Offline qualifiers for 2019 GSL Super Tournament I will be held on April 8th
Qualifiers Application Period - March 29th, 2019 – April 4th, 2019 Thursday 23:59 (KST)
GSL Super Tournament I Qualifiers Offline Event: Date: April 8th(Monday) 2019 (KST) Location: AfreecaTV PC Bang, Jamsilsaenae Station, Seoul
Participation Requirements: - Must be at least 12 years old - Need to have a SC2 Battle.net account (cannot use your family's or friends' accounts) - Masters/Grandmaster league players (Any Region)
Match Format: - Bo3 / Double Elimination
Map Pool - 1Set New Repugnancy - 2Set Port Aleksander - 3Set King’s Cove
Please send the following information to gsl@afreecatv.com for your application. - Full Name: - Birth date: - Country: - Phone Number or Skype ID: - Battle.Net SCII Account: - Ladder Score: - StarCraft II Character Name: - Team: - Race: - Email address:
If you have any questions, please feel free to contact us at gsl@afreecatv.com
Okay there isn't an official stream but is there any stream at all to watch some of the games?
Given that NoRegreT hasn't said anything on Twitter, and the Taiwanese person that sometimes streams these isn't live I'd assume there aren't any streams this time.
Okay there isn't an official stream but is there any stream at all to watch some of the games?
Given that NoRegreT hasn't said anything on Twitter, and the Taiwanese person that sometimes streams these isn't live I'd assume there aren't any streams this time.
Okay there isn't an official stream but is there any stream at all to watch some of the games?
Given that NoRegreT hasn't said anything on Twitter, and the Taiwanese person that sometimes streams these isn't live I'd assume there aren't any streams this time.
It's really disappointing when players who have potential or are coming back often just seem to opt out of competition when it gets serious: Taeja seemingly did not show up vs MC and then vs alive in the LB. TREME, an old face from 2015 also donated def-wins to his opponents. Dandy didn't try either although his opponent impact could've been doable for him. DRG also let his chance of a kind of easy first opponent in Patience slip away.
I mean, yes, there always can happen stuff that hinders you and playing against the best of the best is probably quite intimidating but I see this so often that it is just unlikely that this is not some kind of nerves/anxiety/motivation-problem. It's so sad because I think those players are giving opportunites away and by deciding to rather not participate they're making it even more unlikely that they'll climb to the top, ever. Especially players like Taeja and Dandy who are on a team should have some kind of conscientiousness.
---- This is why I still think we need some kind of Code A in Korea in order to give realistic opportunities to lesser players.
On April 08 2019 20:48 swarminfestor wrote: What's wrong with Korean Terran players? Only 2 of them in the ro 16. Even Special also cannot advances. Where are all new bloods?
Maru exists so every other terran player has to suffer.
A lot of terran player are complaining and it's also my feeling that terran is very hard at the level today. But I don't now realy what is happening in the meta game today. What is it that making they not win?
On April 08 2019 20:48 swarminfestor wrote: What's wrong with Korean Terran players? Only 2 of them in the ro 16. Even Special also cannot advances. Where are all new bloods?
Maru exists so every other terran player has to suffer.
I shouldn't be the one to tell you Inno won WESG(only Terran can win that tournament, apparently. Will they move the next to the second half of 2020 so that Byun could play it?); if you are right about Terran not being as strong as the other races, it's both Code S format(TY could have easily S3 2018) and Maru being incapable of releasing his full potential in weekenders that are condemning the race. TvZ, in fact, seems fair(if not Terran favored late game) while TvP is a polarized and boring matchup whose win ratios are reasonable at the end of the day.
I still think IEM groupstages were a weird anomaly(the opponents were known in advance, there was time to prepare for each of them), while the last korean qualifiers including this one are showing a worrying Protoss overabundance at the expense of Terran; I mean, I am glad the Bigggg Boy is back but Patience and Hurricane instead of TY and Bunny really hurts.
Judging by the lineup I'd say either Rogue or Stats/Classic/Zest/sOs/herO is gonna win this; if Maru doesn't take home his fourth Code S, I'd be actually pleasantly surprised to see him add a Super Tournament to his record of achievements.
Only 1 Terran qualified to go along with Maru who was seeded. I get that INnoVatIon could be feeling unmotivated after collecting his WESG loot, but what's TY's excuse? Even in a world where Hurricane suddenly took the leap from decent to good, TY shouldn't lose to him twice.
On April 08 2019 20:48 swarminfestor wrote: What's wrong with Korean Terran players? Only 2 of them in the ro 16. Even Special also cannot advances. Where are all new bloods?
Maru exists so every other terran player has to suffer.
I shouldn't be the one to tell you Inno won WESG(only Terran can win that tournament, apparently. Will they move the next to the second half of 2020 so that Byun could play it?); if you are right about Terran not being as strong as the other races, it's both Code S format(TY could have easily S3 2018) and Maru being incapable of releasing his full potential in weekenders that are condemning the race. TvZ, in fact, seems fair(if not Terran favored late game) while TvP is a polarized and boring matchup whose win ratios are reasonable at the end of the day.
I still think IEM groupstages were a weird anomaly(the opponents were known in advance, there was time to prepare for each of them), while the last korean qualifiers including this one are showing a worrying Protoss overabundance at the expense of Terran; I mean, I am glad the Bigggg Boy is back but Patience and Hurricane instead of TY and Bunny really hurts.
Judging by the lineup I'd say either Rogue or Stats/Classic/Zest/sOs/herO is gonna win this; if Maru doesn't take home his fourth Code S, I'd be actually pleasantly surprised to see him add a Super Tournament to his record of achievements.
How about we will use WCS as the Terran suffering tournament? We obviously can't have Terrans there...
WESG these top players there. Dark(Z), Serral(Z), Innovation(T) and Maru(T). Serral removed Dark from the equation and from then onwards we had pretty high chances of T winning the whole thing, because Scarlett isn't good enough(which wasn't as much true, but still...) and Serral has weak ZvT against good Koreans.
Using WESG is as stupid as it can get.
Edit> Or how about we use IEM? Except Code S Terrans are not playing especially good in weekenders. And ST just proves the IEM state. Terrans can prepare and show good builds, Terrans can overcome worse players, otherwise it seems they're incapable of qualifying.
Edit 2> Oh, shouldn't just scim through. So IEM was annomaly. And GSL ST is another anomaly? How many more anomalies?
On April 08 2019 20:50 fronkschnonk wrote: It's really disappointing when players who have potential or are coming back often just seem to opt out of competition when it gets serious: Taeja seemingly did not show up vs MC and then vs alive in the LB. TREME, an old face from 2015 also donated def-wins to his opponents. Dandy didn't try either although his opponent impact could've been doable for him. DRG also let his chance of a kind of easy first opponent in Patience slip away.
I mean, yes, there always can happen stuff that hinders you and playing against the best of the best is probably quite intimidating but I see this so often that it is just unlikely that this is not some kind of nerves/anxiety/motivation-problem. It's so sad because I think those players are giving opportunites away and by deciding to rather not participate they're making it even more unlikely that they'll climb to the top, ever. Especially players like Taeja and Dandy who are on a team should have some kind of conscientiousness.
---- This is why I still think we need some kind of Code A in Korea in order to give realistic opportunities to lesser players.
On April 08 2019 20:48 swarminfestor wrote: What's wrong with Korean Terran players? Only 2 of them in the ro 16. Even Special also cannot advances. Where are all new bloods?
Maru exists so every other terran player has to suffer.
I shouldn't be the one to tell you Inno won WESG(only Terran can win that tournament, apparently. Will they move the next to the second half of 2020 so that Byun could play it?); if you are right about Terran not being as strong as the other races, it's both Code S format(TY could have easily S3 2018) and Maru being incapable of releasing his full potential in weekenders that are condemning the race. TvZ, in fact, seems fair(if not Terran favored late game) while TvP is a polarized and boring matchup whose win ratios are reasonable at the end of the day.
I still think IEM groupstages were a weird anomaly(the opponents were known in advance, there was time to prepare for each of them), while the last korean qualifiers including this one are showing a worrying Protoss overabundance at the expense of Terran; I mean, I am glad the Bigggg Boy is back but Patience and Hurricane instead of TY and Bunny really hurts.
Judging by the lineup I'd say either Rogue or Stats/Classic/Zest/sOs/herO is gonna win this; if Maru doesn't take home his fourth Code S, I'd be actually pleasantly surprised to see him add a Super Tournament to his record of achievements.
How about we will use WCS as the Terran suffering tournament? We obviously can't have Terrans there...
WESG these top players there. Dark(Z), Serral(Z), Innovation(T) and Maru(T). Serral removed Dark from the equation and from then onwards we had pretty high chances of T winning the whole thing, because Scarlett isn't good enough(which wasn't as much true, but still...) and Serral has weak ZvT against good Koreans.
Using WESG is as stupid as it can get.
Edit> Or how about we use IEM? Except Code S Terrans are not playing especially good in weekenders. And ST just proves the IEM state. Terrans can prepare and show good builds, Terrans can overcome worse players, otherwise it seems they're incapable of qualifying.
Edit 2> Oh, shouldn't just scim through. So IEM was annomaly. And GSL ST is another anomaly? How many more anomalies?
Unfortunately, your unpleasant approach is not one anomaly; treating likely(?) happenings as they were obvious and granted truly is stupid, definitely not remembering a non Maru Terran won 150k in a Premier tournament few weeks ago.
