On April 22 2019 04:47 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: GuMiho had made an impressive finals run as one of only two Terran players in the tournament, and seemed the favorite to win after he defeated top Protoss Stats in the quarterfinals.
Did people really put Gumi as the favourite? Making the finals was basically free at that point, but Classic should have been the overwhelming favourite to win once Stats/Maru/soO were out.
I think some people tunnel-visioned the fact that GuMiho won 3-0 against Stats and that it would guarantee a victory against any other Protoss since Stats is generally considered the best P. What really needs to be seen is that while GuMi played mech against Stats like Maru did, it wasn't identical. Classic has always been a PvT monster with his gatewayman style, which seems to not work on Maru (as most things don't), but it sure did dissect GuMiho with his brand of MechvP.
I don't think GuMiho played mech in any way similar to Maru.
Maru used a hellion/cyclone core to constantly defend harass while doing his own harass. On this pivot he went into his late game with mass BC.
GuMiho on the other hand played ultra-defensive eventually getting up to Thors + BCs. This I believe is the weakness the slow army core. Without cyclone hellion Classic was just free to dance around the much scarier army and deal economic damage.
Maru on the other hand flipped that idea on its head countering with his own mobility taxing the protoss army as a result.
I don't even know if any other Terran can pull that off given how much constant multi-tasking it requires.
Fantasy has been playing this style a ton since his return. It's exactly how he was so successful in Brood War too. I think Maru and Fantasy have a lot of similar qualities.
On April 22 2019 04:47 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: GuMiho had made an impressive finals run as one of only two Terran players in the tournament, and seemed the favorite to win after he defeated top Protoss Stats in the quarterfinals.
Did people really put Gumi as the favourite? Making the finals was basically free at that point, but Classic should have been the overwhelming favourite to win once Stats/Maru/soO were out.
I think some people tunnel-visioned the fact that GuMiho won 3-0 against Stats and that it would guarantee a victory against any other Protoss since Stats is generally considered the best P. What really needs to be seen is that while GuMi played mech against Stats like Maru did, it wasn't identical. Classic has always been a PvT monster with his gatewayman style, which seems to not work on Maru (as most things don't), but it sure did dissect GuMiho with his brand of MechvP.
I don't think GuMiho played mech in any way similar to Maru.
Maru used a hellion/cyclone core to constantly defend harass while doing his own harass. On this pivot he went into his late game with mass BC.
GuMiho on the other hand played ultra-defensive eventually getting up to Thors + BCs. This I believe is the weakness the slow army core. Without cyclone hellion Classic was just free to dance around the much scarier army and deal economic damage.
Maru on the other hand flipped that idea on its head countering with his own mobility taxing the protoss army as a result.
I don't even know if any other Terran can pull that off given how much constant multi-tasking it requires.
Well first off Maru didn't go into a mass BC late game at any point, there was no breathing room in his games against Stats for such a thing (and I would say if he had achieved a successful mass BC on Year Zero Stats would have lost).
Secondly, the biggest difficulty in my opinion isn't actually the offensive multitasking itself. It's the raw mechanical demands required to macro well behind it all. If you go back and rewatch the games against Stats, the style is actually not very cost-efficient at all. That means it's absolutely key to keep establishing economy over and over behind your attacks and keep up your production so that your inefficient trades never keep up.
So while I believe TY's offensive multitasking is better than Maru's and he could be an even bigger nuisance, I don't think he would be as successful with this style. Simply because Maru's economy and production management is unparalleled at this point.
It is good to see that despite the deep preparation for the matches with Rogue and Dark, Classic did not lose any focus in his PvP and PvT matches. Of course Maru was another universe, but Classic is like a shining star now that burnes as brightly as it can before it ends its career as a progamer. So happy for Classic.
Kudos to classic but Gumiho played terribly. 2 massive throws and some big mistakes in the other games as well. The tournament was very low quality overall. Hope we get to see better plays in GSL. And for the love of God Zergs figure out how to deal with this ZvP meta, it's sad to watch all of them lose
On April 22 2019 19:30 Destructicon wrote: Thats some awesome news, I always thought SC2 mech was boring as its more turtly, this more dynamic style is so cool.
Hopefully Fantasy can bring that same level of play.
Yes, absolutely. I’ve never really wanted to see ‘mech’ for its own sake if it’s super passive and deathbally itself
When it involves being active with all sorts of units and finding gaps to do damage and having to be active in all sorts of ways it’s super cool though.
We’ve seen periods where turtling into an unkillable defensive position was viable as a playstyle, only thing was it was Zergs doing it, I don’t recall people enjoying that very much.
