EPTSome suggestions regarding the PvT tragedy - Page 2
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skdsk
138 Posts
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On June 11 2019 00:34 skdsk wrote: i just dont understand why they keep refusing to fix unusable terran units, like siege tank tankmode or landed viking. What's wrong with the landed viking? A single viking in the mineral line can rack up probe kills if unattended... | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On June 11 2019 00:40 renaissanceMAN wrote: What's wrong with the landed viking? A single viking in the mineral line can rack up probe kills if unattended... in all seriousness, disregarding all the gutter whine in this thread about matchups, i am personally in favor of removing the landing gimmick for vikings and just letting them shoot down from the air with the same attack they get when landed. i honestly don't think this would break anything and it would make terran builds more flexible as the viking would be easier to get value from | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On June 11 2019 01:08 brickrd wrote: in all seriousness, disregarding all the gutter whine in this thread about matchups, i am personally in favor of removing the landing gimmick for vikings and just letting them shoot down from the air with the same attack they get when landed. i honestly don't think this would break anything and it would make terran builds more flexible as the viking would be easier to get value from It would be insane, viking would become better mutalisk, air control in tvt would mean being instanly able to snipe tank and you would need archons or a big amount of air unit to beat mass viking in tvp since they destroy stakers and are pretty ok vs pheonix. I mean a viking first build would counter both a stargate opening and most gateway opening. Viking harrash would also be op, they are just slightly slower than banshee but hit twice as fast and overpower shield bateries on top of killing gateway unit super well and shoting air, a couple of viking can chew down buildings or worker, or even marines. All the meta would change if they did that one, at least in tvt and tvp | ||
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yyltyler
23 Posts
Why do all the suggestions involve nerfing protoss in the matchup when it is clearly not overpowered judging by the numbers? If anything, the number is tilted in terran’s favour (though I think it is balanced) I don’t get why PvT is a tragedy. If something needs to be fixed it is PvZ. All the recent tournaments record above 50% protoss win rate by a large margin, including super tournament, WCS and GSL. | ||
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fds
Slovenia258 Posts
 Lets vent out our frustrations! Warp prism Combination of warp prism and immortals is too strong. Main problem is insane pickup range. Instant Reinforcement via Warp prism is also problematic. Map size doesn't apply to protoss reinforcements time. Here it would be interesting to add maybe 30% longer CD on units warped via warp gate compare to regular gateways. Infestors If you have watched Elazer vs DNS you could clearly see power of infestors in combination with brood lords. Death balls should be avoided. Maybe Fungal Growth should only slow units. Reactors and techlabs Production building should be able to produce units while reactor or techlab is building. This would greatly help terran in deflecting early game pressure versus MaxPax build | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On June 11 2019 01:29 Nakajin wrote: It would be insane, viking would become better mutalisk, air control in tvt would mean being instanly able to snipe tank and you would need archons or a big amount of air unit to beat mass viking in tvp since they destroy stakers and are pretty ok vs pheonix. I mean a viking first build would counter both a stargate opening and most gateway opening. Viking harrash would also be op, they are just slightly slower than banshee but hit twice as fast and overpower shield bateries on top of killing gateway unit super well and shoting air, a couple of viking can chew down buildings or worker, or even marines. All the meta would change if they did that one, at least in tvt and tvp Hahahaha I read brickrds post and was like "umm yeah why not", then I read yours. Lol I'm an idiot, you are spot on, I'm so happy I'm not on the balance team xD | ||
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GreasedUpDeafGuy
United States398 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On June 11 2019 02:32 Shuffleblade wrote: Hahahaha I read brickrds post and was like "umm yeah why not", then I read yours. Lol I'm an idiot, you are spot on, I'm so happy I'm not on the balance team xD We've all been there before  | ||