The idea of Serral having weak ZvT against good koreans is a myth you guys gave birth to; he actually lost quite closely against Inno alone and then got pwnd by Heromarine before totally dismantling him yesterday. You come up with Maru 3-0ing Serral at WESG 2017 but he wasn't yet the top tier player he became afterwards:Serral's ZvT looked very sharp at GSL vs the World;,while ZvT is Serral's weakest matchup overall he wasn't especially weak at the matchup in 2019, he just isn't on god level tier at the moment having lost three series in ZvT, three in ZvZ and one in ZvP already this year.
I'm not sure if you can actually read the entirety of my posts before rushing to answer me with basically memes, but I outright said IEM seems like one anomaly since, despite it's a weekender, Terran did have problems getting through the groups the had weeks to prepare for(the "Terran is weak at the weekenders" theory would have implied eliminations in the playoffs); moreover, I said the qualifiers for both Code S(the main phase told us a different truth, but that's coherent with the idea Terran get better if they have time to prepare) and Super Tournament are indeed showing a disproportionate amount of Protoss qualifying over Terran.
On April 08 2019 20:48 swarminfestor wrote: What's wrong with Korean Terran players? Only 2 of them in the ro 16. Even Special also cannot advances. Where are all new bloods?
Maru exists so every other terran player has to suffer.
I shouldn't be the one to tell you Inno won WESG(only Terran can win that tournament, apparently. Will they move the next to the second half of 2020 so that Byun could play it?); if you are right about Terran not being as strong as the other races, it's both Code S format(TY could have easily S3 2018) and Maru being incapable of releasing his full potential in weekenders that are condemning the race. TvZ, in fact, seems fair(if not Terran favored late game) while TvP is a polarized and boring matchup whose win ratios are reasonable at the end of the day.
I still think IEM groupstages were a weird anomaly(the opponents were known in advance, there was time to prepare for each of them), while the last korean qualifiers including this one are showing a worrying Protoss overabundance at the expense of Terran; I mean, I am glad the Bigggg Boy is back but Patience and Hurricane instead of TY and Bunny really hurts.
Judging by the lineup I'd say either Rogue or Stats/Classic/Zest/sOs/herO is gonna win this; if Maru doesn't take home his fourth Code S, I'd be actually pleasantly surprised to see him add a Super Tournament to his record of achievements.
How about we will use WCS as the Terran suffering tournament? We obviously can't have Terrans there...
WESG these top players there. Dark(Z), Serral(Z), Innovation(T) and Maru(T). Serral removed Dark from the equation and from then onwards we had pretty high chances of T winning the whole thing, because Scarlett isn't good enough(which wasn't as much true, but still...) and Serral has weak ZvT against good Koreans.
Using WESG is as stupid as it can get.
Edit> Or how about we use IEM? Except Code S Terrans are not playing especially good in weekenders. And ST just proves the IEM state. Terrans can prepare and show good builds, Terrans can overcome worse players, otherwise it seems they're incapable of qualifying.
Edit 2> Oh, shouldn't just scim through. So IEM was annomaly. And GSL ST is another anomaly? How many more anomalies?
Unfortunately, your unpleasant approach is not one anomaly; treating likely(?) happenings as they were obvious and granted truly is stupid, definitely not remembering a non Maru Terran won 150k in a Premier tournament few weeks ago.
The idea of Serral having weak ZvT against good koreans is a myth you guys gave birth to; he actually lost quite closely against Inno alone and then got pwnd by Heromarine before totally dismantling him yesterday. You come up with Maru 3-0ing Serral at WESG 2017 but he wasn't yet the top tier player he became afterwards:Serral's ZvT looked very sharp at GSL vs the World;,while ZvT is Serral's weakest matchup overall he wasn't especially weak at the matchup in 2019, he just isn't on god level tier at the moment having lost three series in ZvT, three in ZvZ and one in ZvP already this year.
I'm not sure if you can actually read the entirety of my posts before rushing to answer me with basically memes, but I outright said IEM seems like one anomaly since, despite it's a weekender, Terran did have problems getting through the groups the had weeks to prepare for(the "Terran is weak at the weekenders" theory would have implied eliminations in the playoffs); moreover, I said the qualifiers for both Code S(the main phase told us a different truth, but that's coherent with the idea Terran get better if they have time to prepare) and Super Tournament are indeed showing a disproportionate amount of Protoss qualifying over Terran.
Serral got totally smashed by Inno twice in a row. Then lost to a foreign terran in heromarine. His ZvT is weak, Maru would humiliate him yet again if they meet sometime this year.
Moreover, Serral is a patchzerg. Even TL agrees, there was an article about it last week.
I bet in every TvP that ended 1-2 (either way), the Terran won on New Repugnancy, lost on Port Aleksander and cursed the fact that Kairos Junction wasn't in the map pool.
On April 08 2019 20:48 swarminfestor wrote: What's wrong with Korean Terran players? Only 2 of them in the ro 16. Even Special also cannot advances. Where are all new bloods?
Maru exists so every other terran player has to suffer.
I shouldn't be the one to tell you Inno won WESG(only Terran can win that tournament, apparently. Will they move the next to the second half of 2020 so that Byun could play it?); if you are right about Terran not being as strong as the other races, it's both Code S format(TY could have easily S3 2018) and Maru being incapable of releasing his full potential in weekenders that are condemning the race. TvZ, in fact, seems fair(if not Terran favored late game) while TvP is a polarized and boring matchup whose win ratios are reasonable at the end of the day.
I still think IEM groupstages were a weird anomaly(the opponents were known in advance, there was time to prepare for each of them), while the last korean qualifiers including this one are showing a worrying Protoss overabundance at the expense of Terran; I mean, I am glad the Bigggg Boy is back but Patience and Hurricane instead of TY and Bunny really hurts.
Judging by the lineup I'd say either Rogue or Stats/Classic/Zest/sOs/herO is gonna win this; if Maru doesn't take home his fourth Code S, I'd be actually pleasantly surprised to see him add a Super Tournament to his record of achievements.
How about we will use WCS as the Terran suffering tournament? We obviously can't have Terrans there...
WESG these top players there. Dark(Z), Serral(Z), Innovation(T) and Maru(T). Serral removed Dark from the equation and from then onwards we had pretty high chances of T winning the whole thing, because Scarlett isn't good enough(which wasn't as much true, but still...) and Serral has weak ZvT against good Koreans.
Using WESG is as stupid as it can get.
Edit> Or how about we use IEM? Except Code S Terrans are not playing especially good in weekenders. And ST just proves the IEM state. Terrans can prepare and show good builds, Terrans can overcome worse players, otherwise it seems they're incapable of qualifying.
Edit 2> Oh, shouldn't just scim through. So IEM was annomaly. And GSL ST is another anomaly? How many more anomalies?
Unfortunately, your unpleasant approach is not one anomaly; treating likely(?) happenings as they were obvious and granted truly is stupid, definitely not remembering a non Maru Terran won 150k in a Premier tournament few weeks ago.
The idea of Serral having weak ZvT against good koreans is a myth you guys gave birth to; he actually lost quite closely against Inno alone and then got pwnd by Heromarine before totally dismantling him yesterday. You come up with Maru 3-0ing Serral at WESG 2017 but he wasn't yet the top tier player he became afterwards:Serral's ZvT looked very sharp at GSL vs the World;,while ZvT is Serral's weakest matchup overall he wasn't especially weak at the matchup in 2019, he just isn't on god level tier at the moment having lost three series in ZvT, three in ZvZ and one in ZvP already this year.
I'm not sure if you can actually read the entirety of my posts before rushing to answer me with basically memes, but I outright said IEM seems like one anomaly since, despite it's a weekender, Terran did have problems getting through the groups the had weeks to prepare for(the "Terran is weak at the weekenders" theory would have implied eliminations in the playoffs); moreover, I said the qualifiers for both Code S(the main phase told us a different truth, but that's coherent with the idea Terran get better if they have time to prepare) and Super Tournament are indeed showing a disproportionate amount of Protoss qualifying over Terran.
Serral got totally smashed by Inno twice in a row. Then lost to a foreign terran in heromarine. His ZvT is weak, Maru would humiliate him yet again if they meet sometime this year.
Moreover, Serral is a patchzerg. Even TL agrees, there was an article about it last week.
Which Maru? The one who lost to Meomaika and Leenock while very closely defeating Impact and Scarlett? Think again. The best Maru would crush this Serral, for sure, while Serral vs Maru when both were at their peaks would have really been a dream match(I'm convinced Serral would have taken this but the opposite is just as likely; that match at GSL vs The World was a nice peek, despite having almost nothing at stake).
I said this once and I'll repeat until I can't write anymore, your idea of being smashed is completely wrong:1-2,3-4 to 4-6 overal seem onesided to you? If this didn't make evident to everyone you lack understanding, your next sentence clarifies it once and for all: that article was a humorous one, you know…
I would have liked to discuss the results of Super Tournament's qualifiers but it seems like you guys just cannot avoid to mention Serral(in a derogative way, of course).
On April 08 2019 23:36 Xain0n wrote: Which Maru? The one who lost to Meomaika and Leenock while very closely defeating Impact and Scarlett? Think again. The best Maru would crush this Serral, for sure, while Serral vs Maru when both were at their peaks would have really been a dream match(I'm convinced Serral would have taken this but the opposite is just as likely; that match at GSL vs The World was a nice peek, despite having almost nothing at stake).