I’m interested to see what happens going forward, Maru despite losing and Gumiho showed some promising stuff at least.
I don’t see mech vP becoming the go-to standard, but it may get developed more so it’s at least a standard option in a BoX to throw in. In the other matchups mech has waxed and waned from being a relatively bad option to being the best option in a matchup and everything in between, I can see it maybe finding a niche somewhere below being the best standard option cap
I wonder if Classic can start working on being allowed to participate in blizzcon or not? He already has 4500 points which last year would have been enough alone to make it.
While not technically a lock, the odds are pretty drastic for him not making it
On April 22 2019 23:09 Fango wrote: I wonder if Classic can start working on being allowed to participate in blizzcon or not? He already has 4500 points which last year would have been enough alone to make it.
While not technically a lock, the odds are pretty drastic for him not making it
how does that work in Korea anyways? He was denied a visa for IEM because of his imminent military service, so when does he have to go
On April 22 2019 23:09 Fango wrote: I wonder if Classic can start working on being allowed to participate in blizzcon or not? He already has 4500 points which last year would have been enough alone to make it.
While not technically a lock, the odds are pretty drastic for him not making it
From what I understand he would be allowed to participate at Blizzcon. He was not allowed to go to IEM because the open bracket wasn't a "good" enough reason to travel. Had he qualified for the main tournament it is likely he would have been allowed to travel to IEM.
On April 22 2019 04:47 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: GuMiho had made an impressive finals run as one of only two Terran players in the tournament, and seemed the favorite to win after he defeated top Protoss Stats in the quarterfinals.
Did people really put Gumi as the favourite? Making the finals was basically free at that point, but Classic should have been the overwhelming favourite to win once Stats/Maru/soO were out.
I think some people tunnel-visioned the fact that GuMiho won 3-0 against Stats and that it would guarantee a victory against any other Protoss since Stats is generally considered the best P. What really needs to be seen is that while GuMi played mech against Stats like Maru did, it wasn't identical. Classic has always been a PvT monster with his gatewayman style, which seems to not work on Maru (as most things don't), but it sure did dissect GuMiho with his brand of MechvP.
I don't think GuMiho played mech in any way similar to Maru.
Maru used a hellion/cyclone core to constantly defend harass while doing his own harass. On this pivot he went into his late game with mass BC.
GuMiho on the other hand played ultra-defensive eventually getting up to Thors + BCs. This I believe is the weakness the slow army core. Without cyclone hellion Classic was just free to dance around the much scarier army and deal economic damage.
Maru on the other hand flipped that idea on its head countering with his own mobility taxing the protoss army as a result.
I don't even know if any other Terran can pull that off given how much constant multi-tasking it requires.
Well first off Maru didn't go into a mass BC late game at any point, there was no breathing room in his games against Stats for such a thing (and I would say if he had achieved a successful mass BC on Year Zero Stats would have lost).
Secondly, the biggest difficulty in my opinion isn't actually the offensive multitasking itself. It's the raw mechanical demands required to macro well behind it all. If you go back and rewatch the games against Stats, the style is actually not very cost-efficient at all. That means it's absolutely key to keep establishing economy over and over behind your attacks and keep up your production so that your inefficient trades never keep up.
So while I believe TY's offensive multitasking is better than Maru's and he could be an even bigger nuisance, I don't think he would be as successful with this style. Simply because Maru's economy and production management is unparalleled at this point.
Maybe if TY shifts more attention to the flawless macro and less to the multitasking... hmm (to me it appears that's what MAru did)
On April 22 2019 04:47 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: GuMiho had made an impressive finals run as one of only two Terran players in the tournament, and seemed the favorite to win after he defeated top Protoss Stats in the quarterfinals.
Did people really put Gumi as the favourite? Making the finals was basically free at that point, but Classic should have been the overwhelming favourite to win once Stats/Maru/soO were out.
I think some people tunnel-visioned the fact that GuMiho won 3-0 against Stats and that it would guarantee a victory against any other Protoss since Stats is generally considered the best P. What really needs to be seen is that while GuMi played mech against Stats like Maru did, it wasn't identical. Classic has always been a PvT monster with his gatewayman style, which seems to not work on Maru (as most things don't), but it sure did dissect GuMiho with his brand of MechvP.
I don't think GuMiho played mech in any way similar to Maru.
Maru used a hellion/cyclone core to constantly defend harass while doing his own harass. On this pivot he went into his late game with mass BC.