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Moonerz
United States444 Posts
On June 11 2019 01:55 yyltyler wrote: This PvT recorded 53% win rate in season 2, 43% in season 1, below 50% in WCS spring, below 50% in super tournament (I didn’t count qualifiers) Why do all the suggestions involve nerfing protoss in the matchup when it is clearly not overpowered judging by the numbers? If anything, the number is tilted in terran’s favour (though I think it is balanced) I don’t get why PvT is a tragedy. If something needs to be fixed it is PvZ. All the recent tournaments record above 50% protoss win rate by a large margin, including super tournament, WCS and GSL. You can't look at winrates like that. There were 2 terrans in ST one got eliminated right away and Gumiho made it to the end. So the win % might look ok, but that's only because there is such a small sample size. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
On June 11 2019 00:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: What if the Thor's ground attack + single target air attack did shield damage? Definitely, upgrading the Thor attack to include +shield damage would help. Personally, I think adding a little +shield damage to Banshees would be good because Banshees are so brittle and other than harassing probes, Banshees are pretty bad against Protoss units. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
On June 11 2019 02:38 Moonerz wrote: You can't look at winrates like that. There were 2 terrans in ST one got eliminated right away and Gumiho made it to the end. So the win % might look ok, but that's only because there is such a small sample size. The other way you can look at the GSL Super Tournament is that it was the first time in the entire history of SC2 and BW that 7 players of one race made it to the round of 8 for a premier Korean tournament. And we've had BW tournaments for Korean pro players since 1999 or something like that. But for 20 years for BW and SC2, we have never had 7 players of the same race make it to the quarterfinals of a premier Korean tournament. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 11 2019 01:55 yyltyler wrote: This PvT recorded 53% win rate in season 2, 43% in season 1, below 50% in WCS spring, below 50% in super tournament (I didn’t count qualifiers) Why do all the suggestions involve nerfing protoss in the matchup when it is clearly not overpowered judging by the numbers? If anything, the number is tilted in terran’s favour (though I think it is balanced) I don’t get why PvT is a tragedy. If something needs to be fixed it is PvZ. All the recent tournaments record above 50% protoss win rate by a large margin, including super tournament, WCS and GSL. RO12 IEM - 1 Terran, eliminated. GSL ST 1T 7P, for the first time in history we broke the record and made a new history record with 7 people of the same race in the RO8. This broke GOMTvT and BLInfestor era. BW included according to many. Code S RO16 - 8P, 4T 4Z. Those are 3 top tournaments with the top players(Except Classic @ IEM) without proper Terran representation. The only saving grace of Terrans was Maru in the Code S and that's not happening either. Maybe that's the reason? 1 or 2 tournaments can be an exception, 3 tournaments? How long will we close eyes? | ||
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Spirit_HUN
24 Posts
2, Its warp-in should work similar like a pylon. Bigger power range but longer warpin time. So they cant warpin into your face. Also the pick-up range should be nerfed. 3, Thors are not really good vs carriers anyway. | ||
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SSNYC77
43 Posts
On June 11 2019 03:11 deacon.frost wrote: RO12 IEM - 1 Terran, eliminated. GSL ST 1T 7P, for the first time in history we broke the record and made a new history record with 7 people of the same race in the RO8. This broke GOMTvT and BLInfestor era. BW included according to many. Code S RO16 - 8P, 4T 4Z. Those are 3 top tournaments with the top players(Except Classic @ IEM) without proper Terran representation. The only saving grace of Terrans was Maru in the Code S and that's not happening either. Maybe that's the reason? 1 or 2 tournaments can be an exception, 3 tournaments? How long will we close eyes? What was the most zergs ever in top8/16? | ||
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ByuuN
Poland678 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15930 Posts
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
