I'm very much aware that this will probably be disregarded, but thought I'll give it a try anyway.
1) Slight HP Buff to the Siege Tank in Tank mode
Similar to the Hellion/Hellbat, it would only make sense if the tank is given an hp buff in its less vulnerable state (aka Tank Mode). This would help Terran to defend early aggression from Protoss (Blink Stalkers, Warp Prism Pressure) by making Tanks more durable. On the other hand, this would hardly affect TvZ at all, since unsieged Tanks never really played a significant role there due to the plethora of counters available.
2) Making Warp Ins via Warp Prism require energy
By limiting the number of warp ins available per Warp Prism (25 energy per warp in would equal 8 units max, 20 would equal 10 etc.) it would become what it was originally intended to be: a tool for harassment rather than for warping in entire armies. Additionally, the time period between each harassment would be drastically increased, since waiting until enough energy has been replenished would become a necessity. This would allow new methods of counterplay (e.g. EMPs) as well. The Warp Prism strength in PvP and PvZ would be weakend, too, so one has to keep a close eye on that.
3) Thor's Targeting Priority in High Impact Payload Mode
This is more of a QOL change than an actual balance suggestion. Thors have become a useful tool in defending Carriers due to their superior range. When in High Impact Payload Mode they still prioritize to attack Interceptors rather than the Carrier, which makes little to no sense. Considering Carriers require barely any focus during a battle, it would only be fair, if Thors would require a similar level of attention.
I'm gonna be a discording voice, but I really don't think pvt is that bad, a small balance change, probably to the warp prison, should be enough. Late game tvp seem to be getting better just with terran re-getting use to it.
Really love the idea of making the warp prism require energy. Allows you to reinforce some pushes and keep timing attacks strong or do harassments, but you won't be able to completely negate defenders advantage or warp like 20 zealots into an enemy base all at once. (Unless you want to buy more than one warp prism! which is pretty cool)
On June 10 2019 21:58 DSh1 wrote: Regarding Warp Prisms: I didn't know it was not intended for reinforcing armies. I thought this was primarily the purpose as opposed to harassment.
On June 10 2019 22:05 Nakajin wrote: I'm gonna be a discording voice, but I really don't think pvt is that bad, a small balance change, probably to the warp prison, should be enough. Late game tvp seem to be getting better just with terran re-getting use to it.
zvp is the big problem right now imo.
IMO the issue in ZvP is easier to see than the one in PvT.
To the OP - I don't like any of the solutions as if you nerf WP this much, then you need to rebalance the lategame power of warp ins when Protoss now needs pylon + gateway to properly reinforce which means your units need to walk which means they should be stronger as they're not the strongest currently(because of the close warp ins) (IMO).
On June 10 2019 22:28 Pandain wrote: Really love the idea of making the warp prism require energy. Allows you to reinforce some pushes and keep timing attacks strong or do harassments, but you won't be able to completely negate defenders advantage or warp like 20 zealots into an enemy base all at once. (Unless you want to buy more than one warp prism! which is pretty cool)
Warp prism nerf - pick up cooldown, warp in cooldown or energy as you suggested
Recall nerf - Increase cooldown so protoss can recall only 1-2 per game. They need to be punished when out of position, as the other races are. In this case they would only use recall under extreme circumstances
My reasoning here is that everything protoss has theoretically has a counterplay (although it seems to me like the lategame terran army is much harder to control and requires immaculate micro and almost no mistakes to beat storm tempest). But prism and recall are just straight up unfair. Because of them, protoss can take many more risks without a fear they would be punished. You move out and dont scount the terran drop? Just recall. You expect the zerg to attack your 4th and instead he goes into your natural? No problem, just recall. And prism is even worse...
+ maybe buff roaches against toss a bit more? Cause PvZ is the real problem right now, not PvT.
On June 10 2019 23:46 freelifeffs wrote: i appreciate your effort but priority should hands down be on pvz for now. the matchup is completely broken.
I feel like people who keep talking about opnly one of the matchups being broken are missing the fact that the root issue is that Protoss is too strong--the details matter in each matchup yes, but at the end of the day the race is out-performing both Z and T.
For PvZ i can say that Spine Crawler is kinda weak compared to Spore Crawler. It could be just a little bit stronger. And it would help a lot against Protoss and Zerg timing pushes. For Terran i don't know But i can offer to buff Colossus a bit against non-light-armored units and nerf anti-light-armor damage and nerf Zealot's charge damage and maybe Immortal's health a bit.
