TL.net Presents: Disasterpiece Theater Misadventures with Mech: Flash vs Curious
By: Mizenhauer and Wax
Here at TL.net, we spend most of our time highlighting StarCraft II at its best, whether it's bringing you lists of entertaining games or celebrating amazing esports accomplishments. But we think BAD games deserve some attention as well, whether it's because we want to have a good laugh, or because we still want to balance-whine years after the fact. Anyway, we hope you enjoy our newest recurring(?) feature: Disasterpiece Theater.
To many, Heart of the Swarm represents the glory days of Zerg versus Terran, when waves of muta-ling-bane crashed into armies of bio-mine-medivac in bloody, fast-paced battles. In mid-2015, as the expansion neared its end, ZvT had reached a strange place: Mech, a composition which had been reduced to a niche role for most of the expansion, had made an abrupt resurgence.
This wasn't the 'battle-mech' of recent times—no, it was the slow, nasty turtle-mech brought down from the days of Brood War. Design changes to swarm hosts alongside a favorable map-pool with maps such as Cactus Valley and Coda transformed mech into a power house, allowing Terrans to turtle up and assemble nigh-unbeatable armies. Who wanted to deal with the threat of mutalisks ransacking an entire SCV line, or a bio army evaporating due to a momentary lapse in micro? It was much easier to never leave one's side of the map, hiding behind a sea of turrets, thors, and tanks. Mech ended up being used 34 times in TvZ matches during Seasons 3 of GSL and SSL, compared to bio’s 14 appearances. (Mech was also really good in TvT, but the story of how BrAvO beat Maru in a straight up macro game is best reserved for another day.)
It was not a fun time to be a Zerg. The might of mech is what made ByuL’s heroic victory against INnoVation on Terraform one of the most iconic Zerg vs mech games in SC2 history, but to be honest, ByuL only won because INnoVation didn't get armor upgrades at all for some reason. It felt like far more games ended with Zerg bashing their heads against a wall of metal and neosteel until they collapsed.
While one could pick any number of games to illustrate how toxic turtle-mech could be at its worst, no game was quite as awful as one played between Flash vs Curious on August 14th, 2015, during the decider match of their Code S RO16 group.
(Begins at 1:05:39)
In one corner we had Curious. Only a few months removed from making a career-best semifinal run in Code S, the gatekeeper was falling back to Earth. There wasn’t any confusing him with ByuL at this point, or even Rogue who Curious had gotten the better of in the round of 8 during the previous season. But he could still prove that the last season wasn't a fluke if he could just get past this one opponent...
That opponent was Flash. The Ultimate Weapon. 'God' himself. While Flash is undoubtedly the greatest player in Brood War history, he wasn't exactly playing that level of StarCraft II in 2015. His shining moment had actually come the year before at IEM Toronto 2014 where he defeated Zest to win the championship, but his GSL and SSL results were modest in comparison.
However, the new mech style was tailor-made for a player who had perfected mech Terran in Brood War. While Flash's micro in SC2 was… let's just put it kindly and say "wanting for improvement," he could still optimize the hell out of builds and drop mules on cooldown. More importantly, Flash was a player who demonstrated near infinite patience. He was content to sit back and let his opponents do whatever they wanted, as long as he could reach his end goal of an unstoppable battlecruiser-mech composition.
Our story picks up in game three, with Flash and Curious already having endured two exhausting mech vs Zerg ordeals. Flash took game one on Iron Fortress when he beat fewer corruptors with more vikings, while Curious evened the score on Coda when he beat fewer viking with more corruptors (what a fantastic match-up!), setting the stage for a deciding game that only the most die-hard Flash fans could have been anticipating, since everyone else had already been bored to death.
The final game began as so many others did in that era. Flash took advantage of the map’s size and Zerg’s proclivity toward greedy openings by going CC first. Curious predictably responded by taking a third base and going up to spire, fast mutas being the standard ZvT build of the time. See, theoretically mutas afforded Zerg an opportunity to harass while also being safe enough against most forms of Terran aggression—you know, stuff you'd consider in a game where players actually interact with each other. Unfortunately, Curious’ mutas were more of a perfunctory gesture than anything, with a few vikings and thors being forced as both players headed straight to the late-game.
By the time we reached the 11 minute mark (about eight minutes LotV time) Flash was already fully saturated on three bases, tucked away in his little corner of the map. Curious' response was to drone up, take several bases on his side of the map, and make a beeline toward to hive. As for Flash—once he was armed with one of the most ridiculously cost-effective compositions in StarCraft II (ironically, a jumble of almost every unit without stimpack)—finally began his glacially slow expansion across the map.
If you're Zerg, you do have to attack eventually. Or, at least, you have to throw away the mutalisks, roaches and other crappy units that don't translate to the late-game so you can graduate to units that are marginally better. Curious finally made the first serious attack of the game at the twenty-minute mark, attempting to breach the Terran line with hydralisks and vipers. While he successfully killed Flash's outermost base before the defenses were set, Flash casually rolled back in with more tanks and plopped down a new CC once the blinding clouds subsided.