Looking at purely the Korean tournaments The current era: ST 2019 1 - Ro16: 9P, 2T, 5Z, Ro8: 7P, 1Z (Note: I think it's worthwhile to point out that a large racial number in a prior round will often follow into the subsequent rounds, so it's not unusual to see a large number of P in the Ro8. However, 7P in a ro8 is quite strange) GSL - Ro16: 8P, 4T, 4Z, Ro8: 5P, 1T, 2Z (For an era where one race is stronger than another, 5 of any race in the Ro8 is quite common, though 8 in the round of 16 was among the higher ones overall, though lower in the bigger imbalanced tournaments) The purported Z-favoured era (Note: I really don't know when this era started, but whenever it was, it was really quite short, as it lasted from around mid-2012 to early-2013, and then we switched to Heart of the Swarm) 2012 GSL 2 - Ro16: 7P, 7T, 2Z, Ro8: 5P, 3T (This was the season of the famous MVP/Squirtle finals, and it happened right before I think the famous Broodlord/Infestor era, and this season is rather striking when compared to how people tend to remember 2012 as being about the Broodlord/Infestor time) 2012 GSL 5 - Ro16: 2P, 6T, 8Z, Ro8: 1P, 3T, 4Z (This season was the infamous "IMBA, IMBA, IMBA" note from Ryung, and even with a ZvZ finals, it still only had 4Z in the ro8, though it did have 8Z in the ro16) 2012 Blizzard Cup - Ro10: 4P, 1T, 5Z, Ro6: 1P, 5Z (This tournament was a final of finals of sort, and it also had a strange Ro10, which was rarely, if ever, seen in a premier tournament ever again) 2013 GSL 1 - Ro16: 3P, 5T, 8Z, Ro8: 2P, 2T, 2Z (Again, despite having a ZvZ finals, it had relatively fewer Zs in the Ro8/16 compared to more imbalanced seasons. Also, this was the final GSL before the HotS switch) The infamous GOMTvT era 2011 GSL January - Ro16: 4P, 9T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 4T, 2Z (Interestingly, despite having 9T in the ro16, there were only 4T in the ro8. However, there were 3T in the ro4, and it was a TvT finals) 2011 GSL ST - Ro16: 1P, 9T, 6Z, Ro8: 1P, 6T, 1Z (This tournament tied for the most T in the ro8. Also, of note is this had 4T in the Ro4) 2011 GSL August - Ro16: 4P, 9T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 5T, 1Z (This tournament again had a TvT finals) 2011 GSL October - Ro16: 1P, 10T, 5Z, Ro8: 6T, 2Z (This was one of the few tournaments noted in this list where one race did not show up in the ro8, the other one being in 2012 season 2. Also of note, this was the largest number of a single racial group I found in the ro16, and it also had 6T in the ro8. Once more, it had 4T from the ro4 on) 2011 GSL November - Ro16: 5P, 8T, 3Z, Ro8: 2P, 5T, 1Z (Balance had obviously shifted at this point, and there were more races in the Ro8/Ro4, despite the overrepresentation of T in the Ro16/8). This does not look at all Korean tournaments (and it ignores foreign tournaments), and it focuses primarily on either the biggest offenders of racial representation or during the eras of known imbalance. I didn't find any really large groups during the 2014 GSLs, and aside from this year, LotV has been remarkably balanced compared to prior versions. Looking at this, it seems that the current GSL season, although it overrepresents P in the Ro16/8, 8/5 respectively are among the lower numbers of the overrepresented seasons, though of course, it is still in a category of overrepresentation. The outlier seems to be 2019 GSL ST 1, with of course, the 7P in the ro8. During a time of imbalance, it's not unusual to see a similar number, and I'm not sure if 1 more person over the 6 that we've seen in the past is really that huge. It might be, but it might not be. The other note on this is that the biggest overall time of overrepresentation was in 2011 GSL October, with 10T in the ro16, which we have never seen before or since and the 6T in the ro8, which even this season does not surpass. Additionally, this was about almost a full year's worth of tournaments in the TvT era, whereas we have only seen 2 tournaments that were like this. In terms of eras of overrepresentation, this does count among them, but we'd need more tournaments to conclusively tell that it was worse/better compared to prior times. TL;DR: 2019 ST with 7P was definitely bad, but the GSL season is relatively tame compared to prior times of overrepresentation. However, this past season does indeed fall into the category of having one racial group overrepresented over the other. | ||
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On June 11 2019 04:39 Charoisaur wrote: I think Viking + 5 hp would fix the matchup and save esports are you david kim | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44271 Posts
Is bunker being changed again? Anyways, are we just looking for ways to make the match-ups more *fun*? Because that's subjective, and the game is already incredibly balanced at high level play: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ and if you're in lower level play, then there are other things one can focus on to improve. | ||
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