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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On May 02 2019 02:35 BisuDagger wrote: People may be disappointed two protoss advanced from Group C, but Hurricane played great and really earned his place in the next round. its always the same, group b both protoss fail "its all ok" but group c both advance "cry of outrage" its just the general protoss hate of the community | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 02 2019 19:30 Drake wrote: its always the same, group b both protoss fail "its all ok" but group c both advance "cry of outrage" its just the general protoss hate of the community Considering we aim to have 8/4/4 ratio in Code S RO16 after having 2 Terrans in RO12 @ IEM, 2 Terarns in RO16 @ ST maybe, just maybe, the peole hate PRotoss even more than before. Also both of the group B protosses were not RO16 materials while Inno, Maru and patience were in the last Code S RO16. Obviously the ratio can shift but other groups don't have more than 3 RO16 Season 1 players I believe. (talk about seeding favoring the champion  )So appart from the obvious hate towards Protoss based on TL history we have now the hate to Protoss based on their results and everyone else not delivering. (Edit> Stats replacing Maru and Hurricane replacing Bunny, obviously all the favorites has to deliver their wins) | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 02 2019 23:20 deacon.frost wrote: Considering we aim to have 8/4/4 ratio in Code S RO16 after having 2 Terrans in RO12 @ IEM, 2 Terarns in RO16 @ ST maybe, just maybe, the peole hate PRotoss even more than before. Also both of the group B protosses were not RO16 materials while Inno, Maru and patience were in the last Code S RO16. Obviously the ratio can shift but other groups don't have more than 3 RO16 Season 1 players I believe. (talk about seeding favoring the champion )So appart from the obvious hate towards Protoss based on TL history we have now the hate to Protoss based on their results and everyone else not delivering. (Edit> Stats replacing Maru and Hurricane replacing Bunny, obviously all the favorites has to deliver their wins) Hating Protoss is totally irrational, probably people are still haunted by Protosscraft in 2014(8 Premier victories out of 10 in the first tournaments of the year); on the other hand, I don't see people terrorized by the mindblowing 7/9 Terran titles in Code S("it's just Maru") in LoTV or veterans traumatized by GoMTvT when 20/32 players could easily be using our most beloved race. Whereas the last Super Tournament had one unhealthy amount of Protoss in the ro8, people had already been complaining for months against the supposed imbalance of one race winning 2/14 Premier in 2018(despite losing many times in the finals). | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On May 03 2019 00:03 Xain0n wrote: Hating Protoss is totally irrational, probably people are still haunted by Protosscraft in 2014(8 Premier victories out of 10 in the first tournaments of the year); on the other hand, I don't see people terrorized by the mindblowing 7/9 Terran titles in Code S("it's just Maru") in LoTV or veterans traumatized by GoMTvT when 20/32 players could easily be using our most beloved race. Whereas the last Super Tournament had one unhealthy amount of Protoss in the ro8, people had already been complaining for months against the supposed imbalance of one race winning 2/14 Premier in 2018(despite losing many times in the finals). Nobody cares about 2014 - nobody cares about 2012... Nobody cares when 1 player of a race that is under-represented is winning every tournament while all the stages leading up to the title are filled with another race. Super tournament was just the first completely gross manifestation of what's been out there since they removed msc. People are pissed because PvT has been a joke since that point - using Maru as a reason why it's not is an even bigger joke - the dude literally beat Protoss for a year with a style that was figured out by year end. Toss is 7-3 from bracket stage of GSL since the change - and in 3 out of the 4 finals that Maru won. No one is complaining about Terran being overpowered vs Protoss because you literally can't make a rational case for it. Maru is overpowered vs everyone - period. No matter how many times you parrot on about who won the tournaments - it doesn't change that fact. A singular Terran player had success in 2018 - a multitude of Protoss players did. When 10 / ro16 this season are Protoss and Dark wins his first Code S you'll make the same argument again. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On May 03 2019 00:03 Xain0n wrote: Hating Protoss is totally irrational, probably people are still haunted by Protosscraft in 2014 People already hated Protoss back when I started paying attention in 2008. It's pretty much just a default assumption at this point. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 03 2019 07:08 DomeGetta wrote: Nobody cares about 2014 - nobody cares about 2012... Nobody cares when 1 player of a race that is under-represented is winning every tournament while all the stages leading up to the title are filled with another race. Super tournament was just the first completely gross manifestation of what's been out there since they removed msc. People are pissed because PvT has been a joke since that point - using Maru as a reason why it's not is an even bigger joke - the dude literally beat Protoss for a year with a style that was figured out by year end. Toss is 7-3 from bracket stage of GSL since the change - and in 3 out of the 4 finals that Maru won. No one is complaining about Terran being overpowered vs Protoss because you literally can't make a rational case for it. Maru is overpowered vs everyone - period. No matter how many times you parrot on about who won the tournaments - it doesn't change that fact. A singular Terran player had success in 2018 - a multitude of Protoss players did. When 10 / ro16 this season are Protoss and Dark wins his first Code S you'll make the same argument again. I just don't get the fetishism around tournament winning. That's like the smallest statistical sample possible. but look at those winners!