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On June 11 2019 23:43 NbaLover wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote:
So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish. Another High IQ poster But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP. Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are. I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.
I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup.
Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place.
I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss
it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws.
Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players.
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Make widow mines not require an upgrade, Increase the time it takes to get blink stalkers, lower the gas cost of liberators.
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On June 12 2019 11:49 WeakOwl wrote:
Make widow mines not require an upgrade, Increase the time it takes to get blink stalkers.
Stealth on widotmines would be good, burrow time needs to stay an upgrade unless you want to bust tvz. Burrow mine speed is extremely strong their is a reason it takes 150/150 and armory.
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On June 12 2019 11:25 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2019 11:12 seemsgood wrote:On June 11 2019 05:39 renaissanceMAN wrote:On June 11 2019 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 11 2019 04:57 renaissanceMAN wrote:On June 11 2019 04:39 Charoisaur wrote:
I think Viking + 5 hp would fix the matchup and save esports are you david kim Is bunker being changed again? Anyways, are we just looking for ways to make the match-ups more *fun*? Because that's subjective, and the game is already incredibly balanced at high level play: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ and if you're in lower level play, then there are other things one can focus on to improve. I mean, people are throwing some ideas out that definitely feel more 'fun' than necessarily game-fixing, but regardless of that, it's hard to judge the game based on a single source of information (even if that source is a particularly good one). How would you explain pros who are openly saying that PvZ is broken and there was only a single Terran in the RO8 based on that chart? (definitely not trying to argue how good/bad Aligulac is, just playing devil's advocate) the wasp prism is just another "mothership core".took them some years to figure out since there was no MC protoss got a late ass meta advantage in legacy of da void because.... again there was no MC so yeah thats all about the current state of protoss ,nothing wrong with warp prism but i dont think i want to see another 2 base all in fest in the next season so some slight defense buffs would help this shitty meta Maybe slightly reduced range for WP and slight shield damage for Cyclone—at least then the Cyclone can serve as a slightly more sturdy unit against early aggression & defend WP? Just spitballing.
nein..
i still think blizz didnt give wp range +1 back for no reason
what i said is for zerg not terran and zerg...,just like artosis said has trouble in scouting and react to it so queen buff or overlord buff should be fine
but for terran ???? i am telling you a protoss player warping in one billion stalkers or adepts is one billion fold moar wholesome than your daily cereals bowl but not zealots tho...not fucking zealots mannn...
so nothing really too extreme coming from warp prism in this match up
zealot i dont think need to be nerf cause nothing wrong about main backbone tier 1 unit being stronk tho.would like to read terran buff suggestions in this thread and OP did get the r concept right in term of buff and nerf decision
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I can report a very similar feeling, and even worse winrates.
I'm in M3, sporting good winrates against both T and Z (both close to 60%), yet my TvP is at 20% (not exagerating, I'm at 4 wins in 20 TvPs), leading me to having lost around 200-300 MMR points lately. And I believe I have lost the last 10 or so TvPs.
Could I play better ? Of course. But damn, I feel like I have 0 edge that I can exploit in that matchup, no aspect in which I can confidently say "As terran, I have this advantage over protoss so I can try to exploit it".
And zealots man. They're really starting to give me nightmares.
On June 12 2019 11:31 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 23:43 NbaLover wrote:On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote:
So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish. Another High IQ poster But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP. Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are. I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills. I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup. Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place. I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws. Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players.
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Northern Ireland11120 Posts
On June 12 2019 19:05 LoneYoShi wrote:I can report a very similar feeling, and even worse winrates. I'm in M3, sporting good winrates against both T and Z (both close to 60%), yet my TvP is at 20% (not exagerating, I'm at 4 wins in 20 TvPs), leading me to having lost around 200-300 MMR points lately. And I believe I have lost the last 10 or so TvPs. Could I play better ? Of course. But damn, I feel like I have 0 edge that I can exploit in that matchup, no aspect in which I can confidently say "As terran, I have this advantage over protoss so I can try to exploit it". And zealots man. They're really starting to give me nightmares. Show nested quote +On June 12 2019 11:31 washikie wrote:On June 11 2019 23:43 NbaLover wrote:On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote:
So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish. Another High IQ poster But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP. Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are. I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills. I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup. Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place. I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws. Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players.
