• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:28
CEST 13:28
KST 20:28
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall1HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Retirement From ASL17Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?12FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event16Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster14Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
What is Lactobacillus used for? The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? StarCraft Mass Recall: SC1 campaigns on SC2 thread How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports?
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event HomeStory Cup 27 (June 27-29) WardiTV Mondays SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 $200 Biweekly - StarCraft Evolution League #1
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Retirement From ASL [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall ASL20 Preliminary Maps BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread [BSL20] ProLeague LB Final - Saturday 20:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
Game Sound vs. Music: The Im…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 553 users

Some suggestions regarding the PvT tragedy - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 All
washikie
Profile Joined February 2011
United States752 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-12 02:50:23
June 12 2019 02:31 GMT
#101
On June 11 2019 23:43 NbaLover wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote:
So the point is:

1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.

2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.

3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.

So let´s get all together:

Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!

I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.


Another High IQ poster

But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP.

Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are.

I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.



I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup.

Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place.

I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss
it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws.

Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players.
"when life gives Hero lemons he makes carriers" -Artosis
WeakOwl
Profile Joined December 2018
25 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-12 02:53:34
June 12 2019 02:49 GMT
#102
Make widow mines not require an upgrade, Increase the time it takes to get blink stalkers, lower the gas cost of liberators.
washikie
Profile Joined February 2011
United States752 Posts
June 12 2019 02:52 GMT
#103
On June 12 2019 11:49 WeakOwl wrote:
Make widow mines not require an upgrade, Increase the time it takes to get blink stalkers.


Stealth on widotmines would be good, burrow time needs to stay an upgrade unless you want to bust tvz. Burrow mine speed is extremely strong their is a reason it takes 150/150 and armory.
"when life gives Hero lemons he makes carriers" -Artosis
seemsgood
Profile Joined January 2016
5527 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-12 06:06:01
June 12 2019 03:55 GMT
#104
On June 12 2019 11:25 renaissanceMAN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2019 11:12 seemsgood wrote:
On June 11 2019 05:39 renaissanceMAN wrote:
On June 11 2019 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On June 11 2019 04:57 renaissanceMAN wrote:
On June 11 2019 04:39 Charoisaur wrote:
I think Viking + 5 hp would fix the matchup and save esports


are you david kim


Is bunker being changed again?

Anyways, are we just looking for ways to make the match-ups more *fun*? Because that's subjective, and the game is already incredibly balanced at high level play: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ and if you're in lower level play, then there are other things one can focus on to improve.


I mean, people are throwing some ideas out that definitely feel more 'fun' than necessarily game-fixing, but regardless of that, it's hard to judge the game based on a single source of information (even if that source is a particularly good one).

How would you explain pros who are openly saying that PvZ is broken and there was only a single Terran in the RO8 based on that chart?

(definitely not trying to argue how good/bad Aligulac is, just playing devil's advocate)

the wasp prism is just another "mothership core".took them some years to figure out since there was no MC
protoss got a late ass meta advantage in legacy of da void because.... again there was no MC
so yeah thats all about the current state of protoss ,nothing wrong with warp prism but i dont think i want to see another 2 base all in fest in the next season so some slight defense buffs would help this shitty meta


Maybe slightly reduced range for WP and slight shield damage for Cyclone—at least then the Cyclone can serve as a slightly more sturdy unit against early aggression & defend WP?

Just spitballing.

nein..
i still think blizz didnt give wp range +1 back for no reason
what i said is for zerg not terran and zerg...,just like artosis said has trouble in scouting and react to it so queen buff or overlord buff should be fine
but for terran ???? i am telling you a protoss player warping in one billion stalkers or adepts is one billion fold moar wholesome than your daily cereals bowl but not zealots tho...not fucking zealots mannn...
so nothing really too extreme coming from warp prism in this match up
zealot i dont think need to be nerf cause nothing wrong about main backbone tier 1 unit being stronk tho.would like to read terran buff suggestions in this thread and OP did get the r concept right in term of buff and nerf decision
LoneYoShi
Profile Blog Joined June 2014
France1348 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-12 10:05:59
June 12 2019 10:05 GMT
#105
I can report a very similar feeling, and even worse winrates.
I'm in M3, sporting good winrates against both T and Z (both close to 60%), yet my TvP is at 20% (not exagerating, I'm at 4 wins in 20 TvPs), leading me to having lost around 200-300 MMR points lately. And I believe I have lost the last 10 or so TvPs.