GuMiho on the other hand played ultra-defensive eventually getting up to Thors + BCs. This I believe is the weakness the slow army core. Without cyclone hellion Classic was just free to dance around the much scarier army and deal economic damage.
Maru on the other hand flipped that idea on its head countering with his own mobility taxing the protoss army as a result.
I don't even know if any other Terran can pull that off given how much constant multi-tasking it requires.
Well first off Maru didn't go into a mass BC late game at any point, there was no breathing room in his games against Stats for such a thing (and I would say if he had achieved a successful mass BC on Year Zero Stats would have lost).
Secondly, the biggest difficulty in my opinion isn't actually the offensive multitasking itself. It's the raw mechanical demands required to macro well behind it all. If you go back and rewatch the games against Stats, the style is actually not very cost-efficient at all. That means it's absolutely key to keep establishing economy over and over behind your attacks and keep up your production so that your inefficient trades never keep up.
So while I believe TY's offensive multitasking is better than Maru's and he could be an even bigger nuisance, I don't think he would be as successful with this style. Simply because Maru's economy and production management is unparalleled at this point.
Maybe if TY shifts more attention to the flawless macro and less to the multitasking... hmm (to me it appears that's what MAru did)
Stick with what you’re good at I guess?
I’m not even sure Maru’s macro and production timings are that much better, or at least appreciably better than Inno or TY.
I’ve heard this a lot, I’ve been watching games in detail pretty hardcore lately, I’ve watched those two steam over the years, hopefully Maru one day will do so as that’d be great.
I just am not really seeing windows where Maru is gaining an edge over those two in a pure macro/mechanical sense anyway.
I mean Gumiho could drop his unique approaches to the game and experimenting and try to hit mechanical perfection, probably wouldn’t go super well for him. And Gumiho you can watch, or he himself admits that he is absolutely behind those guys mechanically.
Need to watch the replays still before getting my hopes up about mech in TvP, but I really hope this isn’t another “Mech works if you’re Korean GM with 300+ apm!”
I love how the Protoss players all help one another and have this mutual level of respect for one another. In the matchup between sOs and Classic, sOs basically wished Classic all the best for the year since he's leaving for the army/retiring this year.
It was good to see PartinG moments of brilliance too. He out-microed Hurricane so badly in one game. I'm sure no one expected him to make it to ro8 yet alone ro4.
On April 23 2019 08:17 MoonyD wrote: I love how the Protoss players all help one another and have this mutual level of respect for one another. In the matchup between sOs and Classic, sOs basically wished Classic all the best for the year since he's leaving for the army/retiring this year.
It was good to see PartinG moments of brilliance too. He out-microed Hurricane so badly in one game. I'm sure no one expected him to make it to ro8 yet alone ro4.
I mean it was kind of expected, at least for me, especially after he beat ragnarok
Parting is the greatest Protoss micro player of all time, and personally i think only peak maru is better than peak parting when it comes to micro.
Parting's hallmark was the soul train and he used to win off the back of absurd control of blink stalkers, sentries, and of course warp prism micro.
I think both Classic and Blizzard need to have a pretty serious discussion with the Korean military about a two week exception to visit the US in November ASAP. It would be a crying shame if he deserves to go in his last year and is denied the opportunity like he was in Katowice. I want to see everyone send their best not the first alternate.
On April 22 2019 04:47 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: GuMiho had made an impressive finals run as one of only two Terran players in the tournament, and seemed the favorite to win after he defeated top Protoss Stats in the quarterfinals.
Did people really put Gumi as the favourite? Making the finals was basically free at that point, but Classic should have been the overwhelming favourite to win once Stats/Maru/soO were out.
I think some people tunnel-visioned the fact that GuMiho won 3-0 against Stats and that it would guarantee a victory against any other Protoss since Stats is generally considered the best P. What really needs to be seen is that while GuMi played mech against Stats like Maru did, it wasn't identical. Classic has always been a PvT monster with his gatewayman style, which seems to not work on Maru (as most things don't), but it sure did dissect GuMiho with his brand of MechvP.
I don't think GuMiho played mech in any way similar to Maru.
Maru used a hellion/cyclone core to constantly defend harass while doing his own harass. On this pivot he went into his late game with mass BC.
GuMiho on the other hand played ultra-defensive eventually getting up to Thors + BCs. This I believe is the weakness the slow army core. Without cyclone hellion Classic was just free to dance around the much scarier army and deal economic damage.
Maru on the other hand flipped that idea on its head countering with his own mobility taxing the protoss army as a result.
I don't even know if any other Terran can pull that off given how much constant multi-tasking it requires.
