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The main thing that's wrong with protoss now is prism pickup range + zealot strength. I'm surprised no one is talking about zealot strength while it's been consistently buffed since LOTV. The charge damage, the charge cost, the overall speed of the unit have been buffed to the point where 10 zealots in enemy production require 0 micro/attention from the protoss player while dealing insane amounts of damage. It doesn't pose as much trouble in frontal fights, but boy does it makes protoss harass stronger with prisms. Prism pickup range has always been an extraordinarily idiotic idea. It's like blizzard looked at liquidHero's prism micro in WOL and said "isn't this cool? What if every protoss could do that with 5% of his skill?". 6 range is absolutely insane too, it basically gives blink to immortals/colossi/archons.
I think blizz should make charge 150/150 and remove the 8 charge damage, and remove prism pickup range : make it a robo bay upgrade and only 4 range. Then if protoss struggles too much maybe make the oracle light again, since armored tag + cyclones make them quite useless.
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I think for the warp prism, one change could be that you could reduce the pick up range to the "normal" previous one, when it's in Umbrella mode, so you have to choose and commit your WP, if you want to use for micro (higher pick up range) or for reinforcement (edit: that's more about PvZ immortal all-in though). Additionally, we could also increase the time needed to change between the two modes.
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I like that Warp Prism now has a lot of micro potential, and many memorable moments were created with it. But when Warp Prism shows up in your main base and delivers a small army of zealots right away... it doesn't feel right. Zealots used to be not so good, so big warp-ins could be good or bad. Now it's always good. They trade well and draw so much attention from terran player. Here is my idea of how WP could be changed: - If warp-in gets cancelled, units will be wasted.You know, teleportation process can be dangerous. Personlly, I really like this idea. WP won't lose any of its functionalities but careless use will have potential of failure. Now you risk only 200 minerals and that's way too little, considering how much of a threat this unit is. If you don't want to risk, you can use observers, illusions or revelations. Seems fair to me.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On June 11 2019 15:40 ordeal11 wrote:Show nested quote +The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance meta is based around WP. Well no, in what meta is Protoss not reinforcing their army with GW units?
Current meta just doesn't get there, especially in PvZ, but the process is that you take with your army a warp prism for reinforcements even in the late game. An energy based warp ins require a pylon AND A GATEWAY, near your army which heavily nerfs reinforcements. GW units are shitty because of the instant warp ins near the army based on the WP. It's not about meta.
While I don't mind changing this we need to address this fact too.
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On June 11 2019 04:56 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 03:30 SSNYC77 wrote:On June 11 2019 03:11 deacon.frost wrote:On June 11 2019 01:55 yyltyler wrote: This PvT recorded 53% win rate in season 2, 43% in season 1, below 50% in WCS spring, below 50% in super tournament (I didn’t count qualifiers)
Why do all the suggestions involve nerfing protoss in the matchup when it is clearly not overpowered judging by the numbers? If anything, the number is tilted in terran’s favour (though I think it is balanced) I don’t get why PvT is a tragedy.