Of course peak Serral wouldn't have lost to Maru because Serral fans define any time he loses as not being him at his peak form which therefore means it doesn't count. Serral was 18-0 in maps at WESG against WCS Circuit level competition (Has, Minato, Showtime, Bly, Lambo, Elazer, and Neeb) before facing Maru who was only 18-1 but he allegedly wasn't at his peak.
On April 08 2019 23:36 Xain0n wrote: Which Maru? The one who lost to Meomaika and Leenock while very closely defeating Impact and Scarlett? Think again. The best Maru would crush this Serral, for sure, while Serral vs Maru when both were at their peaks would have really been a dream match(I'm convinced Serral would have taken this but the opposite is just as likely; that match at GSL vs The World was a nice peek, despite having almost nothing at stake).
Of course peak Serral wouldn't have lost to Maru because Serral fans define any time he loses as not being him at his peak form which therefore means it doesn't count. Serral was 18-0 in maps at WESG against WCS Circuit level competition (Has, Minato, Showtime, Bly, Lambo, Elazer, and Neeb) before facing Maru who was only 18-1 but he allegedly wasn't at his peak.
That's not the point. Serral had not won a single international tournament yet when he faced Maru at WESG, not to mention his 0-3 loss was crushing(yea, we can use that term for a sweep even if g1 and partially g3 were well fought) while Dark fared much better against Maru who had to resort to(legit, of course) cheeses to beat him 4-3; not exactly what a peak should look like, he was at 2017 Neeb level:crushing foreigners, not yet capable of beating korean in finals. Maru started to peak at that very tournament instead.
On April 08 2019 20:48 swarminfestor wrote: What's wrong with Korean Terran players? Only 2 of them in the ro 16. Even Special also cannot advances. Where are all new bloods?
Maru exists so every other terran player has to suffer.
I shouldn't be the one to tell you Inno won WESG(only Terran can win that tournament, apparently. Will they move the next to the second half of 2020 so that Byun could play it?); if you are right about Terran not being as strong as the other races, it's both Code S format(TY could have easily S3 2018) and Maru being incapable of releasing his full potential in weekenders that are condemning the race. TvZ, in fact, seems fair(if not Terran favored late game) while TvP is a polarized and boring matchup whose win ratios are reasonable at the end of the day.
I still think IEM groupstages were a weird anomaly(the opponents were known in advance, there was time to prepare for each of them), while the last korean qualifiers including this one are showing a worrying Protoss overabundance at the expense of Terran; I mean, I am glad the Bigggg Boy is back but Patience and Hurricane instead of TY and Bunny really hurts.
Judging by the lineup I'd say either Rogue or Stats/Classic/Zest/sOs/herO is gonna win this; if Maru doesn't take home his fourth Code S, I'd be actually pleasantly surprised to see him add a Super Tournament to his record of achievements.
How about we will use WCS as the Terran suffering tournament? We obviously can't have Terrans there...
WESG these top players there. Dark(Z), Serral(Z), Innovation(T) and Maru(T). Serral removed Dark from the equation and from then onwards we had pretty high chances of T winning the whole thing, because Scarlett isn't good enough(which wasn't as much true, but still...) and Serral has weak ZvT against good Koreans.
Using WESG is as stupid as it can get.
Edit> Or how about we use IEM? Except Code S Terrans are not playing especially good in weekenders. And ST just proves the IEM state. Terrans can prepare and show good builds, Terrans can overcome worse players, otherwise it seems they're incapable of qualifying.
Edit 2> Oh, shouldn't just scim through. So IEM was annomaly. And GSL ST is another anomaly? How many more anomalies?
Unfortunately, your unpleasant approach is not one anomaly; treating likely(?) happenings as they were obvious and granted truly is stupid, definitely not remembering a non Maru Terran won 150k in a Premier tournament few weeks ago.
The idea of Serral having weak ZvT against good koreans is a myth you guys gave birth to; he actually lost quite closely against Inno alone and then got pwnd by Heromarine before totally dismantling him yesterday. You come up with Maru 3-0ing Serral at WESG 2017 but he wasn't yet the top tier player he became afterwards:Serral's ZvT looked very sharp at GSL vs the World;,while ZvT is Serral's weakest matchup overall he wasn't especially weak at the matchup in 2019, he just isn't on god level tier at the moment having lost three series in ZvT, three in ZvZ and one in ZvP already this year.
I'm not sure if you can actually read the entirety of my posts before rushing to answer me with basically memes, but I outright said IEM seems like one anomaly since, despite it's a weekender, Terran did have problems getting through the groups the had weeks to prepare for(the "Terran is weak at the weekenders" theory would have implied eliminations in the playoffs); moreover, I said the qualifiers for both Code S(the main phase told us a different truth, but that's coherent with the idea Terran get better if they have time to prepare) and Super Tournament are indeed showing a disproportionate amount of Protoss qualifying over Terran.
Serral got totally smashed by Inno twice in a row. Then lost to a foreign terran in heromarine. His ZvT is weak, Maru would humiliate him yet again if they meet sometime this year.
Moreover, Serral is a patchzerg. Even TL agrees, there was an article about it last week.
Nice try Rodya, nice bait
Kinda funny how one can make literally ANY thread about Maru and Serral sooner or later.
On April 08 2019 23:36 Xain0n wrote: Which Maru? The one who lost to Meomaika and Leenock while very closely defeating Impact and Scarlett? Think again. The best Maru would crush this Serral, for sure, while Serral vs Maru when both were at their peaks would have really been a dream match(I'm convinced Serral would have taken this but the opposite is just as likely; that match at GSL vs The World was a nice peek, despite having almost nothing at stake).
Of course peak Serral wouldn't have lost to Maru because Serral fans define any time he loses as not being him at his peak form which therefore means it doesn't count. Serral was 18-0 in maps at WESG against WCS Circuit level competition (Has, Minato, Showtime, Bly, Lambo, Elazer, and Neeb) before facing Maru who was only 18-1 but he allegedly wasn't at his peak.
That's not the point. Serral had not won a single international tournament yet when he faced Maru at WESG, not to mention his 0-3 loss was crushing(yea, we can use that term for a sweep even if g1 and partially g3 were well fought) while Dark fared much better against Maru who had to resort to(legit, of course) cheeses to beat him 4-3; not exactly what a peak should look like, he was at 2017 Neeb level:crushing foreigners, not yet capable of beating korean in finals. Maru started to peak at that very tournament instead.
Or maybe it's because he faced Maru there while avoiding him at GSLvTW and Blizzcon, not because he wasn't at his "peak".
2002 SKY OSL It's prophesized, when there's only 2 members of a race in the Ro16, one gets eliminated immediately and the other single handedly carries the race on his [ridiculously manly] shoulders.
On April 08 2019 23:36 Xain0n wrote: Which Maru? The one who lost to Meomaika and Leenock while very closely defeating Impact and Scarlett? Think again. The best Maru would crush this Serral, for sure, while Serral vs Maru when both were at their peaks would have really been a dream match(I'm convinced Serral would have taken this but the opposite is just as likely; that match at GSL vs The World was a nice peek, despite having almost nothing at stake).
Of course peak Serral wouldn't have lost to Maru because Serral fans define any time he loses as not being him at his peak form which therefore means it doesn't count. Serral was 18-0 in maps at WESG against WCS Circuit level competition (Has, Minato, Showtime, Bly, Lambo, Elazer, and Neeb) before facing Maru who was only 18-1 but he allegedly wasn't at his peak.
That's not the point. Serral had not won a single international tournament yet when he faced Maru at WESG, not to mention his 0-3 loss was crushing(yea, we can use that term for a sweep even if g1 and partially g3 were well fought) while Dark fared much better against Maru who had to resort to(legit, of course) cheeses to beat him 4-3; not exactly what a peak should look like, he was at 2017 Neeb level:crushing foreigners, not yet capable of beating korean in finals. Maru started to peak at that very tournament instead.
Or maybe it's because he faced Maru there while avoiding him at GSLvTW and Blizzcon, not because he wasn't at his "peak".
Your opinion entirely, shape fluctuates and players evolve and/or involve; now you are saying Serral at WESG 2017 was as strong as he was after April? His level of play says otherwise, so do his results(he actually started beating koreans in finals instead of losing in the ro4), it's a bold statement to affirm he reached his apex as early as March 2018.
Serral played Maru at GSL vs the World, just not in the main tournament; however, it's not like he actively avoid to face him in the main tournament...Maru just lost before getting to play Serral(the first of many subsequent times).
Serral's ZvZ and ZvP were at their apex at BlizzCon, we simply didn't get to see his ZvT; it appeared to have extremely improved after WESG considering he smashed Inno and beat Maru in the team competition at GSL vs the World.
We will never know who would have won with them being at their best, Maru's TvZ was his best matchup in 2018 but Serral consistently appeared godlike. What I am sure of, however, is that that hypothetical series would have been very different from the one they played at WESG.
On April 08 2019 23:36 Xain0n wrote: Which Maru? The one who lost to Meomaika and Leenock while very closely defeating Impact and Scarlett? Think again. The best Maru would crush this Serral, for sure, while Serral vs Maru when both were at their peaks would have really been a dream match(I'm convinced Serral would have taken this but the opposite is just as likely; that match at GSL vs The World was a nice peek, despite having almost nothing at stake).
