engagemeents, I didn't think I got enough out of being good at micro (relatively) with Protoss and Terran fit better, and at that time that proved to be largely correct.
For every 'oh my units require so much micro to be good', on the other side there are the occasions where your opponent (or you if you offace) wishes you could actually do more micro with your units.
I mean it sounds a bit BM to put it in such a way, but there's a segment of the Terran playerbase who think that because they have to micro bio (often badly tbh) that it's unfair and that the game needs to be rebalanced because 'Terran master race' or whatever.
This isn't to say the game is great balance wise currently, but the reality is that neither Protoss or Zerg, outside of smaller early game stuff, or lategame technical comps can possibly get as much out of their units from good micro as Terran can, it's always been the other side of the coin - effective A move comps that you can't really get more out of vs incredibly microable comps that are either stomped or stomp depending on how good your micro is.
is this really the case though? I would say that well microed terran late game is even at best with protoss air armada. yamoto on bcs is prity good, but toss have started to figure out counter play to the yamato and jump away strats. Mainly just pouncing on terran as soon as they get collsi+ storm and straight up ending the game id say any tech below that and terran army only goes even with a toss army if terran is fully set up and sieged and toss fights into it.
vs zerg I totally agree the cost efficiency can just get absurd but vs toss Im less convinced.
Maru seems able to play it against Protoss efficiently. Gumiho can if he gets a good map and a good start, Not sure about TY and Inno wants to pull the boys or hit some sharp timing. This makes me think about something Polt said yesterday on stream. ''I don't think Protoss is imbalanced in TvP, i just think Protoss is too easy in TvP.''
Just reduce Warp Prism's pick up range and have it do slow warp-ins should fix a lot of the problems. Right now it provides too much utility for a unit that doesn't cost gas.
On June 11 2019 01:55 yyltyler wrote: This PvT recorded 53% win rate in season 2, 43% in season 1, below 50% in WCS spring, below 50% in super tournament (I didn’t count qualifiers)
Why do all the suggestions involve nerfing protoss in the matchup when it is clearly not overpowered judging by the numbers? If anything, the number is tilted in terran’s favour (though I think it is balanced) I don’t get why PvT is a tragedy.
If something needs to be fixed it is PvZ. All the recent tournaments record above 50% protoss win rate by a large margin, including super tournament, WCS and GSL.
RO12 IEM - 1 Terran, eliminated. GSL ST 1T 7P, for the first time in history we broke the record and made a new history record with 7 people of the same race in the RO8. This broke GOMTvT and BLInfestor era. BW included according to many. Code S RO16 - 8P, 4T 4Z. Those are 3 top tournaments with the top players(Except Classic @ IEM) without proper Terran representation. The only saving grace of Terrans was Maru in the Code S and that's not happening either. Maybe that's the reason? 1 or 2 tournaments can be an exception, 3 tournaments? How long will we close eyes?
The current era: ST 2019 1 - Ro16: 9P, 2T, 5Z, Ro8: 7P, 1Z (Note: I think it's worthwhile to point out that a large racial number in a prior round will often follow into the subsequent rounds, so it's not unusual to see a large number of P in the Ro8. However, 7P in a ro8 is quite strange) GSL - Ro16: 8P, 4T, 4Z, Ro8: 5P, 1T, 2Z (For an era where one race is stronger than another, 5 of any race in the Ro8 is quite common, though 8 in the round of 16 was among the higher ones overall, though lower in the bigger imbalanced tournaments)
The purported Z-favoured era (Note: I really don't know when this era started, but whenever it was, it was really quite short, as it lasted from around mid-2012 to early-2013, and then we switched to Heart of the Swarm)
2012 GSL 2 - Ro16: 7P, 7T, 2Z, Ro8: 5P, 3T (This was the season of the famous MVP/Squirtle finals, and it happened right before I think the famous Broodlord/Infestor era, and this season is rather striking when compared to how people tend to remember 2012 as being about the Broodlord/Infestor time)
2012 GSL 5 - Ro16: 2P, 6T, 8Z, Ro8: 1P, 3T, 4Z (This season was the infamous "IMBA, IMBA, IMBA" note from Ryung, and even with a ZvZ finals, it still only had 4Z in the ro8, though it did have 8Z in the ro16) 2012 Blizzard Cup - Ro10: 4P, 1T, 5Z, Ro6: 1P, 5Z (This tournament was a final of finals of sort, and it also had a strange Ro10, which was rarely, if ever, seen in a premier tournament ever again) 2013 GSL 1 - Ro16: 3P, 5T, 8Z, Ro8: 2P, 2T, 2Z (Again, despite having a ZvZ finals, it had relatively fewer Zs in the Ro8/16 compared to more imbalanced seasons. Also, this was the final GSL before the HotS switch)
The infamous GOMTvT era 2011 GSL January - Ro16: 4P, 9T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 4T, 2Z (Interestingly, despite having 9T in the ro16, there were only 4T in the ro8. However, there were 3T in the ro4, and it was a TvT finals) 2011 GSL ST - Ro16: 1P, 9T, 6Z, Ro8: 1P, 6T, 1Z (This tournament tied for the most T in the ro8. Also, of note is this had 4T in the Ro4) 2011 GSL August - Ro16: 4P, 9T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 5T, 1Z (This tournament again had a TvT finals) 2011 GSL October - Ro16: 1P, 10T, 5Z, Ro8: 6T, 2Z (This was one of the few tournaments noted in this list where one race did not show up in the ro8, the other one being in 2012 season 2. Also of note, this was the largest number of a single racial group I found in the ro16, and it also had 6T in the ro8. Once more, it had 4T from the ro4 on) 2011 GSL November - Ro16: 5P, 8T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 5T, 1Z (Balance had obviously shifted at this point, and there were more races in the Ro8/Ro4, despite the overrepresentation of T in the Ro16/8).
This does not look at all Korean tournaments (and it ignores foreign tournaments), and it focuses primarily on either the biggest offenders of racial representation or during the eras of known imbalance. I didn't find any really large groups during the 2014 GSLs, and aside from this year, LotV has been remarkably balanced compared to prior versions.
Looking at this, it seems that the current GSL season, although it overrepresents P in the Ro16/8, 8/5 respectively are among the lower numbers of the overrepresented seasons, though of course, it is still in a category of overrepresentation. The outlier seems to be 2019 GSL ST 1, with of course, the 7P in the ro8. During a time of imbalance, it's not unusual to see a similar number, and I'm not sure if 1 more person over the 6 that we've seen in the past is really that huge. It might be, but it might not be.
The other note on this is that the biggest overall time of overrepresentation was in 2011 GSL October, with 10T in the ro16, which we have never seen before or since and the 6T in the ro8, which even this season does not surpass. Additionally, this was about almost a full year's worth of tournaments in the TvT era, whereas we have only seen 2 tournaments that were like this. In terms of eras of overrepresentation, this does count among them, but we'd need more tournaments to conclusively tell that it was worse/better compared to prior times.
TL;DR: 2019 ST with 7P was definitely bad, but the GSL season is relatively tame compared to prior times of overrepresentation. However, this past season does indeed fall into the category of having one racial group overrepresented over the other.
Thanks for the summary :O!
I had the same gut feeling that this wasn't that different from GomTvT in 2011 or BL-Infestor in late 2012~early 2013. However, I think one could draw the conclusion that even if Protoss dominance in GSL isn't unprecedented, it's still analogous to past game-states that the community disliked and wanted to see fixed.
[TL.net]: I read an interesting post by an Overwatch designer where he talked about the "perception" of balance. This might just be me reading between the lines, but do you feel like you're forced to manage the community's perception of balance versus what the stats are telling you?
David Kim: Every game is different so I can’t really speak to Overwatch and what’s right for that, but for StarCraft what we think is that the perception is part of the balance. Like, if perception was bad and the data was good, then we would say that a part of balance is bad because community perception is such a huge part of getting balance right.