Well first off Maru didn't go into a mass BC late game at any point, there was no breathing room in his games against Stats for such a thing (and I would say if he had achieved a successful mass BC on Year Zero Stats would have lost).
Secondly, the biggest difficulty in my opinion isn't actually the offensive multitasking itself. It's the raw mechanical demands required to macro well behind it all. If you go back and rewatch the games against Stats, the style is actually not very cost-efficient at all. That means it's absolutely key to keep establishing economy over and over behind your attacks and keep up your production so that your inefficient trades never keep up.
So while I believe TY's offensive multitasking is better than Maru's and he could be an even bigger nuisance, I don't think he would be as successful with this style. Simply because Maru's economy and production management is unparalleled at this point.
Maybe if TY shifts more attention to the flawless macro and less to the multitasking... hmm (to me it appears that's what MAru did)
Stick with what you’re good at I guess?
I’m not even sure Maru’s macro and production timings are that much better, or at least appreciably better than Inno or TY.
I’ve heard this a lot, I’ve been watching games in detail pretty hardcore lately, I’ve watched those two steam over the years, hopefully Maru one day will do so as that’d be great.
I just am not really seeing windows where Maru is gaining an edge over those two in a pure macro/mechanical sense anyway.
I mean Gumiho could drop his unique approaches to the game and experimenting and try to hit mechanical perfection, probably wouldn’t go super well for him. And Gumiho you can watch, or he himself admits that he is absolutely behind those guys mechanically.
Watch the Artosis/NoShoeEaten(NoRegret ) analysis of Maru v Neeb. Artosis especially points out how the armory is precisely on time and how no other Terran does this consistently. To me it seems Maru shifted slightly away from aggression(this means he's not super omega mega giga aggressive but just omega mega giga aggressive) and is very precise about macro. Taeja/Polt were doing something similar(IIRC).
Maru moved into insane macro beast(similarly to Rogue but he is still cheesing while Rogue appears to not be that cheesy anymore). In some games it can be seen - Maru is lower in supply, lower in supply, lower in supply, suddenly he has more supply, better upgrades, same worker count and one only wonder WTF happened.
I'm not saying TY should become Terran Rain, but maybe if he shifts 10 % of his multi-tasking into macro he can become the bestest everest
On April 22 2019 04:47 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: GuMiho had made an impressive finals run as one of only two Terran players in the tournament, and seemed the favorite to win after he defeated top Protoss Stats in the quarterfinals.
Did people really put Gumi as the favourite? Making the finals was basically free at that point, but Classic should have been the overwhelming favourite to win once Stats/Maru/soO were out.
I think some people tunnel-visioned the fact that GuMiho won 3-0 against Stats and that it would guarantee a victory against any other Protoss since Stats is generally considered the best P. What really needs to be seen is that while GuMi played mech against Stats like Maru did, it wasn't identical. Classic has always been a PvT monster with his gatewayman style, which seems to not work on Maru (as most things don't), but it sure did dissect GuMiho with his brand of MechvP.
I don't think GuMiho played mech in any way similar to Maru.
Maru used a hellion/cyclone core to constantly defend harass while doing his own harass. On this pivot he went into his late game with mass BC.
GuMiho on the other hand played ultra-defensive eventually getting up to Thors + BCs. This I believe is the weakness the slow army core. Without cyclone hellion Classic was just free to dance around the much scarier army and deal economic damage.
Maru on the other hand flipped that idea on its head countering with his own mobility taxing the protoss army as a result.
I don't even know if any other Terran can pull that off given how much constant multi-tasking it requires.
Well first off Maru didn't go into a mass BC late game at any point, there was no breathing room in his games against Stats for such a thing (and I would say if he had achieved a successful mass BC on Year Zero Stats would have lost).
Secondly, the biggest difficulty in my opinion isn't actually the offensive multitasking itself. It's the raw mechanical demands required to macro well behind it all. If you go back and rewatch the games against Stats, the style is actually not very cost-efficient at all. That means it's absolutely key to keep establishing economy over and over behind your attacks and keep up your production so that your inefficient trades never keep up.
So while I believe TY's offensive multitasking is better than Maru's and he could be an even bigger nuisance, I don't think he would be as successful with this style. Simply because Maru's economy and production management is unparalleled at this point.
Maybe if TY shifts more attention to the flawless macro and less to the multitasking... hmm (to me it appears that's what MAru did)
Stick with what you’re good at I guess?
I’m not even sure Maru’s macro and production timings are that much better, or at least appreciably better than Inno or TY.
I’ve heard this a lot, I’ve been watching games in detail pretty hardcore lately, I’ve watched those two steam over the years, hopefully Maru one day will do so as that’d be great.