Could I play better ? Of course. But damn, I feel like I have 0 edge that I can exploit in that matchup, no aspect in which I can confidently say "As terran, I have this advantage over protoss so I can try to exploit it".

And zealots man. They're really starting to give me nightmares.

On June 12 2019 11:31 washikie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2019 23:43 NbaLover wrote:
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote:
So the point is:

1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.

2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.

3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.

So let´s get all together:

Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!

I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.


Another High IQ poster

But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP.

Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are.

I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.



I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup.

Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place.

I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss
it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws.

Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players.

WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25013 Posts
June 12 2019 13:51 GMT
#106
On June 12 2019 19:05 LoneYoShi wrote:
I can report a very similar feeling, and even worse winrates.
I'm in M3, sporting good winrates against both T and Z (both close to 60%), yet my TvP is at 20% (not exagerating, I'm at 4 wins in 20 TvPs), leading me to having lost around 200-300 MMR points lately. And I believe I have lost the last 10 or so TvPs.

Could I play better ? Of course. But damn, I feel like I have 0 edge that I can exploit in that matchup, no aspect in which I can confidently say "As terran, I have this advantage over protoss so I can try to exploit it".

And zealots man. They're really starting to give me nightmares.

Show nested quote +
On June 12 2019 11:31 washikie wrote:
On June 11 2019 23:43 NbaLover wrote:
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote:
So the point is:

1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.

2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.

3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.

So let´s get all together:

Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!

I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.


Another High IQ poster

But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP.

Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are.

I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.



I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup.

Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place.

I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss
it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws.

Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players.


Yeah I think the game has to balanced around the highest level of play, but should at least be fun to play at all the levels below that.

It’s a very difficult trick to pull off, especially if you design races in a really asymmetric manner

I’d still like the races to keep some flavour and different styles, but they should be more similar mechanically

As a perpetual switcher between Protoss and Terran it feels that Terran is too demanding mechanically, especially in micro vs Protoss isn’t mechanically demanding enough. As a robotic mechanical player (not good by any means, but I find macro cycles soothing) I get frustrated by the discrepancy all the time and switch. Either it’s too hard, or I don’t really benefit nearly as much from mechanics as a Protoss.

If warp gate was pushed way back, Protoss had better more microable gateway units (I think speed zealots would be better than charge in this regard), and other things were rebalanced the game would be better in many ways.

Speed zealots you could manually flank, you could split better against mines. Also they’d move faster than your deathball so you’d have to keep repositioning so you don’t have the lines split.

If you had gateway rallies + Chrono you’d have a Protoss macro cycle a bit equivalent to inject. Maybe you’d introduce some more strategy and decisions with chronoing your gates vs tech units and upgrades.

It would be a big change to do initially but the game would be way easier to balance after that, IMO anyway.

If anyone is sad enough to go and check I’ve said these things for 7/8 years haha, so nothing new there. As it stands, possibly because I took a big break from the game and scene for various non-SC reasons, I think the game is in a pretty good and interesting state overall, but that’s absolutely in spite of warp gate.

To me it’s borderline miraculous that the game has been relatively balanced for so long with that existing in the early game. Outside of being used to it, or it being part of Protoss identity does anyone actually like the mechanic? I’d be curious to know.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
June 12 2019 14:20 GMT
#107
Oy, speed zealots. How about I use marauders, hmm, I wonder...