~#$!$% So what? We have PvT imbalance in maps currently, some maps are broken really well(both ways, but more are Protoss friendly) We had some Protoss heavy tournaments. We had multiple Protoss 2nd places. Unless some Ts or Zs prevent this we aim for 8/4/4 RO16 Code S. 50 % of the players will be protoss. Like no offense to anyone, but this doesn't look healthy no matter how you look at it. And the last Code S wasn't looking any healthier, we had 4 Zergs. I get that they pay for the ZvZ sins in WCS but still... But hey, everything is fine, Maru was winning, Inno finally won something, soO finally won something. Everything is fine, no worries. Winning finals is more about the person than the race they play(e.g. soO) | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On May 03 2019 00:03 Xain0n wrote: Hating Protoss is totally irrational, probably people are still haunted by Protosscraft in 2014(8 Premier victories out of 10 in the first tournaments of the year); on the other hand, I don't see people terrorized by the mindblowing 7/9 Terran titles in Code S("it's just Maru") in LoTV or veterans traumatized by GoMTvT when 20/32 players could easily be using our most beloved race. Whereas the last Super Tournament had one unhealthy amount of Protoss in the ro8, people had already been complaining for months against the supposed imbalance of one race winning 2/14 Premier in 2018(despite losing many times in the finals). Someone who is heavily into BW told me that the protoss hate actually comes from BW and they just kept hating protoss in SC2. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 03 2019 07:13 Fanatic-Templar wrote: People already hated Protoss back when I started paying attention in 2008. It's pretty much just a default assumption at this point. Hating Protoss in BW should be a crime, they won so few. At least Protoss in sc2 is the leading race(by a small margin) for both Premier and Major tournaments but being afraid of them while they don't win is senseless. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On May 03 2019 07:39 deacon.frost wrote: I just don't get the fetishism around tournament winning. That's like the smallest statistical sample possible. but look at those winners!~#$!$% So what? We have PvT imbalance in maps currently, some maps are broken really well(both ways, but more are Protoss friendly) We had some Protoss heavy tournaments. We had multiple Protoss 2nd places. Unless some Ts or Zs prevent this we aim for 8/4/4 RO16 Code S. 50 % of the players will be protoss. Like no offense to anyone, but this doesn't look healthy no matter how you look at it. And the last Code S wasn't looking any healthier, we had 4 Zergs. I get that they pay for the ZvZ sins in WCS but still... But hey, everything is fine, Maru was winning, Inno finally won something, soO finally won something. Everything is fine, no worries. Winning finals is more about the person than the race they play(e.g. soO) Well if non-toss are winning it mean the imbalance, if there is one (and there probably is one), isn't actually that big that it can't be overcome by the other players, and considering we had rather a lot of non-toss winning (soO-Serral as Zerg, Maru-TY-INno as T) well the imbalance doesn't seem to be big enough for it to stop a bunch people winning. Maybe we should have some change or rotate the map around but saying that the MSC should be put back or other extreme is ludicrous in the situation where clearly other races do have lots of options to win vs P. Both match ups does seems protoss favour right now, but it's nothing that bad. Except for the last ST, protoss didn't dominate any tournament super hard, plus they did quite bad in the WCS circuit with the exception of Neeb, so it seems when you go down a bit skill wise the imbalance seems to disappear or EU and NA zerg and terran have figure something most Koreans didn't (probably the first one I'll give you that). Anyhow, overall the situation isn't that dire, so yes we are probably gonna have a 7-8 protoss round of 16, but it's not the end of the world just yet. As for zerg in Korea, they do look really shaky, but while I do think they have more problem figuring out the P match up as even T right now, it's also that there really isn't a lot of actual pro zerg player in Korea right now. True as been shaky as hell in years, DRG came back from military, Armany is Armany and he killed Losira in a zvz in the qualifier and Leenock hasn't been great in any meta in years, Impact overcame expectation so that's nice for him but I still don't believe and Ragnarok seems to have it in him but he's yet to really get a good run. Really it's only Rogue, Dark, soO and Solar who you could say a semi-final isn't a chock, Solar under performed and Rogue seems to be on a nosedive, so the list grow even shorter. I don't think specifically for Korean tournament the number of zerg is that good indication of balance, there just isn't the same dept with zerg as with Terran and Protoss over there. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On May 03 2019 07:39 deacon.frost wrote: I think the map pool's affect on current balance isn't talked about enough. This map pool, just in general, is quite friendly to all-ins outside of Year Zero and to a lesser extent, King's Cove. Several of the maps are spaced out and laid out as such that defending is much more difficult than attacking. We have PvT imbalance in maps currently, some maps are broken really well(both ways, but more are Protoss friendly) Kairos Junction is quite good for tank all-ins, immortal all-ins, and lurker builds. Those rocks near the far third are easy to abuse for the attacker and the narrow layout of the bases near the natural make forcefields quite strong. The narrow natural choke on Port Aleksander also makes defending hard, especially with a wall-off, and the thirds are wide open for the attacker, but not so much for the defender, so the attacker can spread out more. Automaton's further away third is quite easy to attack and hard to defend since there's so little space at it to spread out units and the attacker can abuse the rocks. The general layout of the main of Automaton is also quite all-in friendly, as we saw with Patience's games (I'm surprised more protoss didn't abuse it for blink all-ins). Cyber Forest has that area below the natural between the two possible thirds that gives the attacker high ground and the ability to cut off expansions, making tank all-ins and lurker builds insanely good. The expansions on it are also quite open and the pocket third is close to a ramp that can be easily abused. New Repugnancy is obscenely good for tank pushes, either through the middle or attacking down into the further away third and the narrowness of the middle of it make it quite strong for protoss. Honestly, I'm sick of the entire pool. King's Cove is the only map I'm not 100% tired of. I think part of it is how similar Kairos Junction and Port Aleksander feel and that Year Zero is quite easy to turtle on so there end up being a lot of long, drawn-out games. I liked the previous map pool a lot more. | ||
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StarcraftSquall
United States196 Posts
As for Zest and what ails him the answer is pretty simple: he struggles horribly against Zerg. That was the case going into last night. What did he lose to? Yup, Zerg. The whole imbalance argument just sounds ridiculous to me. It’s as simple as this: some people are just better at playing the game than others. Also did a quick number crunch on everything so far this year: which non mirror matchup had the most lopsided win rate? Zerg are winning against Protoss more than any other race is against another map by map on the pro circuits. (Also, who’s bright idea was it to take Year Zero out of GSL for a four player Cobalt map that no one will ever not veto? Seems like a waste of a map slot.) The case in point: it’s usually not the race, it’s usually the player that’s making the difference. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On May 03 2019 07:13 Fanatic-Templar wrote: People already hated Protoss back when I started paying attention in 2008. It's pretty much just a default assumption at this point. Pretty much this. Like the balance team they'll never be satisfied until Protoss is removed from the game | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On May 03 2019 07:45 NinjaNight wrote: Someone who is heavily into BW told me that the protoss hate actually comes from BW and they just kept hating protoss in SC2. Considering how small the foreign BW scene is relative to the foreign SC2 scene. I find it pretty hard to believe that "all the protoss hate actually comes from BW." Not to mention the obviously major differences between BW and SC2 races. People hating Protoss in both games doesn't necessarily mean that one led to the other. After all, SC2 Protoss has more than enough bullshit to hate on its own.  | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 03 2019 14:10 StarcraftSquall wrote: Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe it isn’t the race that’s imbalanced but the people playing the other race are just... better? Case in point: I don’t think there’s too many people who can push Classic in a Bo3+ match. So what if he’s Protoss? It’s great watching players like him show what their race is capable of at the top level. As for Zest and what ails him the answer is pretty simple: he struggles horribly against Zerg. That was the case going into last night. What did he lose to? Yup, Zerg. The whole imbalance argument just sounds ridiculous to me. It’s as simple as this: some people are just better at playing the game than others. Also did a quick number crunch on everything so far this year: which non mirror matchup had the most lopsided win rate? Zerg are winning against Protoss more than any other race is against another map by map on the pro circuits. (Also, who’s bright idea was it to take Year Zero out of GSL for a four player Cobalt map that no one will ever not veto? Seems like a waste of a map slot.) The case in point: it’s usually not the race, it’s usually the player that’s making the difference. Of course, all the Protoss players are just better, learn to live with that. Everybody else needs to just step up their game. Seriously? | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On May 03 2019 14:39 showstealer1829 wrote: Pretty much this. Like the balance team they'll never be satisfied until Protoss is removed from the game I was never into pro BW, my aversion to protoss is probably because of the old classic deathball. This could all be because I've played both zerg and terran but never protoss but the design around protoss just seems so full of BS to me. They have the most varied arsenal of "race" bullshit while also generally having the strongest late game. If you don't die to their BS you'll die to the late game. Its been different reasons and metas throughout history but if you ask me the core problem for all races seems to be storm and to a lesser extent immortals. Protoss does have a lot of very hard counters, storm