I have an example when new designers come in and they say like “it’s only about the data, not what people think.” When they say that, my extreme example is “say the numbers are 50/50 but everyone thinks the balance sucks right now—is that a good place to be in?” Obviously not, right? So my response to that is, yeah, then the game’s not balanced.
Yeah, it's such a mature idea. David Kim was a wise man indeed. But the truth is, certain people are just whiny in their nature. All they crave for is the opportunity to jump out of the bushes to start lobbying their interests. Even the slightest change in the meta, a single occasion - everything will work. And those childish threats - "i'll quit the game, dont even try to convince me otherwise" - man, those are awesome. The first mistake is to think that those people are the majority (or even close). The second is to think that their opinions actually matter and that imaginary balance issues negatively affect the game's online. Nothing of this is true. David Kim (being the wise man) understood this and spoke "right" things but did what he truly wanted. And he was actually very stubborn with his views of balance. SH bs lasting for 1,5+ years - is that an example of listening to the community? And the "oracles" whine? It started since day 1 of hots. Did he adress that ever? There are tons of other examples. So yes, devs could imitate they listen, like DK proposed, and throw them another bone like upgrade timing increase. I lol'd hard at that one. So i guess that's the only thing that would stop the whiners. It's a good old politicians trick: do something that's formally "right" but doesnt change a thing in reality. So they will lose the formal reason to whine, and shut up.
The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance meta is based around WP.
The obvious nerf to the warp prism (which is more the key unit in PvZ than PvT but regardless) is a speed nerf not this bizarre stuff with energy. Pick-up range nerf would also work most likely, but is less preferrable since viewers like to watch the fancy micro.
The main thing that's wrong with protoss now is prism pickup range + zealot strength. I'm surprised no one is talking about zealot strength while it's been consistently buffed since LOTV. The charge damage, the charge cost, the overall speed of the unit have been buffed to the point where 10 zealots in enemy production require 0 micro/attention from the protoss player while dealing insane amounts of damage. It doesn't pose as much trouble in frontal fights, but boy does it makes protoss harass stronger with prisms. Prism pickup range has always been an extraordinarily idiotic idea. It's like blizzard looked at liquidHero's prism micro in WOL and said "isn't this cool? What if every protoss could do that with 5% of his skill?". 6 range is absolutely insane too, it basically gives blink to immortals/colossi/archons.
I think blizz should make charge 150/150 and remove the 8 charge damage, and remove prism pickup range : make it a robo bay upgrade and only 4 range. Then if protoss struggles too much maybe make the oracle light again, since armored tag + cyclones make them quite useless.
I think for the warp prism, one change could be that you could reduce the pick up range to the "normal" previous one, when it's in Umbrella mode, so you have to choose and commit your WP, if you want to use for micro (higher pick up range) or for reinforcement (edit: that's more about PvZ immortal all-in though). Additionally, we could also increase the time needed to change between the two modes.
I like that Warp Prism now has a lot of micro potential, and many memorable moments were created with it. But when Warp Prism shows up in your main base and delivers a small army of zealots right away... it doesn't feel right. Zealots used to be not so good, so big warp-ins could be good or bad. Now it's always good. They trade well and draw so much attention from terran player. Here is my idea of how WP could be changed: - If warp-in gets cancelled, units will be wasted.You know, teleportation process can be dangerous. Personlly, I really like this idea. WP won't lose any of its functionalities but careless use will have potential of failure. Now you risk only 200 minerals and that's way too little, considering how much of a threat this unit is. If you don't want to risk, you can use observers, illusions or revelations. Seems fair to me.
The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance meta is based around WP.
Well no, in what meta is Protoss not reinforcing their army with GW units?
Current meta just doesn't get there, especially in PvZ, but the process is that you take with your army a warp prism for reinforcements even in the late game. An energy based warp ins require a pylon AND A GATEWAY, near your army which heavily nerfs reinforcements. GW units are shitty because of the instant warp ins near the army based on the WP. It's not about meta.
While I don't mind changing this we need to address this fact too.
On June 11 2019 01:55 yyltyler wrote: This PvT recorded 53% win rate in season 2, 43% in season 1, below 50% in WCS spring, below 50% in super tournament (I didn’t count qualifiers)
Why do all the suggestions involve nerfing protoss in the matchup when it is clearly not overpowered judging by the numbers? If anything, the number is tilted in terran’s favour (though I think it is balanced) I don’t get why PvT is a tragedy.
If something needs to be fixed it is PvZ. All the recent tournaments record above 50% protoss win rate by a large margin, including super tournament, WCS and GSL.
RO12 IEM - 1 Terran, eliminated. GSL ST 1T 7P, for the first time in history we broke the record and made a new history record with 7 people of the same race in the RO8. This broke GOMTvT and BLInfestor era. BW included according to many. Code S RO16 - 8P, 4T 4Z. Those are 3 top tournaments with the top players(Except Classic @ IEM) without proper Terran representation. The only saving grace of Terrans was Maru in the Code S and that's not happening either. Maybe that's the reason? 1 or 2 tournaments can be an exception, 3 tournaments? How long will we close eyes?
What was the most zergs ever in top8/16?
Looking at purely the Korean tournaments
The current era: ST 2019 1 - Ro16: 9P, 2T, 5Z, Ro8: 7P, 1Z (Note: I think it's worthwhile to point out that a large racial number in a prior round will often follow into the subsequent rounds, so it's not unusual to see a large number of P in the Ro8. However, 7P in a ro8 is quite strange) GSL - Ro16: 8P, 4T, 4Z, Ro8: 5P, 1T, 2Z (For an era where one race is stronger than another, 5 of any race in the Ro8 is quite common, though 8 in the round of 16 was among the higher ones overall, though lower in the bigger imbalanced tournaments)
The purported Z-favoured era (Note: I really don't know when this era started, but whenever it was, it was really quite short, as it lasted from around mid-2012 to early-2013, and then we switched to Heart of the Swarm)
2012 GSL 2 - Ro16: 7P, 7T, 2Z, Ro8: 5P, 3T (This was the season of the famous MVP/Squirtle finals, and it happened right before I think the famous Broodlord/Infestor era, and this season is rather striking when compared to how people tend to remember 2012 as being about the Broodlord/Infestor time)
2012 GSL 5 - Ro16: 2P, 6T, 8Z, Ro8: 1P, 3T, 4Z (This season was the infamous "IMBA, IMBA, IMBA" note from Ryung, and even with a ZvZ finals, it still only had 4Z in the ro8, though it did have 8Z in the ro16) 2012 Blizzard Cup - Ro10: 4P, 1T, 5Z, Ro6: 1P, 5Z (This tournament was a final of finals of sort, and it also had a strange Ro10, which was rarely, if ever, seen in a premier tournament ever again) 2013 GSL 1 - Ro16: 3P, 5T, 8Z, Ro8: 2P, 2T, 2Z (Again, despite having a ZvZ finals, it had relatively fewer Zs in the Ro8/16 compared to more imbalanced seasons. Also, this was the final GSL before the HotS switch)
The infamous GOMTvT era 2011 GSL January - Ro16: 4P, 9T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 4T, 2Z (Interestingly, despite having 9T in the ro16, there were only 4T in the ro8. However, there were 3T in the ro4, and it was a TvT finals) 2011 GSL ST - Ro16: 1P, 9T, 6Z, Ro8: 1P, 6T, 1Z (This tournament tied for the most T in the ro8. Also, of note is this had 4T in the Ro4) 2011 GSL August - Ro16: 4P, 9T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 5T, 1Z (This tournament again had a TvT finals) 2011 GSL October - Ro16: 1P, 10T, 5Z, Ro8: 6T, 2Z (This was one of the few tournaments noted in this list where one race did not show up in the ro8, the other one being in 2012 season 2. Also of note, this was the largest number of a single racial group I found in the ro16, and it also had 6T in the ro8. Once more, it had 4T from the ro4 on) 2011 GSL November - Ro16: 5P, 8T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 5T, 1Z (Balance had obviously shifted at this point, and there were more races in the Ro8/Ro4, despite the overrepresentation of T in the Ro16/8).