If something needs to be fixed it is PvZ. All the recent tournaments record above 50% protoss win rate by a large margin, including super tournament, WCS and GSL. RO12 IEM - 1 Terran, eliminated. GSL ST 1T 7P, for the first time in history we broke the record and made a new history record with 7 people of the same race in the RO8. This broke GOMTvT and BLInfestor era. BW included according to many. Code S RO16 - 8P, 4T 4Z. Those are 3 top tournaments with the top players(Except Classic @ IEM) without proper Terran representation. The only saving grace of Terrans was Maru in the Code S and that's not happening either. Maybe that's the reason? 1 or 2 tournaments can be an exception, 3 tournaments? How long will we close eyes? What was the most zergs ever in top8/16? Looking at purely the Korean tournaments The current era: ST 2019 1 - Ro16: 9P, 2T, 5Z, Ro8: 7P, 1Z (Note: I think it's worthwhile to point out that a large racial number in a prior round will often follow into the subsequent rounds, so it's not unusual to see a large number of P in the Ro8. However, 7P in a ro8 is quite strange) GSL - Ro16: 8P, 4T, 4Z, Ro8: 5P, 1T, 2Z (For an era where one race is stronger than another, 5 of any race in the Ro8 is quite common, though 8 in the round of 16 was among the higher ones overall, though lower in the bigger imbalanced tournaments) The purported Z-favoured era (Note: I really don't know when this era started, but whenever it was, it was really quite short, as it lasted from around mid-2012 to early-2013, and then we switched to Heart of the Swarm) 2012 GSL 2 - Ro16: 7P, 7T, 2Z, Ro8: 5P, 3T (This was the season of the famous MVP/Squirtle finals, and it happened right before I think the famous Broodlord/Infestor era, and this season is rather striking when compared to how people tend to remember 2012 as being about the Broodlord/Infestor time) 2012 GSL 5 - Ro16: 2P, 6T, 8Z, Ro8: 1P, 3T, 4Z (This season was the infamous "IMBA, IMBA, IMBA" note from Ryung, and even with a ZvZ finals, it still only had 4Z in the ro8, though it did have 8Z in the ro16) 2012 Blizzard Cup - Ro10: 4P, 1T, 5Z, Ro6: 1P, 5Z (This tournament was a final of finals of sort, and it also had a strange Ro10, which was rarely, if ever, seen in a premier tournament ever again) 2013 GSL 1 - Ro16: 3P, 5T, 8Z, Ro8: 2P, 2T, 2Z (Again, despite having a ZvZ finals, it had relatively fewer Zs in the Ro8/16 compared to more imbalanced seasons. Also, this was the final GSL before the HotS switch) The infamous GOMTvT era 2011 GSL January - Ro16: 4P, 9T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 4T, 2Z (Interestingly, despite having 9T in the ro16, there were only 4T in the ro8. However, there were 3T in the ro4, and it was a TvT finals) 2011 GSL ST - Ro16: 1P, 9T, 6Z, Ro8: 1P, 6T, 1Z (This tournament tied for the most T in the ro8. Also, of note is this had 4T in the Ro4) 2011 GSL August - Ro16: 4P, 9T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 5T, 1Z (This tournament again had a TvT finals) 2011 GSL October - Ro16: 1P, 10T, 5Z, Ro8: 6T, 2Z (This was one of the few tournaments noted in this list where one race did not show up in the ro8, the other one being in 2012 season 2. Also of note, this was the largest number of a single racial group I found in the ro16, and it also had 6T in the ro8. Once more, it had 4T from the ro4 on) 2011 GSL November - Ro16: 5P, 8T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 5T, 1Z (Balance had obviously shifted at this point, and there were more races in the Ro8/Ro4, despite the overrepresentation of T in the Ro16/8).
Not only has there never been 7 players of the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 premier Korean tournament (until the last GSL Super Tournament), there was never 7 players of the same race in the quarterfinals of BW.
If you include BW, that's about 20 years of Starcraft where there was never 7 players of the same race in the quarterfinals of a Korean premier tournament. But that record was broken in the GSL Super Tournament with 7 Protoss in the quarterfinals.
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Warp-prism are obviously too good for their cost, either nerf them or make them 100/100. The risk/reward ratio is really off for that unit.
Disruptor could lose 1 range so that tank vs disruptor fight becomes more balanced.
HT could have their supply increased to 3 since Protoss is too supply effecient in the late game.
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Warp Prism pick up range doesn't need nerfed but it should be required to research it at Robo Bay. So early game Warp prism picks up like medivac i.e. units must be directly under it. Then you can research the pick up range at Robo Bay for greater late game harrassment.
Widow mines should be cloaked when burrowed period and not require the upgrade to be cloaked. So the old widow mine. This would punish protoss for delaying detection in the early game.
I think this should do it. The only other thing I would like to see but is unrealistic is a nerf to Storm radius but this nerf is probably just because I suck.
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On June 11 2019 18:15 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 15:40 ordeal11 wrote:The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance meta is based around WP. Well no, in what meta is Protoss not reinforcing their army with GW units? Current meta just doesn't get there, especially in PvZ, but the process is that you take with your army a warp prism for reinforcements even in the late game. An energy based warp ins require a pylon AND A GATEWAY, near your army which heavily nerfs reinforcements. GW units are shitty because of the instant warp ins near the army based on the WP. It's not about meta. While I don't mind changing this we need to address this fact too.