Curious took another crack at the same base a few minutes later, having re-armed himself with a mass of ultralisks, queens, and vipers… before quickly retreating in horror after seeing the entrenched line of tanks. As with the mutas before them, the ultras were just another formality; an offer to engage that Flash once again declined.
Curious: Wanna, uhhh, play the game?
Flash: Nah man, I'm good.
By the way, a word about missile turrets. As it turns out, they counter every Zerg unit. They annihilate air units for cost, they tank for actual siege tanks due to the AI of ground units, and they're bulky enough to be a serious pathing hazard for ultralisks. Not only that, they're free trivial to spam because mech strategies end up floating a ton of minerals. Of course, Flash already figured this out years ago, when he built 108 turrets in an infamous OSL game against Zero. Anyway...
With tanks, turrets, and planetary fortresses in place as static defenses, the 'mobile' portion of Flash's army in battlecruisers, vikings, and ravens pushed Zerg forces back as Flash expanded his territory to the top side of the map. Despite having 6000/6000 in the bank, having over half the map covered in creep, and still facing no Terran encroachment on his side of Cactus Valley, Curious was starting to look a bit helpless.
At this point, we should remind you of how Cactus Valley was first introduced during TL Map Contest 5: "A map à la Whirlwind, army movements will eventually funnel into the center of the map. With only a single path circling around the map, central control will be key in establishing succeeding bases and open up aggressive options." Is it possible for someone to be alive and still be rolling in their grave? That's probably what happened to map-maker Ferisii after this game.
This is fine.
After impaling his remaining ground forces on the Terran defenses, Curious went for an abrupt tech-switch to catch Flash off guard: Mass corruptors supporting a handful of brood lords. And yet, this move backfired almost instantly on Curious as 1) Flash was not caught at all off-guard, and 2) Flash unsieged the extraneous portion of his tank force and sent them to hunt Zerg bases in tank mode. While Curious killed one pitiful Planetary Fortress, Flash's Tanks killed every single one of Curious' mining bases. Absorbing the graveness of his error, Curious slowly cleaned up the tanks with his eight brood lords—the sum of his anti-ground army. Still, the ever-patient Flash allowed Curious to re-take his bases and build up his bank again (important for the gruesome end to this story), wanting everything to be perfect before he gave Curious that full-on battle he wanted so badly.
So, when Curious' massive corruptor force finally did get to fight a few minutes later, everything went horrendously wrong once more. In games one and two of the series, the viking vs. corruptor battles decided the victor—which is probably why Curious went for a composition of mostly corruptors supporting a few brood lords and infestors. How was Curious supposed to know that Flash would actually have learned from the previous games, and remembered that mass ravens are a ridiculously good support unit against air? Even with his ravens, Flash demonstrated almost sadistic patience, patiently chasing Curious' across the map under the cover of point defense drones.
With all hope lost and his economy in tatters, Curious decided to use his nearly 10k/10k bank on one final, last-ditch tech switch. Facing off against Heart of the Swarm’s ultimate army and an absurd amount of missile turrets, Curious put the pedal to the metal, making what will forever go down as the most futile and hopeless muta switch of all time. Curious was able to win a moral victory by taking out the weakened Battlecruisers and Vikings, but with 3/3 Thors being produced five at a time, Flash soon brought an end to the nonsense and the game.
Really, one has to wonder what Curious was thinking. The most pressing obstacle between him and victory was Flash’s air fleet, and a corruptor remax would have dealt with that problem more effectively. The thing is, Curious probably just wasn’t thinking. He was playing the third game of his third match of the day, one in which he had spent more than an hour and a half grinding away at Flash who seemed entirely content playing Simcity with missile turrets and PFs. Curious was at his wits end, with tanks still coming to shell his hatcheries, and an unknowable composition of remaxed mech forces looming in the fog of war. He was so far past the point at which we could expect anyone to make a rational, optimal decision. The muta switch was a prayer to the heavens, except no one was listening besides the cruel god before him.
Finally, it's over.
Though the Zerg vs mech era of 2015 was unbearable at its worst, it did yield some great games like the ByuL vs INnoVation classic mentioned above. Watching a Zerg pick apart a skillful mech Terran was one of the most impressive displays of mastery in StarCraft II. Zerg players were forced to gobble up the map and while defending against constant Hellion harassment, tech switch over and over, exploit mech's immobility with backdoor and multi-prong attacks, and take as many favorable trades as possible before they could sculpt a final weapon capable of dealing the killing blow.