Not only has there never been 7 players of the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 premier Korean tournament (until the last GSL Super Tournament), there was never 7 players of the same race in the quarterfinals of BW.
If you include BW, that's about 20 years of Starcraft where there was never 7 players of the same race in the quarterfinals of a Korean premier tournament. But that record was broken in the GSL Super Tournament with 7 Protoss in the quarterfinals.
Warp Prism pick up range doesn't need nerfed but it should be required to research it at Robo Bay. So early game Warp prism picks up like medivac i.e. units must be directly under it. Then you can research the pick up range at Robo Bay for greater late game harrassment.
Widow mines should be cloaked when burrowed period and not require the upgrade to be cloaked. So the old widow mine. This would punish protoss for delaying detection in the early game.
I think this should do it. The only other thing I would like to see but is unrealistic is a nerf to Storm radius but this nerf is probably just because I suck.
The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance meta is based around WP.
Well no, in what meta is Protoss not reinforcing their army with GW units?
Current meta just doesn't get there, especially in PvZ, but the process is that you take with your army a warp prism for reinforcements even in the late game. An energy based warp ins require a pylon AND A GATEWAY, near your army which heavily nerfs reinforcements. GW units are shitty because of the instant warp ins near the army based on the WP. It's not about meta.
While I don't mind changing this we need to address this fact too.
I don't see it as a big deal, I'm not saying it's NOT super OP, but so is nydus or bc's port. Since every P became professional juggler, I just feel like players struggle with this META, I don't think we should nerf WP warpins since it was unchanged since WoL (feel free to prove me wrong). I would go for WP speed/pick up range nerf/upgrade,
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.
I have an example when new designers come in and they say like “it’s only about the data, not what people think.” When they say that, my extreme example is “say the numbers are 50/50 but everyone thinks the balance sucks right now—is that a good place to be in?” Obviously not, right? So my response to that is, yeah, then the game’s not balanced.
That's very true.
I think my only fear is that in trying to change the perception of balance (as well as the actual balance itself), we end up shooting off into the other direction. An example I like to bring up is the 2014 Blink era. Truly, it was an imbalanced time, but after the nerfs to P and buffs to T, we had as many TvT finals during 2014 as PvP finals in addition to an abysmal PvT winrate.
It's a dangerous road to go down, people can be idiots and their perceptions can be well, well off. Everyone has their biases, and I'm no exception.
I suck, suck, SUCK with Zerg, I'm bad at reacting to things smartly in game (to the degree Zergs have to anyway), Protoss was my main, at one stage in WoL my Terran was as good as my Protoss, actually probably better and my TvP was my best matchup.
From my experiences all the races have certain difficulties and strengths, they appeal to different mindsets and styles, or mechanical or strategic skills.
As a long time WC3 player for example, actually micro was, and still is absolutely my strength. So I was best at PvP in the 4 gate era because (on average) my micro was better than the competition, I initially switched to Terran not because I thought they were strong but because outside of early game small engagemeents, I didn't think I got enough out of being good at micro (relatively) with Protoss and Terran fit better, and at that time that proved to be largely correct.
For every 'oh my units require so much micro to be good', on the other side there are the occasions where your opponent (or you if you offace) wishes you could actually do more micro with your units.
I mean it sounds a bit BM to put it in such a way, but there's a segment of the Terran playerbase who think that because they have to micro bio (often badly tbh) that it's unfair and that the game needs to be rebalanced because 'Terran master race' or whatever.
This isn't to say the game is great balance wise currently, but the reality is that neither Protoss or Zerg, outside of smaller early game stuff, or lategame technical comps can possibly get as much out of their units from good micro as Terran can, it's always been the other side of the coin - effective A move comps that you can't really get more out of vs incredibly microable comps that are either stomped or stomp depending on how good your micro is.
is this really the case though? I would say that well microed terran late game is even at best with protoss air armada. yamoto on bcs is prity good, but toss have started to figure out counter play to the yamato and jump away strats. Mainly just pouncing on terran as soon as they get collsi+ storm and straight up ending the game id say any tech below that and terran army only goes even with a toss army if terran is fully set up and sieged and toss fights into it.
vs zerg I totally agree the cost efficiency can just get absurd but vs toss Im less convinced.
I find all those super late game comps with multiple spellcasters are super hard to control well with all races, although I tend to hate air balls in SC2 with a passion but that’s a rant for another day :p
I don’t think my post was very good in retrospect, I wasn’t really arguing anything about balance per se, just the dangers of balancing around people’s perceptions and who moans loudest.
Getting ‘A move Protoss’ for 9 years or w/e on ladder, well yeah what else can I do? Individually charge my zealots? As someone who plays both races and whose best matchup is PvT and TvP respectively I can agree with people getting frustrated, at the time I felt raising the skill floor and ceiling with stock Protoss units would have been by far the best way to go. Terran players feel less frustrated at being A-moved, Protoss players get less frustrated at only being able to A-move, and at the pro level we see more flashy cool stuff that Protoss can do. It’s not as bad today but in WoL especially Protoss were just locked in to deathballs that weren’t fun or engaging to control.
Some people are more biased than others, some want their own race to be better so they can win more, some people just want a good state of Starcraft as a game (whatever that happens to look like), and the angrier and most vocal people tend to be the former, so I’m glad Blizzard don’t just bend to popular opinion.
On the other hand Blizzard are doing a terrible job at communicating lately what is up with balance, what they think etc.
I don’t see why they don’t even just use people already on their payroll as part of the process. Perhaps they do but we hear nothing about it. Guys like Rotti and DemusliM who have lots of contacts with other pros, are decent players themselves and are already paid for WCS gigs, could they not serve as some kind of conduit between the pro scene and the balance team?
You have a website like Team Liquid with all that great content and no-lifers like myself with over 10k posts, for absolutely free, never mind r/Starcraft
Blizzard can’t find one dude to post and interact on either place even intermittently? It just seems a crazy false economy to not do that when your game is now free, you pump money into a tournament scene, and people watching tournaments, buying skins and all that other stuff lives and dies on people thinking the game is in a good state.
Warp Prism needs a nerf, I still don’t think juggling matters that much balance wise, although it’s kinda dumb.
The real crazy juggling you see is when a Protoss has won and is styling, or 100% dead with nothing else to focus on
I want prisms to have a risk-reward, especially against Terran. You should be made to pay a bill for the warpin. As it stands you can fly in, do a giant zealot warpin, Terran moves a ton of bio that’s nearby so you cancel it, or targets your prism and it dies.
As it stands you don’t lose any money bar replacing your prism for warp-ins that are cancelled
You have a cheap, flying unit that can warp an army right on top of production that must be respected, with little real economic commitment, that requires Terran to make static defences and relocate army to push away.
I think a nerf that Protoss cancelling their warp costs say, 50% of resources, and an opponent killing the prism costs 100% is worth exploring.
It might not make a huge difference with really good play that circumvents defences smartly, but it would definitely add a cost to sloppy ‘I’ll keep blindly trying this until it works because it’s stupid not to’ kind of play.
On June 11 2019 19:50 Syn Harvest wrote: Warp Prism pick up range doesn't need nerfed but it should be required to research it at Robo Bay. So early game Warp prism picks up like medivac i.e. units must be directly under it. Then you can research the pick up range at Robo Bay for greater late game harrassment.
Widow mines should be cloaked when burrowed period and not require the upgrade to be cloaked. So the old widow mine. This would punish protoss for delaying detection in the early game.