I don't see it as a big deal, I'm not saying it's NOT super OP, but so is nydus or bc's port. Since every P became professional juggler, I just feel like players struggle with this META, I don't think we should nerf WP warpins since it was unchanged since WoL (feel free to prove me wrong). I would go for WP speed/pick up range nerf/upgrade,
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So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.
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HT could have their supply increased to 3 since Protoss is too supply effecient in the late game.
Honestly ? Zerg has free units, can overpopulation with tricks and terran can suicide all scv on late game.
In the meanwhile i accept, but increase ghost and liberator population too.
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Northern Ireland20783 Posts
On June 11 2019 10:56 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 07:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 11 2019 07:19 FrkFrJss wrote:On June 11 2019 07:14 SC2RandomPotatoe wrote:I have an example when new designers come in and they say like “it’s only about the data, not what people think.” When they say that, my extreme example is “say the numbers are 50/50 but everyone thinks the balance sucks right now—is that a good place to be in?” Obviously not, right? So my response to that is, yeah, then the game’s not balanced. That's very true. I think my only fear is that in trying to change the perception of balance (as well as the actual balance itself), we end up shooting off into the other direction. An example I like to bring up is the 2014 Blink era. Truly, it was an imbalanced time, but after the nerfs to P and buffs to T, we had as many TvT finals during 2014 as PvP finals in addition to an abysmal PvT winrate. It's a dangerous road to go down, people can be idiots and their perceptions can be well, well off. Everyone has their biases, and I'm no exception. I suck, suck, SUCK with Zerg, I'm bad at reacting to things smartly in game (to the degree Zergs have to anyway), Protoss was my main, at one stage in WoL my Terran was as good as my Protoss, actually probably better and my TvP was my best matchup. From my experiences all the races have certain difficulties and strengths, they appeal to different mindsets and styles, or mechanical or strategic skills. As a long time WC3 player for example, actually micro was, and still is absolutely my strength. So I was best at PvP in the 4 gate era because (on average) my micro was better than the competition, I initially switched to Terran not because I thought they were strong but because outside of early game small engagemeents, I didn't think I got enough out of being good at micro (relatively) with Protoss and Terran fit better, and at that time that proved to be largely correct. For every 'oh my units require so much micro to be good', on the other side there are the occasions where your opponent (or you if you offace) wishes you could actually do more micro with your units. I mean it sounds a bit BM to put it in such a way, but there's a segment of the Terran playerbase who think that because they have to micro bio (often badly tbh) that it's unfair and that the game needs to be rebalanced because 'Terran master race' or whatever. This isn't to say the game is great balance wise currently, but the reality is that neither Protoss or Zerg, outside of smaller early game stuff, or lategame technical comps can possibly get as much out of their units from good micro as Terran can, it's always been the other side of the coin - effective A move comps that you can't really get more out of vs incredibly microable comps that are either stomped or stomp depending on how good your micro is. is this really the case though? I would say that well microed terran late game is even at best with protoss air armada. yamoto on bcs is prity good, but toss have started to figure out counter play to the yamato and jump away strats. Mainly just pouncing on terran as soon as they get collsi+ storm and straight up ending the game id say any tech below that and terran army only goes even with a toss army if terran is fully set up and sieged and toss fights into it. vs zerg I totally agree the cost efficiency can just get absurd but vs toss Im less convinced. I find all those super late game comps with multiple spellcasters are super hard to control well with all races, although I tend to hate air balls in SC2 with a passion but that’s a rant for another day :p
I don’t think my post was very good in retrospect, I wasn’t really arguing anything about balance per se, just the dangers of balancing around people’s perceptions and who moans loudest.
Getting ‘A move Protoss’ for 9 years or w/e on ladder, well yeah what else can I do? Individually charge my zealots? As someone who plays both races and whose best matchup is PvT and TvP respectively I can agree with people getting frustrated, at the time I felt raising the skill floor and ceiling with stock Protoss units would have been by far the best way to go. Terran players feel less frustrated at being A-moved, Protoss players get less frustrated at only being able to A-move, and at the pro level we see more flashy cool stuff that Protoss can do. It’s not as bad today but in WoL especially Protoss were just locked in to deathballs that weren’t fun or engaging to control.
Some people are more biased than others, some want their own race to be better so they can win more, some people just want a good state of Starcraft as a game (whatever that happens to look like), and the angrier and most vocal people tend to be the former, so I’m glad Blizzard don’t just bend to popular opinion.