Of course peak Serral wouldn't have lost to Maru because Serral fans define any time he loses as not being him at his peak form which therefore means it doesn't count. Serral was 18-0 in maps at WESG against WCS Circuit level competition (Has, Minato, Showtime, Bly, Lambo, Elazer, and Neeb) before facing Maru who was only 18-1 but he allegedly wasn't at his peak.
That's not the point. Serral had not won a single international tournament yet when he faced Maru at WESG, not to mention his 0-3 loss was crushing(yea, we can use that term for a sweep even if g1 and partially g3 were well fought) while Dark fared much better against Maru who had to resort to(legit, of course) cheeses to beat him 4-3; not exactly what a peak should look like, he was at 2017 Neeb level:crushing foreigners, not yet capable of beating korean in finals. Maru started to peak at that very tournament instead.
Or maybe it's because he faced Maru there while avoiding him at GSLvTW and Blizzcon, not because he wasn't at his "peak".
Your opinion entirely, shape fluctuates and players evolve and/or involve; now you are saying Serral at WESG 2017 was as strong as he was after April? His level of play says otherwise, so do his results(he actually started beating koreans in finals instead of losing in the ro4), it's a bold statement to affirm he reached his apex as early as March 2018.
Serral played Maru at GSL vs the World, just not in the main tournament; however, it's not like he actively avoid to face him in the main tournament...Maru just lost before getting to play Serral(the first of many subsequent times).
Serral's ZvZ and ZvP were at their apex at BlizzCon, we simply didn't get to see his ZvT; it appeared to have extremely improved after WESG considering he smashed Inno and beat Maru in the team competition at GSL vs the World.
We will never know who would have won with them being at their best, Maru's TvZ was his best matchup in 2018 but Serral consistently appeared godlike. What I am sure of, however, is that that hypothetical series would have been very different from the one they played at WESG.
Correct, it's my opinion entirely just as it's your opinion entirely that Serral was only at his peak at GSL vs the world and Blizzcon.
On April 08 2019 23:36 Xain0n wrote: Which Maru? The one who lost to Meomaika and Leenock while very closely defeating Impact and Scarlett? Think again. The best Maru would crush this Serral, for sure, while Serral vs Maru when both were at their peaks would have really been a dream match(I'm convinced Serral would have taken this but the opposite is just as likely; that match at GSL vs The World was a nice peek, despite having almost nothing at stake).
Of course peak Serral wouldn't have lost to Maru because Serral fans define any time he loses as not being him at his peak form which therefore means it doesn't count. Serral was 18-0 in maps at WESG against WCS Circuit level competition (Has, Minato, Showtime, Bly, Lambo, Elazer, and Neeb) before facing Maru who was only 18-1 but he allegedly wasn't at his peak.
That's not the point. Serral had not won a single international tournament yet when he faced Maru at WESG, not to mention his 0-3 loss was crushing(yea, we can use that term for a sweep even if g1 and partially g3 were well fought) while Dark fared much better against Maru who had to resort to(legit, of course) cheeses to beat him 4-3; not exactly what a peak should look like, he was at 2017 Neeb level:crushing foreigners, not yet capable of beating korean in finals. Maru started to peak at that very tournament instead.
Or maybe it's because he faced Maru there while avoiding him at GSLvTW and Blizzcon, not because he wasn't at his "peak".
Your opinion entirely, shape fluctuates and players evolve and/or involve; now you are saying Serral at WESG 2017 was as strong as he was after April? His level of play says otherwise, so do his results(he actually started beating koreans in finals instead of losing in the ro4), it's a bold statement to affirm he reached his apex as early as March 2018.
Serral played Maru at GSL vs the World, just not in the main tournament; however, it's not like he actively avoid to face him in the main tournament...Maru just lost before getting to play Serral(the first of many subsequent times).
Serral's ZvZ and ZvP were at their apex at BlizzCon, we simply didn't get to see his ZvT; it appeared to have extremely improved after WESG considering he smashed Inno and beat Maru in the team competition at GSL vs the World.
We will never know who would have won with them being at their best, Maru's TvZ was his best matchup in 2018 but Serral consistently appeared godlike. What I am sure of, however, is that that hypothetical series would have been very different from the one they played at WESG.
Correct, it's my opinion entirely just as it's your opinion entirely that Serral was only at his peak at GSL vs the world and Blizzcon.
Am I the only one who really thinks about writing a plugin to ignore this dude? Not only he's a fanboy, but he writes wall of texts I don't want to read, but skipping such walls requires lot of scrolling. Serral is the toppest of the top and that's why he lost to soO, Innovation, Neeb, Raynor. And when he lost to Maru he wasn't in his peak, otherwise he dominated the whole 2018, he didn't dominate the GSL but let's ignore that because who cares about Code S. WCS is the bestest everest competition and he won it 4 times in a row!!!#!!
Edit> Just thinking about it - we have again the Mvp situation. BL infestor is fiiiiiiiiiiiiiine, no worries, Terrans are fine, Mvp can win games! Play like Mvp!!! We have 2 "weekend" tournaments with top players without meaningful Terran representation but everything is fine. We don't even try to look for the cause(it's not BL infestor, or is it? )
On April 08 2019 23:36 Xain0n wrote: Which Maru? The one who lost to Meomaika and Leenock while very closely defeating Impact and Scarlett? Think again. The best Maru would crush this Serral, for sure, while Serral vs Maru when both were at their peaks would have really been a dream match(I'm convinced Serral would have taken this but the opposite is just as likely; that match at GSL vs The World was a nice peek, despite having almost nothing at stake).
Of course peak Serral wouldn't have lost to Maru because Serral fans define any time he loses as not being him at his peak form which therefore means it doesn't count. Serral was 18-0 in maps at WESG against WCS Circuit level competition (Has, Minato, Showtime, Bly, Lambo, Elazer, and Neeb) before facing Maru who was only 18-1 but he allegedly wasn't at his peak.
That's not the point. Serral had not won a single international tournament yet when he faced Maru at WESG, not to mention his 0-3 loss was crushing(yea, we can use that term for a sweep even if g1 and partially g3 were well fought) while Dark fared much better against Maru who had to resort to(legit, of course) cheeses to beat him 4-3; not exactly what a peak should look like, he was at 2017 Neeb level:crushing foreigners, not yet capable of beating korean in finals. Maru started to peak at that very tournament instead.
Or maybe it's because he faced Maru there while avoiding him at GSLvTW and Blizzcon, not because he wasn't at his "peak".
Your opinion entirely, shape fluctuates and players evolve and/or involve; now you are saying Serral at WESG 2017 was as strong as he was after April? His level of play says otherwise, so do his results(he actually started beating koreans in finals instead of losing in the ro4), it's a bold statement to affirm he reached his apex as early as March 2018.
Serral played Maru at GSL vs the World, just not in the main tournament; however, it's not like he actively avoid to face him in the main tournament...Maru just lost before getting to play Serral(the first of many subsequent times).
Serral's ZvZ and ZvP were at their apex at BlizzCon, we simply didn't get to see his ZvT; it appeared to have extremely improved after WESG considering he smashed Inno and beat Maru in the team competition at GSL vs the World.
We will never know who would have won with them being at their best, Maru's TvZ was his best matchup in 2018 but Serral consistently appeared godlike. What I am sure of, however, is that that hypothetical series would have been very different from the one they played at WESG.
Correct, it's my opinion entirely just as it's your opinion entirely that Serral was only at his peak at GSL vs the world and Blizzcon.
No way, this is not my opinion alone. Results speak clearly in my favor(Serral losing ro4 against top koreans magically becomes Serral beating top koreans in finals, dropping series turns into not losing any offline in eight months), what do you have your side other than your enlightened vision?
On April 08 2019 23:36 Xain0n wrote: Which Maru? The one who lost to Meomaika and Leenock while very closely defeating Impact and Scarlett? Think again. The best Maru would crush this Serral, for sure, while Serral vs Maru when both were at their peaks would have really been a dream match(I'm convinced Serral would have taken this but the opposite is just as likely; that match at GSL vs The World was a nice peek, despite having almost nothing at stake).
Of course peak Serral wouldn't have lost to Maru because Serral fans define any time he loses as not being him at his peak form which therefore means it doesn't count. Serral was 18-0 in maps at WESG against WCS Circuit level competition (Has, Minato, Showtime, Bly, Lambo, Elazer, and Neeb) before facing Maru who was only 18-1 but he allegedly wasn't at his peak.
That's not the point. Serral had not won a single international tournament yet when he faced Maru at WESG, not to mention his 0-3 loss was crushing(yea, we can use that term for a sweep even if g1 and partially g3 were well fought) while Dark fared much better against Maru who had to resort to(legit, of course) cheeses to beat him 4-3; not exactly what a peak should look like, he was at 2017 Neeb level:crushing foreigners, not yet capable of beating korean in finals. Maru started to peak at that very tournament instead.
Or maybe it's because he faced Maru there while avoiding him at GSLvTW and Blizzcon, not because he wasn't at his "peak".
Your opinion entirely, shape fluctuates and players evolve and/or involve; now you are saying Serral at WESG 2017 was as strong as he was after April? His level of play says otherwise, so do his results(he actually started beating koreans in finals instead of losing in the ro4), it's a bold statement to affirm he reached his apex as early as March 2018.
Serral played Maru at GSL vs the World, just not in the main tournament; however, it's not like he actively avoid to face him in the main tournament...Maru just lost before getting to play Serral(the first of many subsequent times).