On June 10 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote: - return the siege mode upgrade - increase the interference matrix cost to 75 Boom! PvT becomes somewhat playable.
How does this help the underrepresentation of Terran in tournaments exactly? There will be even less of them?
On June 10 2019 23:41 MarianoSC2 wrote: Warp prism nerf - pick up cooldown, warp in cooldown or energy as you suggested
Recall nerf - Increase cooldown so protoss can recall only 1-2 per game. They need to be punished when out of position, as the other races are. In this case they would only use recall under extreme circumstances
My reasoning here is that everything protoss has theoretically has a counterplay (although it seems to me like the lategame terran army is much harder to control and requires immaculate micro and almost no mistakes to beat storm tempest). But prism and recall are just straight up unfair. Because of them, protoss can take many more risks without a fear they would be punished. You move out and dont scount the terran drop? Just recall. You expect the zerg to attack your 4th and instead he goes into your natural? No problem, just recall. And prism is even worse...
+ maybe buff roaches against toss a bit more? Cause PvZ is the real problem right now, not PvT.
The recall is needed because Protoss doesn't have a retreat option as both races have faster units than they have. This was the biggest issue of WoL PvZ(once on creep you're doing it and you can\t retreat) and this would be the issue with harsh limit on recalls.
The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance is based around WP.
So, either you can nerf these and then buff P gateway units(yes, you read it correctly), or you can come up with something else. The easier nerf at the moment is to make the pick up range of WP a research. BOOM, all the robo timings are nerfed while it doesn't limit anything else later on. (Rotti idea BTW)
Or, as you pointed out, there can be a buff to the Roach unit. For example an upgrade to let them shoot into the air so they can swarm at the WP and kill it. Or something similar.
PvT has an issue as we just saw 3 top tier tournaments in a row without proper Terran representation. The issue there just isn't screaming loudly as the WP and robo in PvZ does. We can blame the old map pool(which was very anti terran), but we don't know yet how the new map pool will be played and, honestly, we can't wait for very long, as there are not that many T tournaments to be coming. And no offense to Olimoleyleague, but I believe everyone saves their best for GSL Code S, IEM or GSL ST and the fact all these tournaments are now in despair of any race except Protoss(And Zerg in case of IEM) is just funny.
Yes, let's fix PvZ first, because we can easily identify the issue, but let's hope Blizzard has the data to fix PvT too, because it isn't filling people with optimism(BTW really, check the old map pool and its WR, you will be surprised). It doesn't help that many go with "Maru was winning, Terran is fine" which wasn't helping back then "When Mvp was winning, Terran was fine" either. And we all know it wasn't fine back then, proven with the epic GG of "imba imba imba". And it doesn't seem fine now, but obviously we are just waiting for the imba imba imba gg, because Maru was winning, everything's fine. Also WESG, let's not forget WESG with its qualifiers from the November 2018, very actual to the 2019 situation. (I believe I covered every excuse for PvT except Protoss players are simply that good, gid good, which applies to PvZ as well )
On June 10 2019 23:41 MarianoSC2 wrote: Warp prism nerf - pick up cooldown, warp in cooldown or energy as you suggested
Recall nerf - Increase cooldown so protoss can recall only 1-2 per game. They need to be punished when out of position, as the other races are. In this case they would only use recall under extreme circumstances
My reasoning here is that everything protoss has theoretically has a counterplay (although it seems to me like the lategame terran army is much harder to control and requires immaculate micro and almost no mistakes to beat storm tempest). But prism and recall are just straight up unfair. Because of them, protoss can take many more risks without a fear they would be punished. You move out and dont scount the terran drop? Just recall. You expect the zerg to attack your 4th and instead he goes into your natural? No problem, just recall. And prism is even worse...
+ maybe buff roaches against toss a bit more? Cause PvZ is the real problem right now, not PvT.
The recall is needed because Protoss doesn't have a retreat option as both races have faster units than they have. This was the biggest issue of WoL PvZ(once on creep you're doing it and you can\t retreat) and this would be the issue with harsh limit on recalls.
The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance is based around WP.