On the other hand Blizzard are doing a terrible job at communicating lately what is up with balance, what they think etc.
I don’t see why they don’t even just use people already on their payroll as part of the process. Perhaps they do but we hear nothing about it. Guys like Rotti and DemusliM who have lots of contacts with other pros, are decent players themselves and are already paid for WCS gigs, could they not serve as some kind of conduit between the pro scene and the balance team?
You have a website like Team Liquid with all that great content and no-lifers like myself with over 10k posts, for absolutely free, never mind r/Starcraft
Blizzard can’t find one dude to post and interact on either place even intermittently? It just seems a crazy false economy to not do that when your game is now free, you pump money into a tournament scene, and people watching tournaments, buying skins and all that other stuff lives and dies on people thinking the game is in a good state.
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Northern Ireland20783 Posts
Warp Prism needs a nerf, I still don’t think juggling matters that much balance wise, although it’s kinda dumb.
The real crazy juggling you see is when a Protoss has won and is styling, or 100% dead with nothing else to focus on
I want prisms to have a risk-reward, especially against Terran. You should be made to pay a bill for the warpin. As it stands you can fly in, do a giant zealot warpin, Terran moves a ton of bio that’s nearby so you cancel it, or targets your prism and it dies.
As it stands you don’t lose any money bar replacing your prism for warp-ins that are cancelled
You have a cheap, flying unit that can warp an army right on top of production that must be respected, with little real economic commitment, that requires Terran to make static defences and relocate army to push away.
I think a nerf that Protoss cancelling their warp costs say, 50% of resources, and an opponent killing the prism costs 100% is worth exploring.
It might not make a huge difference with really good play that circumvents defences smartly, but it would definitely add a cost to sloppy ‘I’ll keep blindly trying this until it works because it’s stupid not to’ kind of play.
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Northern Ireland20783 Posts
On June 11 2019 19:50 Syn Harvest wrote: Warp Prism pick up range doesn't need nerfed but it should be required to research it at Robo Bay. So early game Warp prism picks up like medivac i.e. units must be directly under it. Then you can research the pick up range at Robo Bay for greater late game harrassment.
Widow mines should be cloaked when burrowed period and not require the upgrade to be cloaked. So the old widow mine. This would punish protoss for delaying detection in the early game.
I think this should do it. The only other thing I would like to see but is unrealistic is a nerf to Storm radius but this nerf is probably just because I suck. Not sure on the opinion of others, mine drops are already way way more annoying to defend than execute without being instantly dead if you don’t have detection. I quite like the state they are in now.
It also pins back Protoss aggression and harassment options to an unreasonable degree IMO, if you went Stargate you have to pull your Oracle back from doing harassment, or pump out an extra obs, plus needing units back too.
If Protoss 100% need detection or they die to a build that comes from the standard Terran production setup, there’s also bound to be a bunch of exploitative timings to counter the Protoss standard ‘anti mine drop’ build or whatever
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On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish. Mate, stop trying to reason these people. It's all in vain. Let them sink in their own bs. Blizzard won't do anything radical just because of bunch of whiners. My guess is that the next patch will include an infestor nerf and some irrelevant toss tweak/nerf to silence low-leaguers.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On June 11 2019 20:29 ordeal11 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 18:15 deacon.frost wrote:On June 11 2019 15:40 ordeal11 wrote:The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance meta is based around WP. Well no, in what meta is Protoss not reinforcing their army with GW units? Current meta just doesn't get there, especially in PvZ, but the process is that you take with your army a warp prism for reinforcements even in the late game. An energy based warp ins require a pylon AND A GATEWAY, near your army which heavily nerfs reinforcements. GW units are shitty because of the instant warp ins near the army based on the WP. It's not about meta. While I don't mind changing this we need to address this fact too. I don't see it as a big deal, I'm not saying it's NOT super OP, but so is nydus or bc's port. Since every P became professional juggler, I just feel like players struggle with this META, I don't think we should nerf WP warpins since it was unchanged since WoL (feel free to prove me wrong). I would go for WP speed/pick up range nerf/upgrade, Dude, I was reacting to the ENERGY requirements of WP, that you can't warp more than several units because the energy would be depleted. This is a huge nerf to gateway warp ins in the lategame.