Serral's ZvZ and ZvP were at their apex at BlizzCon, we simply didn't get to see his ZvT; it appeared to have extremely improved after WESG considering he smashed Inno and beat Maru in the team competition at GSL vs the World.
We will never know who would have won with them being at their best, Maru's TvZ was his best matchup in 2018 but Serral consistently appeared godlike. What I am sure of, however, is that that hypothetical series would have been very different from the one they played at WESG.
Correct, it's my opinion entirely just as it's your opinion entirely that Serral was only at his peak at GSL vs the world and Blizzcon.
No way, this is not my opinion alone. Results speak clearly in my favor(Serral losing ro4 against top koreans magically becomes Serral beating top koreans in finals, dropping series turns into not losing any offline in eight months), what do you have your side other than your enlightened vision?
So what your saying is that in fact he's only at his peak when he's not losing and as soon as he loses it's proof that he isn't at his peak?
On April 08 2019 20:50 fronkschnonk wrote: It's really disappointing when players who have potential or are coming back often just seem to opt out of competition when it gets serious: Taeja seemingly did not show up vs MC and then vs alive in the LB. TREME, an old face from 2015 also donated def-wins to his opponents. Dandy didn't try either although his opponent impact could've been doable for him. DRG also let his chance of a kind of easy first opponent in Patience slip away.
I mean, yes, there always can happen stuff that hinders you and playing against the best of the best is probably quite intimidating but I see this so often that it is just unlikely that this is not some kind of nerves/anxiety/motivation-problem. It's so sad because I think those players are giving opportunites away and by deciding to rather not participate they're making it even more unlikely that they'll climb to the top, ever. Especially players like Taeja and Dandy who are on a team should have some kind of conscientiousness.
---- This is why I still think we need some kind of Code A in Korea in order to give realistic opportunities to lesser players.
And who is gonna pay for that =) ?
I wrote about this earlier. I think one could skip GSL vs the World. The saved prize money and event costs should be more than enough to support a small Code A.
Oh, don't doubt, I would love to ignore what you guys regularly post but if scrolling down my posts is hard, you have to imagine how frustrating it would be to have to literally skip half of the posts on this section of the forum.
I am saying Serral peaked last year after April, his most impressive performance being BlizzCon and GSL vs the World; his peak wasn't only not losing, nothing would have really changed if he dropped one random series in the groupstages at Anaheim(too bad he didn't even come close to),I am speaking of his godlike multitasking, his immaculate early game defense, his jawdropping lategame mastery, his extreme clutchness in decisive games and his capability of never letting go a the series when behind; Serral always had sparks of greatness but it was evident to everyone who has eyesight he actually improved throughout 2018.
I find extremely funny you apparently think Serral was playing at the same level for more than one year: we had a similar discussion about his current shape in 2019, which is worse than his best in 2018(and I started saying that before he lost a single series at IEM groupstages), and now you say he was already at his peak in March 2018, a statement not suffragated by facts or results.
On April 08 2019 23:36 Xain0n wrote: Which Maru? The one who lost to Meomaika and Leenock while very closely defeating Impact and Scarlett? Think again. The best Maru would crush this Serral, for sure, while Serral vs Maru when both were at their peaks would have really been a dream match(I'm convinced Serral would have taken this but the opposite is just as likely; that match at GSL vs The World was a nice peek, despite having almost nothing at stake).
Of course peak Serral wouldn't have lost to Maru because Serral fans define any time he loses as not being him at his peak form which therefore means it doesn't count. Serral was 18-0 in maps at WESG against WCS Circuit level competition (Has, Minato, Showtime, Bly, Lambo, Elazer, and Neeb) before facing Maru who was only 18-1 but he allegedly wasn't at his peak.
That's not the point. Serral had not won a single international tournament yet when he faced Maru at WESG, not to mention his 0-3 loss was crushing(yea, we can use that term for a sweep even if g1 and partially g3 were well fought) while Dark fared much better against Maru who had to resort to(legit, of course) cheeses to beat him 4-3; not exactly what a peak should look like, he was at 2017 Neeb level:crushing foreigners, not yet capable of beating korean in finals. Maru started to peak at that very tournament instead.
Or maybe it's because he faced Maru there while avoiding him at GSLvTW and Blizzcon, not because he wasn't at his "peak".
Your opinion entirely, shape fluctuates and players evolve and/or involve; now you are saying Serral at WESG 2017 was as strong as he was after April? His level of play says otherwise, so do his results(he actually started beating koreans in finals instead of losing in the ro4), it's a bold statement to affirm he reached his apex as early as March 2018.
Serral played Maru at GSL vs the World, just not in the main tournament; however, it's not like he actively avoid to face him in the main tournament...Maru just lost before getting to play Serral(the first of many subsequent times).
Serral's ZvZ and ZvP were at their apex at BlizzCon, we simply didn't get to see his ZvT; it appeared to have extremely improved after WESG considering he smashed Inno and beat Maru in the team competition at GSL vs the World.
We will never know who would have won with them being at their best, Maru's TvZ was his best matchup in 2018 but Serral consistently appeared godlike. What I am sure of, however, is that that hypothetical series would have been very different from the one they played at WESG.
Correct, it's my opinion entirely just as it's your opinion entirely that Serral was only at his peak at GSL vs the world and Blizzcon.
Am I the only one who really thinks about writing a plugin to ignore this dude? Not only he's a fanboy, but he writes wall of texts I don't want to read, but skipping such walls requires lot of scrolling. Serral is the toppest of the top and that's why he lost to soO, Innovation, Neeb, Raynor. And when he lost to Maru he wasn't in his peak, otherwise he dominated the whole 2018, he didn't dominate the GSL but let's ignore that because who cares about Code S. WCS is the bestest everest competition and he won it 4 times in a row!!!#!!
Edit> Just thinking about it - we have again the Mvp situation. BL infestor is fiiiiiiiiiiiiiine, no worries, Terrans are fine, Mvp can win games! Play like Mvp!!! We have 2 "weekend" tournaments with top players without meaningful Terran representation but everything is fine. We don't even try to look for the cause(it's not BL infestor, or is it? )
I suspected you had bad reading skills, now you just candidly admit you don't even read my posts; that's fine by itself, but how would you actually think you can answer to them properly without reading them first? Ignore me for good if you have to spout such ridicolous senselessness.
Am I a fanboy just because I do not agree with you? Unlike you, I tend to try to bring facts and reasoning into a discussion. I never said WCS is the best tournament ever, just that winning it four times straight is not the easy task you are convinced it is; the GSL argument is frankly idiotic, Serral simply didn't play in Korea in 2018(except for GSL vs the World, let me remind you it was the first GSL tournament a foreigner ever won).
Serral is not the toppest of the tops lately, it's crystal clear he's not notably ahead of the pack of the best players; I have been saying his shape had decayed for more than a month now in the posts you don't read(and it shows).
Well, here comes the moment where I support Xain0n's view - at least to some extend. If we let speak the pure match statistics, Serral's peak began with GSL vs the World and lasted until Homestory Cup XVIII. Before GSL vs the World he lost matches vs top Koreans at IEM and WESG and "only" was able to dominate WCS. He even dropped maps vs Kelazhur and TLO in April at Nationwars and lost to soO twice in semifinals.
Still I think Serral's ZvT is weak in comparison to his other matchups.
At all the imba whining: The patch still isn't that old. Players tend to adjust. If terran still looks weak in may/june we can talk about it again.
Okay guys Serral is clearly sick since January and he will continue being sick, unlucky, not in top form and still better player although losing and God knows what else. That is until he wins another tournament Let's move on.
So TY and Inno bombing out huh? 2 terrans in super tournament. Now that is just great...
On April 09 2019 03:44 MarianoSC2 wrote: Okay guys Serral is clearly sick since January and he will continue being sick, unlucky, not in top form and still better player although losing and God knows what else. That is until he wins another tournament Let's move on.
So TY and Inno bombing out huh? 2 terrans in super tournament. Now that is just great...
Just look at the games, the situation doesn't change even if Serral wins one tournament unless he starts playing godlike like he used to; he objectively was sick at WESG but he wasn't at IEM, that's not really an excuse. Nobody spoke of luck and cannot say Serral is the best at the moment.
Bunny dropped out as well, that 0-3 loss to Dark was evidently too brutal.
On April 09 2019 03:43 fronkschnonk wrote: At all the imba whining: The patch still isn't that old. Players tend to adjust. If terran still looks weak in may/june we can talk about it again.
The patch is a meme. Designed for the sole purpose of getting the winrates up for Terran, the only thing it accomplishes is a marginally bigger window to hit the same 2 base all-ins people were already sick of a year ago. TvP/PvT is a completely terrible match-up to watch and play. And it has been for over a year. At this point something should be done sooner rather than later, and preferably something that doesn't fuck Protoss over further against Zerg. To put it bluntly, I enjoyed watching adept/phoenix or blink era games more than I enjoy TvP since 2018.
In terms of "simply" fixing winrates a map pool change is always the first thing I'd advocate for trying. Maps have a huge impact and obviously Terran does worse on a map pool like the most recent ones with astronomically large maps like Para Site or Year Zero.