I think this should do it. The only other thing I would like to see but is unrealistic is a nerf to Storm radius but this nerf is probably just because I suck.
Not sure on the opinion of others, mine drops are already way way more annoying to defend than execute without being instantly dead if you don’t have detection. I quite like the state they are in now.
It also pins back Protoss aggression and harassment options to an unreasonable degree IMO, if you went Stargate you have to pull your Oracle back from doing harassment, or pump out an extra obs, plus needing units back too.
If Protoss 100% need detection or they die to a build that comes from the standard Terran production setup, there’s also bound to be a bunch of exploitative timings to counter the Protoss standard ‘anti mine drop’ build or whatever
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.
Mate, stop trying to reason these people. It's all in vain. Let them sink in their own bs. Blizzard won't do anything radical just because of bunch of whiners. My guess is that the next patch will include an infestor nerf and some irrelevant toss tweak/nerf to silence low-leaguers.
The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance meta is based around WP.
Well no, in what meta is Protoss not reinforcing their army with GW units?
Current meta just doesn't get there, especially in PvZ, but the process is that you take with your army a warp prism for reinforcements even in the late game. An energy based warp ins require a pylon AND A GATEWAY, near your army which heavily nerfs reinforcements. GW units are shitty because of the instant warp ins near the army based on the WP. It's not about meta.
While I don't mind changing this we need to address this fact too.
I don't see it as a big deal, I'm not saying it's NOT super OP, but so is nydus or bc's port. Since every P became professional juggler, I just feel like players struggle with this META, I don't think we should nerf WP warpins since it was unchanged since WoL (feel free to prove me wrong). I would go for WP speed/pick up range nerf/upgrade,
Dude, I was reacting to the ENERGY requirements of WP, that you can't warp more than several units because the energy would be depleted. This is a huge nerf to gateway warp ins in the lategame.
Again, let's imagine you can warp in 6 unts and that's it. The whole point of GW units being weak is that you can warp them in ANYWHERE in ANY NUMBERS. If you limit the numbers, once the meta is over, lategame armies are nerfed heavily. Because stalkers/chargelots are in the army to protect the tech units which are the walking bastions of lost hopes and dreams. That's why Storm is strong, that's why colossus is strong, that's why carrier was so strong(and kinda still is if you can get the interceptors out on, I don't know, rocks and keep them out ). With energy based WP this idea is out of order, you need to walk the units from the nearest warping point. Pylon warp ins were heavily nerfed, so you need to reinforce it with a gateway which has a building time that's not exactly short.
The whole point of my post is that with this nerf there has to be re-evaluation of stalker/chargelot(even maybe archon) and giving them some strength in the lategame, as this is a big nerf with the current unit strength.
IMO This is the reason Starbow moved the warp in mechanic into the lategame, because it's a very bad mechanic to balance.
Edit> I see thje reason and I agree, lategame suprise warp-in of 20 zealots(even 2 DTs) in the main is stupid and should be fixed but at the same we need to acknowledge what I wrote. It's a trap inside of another trap Maybe Trap can solve this
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.
Mate, stop trying to reason these people. It's all in vain. Let them sink in their own bs. Blizzard won't do anything radical just because of bunch of whiners. My guess is that the next patch will include an infestor nerf and some irrelevant toss tweak/nerf to silence low-leaguers.
And how do you silence the pros who are whining? it's not just lowleagures who are disappointed and whining. And if you mean it and not just troll/be mean - address the Terran issue and numbers in tournament. I believe we are 4 months from Katowice which was the first non-Terran tournament. How much time do we need to see the meta settled and be balanced?
Edit> it's actually quite easy to dismiss lowleaguers. Up until high masters you can play anything you want and if you have the mechanics to pull it. That's why some people can turtle to victory while pros die when they try it. That's why some people were able to make it with cannon rushes into GM while pros didn't (and no, Has isn't pure cannon rusher). Almost everyone on this page knows this, there's no point to balance things around lower leagues unless you want to address people massively leaving. But we currently have an issue in the Korean PvZ and PvT. Current numbers aren't a coincidence when they repeat for several months
You could still get around that by just removing the energy requirement with an upgrade. It’s not really elegant I suppose,
I’d like to see them experiment with some kind of nerf specifically around timings vZ, that you can ‘un-nerf’ via an upgrade, so you don’t have to rebalance too much at once and can test stuff in isolation to see what they affect.
I feel we’re feeling the effects of Blizzard never really addressing other core issues, and giving us Protoss a stronger and stronger warp prism to compensate to the degree our race is utterly dependent on it
On June 11 2019 22:25 Wombat_NI wrote: You could still get around that by just removing the energy requirement with an upgrade. It’s not really elegant I suppose,
I’d like to see them experiment with some kind of nerf specifically around timings vZ, that you can ‘un-nerf’ via an upgrade, so you don’t have to rebalance too much at once and can test stuff in isolation to see what they affect.
I feel we’re feeling the effects of Blizzard never really addressing other core issues, and giving us Protoss a stronger and stronger warp prism to compensate to the degree our race is utterly dependent on it
Yeah, and it is unfortunate to be honest, they did acknowledge the fact that warping mechanic was a problem by nerfing pylone warping which was a step in the good direction, but they gave such a buff to the warp prism as a micro unit during battle and as an harass unit that they aggravated the problem.
Im reading some of the sillier suggestions presented by a few of you folks, and MAN am I glad the people proposing them aren't on the balance team.
Ill take a small nerf to warp prism OR zealots OR buffs to other races, but some of you guys wanna make the Warp prism 200/100, make the warp in only possible after upgrade, nerf movement speed, remove charge, make immos build 10 seconds slower AND make widow mines invis without upgrade again.
I think theres a lot of scarred players who just wanna delete toss from the game
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.
Another High IQ poster
But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP.
Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are.
I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.
Another High IQ poster
But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP.
Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are.
I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.
Excellent contribution to this discussion, you must be very good at this game!
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.
Another High IQ poster
But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP.
Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are.
I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.
Excellent contribution to this discussion, you must be very good at this game!
I'm probably better than 80% of the player base.
Good enough to not blame balance on my own mistakes when I play the game.
You know I actually play the game rather than play "theory craft" like the majority of the posters here.
But carry on with your theory crafting with the rest of your gang big boy
On June 11 2019 22:25 Wombat_NI wrote: You could still get around that by just removing the energy requirement with an upgrade. It’s not really elegant I suppose,
I’d like to see them experiment with some kind of nerf specifically around timings vZ, that you can ‘un-nerf’ via an upgrade, so you don’t have to rebalance too much at once and can test stuff in isolation to see what they affect.
I feel we’re feeling the effects of Blizzard never really addressing other core issues, and giving us Protoss a stronger and stronger warp prism to compensate to the degree our race is utterly dependent on it
Yeah, and it is unfortunate to be honest, they did acknowledge the fact that warping mechanic was a problem by nerfing pylone warping which was a step in the good direction, but they gave such a buff to the warp prism as a micro unit during battle and as an harass unit that they aggravated the problem.
I don’t really understand that, at least currently it feels the two should be the other way around, of course early cheese throws a spanner in that.
The mobile unit that has other micro utility is better at warpin things than the building that requires a probe on the map, and has a build time.
I feel flipping that around would make some sense, it probably would bring other problems for sure, but in isolation.
What I don’t like about the prism is it enables a Protoss to transition from small poke of units to committed all-in very quickly, and there’s no real downside there, but it’s really difficult to know what’s coming until it’s right on you.
With pylons at least the Protoss has to set up riskily, or have a longer reinforcement time for a more safe pylon.
The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates.
The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates.
Those issues also exist in other matchups as well.
For example, lategame ZvP is so disgustingly Z favored that it's very difficult to find even a single game of it in 2019.