Again, let's imagine you can warp in 6 unts and that's it. The whole point of GW units being weak is that you can warp them in ANYWHERE in ANY NUMBERS. If you limit the numbers, once the meta is over, lategame armies are nerfed heavily. Because stalkers/chargelots are in the army to protect the tech units which are the walking bastions of lost hopes and dreams. That's why Storm is strong, that's why colossus is strong, that's why carrier was so strong(and kinda still is if you can get the interceptors out on, I don't know, rocks and keep them out ). With energy based WP this idea is out of order, you need to walk the units from the nearest warping point. Pylon warp ins were heavily nerfed, so you need to reinforce it with a gateway which has a building time that's not exactly short.
The whole point of my post is that with this nerf there has to be re-evaluation of stalker/chargelot(even maybe archon) and giving them some strength in the lategame, as this is a big nerf with the current unit strength.
IMO This is the reason Starbow moved the warp in mechanic into the lategame, because it's a very bad mechanic to balance.
Edit> I see thje reason and I agree, lategame suprise warp-in of 20 zealots(even 2 DTs) in the main is stupid and should be fixed but at the same we need to acknowledge what I wrote. It's a trap inside of another trap Maybe Trap can solve this
On June 11 2019 21:20 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish. Mate, stop trying to reason these people. It's all in vain. Let them sink in their own bs. Blizzard won't do anything radical just because of bunch of whiners. My guess is that the next patch will include an infestor nerf and some irrelevant toss tweak/nerf to silence low-leaguers. And how do you silence the pros who are whining? it's not just lowleagures who are disappointed and whining. And if you mean it and not just troll/be mean - address the Terran issue and numbers in tournament. I believe we are 4 months from Katowice which was the first non-Terran tournament. How much time do we need to see the meta settled and be balanced?
Edit> it's actually quite easy to dismiss lowleaguers. Up until high masters you can play anything you want and if you have the mechanics to pull it. That's why some people can turtle to victory while pros die when they try it. That's why some people were able to make it with cannon rushes into GM while pros didn't (and no, Has isn't pure cannon rusher). Almost everyone on this page knows this, there's no point to balance things around lower leagues unless you want to address people massively leaving. But we currently have an issue in the Korean PvZ and PvT. Current numbers aren't a coincidence when they repeat for several months
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what's that, terrible balance ideas on TL? is it tuesday?
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Northern Ireland20783 Posts
You could still get around that by just removing the energy requirement with an upgrade. It’s not really elegant I suppose,
I’d like to see them experiment with some kind of nerf specifically around timings vZ, that you can ‘un-nerf’ via an upgrade, so you don’t have to rebalance too much at once and can test stuff in isolation to see what they affect.
I feel we’re feeling the effects of Blizzard never really addressing other core issues, and giving us Protoss a stronger and stronger warp prism to compensate to the degree our race is utterly dependent on it
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On June 11 2019 22:25 Wombat_NI wrote: You could still get around that by just removing the energy requirement with an upgrade. It’s not really elegant I suppose,
I’d like to see them experiment with some kind of nerf specifically around timings vZ, that you can ‘un-nerf’ via an upgrade, so you don’t have to rebalance too much at once and can test stuff in isolation to see what they affect.
I feel we’re feeling the effects of Blizzard never really addressing other core issues, and giving us Protoss a stronger and stronger warp prism to compensate to the degree our race is utterly dependent on it
Yeah, and it is unfortunate to be honest, they did acknowledge the fact that warping mechanic was a problem by nerfing pylone warping which was a step in the good direction, but they gave such a buff to the warp prism as a micro unit during battle and as an harass unit that they aggravated the problem.
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Im reading some of the sillier suggestions presented by a few of you folks, and MAN am I glad the people proposing them aren't on the balance team.
Ill take a small nerf to warp prism OR zealots OR buffs to other races, but some of you guys wanna make the Warp prism 200/100, make the warp in only possible after upgrade, nerf movement speed, remove charge, make immos build 10 seconds slower AND make widow mines invis without upgrade again.
I think theres a lot of scarred players who just wanna delete toss from the game
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On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote: So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.
Another High IQ poster
But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP.
Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are.
I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.
User was temp banned for this post.
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