So, either you can nerf these and then buff P gateway units(yes, you read it correctly), or you can come up with something else. The easier nerf at the moment is to make the pick up range of WP a research. BOOM, all the robo timings are nerfed while it doesn't limit anything else later on. (Rotti idea BTW)
Or, as you pointed out, there can be a buff to the Roach unit. For example an upgrade to let them shoot into the air so they can swarm at the WP and kill it. Or something similar.
PvT has an issue as we just saw 3 top tier tournaments in a row without proper Terran representation. The issue there just isn't screaming loudly as the WP and robo in PvZ does. We can blame the old map pool(which was very anti terran), but we don't know yet how the new map pool will be played and, honestly, we can't wait for very long, as there are not that many T tournaments to be coming. And no offense to Olimoleyleague, but I believe everyone saves their best for GSL Code S, IEM or GSL ST and the fact all these tournaments are now in despair of any race except Protoss(And Zerg in case of IEM) is just funny.
Yes, let's fix PvZ first, because we can easily identify the issue, but let's hope Blizzard has the data to fix PvT too, because it isn't filling people with optimism(BTW really, check the old map pool and its WR, you will be surprised). It doesn't help that many go with "Maru was winning, Terran is fine" which wasn't helping back then "When Mvp was winning, Terran was fine" either. And we all know it wasn't fine back then, proven with the epic GG of "imba imba imba". And it doesn't seem fine now, but obviously we are just waiting for the imba imba imba gg, because Maru was winning, everything's fine. Also WESG, let's not forget WESG with its qualifiers from the November 2018, very actual to the 2019 situation. (I believe I covered every excuse for PvT except Protoss players are simply that good, gid good, which applies to PvZ as well )
People don't like to acquiesce when the better player is one that isn't their race.
On June 10 2019 21:53 SC2RandomPotatoe wrote: I'm very much aware that this will probably be disregarded, but thought I'll give it a try anyway.
1) Slight HP Buff to the Siege Tank in Tank mode
Similar to the Hellion/Hellbat, it would only make sense if the tank is given an hp buff in its less vulnerable state (aka Tank Mode). This would help Terran to defend early aggression from Protoss (Blink Stalkers, Warp Prism Pressure) by making Tanks more durable. On the other hand, this would hardly affect TvZ at all, since unsieged Tanks never really played a significant role there due to the plethora of counters available.
2) Making Warp Ins via Warp Prism require energy
By limiting the number of warp ins available per Warp Prism (25 energy per warp in would equal 8 units max, 20 would equal 10 etc.) it would become what it was originally intended to be: a tool for harassment rather than for warping in entire armies. Additionally, the time period between each harassment would be drastically increased, since waiting until enough energy has been replenished would become a necessity. This would allow new methods of counterplay (e.g. EMPs) as well. The Warp Prism strength in PvP and PvZ would be weakend, too, so one has to keep a close eye on that.
3) Thor's Targeting Priority in High Impact Payload Mode
This is more of a QOL change than an actual balance suggestion. Thors have become a useful tool in defending Carriers due to their superior range. When in High Impact Payload Mode they still prioritize to attack Interceptors rather than the Carrier, which makes little to no sense. Considering Carriers require barely any focus during a battle, it would only be fair, if Thors would require a similar level of attention.
Thank you for reading!
The easiest way to fix PvsT without affecting the other matchups is to add a +shield damage to one of the other Terran units. There is already +shield damage for Widow Mines.
I leave it to Blizzard to pick a Terran unit to add additional +shield damage too. This would leave TvsZ unchanged (and even TvsT unchanged).
On June 10 2019 23:46 freelifeffs wrote: i appreciate your effort but priority should hands down be on pvz for now. the matchup is completely broken.
I feel like people who keep talking about opnly one of the matchups being broken are missing the fact that the root issue is that Protoss is too strong--the details matter in each matchup yes, but at the end of the day the race is out-performing both Z and T.
Yes, I agree with this. It's reflected in the recent Korean tournaments such as the GSL Super Tournament and this GSL.
On June 10 2019 23:41 MarianoSC2 wrote: Warp prism nerf - pick up cooldown, warp in cooldown or energy as you suggested
Recall nerf - Increase cooldown so protoss can recall only 1-2 per game. They need to be punished when out of position, as the other races are. In this case they would only use recall under extreme circumstances
My reasoning here is that everything protoss has theoretically has a counterplay (although it seems to me like the lategame terran army is much harder to control and requires immaculate micro and almost no mistakes to beat storm tempest). But prism and recall are just straight up unfair. Because of them, protoss can take many more risks without a fear they would be punished. You move out and dont scount the terran drop? Just recall. You expect the zerg to attack your 4th and instead he goes into your natural? No problem, just recall. And prism is even worse...