Yeah I think the game has to balanced around the highest level of play, but should at least be fun to play at all the levels below that.
It’s a very difficult trick to pull off, especially if you design races in a really asymmetric manner
I’d still like the races to keep some flavour and different styles, but they should be more similar mechanically
As a perpetual switcher between Protoss and Terran it feels that Terran is too demanding mechanically, especially in micro vs Protoss isn’t mechanically demanding enough. As a robotic mechanical player (not good by any means, but I find macro cycles soothing) I get frustrated by the discrepancy all the time and switch. Either it’s too hard, or I don’t really benefit nearly as much from mechanics as a Protoss.
If warp gate was pushed way back, Protoss had better more microable gateway units (I think speed zealots would be better than charge in this regard), and other things were rebalanced the game would be better in many ways.
Speed zealots you could manually flank, you could split better against mines. Also they’d move faster than your deathball so you’d have to keep repositioning so you don’t have the lines split.
If you had gateway rallies + Chrono you’d have a Protoss macro cycle a bit equivalent to inject. Maybe you’d introduce some more strategy and decisions with chronoing your gates vs tech units and upgrades.
It would be a big change to do initially but the game would be way easier to balance after that, IMO anyway.
If anyone is sad enough to go and check I’ve said these things for 7/8 years haha, so nothing new there. As it stands, possibly because I took a big break from the game and scene for various non-SC reasons, I think the game is in a pretty good and interesting state overall, but that’s absolutely in spite of warp gate.
To me it’s borderline miraculous that the game has been relatively balanced for so long with that existing in the early game. Outside of being used to it, or it being part of Protoss identity does anyone actually like the mechanic? I’d be curious to know.
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Oy, speed zealots. How about I use marauders, hmm, I wonder...
Also gateway production is almost identical to the Terran production. You build buildings and then you build stuff from the buildings which marches to the waypoint while you can queue the units in there. Where's the Zerg aspecT? (unless you wanna return the older chrono which was nerfed for a reason)
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On June 12 2019 11:31 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 23:43 NbaLover wrote:On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote:
So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish. Another High IQ poster But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP. Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are. I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills. I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup. Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place. I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws. Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players.
High IQ reply.
Sometimes it's not necessary a balance issue, sometimes it's just certain people struggle with certain matchup.
My main is Protoss and I'm around 50% win rate in PVT. (Low-Mid master as well)
Some games I get picked apart from the Terran drops. Some games I just simply can't react fast enough to widow mine drops which cause game ending damage. Is it frustrating to play? Yes, but not unbalance. I just don't have the same skill/reaction time as I did a few years ago (no one beats father time)
But when I play my off race (terran/zerg) I have a 70% in both TVP and ZVP. Why? I'm guessing because I know the weakness of protoss and I exploit that. So all this whining and crying about toss OP is just silly and a joke.
Some people have high win % some have below average win% in certain matchup. At the end it all evens out.
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United Kingdom10314 Posts
On June 12 2019 23:42 NbaLover wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2019 11:31 washikie wrote:On June 11 2019 23:43 NbaLover wrote:On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote:
So the point is:
1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.
2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.
3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.
So let´s get all together:
Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!
I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish. Another High IQ poster But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP. Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are. I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills. I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup. Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place. I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws. Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players. High IQ reply. Sometimes it's not necessary a balance issue, sometimes it's just certain people struggle with certain matchup. My main is Protoss and I'm around 50% win rate in PVT. (Low-Mid master as well) Some games I get picked apart from the Terran drops. Some games I just simply can't react fast enough to widow mine drops which cause game ending damage. Is it frustrating to play? Yes, but not unbalance. I just don't have the same skill/reaction time as I did a few years ago (no one beats father time) But when I play my off race (terran/zerg) I have a 70% in both TVP and ZVP. Why? I'm guessing because I know the weakness of protoss and I exploit that. So all this whining and crying about toss OP is just silly and a joke. Some people have high win % some have below average win% in certain matchup. At the end it all evens out.