This game had none of that. It was terribly one-sided and brutally long, with the mech player somehow performing more multi-tasking than the Zerg, and the Zerg treating his vital spell-casters like banelings. It was a perfect example of a toxic synergy between maps and meta, where players were incentivized to bypass the early and mid-game interaction that makes StarCraft II great and head straight to the endgame. What a relief it is to know that we've learned from such mistakes, and surely we'll never have to witnesssuch horror again.
Who does god pray to for forgiveness?
Credits and acknowledgements
Written by: Mizenhauer, Wax Images: AfreecaTV (GomTV)
Poor curious, the worst is zvp was arguably even worse back then... Edit : not in the same manner tho, 3bases blink was doing the job before the golden armada anyway.
Well let's look at it this way: in either situation the Zerg wouldn't have won an army fight really. But at least ByuL didn't also have to contend with 70 missile turrets scattered around the map. Flash's buildings by themselves were already too much for the muta switch, let alone his army.
I think Terrans who insist on forms of 'mech' being viable at any cost should be forced to watch this whole VoD in its entirety every time they express such an opinion.
I am personally loving some of the dynamic mech styles we're seeing these days, absolutely love what we're seeing in that domain, don't get me wrong I'm no mech hater.
On April 26 2019 04:43 zakadar wrote: hey I have to admit i really enjoyed these games I even rewatched them back then
Oh there's nothing quite like watching a man die on the inside. I'm pretty sure by the time the muta switch happened Curious' soul had already abandoned its mortal host and the body was just making random units by muscle memory.
On April 26 2019 04:45 Wombat_NI wrote: I think Terrans who insist on forms of 'mech' being viable at any cost should be forced to watch this whole VoD in its entirety every time they express such an opinion.
I am personally loving some of the dynamic mech styles we're seeing these days, absolutely love what we're seeing in that domain, don't get me wrong I'm no mech hater.
Some people won't be satisified unless mech is exactly this. Except preferably without even making a unit that isn't from the factory.
On April 26 2019 04:45 Wombat_NI wrote: I think Terrans who insist on forms of 'mech' being viable at any cost should be forced to watch this whole VoD in its entirety every time they express such an opinion.
I am personally loving some of the dynamic mech styles we're seeing these days, absolutely love what we're seeing in that domain, don't get me wrong I'm no mech hater.
The issue is mech was forced to be like this because siege tanks and the other units were so bad, that you couldn't ever leave your bases as you'd never win an engagement without turtling.
Look at mech in BW and how it functions vs zerg and look at this. It's entirely different. The whole idea mech = turtle just simply isn't the case in BW. There's agressive styles of mech, heck look at FanTaSy's games.
On April 26 2019 04:45 Wombat_NI wrote: I think Terrans who insist on forms of 'mech' being viable at any cost should be forced to watch this whole VoD in its entirety every time they express such an opinion.
I am personally loving some of the dynamic mech styles we're seeing these days, absolutely love what we're seeing in that domain, don't get me wrong I'm no mech hater.
The issue is mech was forced to be like this because siege tanks and the other units were so bad, that you couldn't ever leave your bases as you'd never win an engagement without turtling.
Look at mech in BW and how it functions vs zerg and look at this. It's entirely different. The whole idea mech = turtle just simply isn't the case in BW. There's agressive styles of mech, heck look at FanTaSy's games.
On April 26 2019 04:45 Wombat_NI wrote: I think Terrans who insist on forms of 'mech' being viable at any cost should be forced to watch this whole VoD in its entirety every time they express such an opinion.
I am personally loving some of the dynamic mech styles we're seeing these days, absolutely love what we're seeing in that domain, don't get me wrong I'm no mech hater.
The issue is mech was forced to be like this because siege tanks and the other units were so bad, that you couldn't ever leave your bases as you'd never win an engagement without turtling.
Look at mech in BW and how it functions vs zerg and look at this. It's entirely different. The whole idea mech = turtle just simply isn't the case in BW. There's agressive styles of mech, heck look at FanTaSy's games.
They’re totally different games though.
I do love me some mech and Brood War in general, if you transplant BW mech directly over to SC2 with UMS and units clumping naturally, siege tanks will just melt everything. In BW leapfrogging and mine-laying isn’t a trivial task, plus units naturally spread out to mitigate splash so the TvP dance is dicey.
It’s not that BW mech = turtle to me at least, it’s that in SC2 tanks being that strong would be completely broken as a semi-mobile death ball that would be my issue.
I’m liking some of what I’m seeing in SC2 mech lately, now it doesn’t mean it couldn’t use some love but I think styles that force you to use many different types of units are a way of mech being suitably difficult to use and have some of the old flavour without being too A-moveable.
On April 26 2019 09:21 BronzeKnee wrote: HOTS nearly killed SC2.
David Kim and Dustin Browder made some serious mistakes.
HOTS was very difficult to watch and boring to follow. I tried a few times to get into it, and it did not work for me.
Wasn't hots the time Maruders raining over colossus? That was my favorite time of starcraft 2, pure bliss.