On April 08 2019 20:50 fronkschnonk wrote: It's really disappointing when players who have potential or are coming back often just seem to opt out of competition when it gets serious: Taeja seemingly did not show up vs MC and then vs alive in the LB. TREME, an old face from 2015 also donated def-wins to his opponents. Dandy didn't try either although his opponent impact could've been doable for him. DRG also let his chance of a kind of easy first opponent in Patience slip away.
I mean, yes, there always can happen stuff that hinders you and playing against the best of the best is probably quite intimidating but I see this so often that it is just unlikely that this is not some kind of nerves/anxiety/motivation-problem. It's so sad because I think those players are giving opportunites away and by deciding to rather not participate they're making it even more unlikely that they'll climb to the top, ever. Especially players like Taeja and Dandy who are on a team should have some kind of conscientiousness.
---- This is why I still think we need some kind of Code A in Korea in order to give realistic opportunities to lesser players.
And who is gonna pay for that =) ?
I wrote about this earlier. I think one could skip GSL vs the World. The saved prize money and event costs should be more than enough to support a small Code A.
People actually what GSL vs the world tho, it make some money and publicity if you want to cut something your better with a Super Tournament who have less viewership, let's be honest almost no one would wake up at 4 am to watch Dandy vs Keen. Olimoleague rarelly has more then 2000-2500 people all stream combine and it's the best in the words.
On April 08 2019 23:36 Xain0n wrote: Which Maru? The one who lost to Meomaika and Leenock while very closely defeating Impact and Scarlett? Think again. The best Maru would crush this Serral, for sure, while Serral vs Maru when both were at their peaks would have really been a dream match(I'm convinced Serral would have taken this but the opposite is just as likely; that match at GSL vs The World was a nice peek, despite having almost nothing at stake).
Of course peak Serral wouldn't have lost to Maru because Serral fans define any time he loses as not being him at his peak form which therefore means it doesn't count. Serral was 18-0 in maps at WESG against WCS Circuit level competition (Has, Minato, Showtime, Bly, Lambo, Elazer, and Neeb) before facing Maru who was only 18-1 but he allegedly wasn't at his peak.
That's not the point. Serral had not won a single international tournament yet when he faced Maru at WESG, not to mention his 0-3 loss was crushing(yea, we can use that term for a sweep even if g1 and partially g3 were well fought) while Dark fared much better against Maru who had to resort to(legit, of course) cheeses to beat him 4-3; not exactly what a peak should look like, he was at 2017 Neeb level:crushing foreigners, not yet capable of beating korean in finals. Maru started to peak at that very tournament instead.
Or maybe it's because he faced Maru there while avoiding him at GSLvTW and Blizzcon, not because he wasn't at his "peak".
Your opinion entirely, shape fluctuates and players evolve and/or involve; now you are saying Serral at WESG 2017 was as strong as he was after April? His level of play says otherwise, so do his results(he actually started beating koreans in finals instead of losing in the ro4), it's a bold statement to affirm he reached his apex as early as March 2018.
Serral played Maru at GSL vs the World, just not in the main tournament; however, it's not like he actively avoid to face him in the main tournament...Maru just lost before getting to play Serral(the first of many subsequent times).
Serral's ZvZ and ZvP were at their apex at BlizzCon, we simply didn't get to see his ZvT; it appeared to have extremely improved after WESG considering he smashed Inno and beat Maru in the team competition at GSL vs the World.
We will never know who would have won with them being at their best, Maru's TvZ was his best matchup in 2018 but Serral consistently appeared godlike. What I am sure of, however, is that that hypothetical series would have been very different from the one they played at WESG.
Correct, it's my opinion entirely just as it's your opinion entirely that Serral was only at his peak at GSL vs the world and Blizzcon.
No way, this is not my opinion alone. Results speak clearly in my favor(Serral losing ro4 against top koreans magically becomes Serral beating top koreans in finals, dropping series turns into not losing any offline in eight months), what do you have your side other than your enlightened vision?
So what your saying is that in fact he's only at his peak when he's not losing and as soon as he loses it's proof that he isn't at his peak?
@Deacon.frost: Yeah I feel with you...
Sounds like some Maru fans claiming he only loses at weekenders cause he doesn't care. People are spastic.
On April 08 2019 20:50 fronkschnonk wrote: It's really disappointing when players who have potential or are coming back often just seem to opt out of competition when it gets serious: Taeja seemingly did not show up vs MC and then vs alive in the LB. TREME, an old face from 2015 also donated def-wins to his opponents. Dandy didn't try either although his opponent impact could've been doable for him. DRG also let his chance of a kind of easy first opponent in Patience slip away.
I mean, yes, there always can happen stuff that hinders you and playing against the best of the best is probably quite intimidating but I see this so often that it is just unlikely that this is not some kind of nerves/anxiety/motivation-problem. It's so sad because I think those players are giving opportunites away and by deciding to rather not participate they're making it even more unlikely that they'll climb to the top, ever. Especially players like Taeja and Dandy who are on a team should have some kind of conscientiousness.
---- This is why I still think we need some kind of Code A in Korea in order to give realistic opportunities to lesser players.
And who is gonna pay for that =) ?
I wrote about this earlier. I think one could skip GSL vs the World. The saved prize money and event costs should be more than enough to support a small Code A.
People actually what GSL vs the world tho, it make some money and publicity if you want to cut something your better with a Super Tournament who have less viewership, let's be honest almost no one would wake up at 4 am to watch Dandy vs Keen. Olimoleague rarelly has more then 2000-2500 people all stream combine and it's the best in the words.
Neither is Olimoleague offline nor is it presented by famous casters. Also there wouldn't be only Keen and Dandy in it but also every now and then some big names. But I'm open to other ideas about how to support new blood in the korean scene. I just see: there exists new blood but it has almost no chance to rise up because of the top heavy competition. Region lock proved that indeed a lack of opportunities was a major reason for the foreign scene to shrink. The same does apply for the korean scene.
Honest question: Why do you guys think the "new blood" Koreans don't qualify for ST or GSL?
It can't be the infamous "teamhouse eviroment" because those don't exist anymire besides JAGW I doubt it's lack of practice, with ladder as an option and stuff like Olimoleague on a regular basis
On April 08 2019 23:36 Xain0n wrote: Which Maru? The one who lost to Meomaika and Leenock while very closely defeating Impact and Scarlett? Think again. The best Maru would crush this Serral, for sure, while Serral vs Maru when both were at their peaks would have really been a dream match(I'm convinced Serral would have taken this but the opposite is just as likely; that match at GSL vs The World was a nice peek, despite having almost nothing at stake).
Of course peak Serral wouldn't have lost to Maru because Serral fans define any time he loses as not being him at his peak form which therefore means it doesn't count. Serral was 18-0 in maps at WESG against WCS Circuit level competition (Has, Minato, Showtime, Bly, Lambo, Elazer, and Neeb) before facing Maru who was only 18-1 but he allegedly wasn't at his peak.
That's not the point. Serral had not won a single international tournament yet when he faced Maru at WESG, not to mention his 0-3 loss was crushing(yea, we can use that term for a sweep even if g1 and partially g3 were well fought) while Dark fared much better against Maru who had to resort to(legit, of course) cheeses to beat him 4-3; not exactly what a peak should look like, he was at 2017 Neeb level:crushing foreigners, not yet capable of beating korean in finals. Maru started to peak at that very tournament instead.
Or maybe it's because he faced Maru there while avoiding him at GSLvTW and Blizzcon, not because he wasn't at his "peak".
Your opinion entirely, shape fluctuates and players evolve and/or involve; now you are saying Serral at WESG 2017 was as strong as he was after April? His level of play says otherwise, so do his results(he actually started beating koreans in finals instead of losing in the ro4), it's a bold statement to affirm he reached his apex as early as March 2018.
Serral played Maru at GSL vs the World, just not in the main tournament; however, it's not like he actively avoid to face him in the main tournament...Maru just lost before getting to play Serral(the first of many subsequent times).
Serral's ZvZ and ZvP were at their apex at BlizzCon, we simply didn't get to see his ZvT; it appeared to have extremely improved after WESG considering he smashed Inno and beat Maru in the team competition at GSL vs the World.
We will never know who would have won with them being at their best, Maru's TvZ was his best matchup in 2018 but Serral consistently appeared godlike. What I am sure of, however, is that that hypothetical series would have been very different from the one they played at WESG.
Correct, it's my opinion entirely just as it's your opinion entirely that Serral was only at his peak at GSL vs the world and Blizzcon.
No way, this is not my opinion alone. Results speak clearly in my favor(Serral losing ro4 against top koreans magically becomes Serral beating top koreans in finals, dropping series turns into not losing any offline in eight months), what do you have your side other than your enlightened vision?
So what your saying is that in fact he's only at his peak when he's not losing and as soon as he loses it's proof that he isn't at his peak?
@Deacon.frost: Yeah I feel with you...
Sounds like some Maru fans claiming he only loses at weekenders cause he doesn't care. People are spastic.
How can you explain a player playing godlike in Code S while losing and appearing not even trying in weekenders? There can be multiple explanation, this is just how it looks, multiple people stated multiple times we don't know for sure.
What we know for sure is that Serral is avoiding Code S whcih is the only tournament(except WESG ) where Terrans can do better.
On April 09 2019 17:31 Harris1st wrote: Honest question: Why do you guys think the "new blood" Koreans don't qualify for ST or GSL?