I just am not really seeing windows where Maru is gaining an edge over those two in a pure macro/mechanical sense anyway.
I mean Gumiho could drop his unique approaches to the game and experimenting and try to hit mechanical perfection, probably wouldn’t go super well for him. And Gumiho you can watch, or he himself admits that he is absolutely behind those guys mechanically.
Watch the Artosis/NoShoeEaten(NoRegret ) analysis of Maru v Neeb. Artosis especially points out how the armory is precisely on time and how no other Terran does this consistently. To me it seems Maru shifted slightly away from aggression(this means he's not super omega mega giga aggressive but just omega mega giga aggressive) and is very precise about macro. Taeja/Polt were doing something similar(IIRC).
Maru moved into insane macro beast(similarly to Rogue but he is still cheesing while Rogue appears to not be that cheesy anymore). In some games it can be seen - Maru is lower in supply, lower in supply, lower in supply, suddenly he has more supply, better upgrades, same worker count and one only wonder WTF happened.
I'm not saying TY should become Terran Rain, but maybe if he shifts 10 % of his multi-tasking into macro he can become the bestest everest
I think that’s overstated, people do occasionally mess up that armoury timing, in general no. Hell even I used to take pride in nailing it :p
I’m grinding watching a lot of games at the minute, I’m just not seeing a big mechanical gap at least. Maru does a lot of nice touches, those small depot walls and general positioning that all add up, and require you to be super on your game mechanically, all the stuff in that v Neeb game was tight.
If I was to guess much of it is decision-making and experience. Hyper-aggressive Maru makes consistently good decisions in when he commits and when he doesn’t, and executes really well.
When TY/Inno were considered to be better in really lategame scenarios with certain compositions, that wasn’t necessarily their mechanics being better, just that they adopted those gameplans earlier than Maru and got really good at working out how to play them and what mistakes they could make and avoid.
Maybe Maru thinks certain styles aren’t viable, or he needed more strings to his bow. I think his lategame is looking so good because he’s given it a lot of focus in working out the kinks
In terms of raw mechanics though I can’t see that gap really. He can still be a better player by all means I just don’t think he’s mechanically better than those two overall.
On April 22 2019 04:47 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: GuMiho had made an impressive finals run as one of only two Terran players in the tournament, and seemed the favorite to win after he defeated top Protoss Stats in the quarterfinals.
Did people really put Gumi as the favourite? Making the finals was basically free at that point, but Classic should have been the overwhelming favourite to win once Stats/Maru/soO were out.
I think some people tunnel-visioned the fact that GuMiho won 3-0 against Stats and that it would guarantee a victory against any other Protoss since Stats is generally considered the best P. What really needs to be seen is that while GuMi played mech against Stats like Maru did, it wasn't identical. Classic has always been a PvT monster with his gatewayman style, which seems to not work on Maru (as most things don't), but it sure did dissect GuMiho with his brand of MechvP.
I don't think GuMiho played mech in any way similar to Maru.
Maru used a hellion/cyclone core to constantly defend harass while doing his own harass. On this pivot he went into his late game with mass BC.
GuMiho on the other hand played ultra-defensive eventually getting up to Thors + BCs. This I believe is the weakness the slow army core. Without cyclone hellion Classic was just free to dance around the much scarier army and deal economic damage.
Maru on the other hand flipped that idea on its head countering with his own mobility taxing the protoss army as a result.
I don't even know if any other Terran can pull that off given how much constant multi-tasking it requires.
Well first off Maru didn't go into a mass BC late game at any point, there was no breathing room in his games against Stats for such a thing (and I would say if he had achieved a successful mass BC on Year Zero Stats would have lost).
Secondly, the biggest difficulty in my opinion isn't actually the offensive multitasking itself. It's the raw mechanical demands required to macro well behind it all. If you go back and rewatch the games against Stats, the style is actually not very cost-efficient at all. That means it's absolutely key to keep establishing economy over and over behind your attacks and keep up your production so that your inefficient trades never keep up.
So while I believe TY's offensive multitasking is better than Maru's and he could be an even bigger nuisance, I don't think he would be as successful with this style. Simply because Maru's economy and production management is unparalleled at this point.
Maybe if TY shifts more attention to the flawless macro and less to the multitasking... hmm (to me it appears that's what MAru did)
Stick with what you’re good at I guess?
I’m not even sure Maru’s macro and production timings are that much better, or at least appreciably better than Inno or TY.
I’ve heard this a lot, I’ve been watching games in detail pretty hardcore lately, I’ve watched those two steam over the years, hopefully Maru one day will do so as that’d be great.