That was like 6-8 months of over 3 1/2 years. Many SCV pulls were had, many mech (or Protoss) vs swarm host stalemates played. And a lot of other things not everybody liked, as exciting as the death of 300 workers per game via hellbats may sound.
HotS had a lot of stuff to remember fondly and a lot of things nobody will miss.
the heart of the swarm thing that seems furthest from reality now is casually making 20 stalkers and 20 sentries to win PvZ and eventually adding storm in case it didn't work
On April 26 2019 09:21 BronzeKnee wrote: HOTS nearly killed SC2.
David Kim and Dustin Browder made some serious mistakes.
HOTS was very difficult to watch and boring to follow. I tried a few times to get into it, and it did not work for me.
Wasn't hots the time Maruders raining over colossus? That was my favorite time of starcraft 2, pure bliss.
That was like 6-8 months of over 3 1/2 years. Many SCV pulls were had, many mech (or Protoss) vs swarm host stalemates played. And a lot of other things not everybody liked, as exciting as the death of 300 workers per game via hellbats may sound.
HotS had a lot of stuff to remember fondly and a lot of things nobody will miss.
on the other hand - TvZ parade push style with many of the greatest games of all time, Chargelot templar PvT with games like Dear vs Maru or Polt vs HerO, Blink Sentry PvZ micro wars.... HotS definitely had its good sides as well,
On April 27 2019 00:49 Charoisaur wrote: Blink Sentry PvZ micro wars.
I doubt Zerg players would consider this a good side. Or a micro war. All the meaningful micro was on the Protoss side. I personally got pretty tired of watching it too since the only real deviation from +2 blink stalkers was all-ins and Zergs often looked really helpless even against just lots of stalkers.
On April 27 2019 01:29 BonitiilloO wrote: Flash wasnt good in Sc2 no BW player was good enough in SC2
What's good enough? Bonjwa? Innovation was a decent BW pro and is one of the greatest SC2 pros ever, is that good enough?
Well, I guess he wants to say that no major BW pro translated his success into Sc2, maybe Jaedong was the closest one; Rain would be a better answer but his BW successes came after his Sc2 career ended.
NesTea, Mvp, Innovation, Zest, Stats, soO, Classic weren't really that strong in Brood War; Hydra and ForGG both won one MSL in BW and were relevant enough in Sc2, but they never exactly were at the top.
On April 27 2019 01:29 BonitiilloO wrote: Flash wasnt good in Sc2 no BW player was good enough in SC2
Mvp, MC, JD, Soulkey, sOs, Bomber, Stats, TY, INnoVation, Classic, soO etc. are examples of BW players that aren't good enough in SC2. They never even got to the finals, let alone won, anything of importance, like Blizzcon, code S and WCS.
Edit: Oh, I am slow when I want to fact check my memory. People got there messages there before me.
On April 27 2019 00:49 Charoisaur wrote: Blink Sentry PvZ micro wars.
I doubt Zerg players would consider this a good side. Or a micro war. All the meaningful micro was on the Protoss side. I personally got pretty tired of watching it too since the only real deviation from +2 blink stalkers was all-ins and Zergs often looked really helpless even against just lots of stalkers.
I was watching 2014 GSL a month or two back while I worked out, and literally every PvZ was either +2 blink, blink/sentry, or a combination of the two into dying to swarmhosts like 20 minutes after the blink all-in failed. Passive play just meant zerg got their swarmhosts even faster so every game was inevitably an all-in of some kind. The blink all-in stuff was interesting for about 2 games until I realized that nearly every game was going to be that.
And lets not even get into the PvZs on Habitation Station. Oof.
It was so bad that I had to quit watching that year's GSL and skip ahead to 2016.
On April 27 2019 00:49 Charoisaur wrote: Blink Sentry PvZ micro wars.
I doubt Zerg players would consider this a good side. Or a micro war. All the meaningful micro was on the Protoss side. I personally got pretty tired of watching it too since the only real deviation from +2 blink stalkers was all-ins and Zergs often looked really helpless even against just lots of stalkers.
I was watching 2014 GSL a month or two back while I worked out, and literally every PvZ was either +2 blink, blink/sentry, or a combination of the two into dying to swarmhosts like 20 minutes after the blink all-in failed. Passive play just meant zerg got their swarmhosts even faster so every game was inevitably an all-in of some kind. The blink all-in stuff was interesting for about 2 games until I realized that nearly every game was going to be that.
And lets not even get into the PvZs on Habitation Station. Oof.
It was so bad that I had to quit watching that year's GSL and skip ahead to 2016.
Wasn't 2016 kind of shit too? What with all the proxy reaper, roach-ravagers and pylon rush? 2015-16 were the dark age of SC for me personnally.
I mean, if we are honest, then first year of HotS was awesome (all the way to Zest's coronation but not beyond). Second year only had a redeeming feature in Life vs TaeJa showdowns. And third year... we don't talk about third year of HotS around here. Not in good tones, because article in OP describes my memory of it pretty vividly.