Also gateway production is almost identical to the Terran production. You build buildings and then you build stuff from the buildings which marches to the waypoint while you can queue the units in there. Where's the Zerg aspecT? (unless you wanna return the older chrono which was nerfed for a reason)
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
NbaLover
Profile Joined May 2019
24 Posts
June 12 2019 14:42 GMT
#108
On June 12 2019 11:31 washikie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2019 23:43 NbaLover wrote:
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote:
So the point is:

1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.

2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.

3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.

So let´s get all together:

Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!

I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.


Another High IQ poster

But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP.

Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are.

I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.



I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup.

Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place.

I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss
it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws.

Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players.


High IQ reply.

Sometimes it's not necessary a balance issue, sometimes it's just certain people struggle with certain matchup.

My main is Protoss and I'm around 50% win rate in PVT. (Low-Mid master as well)

Some games I get picked apart from the Terran drops. Some games I just simply can't react fast enough to widow mine drops which cause game ending damage. Is it frustrating to play? Yes, but not unbalance. I just don't have the same skill/reaction time as I did a few years ago (no one beats father time)

But when I play my off race (terran/zerg) I have a 70% in both TVP and ZVP. Why? I'm guessing because I know the weakness of protoss and I exploit that. So all this whining and crying about toss OP is just silly and a joke.

Some people have high win % some have below average win% in certain matchup. At the end it all evens out.



KelsierSC
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United Kingdom10443 Posts
June 12 2019 14:57 GMT
#109
On June 12 2019 23:42 NbaLover wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2019 11:31 washikie wrote:
On June 11 2019 23:43 NbaLover wrote:
On June 11 2019 20:31 EESCLuna wrote:
So the point is:

1st: All terrans doing tank pushes on early even on blind. So you want to improve the push that is killing protosses at 2 bases since MVP contains on 2013. Meanwhile youre enforcing 1 base 1-1-1 play and mech.

2 - Terran meta includes Raven, Oracle nerf means 3 hits to kill scv. So youre asking to simply delete all harassment options for protoss. Good idea.

3 - Focus a fucking enormous unit must be brain collapsing skill but you dont complain about focusing baneling or something against zerg.

So let´s get all together:

Improve tanks, delete harassment and let tier 3 units attack on 1-a. Great idea!

I offer you better idea: Wait for the meta to stablish.


Another High IQ poster

But don't bother to reason with these whiners. Got to blame every single protoss units for being OP.

Easier for them than looking at the mirror and realize they aren't as good/skillful as they think they are.

I feel sorry for these people, living their lives through the success/failure of their favorite players rather than trying to play/improve their own skills.



I mean yeah I’m only M3 with Terran. Can I play better yes. Does balance affect my enjoyment of the game absolutely. I feel like evrey tvz is a stomp most tvts are even and I have a 34% winrate in tvp. This makes my ladder experience wonky when I play vs Zerg I just crush them because my tvz just feels a cut above the level I play (maybe Terran is a bit op vs Zerg as well), but tvp is just really really hard. To the point that it feels like a huge achievement for me to even beat a Protoss at my rank. Overall I have about a 50/50 winrate but the distribution of those wins is heavily tied to matchup.

Can I improve definitely I’m an M3 scrub. Does the meta affect my experience in ladder definitely. If I want to climb evrey game I cross my fingers and hope for a non tvp matchup. It just does not feel like things are in a good place.

I can also speak from the offrace perspective currently my toss holds a staggering 75% winrate in tvp, this is my off race that I play ironically not my main. I’ve tried to make it harder by purposely curbing my apm to 100 from 230 and it usually feels like it makes little difference I just feels so strong if I ever play a non mirror as toss right now. When I play Protoss
it feels like evrey game is in my hands from the start and the only way I lose is that I throw, when I play Terran or Zerg vs toss I feel like I start at adisadvantage and I have to capitalize on my opponent’s throws.

Is this just a result of my non pro level of play. Probably does it affect how fun and fair the game feels, absolutely. In Sc2 you can always state if you just outplay your opponents you would win. But this does not make matches feel good or fun for those of us below the highest level of play. I think a better standard to measure the game by is at the current level of players does the matchup feel fun and fair and demanding of high skill for both players.