I just am not really seeing windows where Maru is gaining an edge over those two in a pure macro/mechanical sense anyway.
I mean Gumiho could drop his unique approaches to the game and experimenting and try to hit mechanical perfection, probably wouldn’t go super well for him. And Gumiho you can watch, or he himself admits that he is absolutely behind those guys mechanically.
Watch the Artosis/NoShoeEaten(NoRegret ) analysis of Maru v Neeb. Artosis especially points out how the armory is precisely on time and how no other Terran does this consistently. To me it seems Maru shifted slightly away from aggression(this means he's not super omega mega giga aggressive but just omega mega giga aggressive) and is very precise about macro. Taeja/Polt were doing something similar(IIRC).
Maru moved into insane macro beast(similarly to Rogue but he is still cheesing while Rogue appears to not be that cheesy anymore). In some games it can be seen - Maru is lower in supply, lower in supply, lower in supply, suddenly he has more supply, better upgrades, same worker count and one only wonder WTF happened.
I'm not saying TY should become Terran Rain, but maybe if he shifts 10 % of his multi-tasking into macro he can become the bestest everest
I think that’s overstated, people do occasionally mess up that armoury timing, in general no. Hell even I used to take pride in nailing it :p
I’m grinding watching a lot of games at the minute, I’m just not seeing a big mechanical gap at least. Maru does a lot of nice touches, those small depot walls and general positioning that all add up, and require you to be super on your game mechanically, all the stuff in that v Neeb game was tight.
If I was to guess much of it is decision-making and experience. Hyper-aggressive Maru makes consistently good decisions in when he commits and when he doesn’t, and executes really well.
When TY/Inno were considered to be better in really lategame scenarios with certain compositions, that wasn’t necessarily their mechanics being better, just that they adopted those gameplans earlier than Maru and got really good at working out how to play them and what mistakes they could make and avoid.
Maybe Maru thinks certain styles aren’t viable, or he needed more strings to his bow. I think his lategame is looking so good because he’s given it a lot of focus in working out the kinks
In terms of raw mechanics though I can’t see that gap really. He can still be a better player by all means I just don’t think he’s mechanically better than those two overall.
Inno is comparable to Maru macro wise, he has other issues (e.g. his speed and control have deteriorated from his prime). As such I didn't bring him up. But the mechanical gap between them and TY exists. TY gets supply blocked the most, he never has the armory finished at the right time to start 2/2 on his ebays, many small things like those that the rest of his play needs to compensate for (for example via positioning).
On April 22 2019 04:47 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: GuMiho had made an impressive finals run as one of only two Terran players in the tournament, and seemed the favorite to win after he defeated top Protoss Stats in the quarterfinals.
Did people really put Gumi as the favourite? Making the finals was basically free at that point, but Classic should have been the overwhelming favourite to win once Stats/Maru/soO were out.
I think some people tunnel-visioned the fact that GuMiho won 3-0 against Stats and that it would guarantee a victory against any other Protoss since Stats is generally considered the best P. What really needs to be seen is that while GuMi played mech against Stats like Maru did, it wasn't identical. Classic has always been a PvT monster with his gatewayman style, which seems to not work on Maru (as most things don't), but it sure did dissect GuMiho with his brand of MechvP.
I don't think GuMiho played mech in any way similar to Maru.
Maru used a hellion/cyclone core to constantly defend harass while doing his own harass. On this pivot he went into his late game with mass BC.
GuMiho on the other hand played ultra-defensive eventually getting up to Thors + BCs. This I believe is the weakness the slow army core. Without cyclone hellion Classic was just free to dance around the much scarier army and deal economic damage.
Maru on the other hand flipped that idea on its head countering with his own mobility taxing the protoss army as a result.
I don't even know if any other Terran can pull that off given how much constant multi-tasking it requires.
Well first off Maru didn't go into a mass BC late game at any point, there was no breathing room in his games against Stats for such a thing (and I would say if he had achieved a successful mass BC on Year Zero Stats would have lost).
Secondly, the biggest difficulty in my opinion isn't actually the offensive multitasking itself. It's the raw mechanical demands required to macro well behind it all. If you go back and rewatch the games against Stats, the style is actually not very cost-efficient at all. That means it's absolutely key to keep establishing economy over and over behind your attacks and keep up your production so that your inefficient trades never keep up.
So while I believe TY's offensive multitasking is better than Maru's and he could be an even bigger nuisance, I don't think he would be as successful with this style. Simply because Maru's economy and production management is unparalleled at this point.