On April 27 2019 00:49 Charoisaur wrote: Blink Sentry PvZ micro wars.
I doubt Zerg players would consider this a good side. Or a micro war. All the meaningful micro was on the Protoss side. I personally got pretty tired of watching it too since the only real deviation from +2 blink stalkers was all-ins and Zergs often looked really helpless even against just lots of stalkers.
I was watching 2014 GSL a month or two back while I worked out, and literally every PvZ was either +2 blink, blink/sentry, or a combination of the two into dying to swarmhosts like 20 minutes after the blink all-in failed. Passive play just meant zerg got their swarmhosts even faster so every game was inevitably an all-in of some kind. The blink all-in stuff was interesting for about 2 games until I realized that nearly every game was going to be that.
And lets not even get into the PvZs on Habitation Station. Oof.
It was so bad that I had to quit watching that year's GSL and skip ahead to 2016.
Wasn't 2016 kind of shit too? What with all the proxy reaper, roach-ravagers and pylon rush? 2015-16 were the dark age of SC for me personnally.
It hasn't been too bad so far, especially compared to 2014. The sieged siege tank medivac pickup stuff is pretty silly. Adepts seem pretty strong also. I've only seen one reaper game so far but the Terran lost to a roach/ravager counterattack. The maps seemed pretty questionable, at least for the first season. One had an easy access gold so Zergs would take it as their natural then roll over protoss with mass roach/ravager, but that was evened out by every zerg losing every game they didn't end with a roach/ravager push because of the stupid medivac siege tank pushes.
I wasn't watching playing Starcraft or watching GSL from about 2014 to the start of 2018 (mostly because I got so sick of swarmhosts and instead started playing other games) so everything GSL from mid-2014 to the start of last year is new to me.
Yeah it seemed like from HOTS expansion release until early 2017 or so seemed like a bad time for SC2. Once they started ironing out the biggest issues (sieged tank medivac pickups? Who thought that was a good idea???) of the LOTV expansion it seemed like the game started to come back a bit.
no one except crazy europeans like snute and TLO was making swarm hosts against bio, and it never worked, so i don't understand what that has to do with mech being to blame for mech. the goal of turtle mech in that era was literally to never attack whether zerg made swarm hosts or not... they were still doing the exact same thing when ByuL pioneered ultra hydra queen corruptor as the standard endgame
On April 27 2019 00:49 Charoisaur wrote: Blink Sentry PvZ micro wars.
I doubt Zerg players would consider this a good side. Or a micro war. All the meaningful micro was on the Protoss side. I personally got pretty tired of watching it too since the only real deviation from +2 blink stalkers was all-ins and Zergs often looked really helpless even against just lots of stalkers.
I was watching 2014 GSL a month or two back while I worked out, and literally every PvZ was either +2 blink, blink/sentry, or a combination of the two into dying to swarmhosts like 20 minutes after the blink all-in failed. Passive play just meant zerg got their swarmhosts even faster so every game was inevitably an all-in of some kind. The blink all-in stuff was interesting for about 2 games until I realized that nearly every game was going to be that.
And lets not even get into the PvZs on Habitation Station. Oof.
It was so bad that I had to quit watching that year's GSL and skip ahead to 2016.
Wasn't 2016 kind of shit too? What with all the proxy reaper, roach-ravagers and pylon rush? 2015-16 were the dark age of SC for me personnally.
The first GSL of 2016 was actually pretty fun still (unless you supported Zerg). It may have been the hype for the new expansion still, but many things felt truly new and fresh and I enjoyed that season a lot. I'd rather have watched S1 2016 gameplay than the 2018 proxy meta, I'll tell you that much. Season 2 of 2016 though for GSL, while ByuN's rise from the ashes was a story everyone talked about, gameplay-wise we just fell off of an unbelievable cliff. The Ro8 and onwards was a complete disaster.
2017 was a much, much better year than 2016 game-wise all in all. I also still remember 2015 fondly. Not just for the quality of games (which as the OP makes clear was sometimes questionable), but also the sheer quantity we had back then (at least 5 days of offline Starcraft every week for a big part of the year).
On April 27 2019 00:49 Charoisaur wrote: Blink Sentry PvZ micro wars.
I doubt Zerg players would consider this a good side. Or a micro war. All the meaningful micro was on the Protoss side. I personally got pretty tired of watching it too since the only real deviation from +2 blink stalkers was all-ins and Zergs often looked really helpless even against just lots of stalkers.
I was watching 2014 GSL a month or two back while I worked out, and literally every PvZ was either +2 blink, blink/sentry, or a combination of the two into dying to swarmhosts like 20 minutes after the blink all-in failed. Passive play just meant zerg got their swarmhosts even faster so every game was inevitably an all-in of some kind. The blink all-in stuff was interesting for about 2 games until I realized that nearly every game was going to be that.