Isn't there separate MMR for different race? plus without sample size it doesn't really mean anything.
Apart from that good post.
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On June 12 2019 07:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates.
Right, so this is a game design problem.
Yet all of the solutions I've seen are straight nerfs to Protoss. Any serious solution would have a compensatory Protoss buff if it was nerfing Protoss, or make some other change.
And that is why people need to get real about this. This is just like when Blizzard took away Khaydarin Amulet or nerfed the Adepts. At the time PvT win rate was ~50% and Protoss tanked after. Was the change necessary for game design purposes? Sure, but it destroyed game balance and led to Blizzard having to do compensatory buffs to Protoss later or nerfs to other races.
A real solution takes balance into view using objective numbers and qualitative analysis, not tiny data sets and anecdotal evidence.
Sadly, at this point the game is full of frustration because Blizzard didn't heed the basic tenets of modern game design. The worst offender, the MSC, was thankfully removed, but we still have Widow Mines, Swarm Hosts, ect... the game is filled with anti-patterns, there is so much power without game play.
I think most of the people who pushed for big changes and wrote up huge articles regarding game design left long ago.
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Northern Ireland11120 Posts
On June 12 2019 23:20 deacon.frost wrote:
Oy, speed zealots. How about I use marauders, hmm, I wonder...
Also gateway production is almost identical to the Terran production. You build buildings and then you build stuff from the buildings which marches to the waypoint while you can queue the units in there. Where's the Zerg aspecT? (unless you wanna return the older chrono which was nerfed for a reason)
Protoss use gateways? :S
Chrono has never been nerfed outside of timing attacks and cheeses, basically all of which revolve around warp gate in some manner
I’d absolutely take manlots over chargelots because they’d have a ton more versatility. Speedlings have no nifty abilities outside of being fast and there’s a lot you can do with them.
It’s a personal thing I guess, when I say macro more like Zerg I mean there’s a kind of rhythm and groove to injecting, spreading creep rallying and moving your army about that feels pretty good when you get into it, Terran with mulling and setting rallies, jumping to your rally and pulling those units etc.
Protoss I don’t feel has that kind of groove, but that’s just my personal taste. I enjoy the masochism of macroing in Brood War too, but a lot of people don’t
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Personally my suggestion would be:
* Make warp prism warp-in speed be the the same as non-super pylon (imo that would be sufficient to make all those early PvZ pushes easily holdable)
* Nerf infestor (lategame PvZ is kind of a joke)
* Raven disable back to 75 energy
* Buff protoss in some way to compensate if necessary (probably)
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I don't play this game as often as I used to. But I am pretty against buffing the siege tank, I really don't want mirrors to become nothing but tank/vikings again. I'd rather see something else buffed or nerfed. Nor do I really have any good input here for outside of Warp prism probably needs a nerf.
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During the China Team Tournament final, the caster scboy said they heard news from balance team and discuss with them and some players that a new balance patch is coming, which Protss would be nerfed as "the greatest in history", and there will be an "epic buff" for Terran. I have no idea how "greatest" or "epic" would be, and we shall see.
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On June 13 2019 02:14 pzlama333 wrote:
During the China Team Tournament final, the caster scboy said they heard news from balance team and discuss with them and some players that a new balance patch is coming, which Protss would be nerfed as "the greatest in history", and there will be an "epic buff" for Terran. I have no idea how "greatest" or "epic" would be, and we shall see.
Source?
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On June 13 2019 03:34 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2019 02:14 pzlama333 wrote:
During the China Team Tournament final, the caster scboy said they heard news from balance team and discuss with them and some players that a new balance patch is coming, which Protss would be nerfed as "the greatest in history", and there will be an "epic buff" for Terran. I have no idea how "greatest" or "epic" would be, and we shall see. Source?
Well, they said so during the stream, and it could be found at https://www.bilibili.com/video/av55317967/?p=2, around 20:00 to 22:00, but they spoke Chinese and I doubt that foreigner would understand it. There is no writing confirmation from any other source yet, and all the Chinese viewers are curious to know what the change may be, and there are already someone begin to discuss the potential changes in Chinese community.
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WCS