Maybe if TY shifts more attention to the flawless macro and less to the multitasking... hmm (to me it appears that's what MAru did)
Stick with what you’re good at I guess?
I’m not even sure Maru’s macro and production timings are that much better, or at least appreciably better than Inno or TY.
I’ve heard this a lot, I’ve been watching games in detail pretty hardcore lately, I’ve watched those two steam over the years, hopefully Maru one day will do so as that’d be great.
I just am not really seeing windows where Maru is gaining an edge over those two in a pure macro/mechanical sense anyway.
I mean Gumiho could drop his unique approaches to the game and experimenting and try to hit mechanical perfection, probably wouldn’t go super well for him. And Gumiho you can watch, or he himself admits that he is absolutely behind those guys mechanically.
Watch the Artosis/NoShoeEaten(NoRegret ) analysis of Maru v Neeb. Artosis especially points out how the armory is precisely on time and how no other Terran does this consistently. To me it seems Maru shifted slightly away from aggression(this means he's not super omega mega giga aggressive but just omega mega giga aggressive) and is very precise about macro. Taeja/Polt were doing something similar(IIRC).
Maru moved into insane macro beast(similarly to Rogue but he is still cheesing while Rogue appears to not be that cheesy anymore). In some games it can be seen - Maru is lower in supply, lower in supply, lower in supply, suddenly he has more supply, better upgrades, same worker count and one only wonder WTF happened.
I'm not saying TY should become Terran Rain, but maybe if he shifts 10 % of his multi-tasking into macro he can become the bestest everest
I think that’s overstated, people do occasionally mess up that armoury timing, in general no. Hell even I used to take pride in nailing it :p
I’m grinding watching a lot of games at the minute, I’m just not seeing a big mechanical gap at least. Maru does a lot of nice touches, those small depot walls and general positioning that all add up, and require you to be super on your game mechanically, all the stuff in that v Neeb game was tight.
If I was to guess much of it is decision-making and experience. Hyper-aggressive Maru makes consistently good decisions in when he commits and when he doesn’t, and executes really well.
When TY/Inno were considered to be better in really lategame scenarios with certain compositions, that wasn’t necessarily their mechanics being better, just that they adopted those gameplans earlier than Maru and got really good at working out how to play them and what mistakes they could make and avoid.
Maybe Maru thinks certain styles aren’t viable, or he needed more strings to his bow. I think his lategame is looking so good because he’s given it a lot of focus in working out the kinks
In terms of raw mechanics though I can’t see that gap really. He can still be a better player by all means I just don’t think he’s mechanically better than those two overall.
Inno is comparable to Maru macro wise, he has other issues (e.g. his speed and control have deteriorated from his prime). As such I didn't bring him up. But the mechanical gap between them and TY exists. TY gets supply blocked the most, he never has the armory finished at the right time to start 2/2 on his ebays, many small things like those that the rest of his play needs to compensate for (for example via positioning).
We can only settle this when Maru streams so I can watch him super closely, slow motion and occasionally frame by frame. Well ok maybe not, although I watch a lot of streams purely to look at how they do things mechanically, way more than for build inspiration. Would be great to see anyway.
You're probably right there though. I’ve never really considered missing upgrades as a small thing mind, it triggers me greatly. They can make such a massive difference that not missing upgrades should be added to build workers, build units and don’t get supply blocked as absolute musts
On April 22 2019 05:02 Fango wrote: [quote] Did people really put Gumi as the favourite? Making the finals was basically free at that point, but Classic should have been the overwhelming favourite to win once Stats/Maru/soO were out.
I think some people tunnel-visioned the fact that GuMiho won 3-0 against Stats and that it would guarantee a victory against any other Protoss since Stats is generally considered the best P. What really needs to be seen is that while GuMi played mech against Stats like Maru did, it wasn't identical. Classic has always been a PvT monster with his gatewayman style, which seems to not work on Maru (as most things don't), but it sure did dissect GuMiho with his brand of MechvP.
I don't think GuMiho played mech in any way similar to Maru.
Maru used a hellion/cyclone core to constantly defend harass while doing his own harass. On this pivot he went into his late game with mass BC.
GuMiho on the other hand played ultra-defensive eventually getting up to Thors + BCs. This I believe is the weakness the slow army core. Without cyclone hellion Classic was just free to dance around the much scarier army and deal economic damage.
Maru on the other hand flipped that idea on its head countering with his own mobility taxing the protoss army as a result.
I don't even know if any other Terran can pull that off given how much constant multi-tasking it requires.