High IQ reply.

Sometimes it's not necessary a balance issue, sometimes it's just certain people struggle with certain matchup.

My main is Protoss and I'm around 50% win rate in PVT. (Low-Mid master as well)

Some games I get picked apart from the Terran drops. Some games I just simply can't react fast enough to widow mine drops which cause game ending damage. Is it frustrating to play? Yes, but not unbalance. I just don't have the same skill/reaction time as I did a few years ago (no one beats father time)

But when I play my off race (terran/zerg) I have a 70% in both TVP and ZVP. Why? I'm guessing because I know the weakness of protoss and I exploit that. So all this whining and crying about toss OP is just silly and a joke.

Some people have high win % some have below average win% in certain matchup. At the end it all evens out.





Isn't there separate MMR for different race? plus without sample size it doesn't really mean anything.

Apart from that good post.

Zerg for Life
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-12 15:52:14
June 12 2019 15:42 GMT
#110
On June 12 2019 07:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2019 06:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
Current PvT winrate for Protoss: 48.86%
Current PvZ winrate for Protoss: 49.63%

Source: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/

And you guys want to nerf Protoss? Get real.


The underlying premise for the proposed "balance" changes in this thread seems to be less focused on the actual winrate of PvX and more focused on some Protoss tactics or strategies that appear to be frustrating to play against. I'm not really sure how one can equitably deal with the latter situation unless changes to both Protoss and non-Protoss races (either both buffed in different ways or both nerfed in different ways) are made, to offset any additional lowering of the PvX winrates.

Right, so this is a game design problem.

Yet all of the solutions I've seen are straight nerfs to Protoss. Any serious solution would have a compensatory Protoss buff if it was nerfing Protoss, or make some other change.

And that is why people need to get real about this. This is just like when Blizzard took away Khaydarin Amulet or nerfed the Adepts. At the time PvT win rate was ~50% and Protoss tanked after. Was the change necessary for game design purposes? Sure, but it destroyed game balance and led to Blizzard having to do compensatory buffs to Protoss later or nerfs to other races.

A real solution takes balance into view using objective numbers and qualitative analysis, not tiny data sets and anecdotal evidence.

Sadly, at this point the game is full of frustration because Blizzard didn't heed the basic tenets of modern game design. The worst offender, the MSC, was thankfully removed, but we still have Widow Mines, Swarm Hosts, ect... the game is filled with anti-patterns, there is so much power without game play.

I think most of the people who pushed for big changes and wrote up huge articles regarding game design left long ago.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25013 Posts
June 12 2019 16:13 GMT
#111
On June 12 2019 23:20 deacon.frost wrote:
Oy, speed zealots. How about I use marauders, hmm, I wonder...

Also gateway production is almost identical to the Terran production. You build buildings and then you build stuff from the buildings which marches to the waypoint while you can queue the units in there. Where's the Zerg aspecT? (unless you wanna return the older chrono which was nerfed for a reason)

Protoss use gateways? :S

Chrono has never been nerfed outside of timing attacks and cheeses, basically all of which revolve around warp gate in some manner

I’d absolutely take manlots over chargelots because they’d have a ton more versatility. Speedlings have no nifty abilities outside of being fast and there’s a lot you can do with them.

It’s a personal thing I guess, when I say macro more like Zerg I mean there’s a kind of rhythm and groove to injecting, spreading creep rallying and moving your army about that feels pretty good when you get into it, Terran with mulling and setting rallies, jumping to your rally and pulling those units etc.