Tournament viewers don't see that directly so they place the blame entirely on the P earlygame when it's only a single piece of the puzzle - Protoss were doing these all-ins literally every game for months even when it was only winning 45% of the time because even that was better than the alternative.
It's a "don't let them get there" matchup all over again with zerg on the other side of it now. The main changes that pushed it there were the several nerfs to carriers, nerf to tempest and feedback nerf.
--------
Then if protoss struggles too much maybe make the oracle light again, since armored tag + cyclones make them quite useless.
On June 10 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote: - return the siege mode upgrade - increase the interference matrix cost to 75 Boom! PvT becomes somewhat playable.
going to add to this:
- some kind of nerf to widow mines. The ability of a 75/25 reactor unit to either kill double digit workers or kill/maim the most expensive units in the game is ridiculous
- battlecruiser nerf. Let's be real here. Battlecruisers are broken in TvP. Protoss has no counter play against them thanks to the godly triad of yamato/tactical jump/raw pound-for-pound strength. Tempests are not a viable answer as they cannot engage battlecruisers directly, cannot abuse their range t hanks to tactical jump, and cannot challenge a base trade initiated by battlecruisers which have far greater dps and map presence. Void rays are arguably the worst unit in the game and cannot trade well thanks to yamato + tj anyway. lolstalkers
- marauder nerf. The ability of marauders to threaten and trade with every protoss ground unit in the game, even zealots, is absurd
The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates.
Those issues also exist in other matchups as well.
For example, lategame ZvP is so disgustingly Z favored that it's very difficult to find even a single game of it in 2019.
Tournament viewers don't see that directly so they place the blame entirely on the P earlygame when it's only a single piece of the puzzle - Protoss were doing these all-ins literally every game for months even when it was only winning 45% of the time because even that was better than the alternative.
It's a "don't let them get there" matchup all over again with zerg on the other side of it now. The main changes that pushed it there were the several nerfs to carriers, nerf to tempest and feedback nerf.
great post. I would like to add that it was just not Blizzard nerfing Protoss late game into oblivion - it was also Blizzard nerfing zerg defensive capability in the form of queen and creep.
If protoss late game is helpless, and zerg early-mid game is nerfed, what does anyone expect would happen? Protoss players would obviously try to end the game before the untouchable infestor/viper compositions come out. That's why you see protoss players busting out the cheese and myriad of timings.
And now people are looking for scapegoats like the warp prism, which has been the same and nobody complained about until Blizzard did their unnecessary tinkering.
Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea.
I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals.
/s ( of course)
Aligulac can't be taken seriously for "pro gaming" winrates, most of the games registered are not from pro gamer vs pro gamer, PvZ winrates are probably around 60-65% for Protoss in KR, and PvT around 55%~ , and that's with twice as many protoss at least than zergs/terrans in the later stages of tournaments.
But yes Zerg is favoured on late game, and maybe TOO favoured, it's hard to tell when they all die to 2 base timings.
Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea.
I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals.
/s ( of course)
You've created a false dichotomy between "nerfing Protoss" and "buffing Protoss". One could simply not nerf Protoss, or attempt to tweak all the races in such a way that the even win-rates are maintained while addressing the various issues presented (frustrating strategies, certain races being stronger in the early game or late game, etc.).
Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea.
I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals.
/s ( of course)
You've created a false dichotomy between "nerfing Protoss" and "buffing Protoss". One could simply not nerf Protoss, or attempt to tweak all the races in such a way that the even win-rates are maintained while addressing the various issues presented (frustrating strategies, certain races being stronger in the early game or late game, etc.).
that way of thinking doesnt fall in line with the narrative of the Protoss Boogeyman though
There was no way to reply to a post that says PvT/PvZ are T/Z favoured but with sarcasm and that's what you decide to quote lol,literally a couple sentences ahead I say Zerg late game might be TOO strong.
Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea.
I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals.
/s ( of course)
Aligulac can't be taken seriously for "pro gaming" winrates, most of the games registered are not from pro gamer vs pro gamer, PvZ winrates are probably around 60-65% for Protoss in KR, and PvT around 55%~ , and that's with twice as many protoss at least than zergs/terrans in the later stages of tournaments.
But yes Zerg is favoured on late game, and maybe TOO favoured, it's hard to tell when they all die to 2 base timings.
If Terran are using mech in Korean tournaments more against Protoss than Protoss are playing for the late game using any style, probably all you need to know.
They’re not stupid, they practice with people, they ladder. It’s not really ‘hard to tell’, Protoss is fucked if they try to go toe to toe with Zerg in lategame.
Previously Stargate harassment to keep the Zerg eco in check, while building a core of Robo units and Templar, and then the lategame transition is to use your Stargates again for Carriers
There’s a flow there that makes sense, that’s how you go toe to toe with a Zerg ‘straight up’ Now Carriers are worse and feedback is worse at killing casters.
So you have worse Carriers, a worse counter to viper pulls and infestors, and (solely referring to the lategame) you have nothing that is actually better than before.
That flow just doesn’t work anymore, it can’t work, the fact that the best Protoss players in the world don’t even try to throw in a lategame focused game even in a Bo5 is probably saying something.
Serral can win a Blizzcon in that meta by outplaying Stats, even with the supposed awful Skytoss. There are options there for each side.
Now we have a much, much worse PvZ meta where soO can just get all-inned every single set by Classic and roll the dice wrong more times than not.
On June 12 2019 09:21 terribleplayer1 wrote: There was no way to reply to a post that says PvT/PvZ are T/Z favoured but with sarcasm and that's what you decide to quote lol,literally a couple sentences ahead I say Zerg late game might be TOO strong.
I'm fairly certain that you edited your post after I initially clicked the Quote button, so I may have missed that, but it seems odd that you would ridicule the idea of PvZ potentially being Zerg favored while admitting that at least part of the match-up is Zerg favored.
Regardless, it seems that tweaking multiple races and trading slight advantages seem to be equitable and reasonable ideas.
On June 10 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote: - return the siege mode upgrade - increase the interference matrix cost to 75 Boom! PvT becomes somewhat playable.
going to add to this:
- some kind of nerf to widow mines. The ability of a 75/25 reactor unit to either kill double digit workers or kill/maim the most expensive units in the game is ridiculous
- battlecruiser nerf. Let's be real here. Battlecruisers are broken in TvP. Protoss has no counter play against them thanks to the godly triad of yamato/tactical jump/raw pound-for-pound strength. Tempests are not a viable answer as they cannot engage battlecruisers directly, cannot abuse their range t hanks to tactical jump, and cannot challenge a base trade initiated by battlecruisers which have far greater dps and map presence. Void rays are arguably the worst unit in the game and cannot trade well thanks to yamato + tj anyway. lolstalkers
- marauder nerf. The ability of marauders to threaten and trade with every protoss ground unit in the game, even zealots, is absurd
The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates.
Those issues also exist in other matchups as well.
For example, lategame ZvP is so disgustingly Z favored that it's very difficult to find even a single game of it in 2019.
Tournament viewers don't see that directly so they place the blame entirely on the P earlygame when it's only a single piece of the puzzle - Protoss were doing these all-ins literally every game for months even when it was only winning 45% of the time because even that was better than the alternative.
It's a "don't let them get there" matchup all over again with zerg on the other side of it now. The main changes that pushed it there were the several nerfs to carriers, nerf to tempest and feedback nerf.
great post. I would like to add that it was just not Blizzard nerfing Protoss late game into oblivion - it was also Blizzard nerfing zerg defensive capability in the form of queen and creep.
If protoss late game is helpless, and zerg early-mid game is nerfed, what does anyone expect would happen? Protoss players would obviously try to end the game before the untouchable infestor/viper compositions come out. That's why you see protoss players busting out the cheese and myriad of timings.
And now people are looking for scapegoats like the warp prism, which has been the same and nobody complained about until Blizzard did their unnecessary tinkering.
Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea.
I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals.