Well first off Maru didn't go into a mass BC late game at any point, there was no breathing room in his games against Stats for such a thing (and I would say if he had achieved a successful mass BC on Year Zero Stats would have lost).
Secondly, the biggest difficulty in my opinion isn't actually the offensive multitasking itself. It's the raw mechanical demands required to macro well behind it all. If you go back and rewatch the games against Stats, the style is actually not very cost-efficient at all. That means it's absolutely key to keep establishing economy over and over behind your attacks and keep up your production so that your inefficient trades never keep up.
So while I believe TY's offensive multitasking is better than Maru's and he could be an even bigger nuisance, I don't think he would be as successful with this style. Simply because Maru's economy and production management is unparalleled at this point.
Maybe if TY shifts more attention to the flawless macro and less to the multitasking... hmm (to me it appears that's what MAru did)
Stick with what you’re good at I guess?
I’m not even sure Maru’s macro and production timings are that much better, or at least appreciably better than Inno or TY.
I’ve heard this a lot, I’ve been watching games in detail pretty hardcore lately, I’ve watched those two steam over the years, hopefully Maru one day will do so as that’d be great.
I just am not really seeing windows where Maru is gaining an edge over those two in a pure macro/mechanical sense anyway.
I mean Gumiho could drop his unique approaches to the game and experimenting and try to hit mechanical perfection, probably wouldn’t go super well for him. And Gumiho you can watch, or he himself admits that he is absolutely behind those guys mechanically.
Watch the Artosis/NoShoeEaten(NoRegret ) analysis of Maru v Neeb. Artosis especially points out how the armory is precisely on time and how no other Terran does this consistently. To me it seems Maru shifted slightly away from aggression(this means he's not super omega mega giga aggressive but just omega mega giga aggressive) and is very precise about macro. Taeja/Polt were doing something similar(IIRC).
Maru moved into insane macro beast(similarly to Rogue but he is still cheesing while Rogue appears to not be that cheesy anymore). In some games it can be seen - Maru is lower in supply, lower in supply, lower in supply, suddenly he has more supply, better upgrades, same worker count and one only wonder WTF happened.
I'm not saying TY should become Terran Rain, but maybe if he shifts 10 % of his multi-tasking into macro he can become the bestest everest
I think that’s overstated, people do occasionally mess up that armoury timing, in general no. Hell even I used to take pride in nailing it :p
I’m grinding watching a lot of games at the minute, I’m just not seeing a big mechanical gap at least. Maru does a lot of nice touches, those small depot walls and general positioning that all add up, and require you to be super on your game mechanically, all the stuff in that v Neeb game was tight.
If I was to guess much of it is decision-making and experience. Hyper-aggressive Maru makes consistently good decisions in when he commits and when he doesn’t, and executes really well.
When TY/Inno were considered to be better in really lategame scenarios with certain compositions, that wasn’t necessarily their mechanics being better, just that they adopted those gameplans earlier than Maru and got really good at working out how to play them and what mistakes they could make and avoid.
Maybe Maru thinks certain styles aren’t viable, or he needed more strings to his bow. I think his lategame is looking so good because he’s given it a lot of focus in working out the kinks
In terms of raw mechanics though I can’t see that gap really. He can still be a better player by all means I just don’t think he’s mechanically better than those two overall.
Inno is comparable to Maru macro wise, he has other issues (e.g. his speed and control have deteriorated from his prime). As such I didn't bring him up. But the mechanical gap between them and TY exists. TY gets supply blocked the most, he never has the armory finished at the right time to start 2/2 on his ebays, many small things like those that the rest of his play needs to compensate for (for example via positioning).
We can only settle this when Maru streams so I can watch him super closely, slow motion and occasionally frame by frame. Well ok maybe not, although I watch a lot of streams purely to look at how they do things mechanically, way more than for build inspiration. Would be great to see anyway.
You're probably right there though. I’ve never really considered missing upgrades as a small thing mind, it triggers me greatly. They can make such a massive difference that not missing upgrades should be added to build workers, build units and don’t get supply blocked as absolute musts
Maru streams sometimes but very rarely. I think if you search through his TL fan club you can find some old VODs linked there. Although I will say TY's ladder play on stream is probably 200 MMR below his play in GSL.
EPT
(to me it appears that's what MAru did)
) analysis of Maru v Neeb. Artosis especially points out how the armory is precisely on time and how no other Terran does this consistently. To me it seems Maru shifted slightly away from aggression(this means he's not super omega mega giga aggressive but just omega mega giga aggressive) and is very precise about macro. Taeja/Polt were doing something similar(IIRC).