+ maybe buff roaches against toss a bit more? Cause PvZ is the real problem right now, not PvT.
The recall is needed because Protoss doesn't have a retreat option as both races have faster units than they have. This was the biggest issue of WoL PvZ(once on creep you're doing it and you can\t retreat) and this would be the issue with harsh limit on recalls.
The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance is based around WP.
So, either you can nerf these and then buff P gateway units(yes, you read it correctly), or you can come up with something else. The easier nerf at the moment is to make the pick up range of WP a research. BOOM, all the robo timings are nerfed while it doesn't limit anything else later on. (Rotti idea BTW)
Or, as you pointed out, there can be a buff to the Roach unit. For example an upgrade to let them shoot into the air so they can swarm at the WP and kill it. Or something similar.
PvT has an issue as we just saw 3 top tier tournaments in a row without proper Terran representation. The issue there just isn't screaming loudly as the WP and robo in PvZ does. We can blame the old map pool(which was very anti terran), but we don't know yet how the new map pool will be played and, honestly, we can't wait for very long, as there are not that many T tournaments to be coming. And no offense to Olimoleyleague, but I believe everyone saves their best for GSL Code S, IEM or GSL ST and the fact all these tournaments are now in despair of any race except Protoss(And Zerg in case of IEM) is just funny.
Yes, let's fix PvZ first, because we can easily identify the issue, but let's hope Blizzard has the data to fix PvT too, because it isn't filling people with optimism(BTW really, check the old map pool and its WR, you will be surprised). It doesn't help that many go with "Maru was winning, Terran is fine" which wasn't helping back then "When Mvp was winning, Terran was fine" either. And we all know it wasn't fine back then, proven with the epic GG of "imba imba imba". And it doesn't seem fine now, but obviously we are just waiting for the imba imba imba gg, because Maru was winning, everything's fine. Also WESG, let's not forget WESG with its qualifiers from the November 2018, very actual to the 2019 situation. (I believe I covered every excuse for PvT except Protoss players are simply that good, gid good, which applies to PvZ as well )
Regarding the tank and thor buff, I don't agree with those.
Sure some kind of warptech is required but the current WP is overpowered and need tuning.
I don't think the OP suggestion is that bad, depending on the cost of warpins maybe the energy will just be a problem when the push goes on forever or the frontal attack + in base warpin goes over and over.
I loved Rottis idea that you shared but also came up with this based on what you said about giving roaches air attack.
How about the warpprism needs to "land" on ground to get into phasing mode, and while being in phasing mode it can be attack by ground? Seems like a small change that could actually help a lot, it would also take space then ofc.
On June 10 2019 21:53 SC2RandomPotatoe wrote: I'm very much aware that this will probably be disregarded, but thought I'll give it a try anyway.
1) Slight HP Buff to the Siege Tank in Tank mode
Similar to the Hellion/Hellbat, it would only make sense if the tank is given an hp buff in its less vulnerable state (aka Tank Mode). This would help Terran to defend early aggression from Protoss (Blink Stalkers, Warp Prism Pressure) by making Tanks more durable. On the other hand, this would hardly affect TvZ at all, since unsieged Tanks never really played a significant role there due to the plethora of counters available.
2) Making Warp Ins via Warp Prism require energy
By limiting the number of warp ins available per Warp Prism (25 energy per warp in would equal 8 units max, 20 would equal 10 etc.) it would become what it was originally intended to be: a tool for harassment rather than for warping in entire armies. Additionally, the time period between each harassment would be drastically increased, since waiting until enough energy has been replenished would become a necessity. This would allow new methods of counterplay (e.g. EMPs) as well. The Warp Prism strength in PvP and PvZ would be weakend, too, so one has to keep a close eye on that.
3) Thor's Targeting Priority in High Impact Payload Mode
This is more of a QOL change than an actual balance suggestion. Thors have become a useful tool in defending Carriers due to their superior range. When in High Impact Payload Mode they still prioritize to attack Interceptors rather than the Carrier, which makes little to no sense. Considering Carriers require barely any focus during a battle, it would only be fair, if Thors would require a similar level of attention.