/s ( of course)
Aligulac can't be taken seriously for "pro gaming" winrates, most of the games registered are not from pro gamer vs pro gamer, PvZ winrates are probably around 60-65% for Protoss in KR, and PvT around 55%~ , and that's with twice as many protoss at least than zergs/terrans in the later stages of tournaments.
But yes Zerg is favoured on late game, and maybe TOO favoured, it's hard to tell when they all die to 2 base timings.
If Terran are using mech in Korean tournaments more against Protoss than Protoss are playing for the late game using any style, probably all you need to know.
They’re not stupid, they practice with people, they ladder. It’s not really ‘hard to tell’, Protoss is fucked if they try to go toe to toe with Zerg in lategame.
Previously Stargate harassment to keep the Zerg eco in check, while building a core of Robo units and Templar, and then the lategame transition is to use your Stargates again for Carriers
There’s a flow there that makes sense, that’s how you go toe to toe with a Zerg ‘straight up’ Now Carriers are worse and feedback is worse at killing casters.
So you have worse Carriers, a worse counter to viper pulls and infestors, and (solely referring to the lategame) you have nothing that is actually better than before.
That flow just doesn’t work anymore, it can’t work, the fact that the best Protoss players in the world don’t even try to throw in a lategame focused game even in a Bo5 is probably saying something.
Serral can win a Blizzcon in that meta by outplaying Stats, even with the supposed awful Skytoss. There are options there for each side.
Now we have a much, much worse PvZ meta where soO can just get all-inned every single set by Classic and roll the dice wrong more times than not.
but we wont take this thread as an opportunity to whine about something dat doesnt have anything to do with this thread i cant online 24/7 to shut down both you guys everything freaking time dudes jeezzz
On June 10 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote: - return the siege mode upgrade - increase the interference matrix cost to 75 Boom! PvT becomes somewhat playable.
going to add to this:
- some kind of nerf to widow mines. The ability of a 75/25 reactor unit to either kill double digit workers or kill/maim the most expensive units in the game is ridiculous
- battlecruiser nerf. Let's be real here. Battlecruisers are broken in TvP. Protoss has no counter play against them thanks to the godly triad of yamato/tactical jump/raw pound-for-pound strength. Tempests are not a viable answer as they cannot engage battlecruisers directly, cannot abuse their range t hanks to tactical jump, and cannot challenge a base trade initiated by battlecruisers which have far greater dps and map presence. Void rays are arguably the worst unit in the game and cannot trade well thanks to yamato + tj anyway. lolstalkers
- marauder nerf. The ability of marauders to threaten and trade with every protoss ground unit in the game, even zealots, is absurd
On June 12 2019 08:30 Cyro wrote:
On June 12 2019 07:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63%
The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates.
Those issues also exist in other matchups as well.
For example, lategame ZvP is so disgustingly Z favored that it's very difficult to find even a single game of it in 2019.
Tournament viewers don't see that directly so they place the blame entirely on the P earlygame when it's only a single piece of the puzzle - Protoss were doing these all-ins literally every game for months even when it was only winning 45% of the time because even that was better than the alternative.
It's a "don't let them get there" matchup all over again with zerg on the other side of it now. The main changes that pushed it there were the several nerfs to carriers, nerf to tempest and feedback nerf.
great post. I would like to add that it was just not Blizzard nerfing Protoss late game into oblivion - it was also Blizzard nerfing zerg defensive capability in the form of queen and creep.
If protoss late game is helpless, and zerg early-mid game is nerfed, what does anyone expect would happen? Protoss players would obviously try to end the game before the untouchable infestor/viper compositions come out. That's why you see protoss players busting out the cheese and myriad of timings.
And now people are looking for scapegoats like the warp prism, which has been the same and nobody complained about until Blizzard did their unnecessary tinkering.
Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea.
I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals.
/s ( of course)
Aligulac can't be taken seriously for "pro gaming" winrates, most of the games registered are not from pro gamer vs pro gamer, PvZ winrates are probably around 60-65% for Protoss in KR, and PvT around 55%~ , and that's with twice as many protoss at least than zergs/terrans in the later stages of tournaments.
But yes Zerg is favoured on late game, and maybe TOO favoured, it's hard to tell when they all die to 2 base timings.
If Terran are using mech in Korean tournaments more against Protoss than Protoss are playing for the late game using any style, probably all you need to know.
They’re not stupid, they practice with people, they ladder. It’s not really ‘hard to tell’, Protoss is fucked if they try to go toe to toe with Zerg in lategame.
Previously Stargate harassment to keep the Zerg eco in check, while building a core of Robo units and Templar, and then the lategame transition is to use your Stargates again for Carriers
There’s a flow there that makes sense, that’s how you go toe to toe with a Zerg ‘straight up’ Now Carriers are worse and feedback is worse at killing casters.
So you have worse Carriers, a worse counter to viper pulls and infestors, and (solely referring to the lategame) you have nothing that is actually better than before.
That flow just doesn’t work anymore, it can’t work, the fact that the best Protoss players in the world don’t even try to throw in a lategame focused game even in a Bo5 is probably saying something.
Serral can win a Blizzcon in that meta by outplaying Stats, even with the supposed awful Skytoss. There are options there for each side.
Now we have a much, much worse PvZ meta where soO can just get all-inned every single set by Classic and roll the dice wrong more times than not.
but we wont take this thread as an opportunity to whine about something dat doesnt have anything to do with this thread i cant online 24/7 to shut down both you guys everything freaking time dudes jeezzz
I’m not really sure why you have to be online 24/7 to respond to a post that’s a direct response to someone specifically talking about PvZ within this thread but OK
Like you can just ignore it, it’s OK. We don’t really need you manning the Internet fort 24/7
‘Oh I could shut you down if I tried, instead I’ll make this snarky post taking as many words and as much effort as any kind of rebuttal’
On June 11 2019 04:39 Charoisaur wrote: I think Viking + 5 hp would fix the matchup and save esports
are you david kim
Is bunker being changed again?
Anyways, are we just looking for ways to make the match-ups more *fun*? Because that's subjective, and the game is already incredibly balanced at high level play: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ and if you're in lower level play, then there are other things one can focus on to improve.
I mean, people are throwing some ideas out that definitely feel more 'fun' than necessarily game-fixing, but regardless of that, it's hard to judge the game based on a single source of information (even if that source is a particularly good one).
How would you explain pros who are openly saying that PvZ is broken and there was only a single Terran in the RO8 based on that chart?
(definitely not trying to argue how good/bad Aligulac is, just playing devil's advocate)
the wasp prism is just another "mothership core".took them some years to figure out since there was no MC protoss got a late ass meta advantage in legacy of da void because.... again there was no MC so yeah thats all about the current state of protoss ,nothing wrong with warp prism but i dont think i want to see another 2 base all in fest in the next season so some slight defense buffs would help this shitty meta
On June 10 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote: - return the siege mode upgrade - increase the interference matrix cost to 75 Boom! PvT becomes somewhat playable.
going to add to this:
- some kind of nerf to widow mines. The ability of a 75/25 reactor unit to either kill double digit workers or kill/maim the most expensive units in the game is ridiculous
- battlecruiser nerf. Let's be real here. Battlecruisers are broken in TvP. Protoss has no counter play against them thanks to the godly triad of yamato/tactical jump/raw pound-for-pound strength. Tempests are not a viable answer as they cannot engage battlecruisers directly, cannot abuse their range t hanks to tactical jump, and cannot challenge a base trade initiated by battlecruisers which have far greater dps and map presence. Void rays are arguably the worst unit in the game and cannot trade well thanks to yamato + tj anyway. lolstalkers
- marauder nerf. The ability of marauders to threaten and trade with every protoss ground unit in the game, even zealots, is absurd
On June 12 2019 08:30 Cyro wrote:
On June 12 2019 07:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63%
The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates.