And lets not even get into the PvZs on Habitation Station. Oof.
It was so bad that I had to quit watching that year's GSL and skip ahead to 2016.
Wasn't 2016 kind of shit too? What with all the proxy reaper, roach-ravagers and pylon rush? 2015-16 were the dark age of SC for me personnally.
The first GSL of 2016 was actually pretty fun still (unless you supported Zerg). It may have been the hype for the new expansion still, but many things felt truly new and fresh and I enjoyed that season a lot. I'd rather have watched S1 2016 gameplay than the 2018 proxy meta, I'll tell you that much. Season 2 of 2016 though for GSL, while ByuN's rise from the ashes was a story everyone talked about, gameplay-wise we just fell off of an unbelievable cliff. The Ro8 and onwards was a complete disaster.
2017 was a much, much better year than 2016 game-wise all in all. I also still remember 2015 fondly. Not just for the quality of games (which as the OP makes clear was sometimes questionable), but also the sheer quantity we had back then (at least 5 days of offline Starcraft every week for a big part of the year).
I do have some great memory of those two years even if I hated most of the gameplay. Blizzcon 2015 was amazing, Gumi getting his GSL, Hydra-Polt duel and I think Olimoleague started in 2015 too and that was great. I would like to say that seeing BuyN meteoric and unstopable climb from the bottom of online cup all the way to the world stage at Blizzcon was inspiring, but on that one I have to say the infuriating gameplay was too much.
Swarm Hosts were fun, I liked them. I had something around 80 % wr against them. 2 robos colossus, fast upgrades, MS rush, void rays, teleporting around to nexi when I needed to change base, templars killing anything energy based. Was fun, I liked that time :D But I hated to watch these unless herO was involved.
On April 26 2019 04:45 Wombat_NI wrote: I think Terrans who insist on forms of 'mech' being viable at any cost should be forced to watch this whole VoD in its entirety every time they express such an opinion.
On April 27 2019 08:14 LaughNgamez wrote: Blizzards response was comical, changing swarmhosts but not giving zerg a better answer to turtle mech.
I will forever not understand why Innovation did not mech vs Life in Blizzcon 2015 where it was still incredibly broken.
He did play mech in one game. In the other games he couldn't transition to mech because Life did too much damage in the early game and in the last game Inno had a brainfart.
On April 26 2019 04:45 Wombat_NI wrote: I think Terrans who insist on forms of 'mech' being viable at any cost should be forced to watch this whole VoD in its entirety every time they express such an opinion.
I am personally loving some of the dynamic mech styles we're seeing these days, absolutely love what we're seeing in that domain, don't get me wrong I'm no mech hater.
On April 27 2019 00:49 Charoisaur wrote: Blink Sentry PvZ micro wars.
I doubt Zerg players would consider this a good side. Or a micro war. All the meaningful micro was on the Protoss side. I personally got pretty tired of watching it too since the only real deviation from +2 blink stalkers was all-ins and Zergs often looked really helpless even against just lots of stalkers.
I was watching 2014 GSL a month or two back while I worked out, and literally every PvZ was either +2 blink, blink/sentry, or a combination of the two into dying to swarmhosts like 20 minutes after the blink all-in failed. Passive play just meant zerg got their swarmhosts even faster so every game was inevitably an all-in of some kind. The blink all-in stuff was interesting for about 2 games until I realized that nearly every game was going to be that.
And lets not even get into the PvZs on Habitation Station. Oof.
It was so bad that I had to quit watching that year's GSL and skip ahead to 2016.
Wasn't 2016 kind of shit too? What with all the proxy reaper, roach-ravagers and pylon rush? 2015-16 were the dark age of SC for me personnally.
2016 was the worst. Reapers were OP, adepts were OP, ultras were almost unkillable by marines, pylon cannons were added, dasan station was a legitimate map, liberator AA was ridiculous at a point as well. The list goes on. Not to mention I think the majority of korean pros really underperformed due to lost motivation
2015 was the best year imo for many reasons, but the mech shitshow at the end was pretty bad
On April 27 2019 00:49 Charoisaur wrote: Blink Sentry PvZ micro wars.
I doubt Zerg players would consider this a good side. Or a micro war. All the meaningful micro was on the Protoss side. I personally got pretty tired of watching it too since the only real deviation from +2 blink stalkers was all-ins and Zergs often looked really helpless even against just lots of stalkers.
I was watching 2014 GSL a month or two back while I worked out, and literally every PvZ was either +2 blink, blink/sentry, or a combination of the two into dying to swarmhosts like 20 minutes after the blink all-in failed. Passive play just meant zerg got their swarmhosts even faster so every game was inevitably an all-in of some kind. The blink all-in stuff was interesting for about 2 games until I realized that nearly every game was going to be that.