Thank you for reading!
The easiest way to fix PvsT without affecting the other matchups is to add a +shield damage to one of the other Terran units. There is already +shield damage for Widow Mines.
I leave it to Blizzard to pick a Terran unit to add additional +shield damage too. This would leave TvsZ unchanged (and even TvsT unchanged).
What if the Thor's ground attack + single target air attack did shield damage?
On June 10 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote: - return the siege mode upgrade - increase the interference matrix cost to 75 Boom! PvT becomes somewhat playable.
How does this help the underrepresentation of Terran in tournaments exactly? There will be even less of them?
On June 10 2019 23:41 MarianoSC2 wrote: Warp prism nerf - pick up cooldown, warp in cooldown or energy as you suggested
Recall nerf - Increase cooldown so protoss can recall only 1-2 per game. They need to be punished when out of position, as the other races are. In this case they would only use recall under extreme circumstances
My reasoning here is that everything protoss has theoretically has a counterplay (although it seems to me like the lategame terran army is much harder to control and requires immaculate micro and almost no mistakes to beat storm tempest). But prism and recall are just straight up unfair. Because of them, protoss can take many more risks without a fear they would be punished. You move out and dont scount the terran drop? Just recall. You expect the zerg to attack your 4th and instead he goes into your natural? No problem, just recall. And prism is even worse...
+ maybe buff roaches against toss a bit more? Cause PvZ is the real problem right now, not PvT.
The recall is needed because Protoss doesn't have a retreat option as both races have faster units than they have. This was the biggest issue of WoL PvZ(once on creep you're doing it and you can\t retreat) and this would be the issue with harsh limit on recalls.
The warp in energy mechanic I already adressed, briefly - this would require P gateway units to become stronger as reinforcements need to walk and the current balance is based around WP.
So, either you can nerf these and then buff P gateway units(yes, you read it correctly), or you can come up with something else. The easier nerf at the moment is to make the pick up range of WP a research. BOOM, all the robo timings are nerfed while it doesn't limit anything else later on. (Rotti idea BTW)
Or, as you pointed out, there can be a buff to the Roach unit. For example an upgrade to let them shoot into the air so they can swarm at the WP and kill it. Or something similar.
PvT has an issue as we just saw 3 top tier tournaments in a row without proper Terran representation. The issue there just isn't screaming loudly as the WP and robo in PvZ does. We can blame the old map pool(which was very anti terran), but we don't know yet how the new map pool will be played and, honestly, we can't wait for very long, as there are not that many T tournaments to be coming. And no offense to Olimoleyleague, but I believe everyone saves their best for GSL Code S, IEM or GSL ST and the fact all these tournaments are now in despair of any race except Protoss(And Zerg in case of IEM) is just funny.
Yes, let's fix PvZ first, because we can easily identify the issue, but let's hope Blizzard has the data to fix PvT too, because it isn't filling people with optimism(BTW really, check the old map pool and its WR, you will be surprised). It doesn't help that many go with "Maru was winning, Terran is fine" which wasn't helping back then "When Mvp was winning, Terran was fine" either. And we all know it wasn't fine back then, proven with the epic GG of "imba imba imba". And it doesn't seem fine now, but obviously we are just waiting for the imba imba imba gg, because Maru was winning, everything's fine. Also WESG, let's not forget WESG with its qualifiers from the November 2018, very actual to the 2019 situation. (I believe I covered every excuse for PvT except Protoss players are simply that good, gid good, which applies to PvZ as well )
Regarding the tank and thor buff, I don't agree with those.
Sure some kind of warptech is required but the current WP is overpowered and need tuning.
I don't think the OP suggestion is that bad, depending on the cost of warpins maybe the energy will just be a problem when the push goes on forever or the frontal attack + in base warpin goes over and over.
I loved Rottis idea that you shared but also came up with this based on what you said about giving roaches air attack.
How about the warpprism needs to "land" on ground to get into phasing mode, and while being in phasing mode it can be attack by ground? Seems like a small change that could actually help a lot, it would also take space then ofc.
that's actually a really intriguing idea--you could have strategies related to flying in, blocking a space, then warping in (causing me a headache just thinking about it, but cool nonetheless)
EPT