wreck tons of units, immortals (especially with prism) can destroy ten times their value against many units. Phoenix vs mutas anyone, is that microable? Disruptor vs tanks or lurkers? Tempest vs pretty much anything end game, especially liberators or vipers. It doesn't feel the same in TvZ for example, sure terran usually has the most highest micro potential but unlike matchups vs P it feels like Z can do a lot more about it. Bio vs ultra you can surround the army, fungal the army. It feels like the actual army compositions often matter more vs P because they can hardcounter better and there feels like there is less the other races can do to overcome a compositional disadvantage than in other matchups. This is a sucha big problem because compositional disadvantage pretty much always arrive at late game. The micro needed to play vs storm is so different from protoss using it. Just went on a tangent about my own thoughts, not saying it is like that but it feels like it for me. PvT is in a bad place, we have seen the results recently, even from IEM and forward. The reason we are seeing mech is not because its been buffed and is better now, its because the chances of winning with it are higher than using bio. Simply put its still bad its just that all other options have gotten worse, terran is doing bad in the matchup and therefore have to innovate to have a chance to survive. Just like the previous crutch to win games (mid game allinish pushes) this will work for a while before P figure it out and then T will either lose harder or need to innovate more. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6958 Posts
Terran: Hate on Protoss, whine a lot, whine some more, repeat Zerg: Hate on Protoss Protoss: Enjoy tears from Terran and Zerg, hate on Protoss if playing PvP | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 03 2019 17:47 Shuffleblade wrote: I was never into pro BW, my aversion to protoss is probably because of the old classic deathball. This could all be because I've played both zerg and terran but never protoss but the design around protoss just seems so full of BS to me. They have the most varied arsenal of "race" bullshit while also generally having the strongest late game. If you don't die to their BS you'll die to the late game. Its been different reasons and metas throughout history but if you ask me the core problem for all races seems to be storm and to a lesser extent immortals. Protoss does have a lot of very hard counters, storm wreck tons of units, immortals (especially with prism) can destroy ten times their value against many units. Phoenix vs mutas anyone, is that microable? Disruptor vs tanks or lurkers? Tempest vs pretty much anything end game, especially liberators or vipers. It doesn't feel the same in TvZ for example, sure terran usually has the most highest micro potential but unlike matchups vs P it feels like Z can do a lot more about it. Bio vs ultra you can surround the army, fungal the army. It feels like the actual army compositions often matter more vs P because they can hardcounter better and there feels like there is less the other races can do to overcome a compositional disadvantage than in other matchups. This is a sucha big problem because compositional disadvantage pretty much always arrive at late game. The micro needed to play vs storm is so different from protoss using it. Just went on a tangent about my own thoughts, not saying it is like that but it feels like it for me. PvT is in a bad place, we have seen the results recently, even from IEM and forward. The reason we are seeing mech is not because its been buffed and is better now, its because the chances of winning with it are higher than using bio. Simply put its still bad its just that all other options have gotten worse, terran is doing bad in the matchup and therefore have to innovate to have a chance to survive. Just like the previous crutch to win games (mid game allinish pushes) this will work for a while before P figure it out and then T will either lose harder or need to innovate more. That's because you never played Protoss, all these hardcounters that exists are there because otherwise the race is unusable. And death ball existed for the reason the core units scale way too well but they are useless alone(eg colossus, templar). So when you split your deathball you get lower damage than you would expect... Also many decisions were... just bad. Muta regen, Tempest, Oracle, Queen, ferrari-vacs... the list goes on But that's on another topic. I love playing all the races and all the races has their issues. Protoss is just eye-catching because their issues are easily visible. And because historically they were the 1-A race which can warp units behind your wall at WoL | ||
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fronkschnonk
Germany622 Posts
That aside we have to wait for a little bit but if the current trend of mostly protosses in later rounds of big tournaments continues there might be an issue. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 03 2019 20:39 fronkschnonk wrote: I think why protoss is often seen as imbalanced is because it feels so overwhelmingly strong when winning. It's units are very powerful which make it seem like imba. This perception is actually a testament to the high quality of overall race design of SC2 because it is wanted that the races feel very different while still being balanced. That aside we have to wait for a little bit but if the current trend of mostly protosses in later rounds of big tournaments continues there might be an issue. The issue is that we don't have the luxury of time. There's not that many tournaments to go to. At least the map pool should be considered as a change with such numbers. | ||
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