And lets not even get into the PvZs on Habitation Station. Oof.
It was so bad that I had to quit watching that year's GSL and skip ahead to 2016.
Wasn't 2016 kind of shit too? What with all the proxy reaper, roach-ravagers and pylon rush? 2015-16 were the dark age of SC for me personnally.
2016 was the worst. Reapers were OP, adepts were OP, ultras were almost unkillable by marines, pylon cannons were added, dasan station was a legitimate map, liberator AA was ridiculous at a point as well. The list gkes on
You missed the worst one: Tankivacs...possibly the worst idea they ever came up with.
On April 26 2019 04:45 Wombat_NI wrote: I think Terrans who insist on forms of 'mech' being viable at any cost should be forced to watch this whole VoD in its entirety every time they express such an opinion.
I am personally loving some of the dynamic mech styles we're seeing these days, absolutely love what we're seeing in that domain, don't get me wrong I'm no mech hater.
On April 27 2019 00:49 Charoisaur wrote: Blink Sentry PvZ micro wars.
I doubt Zerg players would consider this a good side. Or a micro war. All the meaningful micro was on the Protoss side. I personally got pretty tired of watching it too since the only real deviation from +2 blink stalkers was all-ins and Zergs often looked really helpless even against just lots of stalkers.
I was watching 2014 GSL a month or two back while I worked out, and literally every PvZ was either +2 blink, blink/sentry, or a combination of the two into dying to swarmhosts like 20 minutes after the blink all-in failed. Passive play just meant zerg got their swarmhosts even faster so every game was inevitably an all-in of some kind. The blink all-in stuff was interesting for about 2 games until I realized that nearly every game was going to be that.
And lets not even get into the PvZs on Habitation Station. Oof.
It was so bad that I had to quit watching that year's GSL and skip ahead to 2016.
Wasn't 2016 kind of shit too? What with all the proxy reaper, roach-ravagers and pylon rush? 2015-16 were the dark age of SC for me personnally.
2016 was the worst. Reapers were OP, adepts were OP, ultras were almost unkillable by marines, pylon cannons were added, dasan station was a legitimate map, liberator AA was ridiculous at a point as well. The list gkes on
You missed the worst one: Tankivacs...possibly the worst idea they ever came up with.
Tankivac were amazing, you could load up all your army, scan the other terran main, see five turrets and 1 siege tank and just boost in anyway. I had so many bullshit winsl in tvt back then, well when I wasn't proxy reaper, wich happen like 4 out of 5 times.
On April 27 2019 00:49 Charoisaur wrote: Blink Sentry PvZ micro wars.
I doubt Zerg players would consider this a good side. Or a micro war. All the meaningful micro was on the Protoss side. I personally got pretty tired of watching it too since the only real deviation from +2 blink stalkers was all-ins and Zergs often looked really helpless even against just lots of stalkers.
I was watching 2014 GSL a month or two back while I worked out, and literally every PvZ was either +2 blink, blink/sentry, or a combination of the two into dying to swarmhosts like 20 minutes after the blink all-in failed. Passive play just meant zerg got their swarmhosts even faster so every game was inevitably an all-in of some kind. The blink all-in stuff was interesting for about 2 games until I realized that nearly every game was going to be that.
And lets not even get into the PvZs on Habitation Station. Oof.
It was so bad that I had to quit watching that year's GSL and skip ahead to 2016.
Wasn't 2016 kind of shit too? What with all the proxy reaper, roach-ravagers and pylon rush? 2015-16 were the dark age of SC for me personnally.
2016 was the worst. Reapers were OP, adepts were OP, ultras were almost unkillable by marines, pylon cannons were added, dasan station was a legitimate map, liberator AA was ridiculous at a point as well. The list gkes on
You missed the worst one: Tankivacs...possibly the worst idea they ever came up with.
Tankivac were amazing, you could load up all your army, scan the other terran main, see five turrets and 1 siege tank and just boost in anyway. I had so many bullshit winsl in tvt back then, well when I wasn't proxy reaper, wich happen like 4 out of 5 times.
On April 27 2019 00:49 Charoisaur wrote: Blink Sentry PvZ micro wars.
I doubt Zerg players would consider this a good side. Or a micro war. All the meaningful micro was on the Protoss side. I personally got pretty tired of watching it too since the only real deviation from +2 blink stalkers was all-ins and Zergs often looked really helpless even against just lots of stalkers.
I was watching 2014 GSL a month or two back while I worked out, and literally every PvZ was either +2 blink, blink/sentry, or a combination of the two into dying to swarmhosts like 20 minutes after the blink all-in failed. Passive play just meant zerg got their swarmhosts even faster so every game was inevitably an all-in of some kind. The blink all-in stuff was interesting for about 2 games until I realized that nearly every game was going to be that.
And lets not even get into the PvZs on Habitation Station. Oof.