Those issues also exist in other matchups as well.
For example, lategame ZvP is so disgustingly Z favored that it's very difficult to find even a single game of it in 2019.
Tournament viewers don't see that directly so they place the blame entirely on the P earlygame when it's only a single piece of the puzzle - Protoss were doing these all-ins literally every game for months even when it was only winning 45% of the time because even that was better than the alternative.
It's a "don't let them get there" matchup all over again with zerg on the other side of it now. The main changes that pushed it there were the several nerfs to carriers, nerf to tempest and feedback nerf.
great post. I would like to add that it was just not Blizzard nerfing Protoss late game into oblivion - it was also Blizzard nerfing zerg defensive capability in the form of queen and creep.
If protoss late game is helpless, and zerg early-mid game is nerfed, what does anyone expect would happen? Protoss players would obviously try to end the game before the untouchable infestor/viper compositions come out. That's why you see protoss players busting out the cheese and myriad of timings.
And now people are looking for scapegoats like the warp prism, which has been the same and nobody complained about until Blizzard did their unnecessary tinkering.
On June 12 2019 09:22 Wombat_NI wrote:
On June 12 2019 09:07 terribleplayer1 wrote:
On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote: Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86% Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63%
Clearly we should buff Protoss, seem they are doing so poorly in the pro scene, only >=50% of them from the ro16 on in korea.
I suggest +1 pick up range on warp prism, and +50shields on immortals.
/s ( of course)
Aligulac can't be taken seriously for "pro gaming" winrates, most of the games registered are not from pro gamer vs pro gamer, PvZ winrates are probably around 60-65% for Protoss in KR, and PvT around 55%~ , and that's with twice as many protoss at least than zergs/terrans in the later stages of tournaments.
But yes Zerg is favoured on late game, and maybe TOO favoured, it's hard to tell when they all die to 2 base timings.
If Terran are using mech in Korean tournaments more against Protoss than Protoss are playing for the late game using any style, probably all you need to know.
They’re not stupid, they practice with people, they ladder. It’s not really ‘hard to tell’, Protoss is fucked if they try to go toe to toe with Zerg in lategame.
Previously Stargate harassment to keep the Zerg eco in check, while building a core of Robo units and Templar, and then the lategame transition is to use your Stargates again for Carriers
There’s a flow there that makes sense, that’s how you go toe to toe with a Zerg ‘straight up’ Now Carriers are worse and feedback is worse at killing casters.
So you have worse Carriers, a worse counter to viper pulls and infestors, and (solely referring to the lategame) you have nothing that is actually better than before.
That flow just doesn’t work anymore, it can’t work, the fact that the best Protoss players in the world don’t even try to throw in a lategame focused game even in a Bo5 is probably saying something.
Serral can win a Blizzcon in that meta by outplaying Stats, even with the supposed awful Skytoss. There are options there for each side.
Now we have a much, much worse PvZ meta where soO can just get all-inned every single set by Classic and roll the dice wrong more times than not.
but we wont take this thread as an opportunity to whine about something dat doesnt have anything to do with this thread i cant online 24/7 to shut down both you guys everything freaking time dudes jeezzz
I’m not really sure why you have to be online 24/7 to respond to a post that’s a direct response to someone specifically talking about PvZ within this thread but OK
Like you can just ignore it, it’s OK. We don’t really need you manning the Internet fort 24/7
‘Oh I could shut you down if I tried, instead I’ll make this snarky post taking as many words and as much effort as any kind of rebuttal’
dont get me wrong i wont harrass you i just want to talk normally but may be next time when you talk dat shit again,something dat i could not find in the deepest of the whiniest place on earth(i mean you fucking battle.net forum)
On June 11 2019 04:39 Charoisaur wrote: I think Viking + 5 hp would fix the matchup and save esports
are you david kim
Is bunker being changed again?
Anyways, are we just looking for ways to make the match-ups more *fun*? Because that's subjective, and the game is already incredibly balanced at high level play: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ and if you're in lower level play, then there are other things one can focus on to improve.
I mean, people are throwing some ideas out that definitely feel more 'fun' than necessarily game-fixing, but regardless of that, it's hard to judge the game based on a single source of information (even if that source is a particularly good one).
How would you explain pros who are openly saying that PvZ is broken and there was only a single Terran in the RO8 based on that chart?
(definitely not trying to argue how good/bad Aligulac is, just playing devil's advocate)
the wasp prism is just another "mothership core".took them some years to figure out since there was no MC protoss got a late ass meta advantage in legacy of da void because.... again there was no MC so yeah thats all about the current state of protoss ,nothing wrong with warp prism but i dont think i want to see another 2 base all in fest in the next season so some slight defense buffs would help this shitty meta
Maybe slightly reduced range for WP and slight shield damage for Cyclone—at least then the Cyclone can serve as a slightly more sturdy unit against early aggression & defend WP?
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.
Another High IQ poster
But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP.
Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are.
I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.
I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup.
Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place.
I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws.
Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players.
On June 12 2019 11:49 WeakOwl wrote: Make widow mines not require an upgrade, Increase the time it takes to get blink stalkers.
Stealth on widotmines would be good, burrow time needs to stay an upgrade unless you want to bust tvz. Burrow mine speed is extremely strong their is a reason it takes 150/150 and armory.
On June 11 2019 04:39 Charoisaur wrote: I think Viking + 5 hp would fix the matchup and save esports
are you david kim
Is bunker being changed again?
Anyways, are we just looking for ways to make the match-ups more *fun*? Because that's subjective, and the game is already incredibly balanced at high level play: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ and if you're in lower level play, then there are other things one can focus on to improve.
I mean, people are throwing some ideas out that definitely feel more 'fun' than necessarily game-fixing, but regardless of that, it's hard to judge the game based on a single source of information (even if that source is a particularly good one).
How would you explain pros who are openly saying that PvZ is broken and there was only a single Terran in the RO8 based on that chart?
(definitely not trying to argue how good/bad Aligulac is, just playing devil's advocate)
the wasp prism is just another "mothership core".took them some years to figure out since there was no MC protoss got a late ass meta advantage in legacy of da void because.... again there was no MC so yeah thats all about the current state of protoss ,nothing wrong with warp prism but i dont think i want to see another 2 base all in fest in the next season so some slight defense buffs would help this shitty meta
Maybe slightly reduced range for WP and slight shield damage for Cyclone—at least then the Cyclone can serve as a slightly more sturdy unit against early aggression & defend WP?
Just spitballing.
nein.. i still think blizz didnt give wp range +1 back for no reason what i said is for zerg not terran and zerg...,just like artosis said has trouble in scouting and react to it so queen buff or overlord buff should be fine but for terran ???? i am telling you a protoss player warping in one billion stalkers or adepts is one billion fold moar wholesome than your daily cereals bowl but not zealots tho...not fucking zealots mannn... so nothing really too extreme coming from warp prism in this match up zealot i dont think need to be nerf cause nothing wrong about main backbone tier 1 unit being stronk tho.would like to read terran buff suggestions in this thread and OP did get the r concept right in term of buff and nerf decision
I can report a very similar feeling, and even worse winrates. I'm in M3, sporting good winrates against both T and Z (both close to 60%), yet my TvP is at 20% (not exagerating, I'm at 4 wins in 20 TvPs), leading me to having lost around 200-300 MMR points lately. And I believe I have lost the last 10 or so TvPs.
Could I play better ? Of course. But damn, I feel like I have 0 edge that I can exploit in that matchup, no aspect in which I can confidently say "As terran, I have this advantage over protoss so I can try to exploit it".
And zealots man. They're really starting to give me nightmares.
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.
Another High IQ poster
But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP.
Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are.
I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.
I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup.
Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place.
I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws.
Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players.