It can't be the infamous "teamhouse eviroment" because those don't exist anymire besides JAGW I doubt it's lack of practice, with ladder as an option and stuff like Olimoleague on a regular basis
I think it's a mix of lack of opportunities (you'll most likely have to beat a GSL champion in order to qualify for Code S) and the lack of longterm-secure structures (which was provided by the teamhouses). Newcomers have no place to shine and get serious tournament practice with broadcasted matches and get at least some prize money. Having no teams also means there is nobody who pays you for just practicing in hope that some day you'll break through.
On April 08 2019 20:50 fronkschnonk wrote: It's really disappointing when players who have potential or are coming back often just seem to opt out of competition when it gets serious: Taeja seemingly did not show up vs MC and then vs alive in the LB. TREME, an old face from 2015 also donated def-wins to his opponents. Dandy didn't try either although his opponent impact could've been doable for him. DRG also let his chance of a kind of easy first opponent in Patience slip away.
I mean, yes, there always can happen stuff that hinders you and playing against the best of the best is probably quite intimidating but I see this so often that it is just unlikely that this is not some kind of nerves/anxiety/motivation-problem. It's so sad because I think those players are giving opportunites away and by deciding to rather not participate they're making it even more unlikely that they'll climb to the top, ever. Especially players like Taeja and Dandy who are on a team should have some kind of conscientiousness.
---- This is why I still think we need some kind of Code A in Korea in order to give realistic opportunities to lesser players.
And who is gonna pay for that =) ?
I wrote about this earlier. I think one could skip GSL vs the World. The saved prize money and event costs should be more than enough to support a small Code A.
People actually what GSL vs the world tho, it make some money and publicity if you want to cut something your better with a Super Tournament who have less viewership, let's be honest almost no one would wake up at 4 am to watch Dandy vs Keen. Olimoleague rarelly has more then 2000-2500 people all stream combine and it's the best in the words.
Neither is Olimoleague offline nor is it presented by famous casters. Also there wouldn't be only Keen and Dandy in it but also every now and then some big names. But I'm open to other ideas about how to support new blood in the korean scene. I just see: there exists new blood but it has almost no chance to rise up because of the top heavy competition. Region lock proved that indeed a lack of opportunities was a major reason for the foreign scene to shrink. The same does apply for the korean scene.
I'm not saying not to do it, but if you have to sacrify something better a ST then GSLvsTW, code A would be nice but it's clearly an investment not a profitable venture at this time or at least not as profitable as an elite tournament. I would like to see it, but honestly I can't see Blizz putting that much money while cutting other tournament prize pools and production for example they just stop financing Ladder Heroes who was dedicated to grow the NA and EU up and comer and it cost nothing compare to an offline code A. I really would like to have code A, but I just don't think it's realistic atm, maybe amateur online cup is a better way to go.
On April 09 2019 17:31 Harris1st wrote: Honest question: Why do you guys think the "new blood" Koreans don't qualify for ST or GSL?
It can't be the infamous "teamhouse eviroment" because those don't exist anymire besides JAGW I doubt it's lack of practice, with ladder as an option and stuff like Olimoleague on a regular basis
I think it's a mix of lack of opportunities (you'll most likely have to beat a GSL champion in order to qualify for Code S) and the lack of longterm-secure structures (which was provided by the teamhouses). Newcomers have no place to shine and get serious tournament practice with broadcasted matches and get at least some prize money. Having no teams also means there is nobody who pays you for just practicing in hope that some day you'll break through.
But the situation is the same around the globe. Sure EU/ NA competition is a bit weaker than GSL. Everything else is the same. And it seems to work, just not in Korea. You don't need to get paid when you are a 14-16 yr old kid TBH. You can easily play 6+ hours a day while attending school (at least I did back in the day ^^' ) The "breakthrough" is the same for everyone, be it basketball, tennis or whatever. It works just for 0,01 %. Deal with it. Live goes on.
I mean, don't get me wrong. Code A would be awesome. Even if it is online (for the most part), with experienced casters and decent production value. And it wouldn't be that expensive
On April 08 2019 20:48 swarminfestor wrote: What's wrong with Korean Terran players? Only 2 of them in the ro 16. Even Special also cannot advances. Where are all new bloods?
Maru exists so every other terran player has to suffer.
I shouldn't be the one to tell you Inno won WESG(only Terran can win that tournament, apparently. Will they move the next to the second half of 2020 so that Byun could play it?); if you are right about Terran not being as strong as the other races, it's both Code S format(TY could have easily S3 2018) and Maru being incapable of releasing his full potential in weekenders that are condemning the race. TvZ, in fact, seems fair(if not Terran favored late game) while TvP is a polarized and boring matchup whose win ratios are reasonable at the end of the day.
I still think IEM groupstages were a weird anomaly(the opponents were known in advance, there was time to prepare for each of them), while the last korean qualifiers including this one are showing a worrying Protoss overabundance at the expense of Terran; I mean, I am glad the Bigggg Boy is back but Patience and Hurricane instead of TY and Bunny really hurts.
Judging by the lineup I'd say either Rogue or Stats/Classic/Zest/sOs/herO is gonna win this; if Maru doesn't take home his fourth Code S, I'd be actually pleasantly surprised to see him add a Super Tournament to his record of achievements.
How about we will use WCS as the Terran suffering tournament? We obviously can't have Terrans there...
WESG these top players there. Dark(Z), Serral(Z), Innovation(T) and Maru(T). Serral removed Dark from the equation and from then onwards we had pretty high chances of T winning the whole thing, because Scarlett isn't good enough(which wasn't as much true, but still...) and Serral has weak ZvT against good Koreans.
Using WESG is as stupid as it can get.
Edit> Or how about we use IEM? Except Code S Terrans are not playing especially good in weekenders. And ST just proves the IEM state. Terrans can prepare and show good builds, Terrans can overcome worse players, otherwise it seems they're incapable of qualifying.
Edit 2> Oh, shouldn't just scim through. So IEM was annomaly. And GSL ST is another anomaly? How many more anomalies?
Unfortunately, your unpleasant approach is not one anomaly; treating likely(?) happenings as they were obvious and granted truly is stupid, definitely not remembering a non Maru Terran won 150k in a Premier tournament few weeks ago.
The idea of Serral having weak ZvT against good koreans is a myth you guys gave birth to; he actually lost quite closely against Inno alone and then got pwnd by Heromarine before totally dismantling him yesterday. You come up with Maru 3-0ing Serral at WESG 2017 but he wasn't yet the top tier player he became afterwards:Serral's ZvT looked very sharp at GSL vs the World;,while ZvT is Serral's weakest matchup overall he wasn't especially weak at the matchup in 2019, he just isn't on god level tier at the moment having lost three series in ZvT, three in ZvZ and one in ZvP already this year.
I'm not sure if you can actually read the entirety of my posts before rushing to answer me with basically memes, but I outright said IEM seems like one anomaly since, despite it's a weekender, Terran did have problems getting through the groups the had weeks to prepare for(the "Terran is weak at the weekenders" theory would have implied eliminations in the playoffs); moreover, I said the qualifiers for both Code S(the main phase told us a different truth, but that's coherent with the idea Terran get better if they have time to prepare) and Super Tournament are indeed showing a disproportionate amount of Protoss qualifying over Terran.
Serral got totally smashed by Inno twice in a row. Then lost to a foreign terran in heromarine. His ZvT is weak, Maru would humiliate him yet again if they meet sometime this year.
Moreover, Serral is a patchzerg. Even TL agrees, there was an article about it last week.
When people don't know what is april's fool aka april the first. U made my day haha
PvT winrate on the current ladder map pool (which will probably go into the Super Tournament unchanged) as per Liquipedia:
Cyber Forest - 104-58, 64.4% Automaton - 140-100, 58.3% Year Zero - 50-38, 56.8% Port Aleksander - 179-150, 54.4% Yeonsu - 229-192, 54.4% Kairos Junction - 211-195, 52.0% King's Cove - 67-79, 46.9% New Repugnancy - 45-53, 45.9%
Added Yeonsu as reference for a map that was considered genuinely broken (not just in 1 match-up either). If we're really gonna advocate for changes, this should be the first thing we look into as a short term measure.
On April 09 2019 23:32 Elentos wrote: PvT winrate on the current ladder map pool (which will probably go into the Super Tournament unchanged) as per Liquipedia:
Cyber Forest - 104-58, 64.4% Automaton - 140-100, 58.3% Year Zero - 50-38, 56.8% Port Aleksander - 179-150, 54.4% Yeonsu - 229-192, 54.4% Kairos Junction - 211-195, 52.0% King's Cove - 67-79, 46.9% New Repugnancy - 45-53, 45.9%
Added Yeonsu as reference for a map that was considered genuinely broken (not just in 1 match-up either). If we're really gonna advocate for changes, this should be the first thing we look into as a short term measure.
It's definitely reasonable. The damage is done already for this tournament, tho, I feel like PvZ winrates are going to be definitely more relevant here.
On April 08 2019 20:50 fronkschnonk wrote: It's really disappointing when players who have potential or are coming back often just seem to opt out of competition when it gets serious: Taeja seemingly did not show up vs MC and then vs alive in the LB. TREME, an old face from 2015 also donated def-wins to his opponents. Dandy didn't try either although his opponent impact could've been doable for him. DRG also let his chance of a kind of easy first opponent in Patience slip away.