It was so bad that I had to quit watching that year's GSL and skip ahead to 2016.
Wasn't 2016 kind of shit too? What with all the proxy reaper, roach-ravagers and pylon rush? 2015-16 were the dark age of SC for me personnally.
2016 was the worst. Reapers were OP, adepts were OP, ultras were almost unkillable by marines, pylon cannons were added, dasan station was a legitimate map, liberator AA was ridiculous at a point as well. The list gkes on
You missed the worst one: Tankivacs...possibly the worst idea they ever came up with.
Tankivac were amazing, you could load up all your army, scan the other terran main, see five turrets and 1 siege tank and just boost in anyway. I had so many bullshit winsl in tvt back then, well when I wasn't proxy reaper, wich happen like 4 out of 5 times.
You still do the same thing with tankivacs removed from the game. And without tankivacs it's much harder for your opponent to get in position to defend his production from your YOLO doom drop. Sure your tanks don't come in sieged, but that's hardly an issue.
Well, that's what you would do if everyone going 2 raven into reactored vikings every game wasn't a thing.
On April 27 2019 00:49 Charoisaur wrote: Blink Sentry PvZ micro wars.
I doubt Zerg players would consider this a good side. Or a micro war. All the meaningful micro was on the Protoss side. I personally got pretty tired of watching it too since the only real deviation from +2 blink stalkers was all-ins and Zergs often looked really helpless even against just lots of stalkers.
I was watching 2014 GSL a month or two back while I worked out, and literally every PvZ was either +2 blink, blink/sentry, or a combination of the two into dying to swarmhosts like 20 minutes after the blink all-in failed. Passive play just meant zerg got their swarmhosts even faster so every game was inevitably an all-in of some kind. The blink all-in stuff was interesting for about 2 games until I realized that nearly every game was going to be that.
And lets not even get into the PvZs on Habitation Station. Oof.
It was so bad that I had to quit watching that year's GSL and skip ahead to 2016.
Wasn't 2016 kind of shit too? What with all the proxy reaper, roach-ravagers and pylon rush? 2015-16 were the dark age of SC for me personnally.
2016 was the worst. Reapers were OP, adepts were OP, ultras were almost unkillable by marines, pylon cannons were added, dasan station was a legitimate map, liberator AA was ridiculous at a point as well. The list gkes on
You missed the worst one: Tankivacs...possibly the worst idea they ever came up with.
Tankivacs must have been an idea when they said "How can we convince people to buy LOTV, what looks cool?".
On April 27 2019 00:49 Charoisaur wrote: Blink Sentry PvZ micro wars.
I doubt Zerg players would consider this a good side. Or a micro war. All the meaningful micro was on the Protoss side. I personally got pretty tired of watching it too since the only real deviation from +2 blink stalkers was all-ins and Zergs often looked really helpless even against just lots of stalkers.
I was watching 2014 GSL a month or two back while I worked out, and literally every PvZ was either +2 blink, blink/sentry, or a combination of the two into dying to swarmhosts like 20 minutes after the blink all-in failed. Passive play just meant zerg got their swarmhosts even faster so every game was inevitably an all-in of some kind. The blink all-in stuff was interesting for about 2 games until I realized that nearly every game was going to be that.
And lets not even get into the PvZs on Habitation Station. Oof.
It was so bad that I had to quit watching that year's GSL and skip ahead to 2016.
Wasn't 2016 kind of shit too? What with all the proxy reaper, roach-ravagers and pylon rush? 2015-16 were the dark age of SC for me personnally.
2016 was the worst. Reapers were OP, adepts were OP, ultras were almost unkillable by marines, pylon cannons were added, dasan station was a legitimate map, liberator AA was ridiculous at a point as well. The list gkes on
You missed the worst one: Tankivacs...possibly the worst idea they ever came up with.
Ahhh yes the first reason I began autoquitting against every Terran.
And considering the Balance teams general reaction to the meta is "Fuck Protoss" it never stopped. Only now I have to autoquit against Zerg too. And most Protoss now that I think about it.
2016 was a mess but I enjoyed it a lot. The actual game was pretty fun to play too even with all the random stupid things we had in the game.
2015 I'm sure wasn't that bad but the memories of it leave quite a bitter taste in my mouth. I actually didn't find the mech games that boring, I just disliked it because it was broken and zerg felt really helpless. Meanwhile ZvP was so much worse post-SH patch. I'm probably one of the few that actually enjoyed SH games, but definitely once they nerfed SH, it became the dullest matchup ever.
I literally quit SC2 for a long time after the SH patch because Z (at least at my top Gold level) just no longer had a good answer to a Terran or Protoss that sat on 3-4 bases and massed up a stupid cost efficient army, and seeing people like Life and, in this instance, Curious, consistently not only lose but look plain helpless to the exact same strategies was so incredibly demoralizing. It was so awful that not even the release of LOTV could bring me back until mid last year.