Protoss I don’t feel has that kind of groove, but that’s just my personal taste. I enjoy the masochism of macroing in Brood War too, but a lot of people don’t

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
leublix
Profile Joined May 2017
493 Posts
June 12 2019 16:31 GMT
#112
Personally my suggestion would be:

* Make warp prism warp-in speed be the the same as non-super pylon (imo that would be sufficient to make all those early PvZ pushes easily holdable)

* Nerf infestor (lategame PvZ is kind of a joke)

* Raven disable back to 75 energy

* Buff protoss in some way to compensate if necessary (probably)
GoSuNamhciR
Profile Joined May 2010
124 Posts
June 12 2019 17:11 GMT
#113
I don't play this game as often as I used to. But I am pretty against buffing the siege tank, I really don't want mirrors to become nothing but tank/vikings again. I'd rather see something else buffed or nerfed. Nor do I really have any good input here for outside of Warp prism probably needs a nerf.
pzlama333
Profile Joined April 2013
United States276 Posts
June 12 2019 17:14 GMT
#114
During the China Team Tournament final, the caster scboy said they heard news from balance team and discuss with them and some players that a new balance patch is coming, which Protss would be nerfed as "the greatest in history", and there will be an "epic buff" for Terran. I have no idea how "greatest" or "epic" would be, and we shall see.
renaissanceMAN
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1840 Posts
June 12 2019 18:34 GMT
#115
On June 13 2019 02:14 pzlama333 wrote:
During the China Team Tournament final, the caster scboy said they heard news from balance team and discuss with them and some players that a new balance patch is coming, which Protss would be nerfed as "the greatest in history", and there will be an "epic buff" for Terran. I have no idea how "greatest" or "epic" would be, and we shall see.


Source?
On August 15 2013 03:43 Waxangel wrote: no amount of money can replace the enjoyment of being mean to people on the internet
pzlama333
Profile Joined April 2013
United States276 Posts
June 12 2019 21:07 GMT
#116
On June 13 2019 03:34 renaissanceMAN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 13 2019 02:14 pzlama333 wrote:
During the China Team Tournament final, the caster scboy said they heard news from balance team and discuss with them and some players that a new balance patch is coming, which Protss would be nerfed as "the greatest in history", and there will be an "epic buff" for Terran. I have no idea how "greatest" or "epic" would be, and we shall see.


Source?


Well, they said so during the stream, and it could be found at https://www.bilibili.com/video/av55317967/?p=2, around 20:00 to 22:00, but they spoke Chinese and I doubt that foreigner would understand it. There is no writing confirmation from any other source yet, and all the Chinese viewers are curious to know what the change may be, and there are already someone begin to discuss the potential changes in Chinese community.
Prev 1 4 5 6 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 32m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Harstem 112
RotterdaM 50
EnDerr 46
ForJumy 7
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 8370
Sea 5766
Pusan 581
Larva 532
BeSt 243
Stork 235
Mini 223
EffOrt 208
Hyun 169
Zeus 166
[ Show more ]
Last 138
Rush 115
Killer 95
Mind 82
ZerO 67
Snow 55
hero 55
Aegong 42
Sharp 34
JYJ24
sSak 20
Movie 16
IntoTheRainbow 10
ajuk12(nOOB) 9
scan(afreeca) 8
Noble 8
SilentControl 6
HiyA 5
Hm[arnc] 4
Icarus 1
Britney 0
Dota 2
BananaSlamJamma703
XcaliburYe530
XaKoH 456
febbydoto19
League of Legends
singsing1591
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss745
x6flipin496
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King166
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor173
Other Games
Fuzer 472
DeMusliM386
Pyrionflax286
crisheroes238
KnowMe198
B2W.Neo100
SortOf96
ArmadaUGS19
ZerO(Twitch)10
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick773
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 11
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 34
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt528
Upcoming Events
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4h 32m
OSC
7h 32m
Replay Cast
12h 32m
The PondCast
22h 32m
RSL Revival
22h 32m
ByuN vs Classic
Clem vs Cham
WardiTV European League
1d 4h
Replay Cast
1d 12h
RSL Revival
1d 22h
herO vs SHIN
Reynor vs Cure
WardiTV European League
2 days
FEL
2 days
[ Show More ]
Korean StarCraft League
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
FEL
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
4 days
BSL: ProLeague
4 days
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-28
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.