I mean, yes, there always can happen stuff that hinders you and playing against the best of the best is probably quite intimidating but I see this so often that it is just unlikely that this is not some kind of nerves/anxiety/motivation-problem. It's so sad because I think those players are giving opportunites away and by deciding to rather not participate they're making it even more unlikely that they'll climb to the top, ever. Especially players like Taeja and Dandy who are on a team should have some kind of conscientiousness.
---- This is why I still think we need some kind of Code A in Korea in order to give realistic opportunities to lesser players.
And who is gonna pay for that =) ?
I wrote about this earlier. I think one could skip GSL vs the World. The saved prize money and event costs should be more than enough to support a small Code A.
People actually what GSL vs the world tho, it make some money and publicity if you want to cut something your better with a Super Tournament who have less viewership, let's be honest almost no one would wake up at 4 am to watch Dandy vs Keen. Olimoleague rarelly has more then 2000-2500 people all stream combine and it's the best in the words.
Neither is Olimoleague offline nor is it presented by famous casters. Also there wouldn't be only Keen and Dandy in it but also every now and then some big names. But I'm open to other ideas about how to support new blood in the korean scene. I just see: there exists new blood but it has almost no chance to rise up because of the top heavy competition. Region lock proved that indeed a lack of opportunities was a major reason for the foreign scene to shrink. The same does apply for the korean scene.
I'm not saying not to do it, but if you have to sacrify something better a ST then GSLvsTW, code A would be nice but it's clearly an investment not a profitable venture at this time or at least not as profitable as an elite tournament. I would like to see it, but honestly I can't see Blizz putting that much money while cutting other tournament prize pools and production for example they just stop financing Ladder Heroes who was dedicated to grow the NA and EU up and comer and it cost nothing compare to an offline code A. I really would like to have code A, but I just don't think it's realistic atm, maybe amateur online cup is a better way to go.
I see your point. But I also think that korean SC2 needs some longterm-investment in order to exist in the long run. This is only possible by supporting new talents. But you're right that something less costly could be at least something. That's why I said some kind of Code A.
On April 09 2019 17:31 Harris1st wrote: Honest question: Why do you guys think the "new blood" Koreans don't qualify for ST or GSL?
It can't be the infamous "teamhouse eviroment" because those don't exist anymire besides JAGW I doubt it's lack of practice, with ladder as an option and stuff like Olimoleague on a regular basis
I think it's a mix of lack of opportunities (you'll most likely have to beat a GSL champion in order to qualify for Code S) and the lack of longterm-secure structures (which was provided by the teamhouses). Newcomers have no place to shine and get serious tournament practice with broadcasted matches and get at least some prize money. Having no teams also means there is nobody who pays you for just practicing in hope that some day you'll break through.
But the situation is the same around the globe. Sure EU/ NA competition is a bit weaker than GSL. Everything else is the same. And it seems to work, just not in Korea. You don't need to get paid when you are a 14-16 yr old kid TBH. You can easily play 6+ hours a day while attending school (at least I did back in the day ^^' ) The "breakthrough" is the same for everyone, be it basketball, tennis or whatever. It works just for 0,01 %. Deal with it. Live goes on.
I mean, don't get me wrong. Code A would be awesome. Even if it is online (for the most part), with experienced casters and decent production value. And it wouldn't be that expensive
Nah, the situation isn't the same around the globe. Korea is incredibly stacked with veteran players who are easily capable of dismantling most newcomers in the first rounds of any qualifier or at Olimoleague. In WCS players have the possibility to make a name for themselves in their region. So the problem of the korean scene is not that it doesn't support enough players but it provides no opportunities for new talent to rise to the top and thus will crumble some day in quality when more and more veterans will retire.
But if you can't win vs someone who just came back from a 2 year military service, maybe becoming a Starcraft pro isn't for you. I think the bigger problem is that most young, talented gamers don't wanna try Starcraft at all. It is a hard game after all. LoL, Dota, Fortnite, next big thing are just more attractive games right now
On April 10 2019 17:41 Harris1st wrote: But if you can't win vs someone who just came back from a 2 year military service, maybe becoming a Starcraft pro isn't for you. I think the bigger problem is that most young, talented gamers don't wanna try Starcraft at all. It is a hard game after all. LoL, Dota, Fortnite, next big thing are just more attractive games right now
The fact that region lock kind of revitalized the foreign scene disproves your point. I don't see why giving more opportunities to new talents shouldn't work in South Korea, too.
On April 10 2019 17:41 Harris1st wrote: But if you can't win vs someone who just came back from a 2 year military service, maybe becoming a Starcraft pro isn't for you. I think the bigger problem is that most young, talented gamers don't wanna try Starcraft at all. It is a hard game after all. LoL, Dota, Fortnite, next big thing are just more attractive games right now
The fact that region lock kind of revitalized the foreign scene disproves your point. I don't see why giving more opportunities to new talents shouldn't work in South Korea, too.
Mostly because splitting Korea into 2 regions so more newbies have a chance is not a good idea. Korea still has a deep-ish player pool and it doesn't help foreigners are allowed and make it even more deep.
On April 10 2019 17:41 Harris1st wrote: But if you can't win vs someone who just came back from a 2 year military service, maybe becoming a Starcraft pro isn't for you. I think the bigger problem is that most young, talented gamers don't wanna try Starcraft at all. It is a hard game after all. LoL, Dota, Fortnite, next big thing are just more attractive games right now
The fact that region lock kind of revitalized the foreign scene disproves your point. I don't see why giving more opportunities to new talents shouldn't work in South Korea, too.
Would you care to elaborate? I have no idea at all at what you are getting at
On April 10 2019 17:41 Harris1st wrote: But if you can't win vs someone who just came back from a 2 year military service, maybe becoming a Starcraft pro isn't for you. I think the bigger problem is that most young, talented gamers don't wanna try Starcraft at all. It is a hard game after all. LoL, Dota, Fortnite, next big thing are just more attractive games right now
The fact that region lock kind of revitalized the foreign scene disproves your point. I don't see why giving more opportunities to new talents shouldn't work in South Korea, too.
Would you care to elaborate? I have no idea at all at what you are getting at
Foreigners are self-explanatory. I skip them
You have 2 main regions of WCS - NA, Eu. This means that you don't compete against all the top players at the same time while at the end on the main event you compete against them. Then you have more fragmented situation(Eu qualifier, NA qualifier, China/Hong Kong qualifier etc.). At the same time all the players are tied to their region and to the main event 64 players(I believe that was the group stage #1 amount) are competing.
Basically by fragmenting the scene and tying the player to their respected region you lower the number of top players you compete against. The main events are for all the regions, but the regions send their representatives.
And you cannot do this in Korea that easily, as most of the pro players live in Seoul and closely around. (also insert a random joke about the last geographical splitting of Korea) Remember, you need to tie the players to their region otherwise they can try again and again. Edit> IEM qualifiers are a great example. Oh, I didn't qualify via Korean bracket? Let me try American!
Splitting itself isn't the only thing, you need more payed placements. top32 Koreans are on average better than top32 foreigners. This means it's easier to get into top32 foreigners than Koreans. Up until top4 it's way harder to place in Korea than in WCS. Then the difference is way smaller, but we're talking about newbies.
Newbie needs to feel a chance to place. If you're good enough you have a chance to place in WCS because the competition is fragmented and on average lower. The competition in Korea is concentrated and on average higher(in skill).
Edit2> also while there are no team houses per se, the players know each other and have social connection. So they train with each other even without the teamhouses(now maybe even more as they're not limited by teamhouses ). If you're a newbie in Korea can you access the top players and train with them? I don't know how open to new players they are, this is something else to consider, the "old guard" not accepting new players while keeping the skill among themselves. It's not just about APM, but game planning, build creation, race discussion. But I have no idea how this works in Korea(or in foreigner lands )
On April 10 2019 17:41 Harris1st wrote: But if you can't win vs someone who just came back from a 2 year military service, maybe becoming a Starcraft pro isn't for you. I think the bigger problem is that most young, talented gamers don't wanna try Starcraft at all. It is a hard game after all. LoL, Dota, Fortnite, next big thing are just more attractive games right now
The fact that region lock kind of revitalized the foreign scene disproves your point. I don't see why giving more opportunities to new talents shouldn't work in South Korea, too.
Would you care to elaborate? I have no idea at all at what you are getting at
Well, the foreign scene wasn't as vital a few years ago. With Koreans playing in all big tournaments new foreign talents had a hard time to achieve meaningful results and prizemoney to justify that carreer path in the long run. When WCS got region locked suddenly foreigners had a real chance to get to high placements and earn some money of it. Before region lock newbes often didn't even qualify for events, now with region lock new talents can climb higher step by step. What happened? The region lock which locked Koreans out from most WCS-Competition created more opportunities for "local heroes" to become better players and eventually rise to the top and make a living of it.
I think it should be possible to do the same for the korean scene which is stacked too much in basically one hard competition (GSL). An "amateur" or B-Tier league (like Code A) would create such opportunities. Another possibility could be to finance a talent-team.
So we would need a tournament on a somewhat regular basis which would lock out GSL (Ro32 or Ro16 players at least) and non-koreans. That doesn't seem an impossible task for community figures and streamers IMO. You don't really need Blizz for that. Some cooperation of Crank/Korean Streamer and Rifkin/Wardi/Rotti should do. Start out with an online only tournament (monthly?) and small prize pool. If it goes well, yeah. If not, not much lost
Edit: Did not read the complete "new blood" thread. Probably my idea or a variation of it is in there already ^^'
EPT
2002 SKY OSL
Let's move on.