On June 12 2019 19:05 LoneYoShi wrote: I can report a very similar feeling, and even worse winrates. I'm in M3, sporting good winrates against both T and Z (both close to 60%), yet my TvP is at 20% (not exagerating, I'm at 4 wins in 20 TvPs), leading me to having lost around 200-300 MMR points lately. And I believe I have lost the last 10 or so TvPs.
Could I play better ? Of course. But damn, I feel like I have 0 edge that I can exploit in that matchup, no aspect in which I can confidently say "As terran, I have this advantage over protoss so I can try to exploit it".
And zealots man. They're really starting to give me nightmares.
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.
Another High IQ poster
But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP.
Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are.
I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.
I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup.
Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place.
I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws.
Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players.
Yeah I think the game has to balanced around the highest level of play, but should at least be fun to play at all the levels below that.
It’s a very difficult trick to pull off, especially if you design races in a really asymmetric manner
I’d still like the races to keep some flavour and different styles, but they should be more similar mechanically
As a perpetual switcher between Protoss and Terran it feels that Terran is too demanding mechanically, especially in micro vs Protoss isn’t mechanically demanding enough. As a robotic mechanical player (not good by any means, but I find macro cycles soothing) I get frustrated by the discrepancy all the time and switch. Either it’s too hard, or I don’t really benefit nearly as much from mechanics as a Protoss.
If warp gate was pushed way back, Protoss had better more microable gateway units (I think speed zealots would be better than charge in this regard), and other things were rebalanced the game would be better in many ways.
Speed zealots you could manually flank, you could split better against mines. Also they’d move faster than your deathball so you’d have to keep repositioning so you don’t have the lines split.
If you had gateway rallies + Chrono you’d have a Protoss macro cycle a bit equivalent to inject. Maybe you’d introduce some more strategy and decisions with chronoing your gates vs tech units and upgrades.
It would be a big change to do initially but the game would be way easier to balance after that, IMO anyway.
If anyone is sad enough to go and check I’ve said these things for 7/8 years haha, so nothing new there. As it stands, possibly because I took a big break from the game and scene for various non-SC reasons, I think the game is in a pretty good and interesting state overall, but that’s absolutely in spite of warp gate.
To me it’s borderline miraculous that the game has been relatively balanced for so long with that existing in the early game. Outside of being used to it, or it being part of Protoss identity does anyone actually like the mechanic? I’d be curious to know.
Oy, speed zealots. How about I use marauders, hmm, I wonder...
Also gateway production is almost identical to the Terran production. You build buildings and then you build stuff from the buildings which marches to the waypoint while you can queue the units in there. Where's the Zerg aspecT? (unless you wanna return the older chrono which was nerfed for a reason)
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.
Another High IQ poster
But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP.
Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are.
I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.
I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup.
Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place.
I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws.
Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players.
High IQ reply.
Sometimes it's not necessary a balance issue, sometimes it's just certain people struggle with certain matchup.
My main is Protoss and I'm around 50% win rate in PVT. (Low-Mid master as well)
Some games I get picked apart from the Terran drops. Some games I just simply can't react fast enough to widow mine drops which cause game ending damage. Is it frustrating to play? Yes, but not unbalance. I just don't have the same skill/reaction time as I did a few years ago (no one beats father time)
But when I play my off race (terran/zerg) I have a 70% in both TVP and ZVP. Why? I'm guessing because I know the weakness of protoss and I exploit that. So all this whining and crying about toss OP is just silly and a joke.
Some people have high win % some have below average win% in certain matchup. At the end it all evens out.
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.
Another High IQ poster
But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP.
Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are.
I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.
I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup.
Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place.
I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws.
Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players.
High IQ reply.
Sometimes it's not necessary a balance issue, sometimes it's just certain people struggle with certain matchup.
My main is Protoss and I'm around 50% win rate in PVT. (Low-Mid master as well)
Some games I get picked apart from the Terran drops. Some games I just simply can't react fast enough to widow mine drops which cause game ending damage. Is it frustrating to play? Yes, but not unbalance. I just don't have the same skill/reaction time as I did a few years ago (no one beats father time)
But when I play my off race (terran/zerg) I have a 70% in both TVP and ZVP. Why? I'm guessing because I know the weakness of protoss and I exploit that. So all this whining and crying about toss OP is just silly and a joke.
Some people have high win % some have below average win% in certain matchup. At the end it all evens out.
Isn't there separate MMR for different race? plus without sample size it doesn't really mean anything.
The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates.
Right, so this is a game design problem.
Yet all of the solutions I've seen are straight nerfs to Protoss. Any serious solution would have a compensatory Protoss buff if it was nerfing Protoss, or make some other change.
And that is why people need to get real about this. This is just like when Blizzard took away Khaydarin Amulet or nerfed the Adepts. At the time PvT win rate was ~50% and Protoss tanked after. Was the change necessary for game design purposes? Sure, but it destroyed game balance and led to Blizzard having to do compensatory buffs to Protoss later or nerfs to other races.
A real solution takes balance into view using objective numbers and qualitative analysis, not tiny data sets and anecdotal evidence.
Sadly, at this point the game is full of frustration because Blizzard didn't heed the basic tenets of modern game design. The worst offender, the MSC, was thankfully removed, but we still have Widow Mines, Swarm Hosts, ect... the game is filled with anti-patterns, there is so much power without game play.
I think most of the people who pushed for big changes and wrote up huge articles regarding game design left long ago.
On June 12 2019 23:20 deacon.frost wrote: Oy, speed zealots. How about I use marauders, hmm, I wonder...
Also gateway production is almost identical to the Terran production. You build buildings and then you build stuff from the buildings which marches to the waypoint while you can queue the units in there. Where's the Zerg aspecT? (unless you wanna return the older chrono which was nerfed for a reason)
Protoss use gateways? :S
Chrono has never been nerfed outside of timing attacks and cheeses, basically all of which revolve around warp gate in some manner
I’d absolutely take manlots over chargelots because they’d have a ton more versatility. Speedlings have no nifty abilities outside of being fast and there’s a lot you can do with them.
It’s a personal thing I guess, when I say macro more like Zerg I mean there’s a kind of rhythm and groove to injecting, spreading creep rallying and moving your army about that feels pretty good when you get into it, Terran with mulling and setting rallies, jumping to your rally and pulling those units etc.
Protoss I don’t feel has that kind of groove, but that’s just my personal taste. I enjoy the masochism of macroing in Brood War too, but a lot of people don’t
I don't play this game as often as I used to. But I am pretty against buffing the siege tank, I really don't want mirrors to become nothing but tank/vikings again. I'd rather see something else buffed or nerfed. Nor do I really have any good input here for outside of Warp prism probably needs a nerf.
During the China Team Tournament final, the caster scboy said they heard news from balance team and discuss with them and some players that a new balance patch is coming, which Protss would be nerfed as "the greatest in history", and there will be an "epic buff" for Terran. I have no idea how "greatest" or "epic" would be, and we shall see.
On June 13 2019 02:14 pzlama333 wrote: During the China Team Tournament final, the caster scboy said they heard news from balance team and discuss with them and some players that a new balance patch is coming, which Protss would be nerfed as "the greatest in history", and there will be an "epic buff" for Terran. I have no idea how "greatest" or "epic" would be, and we shall see.
On June 13 2019 02:14 pzlama333 wrote: During the China Team Tournament final, the caster scboy said they heard news from balance team and discuss with them and some players that a new balance patch is coming, which Protss would be nerfed as "the greatest in history", and there will be an "epic buff" for Terran. I have no idea how "greatest" or "epic" would be, and we shall see.
Source?
Well, they said so during the stream, and it could be found at https://www.bilibili.com/video/av55317967/?p=2, around 20:00 to 22:00, but they spoke Chinese and I doubt that foreigner would understand it. There is no writing confirmation from any other source yet, and all the Chinese viewers are curious to know what the change may be, and there are already someone begin to discuss the potential changes in Chinese community.