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On February 06 2019 20:49 Xain0n wrote:
I didn't know TRUE was hiding under Serral's mask, but I welcome him as our new Sc2 Overlord without any doubt; try to think TaeJa had the same accomplishment of Serral in 2018 then tell me he wouldn't have won player of the year.
I'm surprised TaeJa didn't win player of the year after his good HSC performance so he's probably not the best example.
Also I don't think WCS wins are meaningless in general but just that they're meaningless when comparing Serral to Maru. Would have Maru won those tournaments if he was in Serral's place? 100% yes considering how he trashes foreigners at WESG so I don't understand how you can count them as an accomplishment for Serral that makes him somehow surpass Maru's achievements.
@dysenterimd: So you want to completely leave GSL out of the equation because Serral didn't compete in them? Damn, just when I thought the logic behind calling Serral player of the year couldn't become more flawed.
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I appreciated the TaeJa joke! Maybe if he beat Serral xD
I don't get why you would exclude WCS while retaining Code S; either you weight all the results throughout the year or only the tournaments where Maru and Serral were both present.
Maru could have definitely won all the WCS if he replaced Serral, even if he definitely had not reached his best level yet when Leipzeig was played: he lost 2-3 to TIME in WESG qualifiers less than two weeks before the event and got soundly defeated by herO 2-0 in his Code S a couple of days after.
This brings us to the question I previously asked: don't you think Serral would have won Code S if he was in Maru's place?
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On February 06 2019 20:49 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 19:09 deacon.frost wrote:On February 05 2019 02:20 Xain0n wrote:On February 04 2019 17:17 deacon.frost wrote:On February 02 2019 14:23 Solar424 wrote:
Remember when winning Blizzcon made you the best player in the world? I guess that changed when a non-Korean won it. so sOs was twice the best player of the year? What kind of nonsense is this, do you remember anything before Serral won it? On February 03 2019 02:39 Xain0n wrote:
Serral "failed" by placing 3rd/4th in Katowice and 3rd in WESG? Maru didn't even reach semifinals in both Super Tournaments and at BlizzCon, that's a fail for the supposed #1 in the world.
There were four international tournaments(five if we count Pyeonchang) and Serral did better than Maru at them by winning two to one including the most prestigious of them. BlizzCon doesn't make you the most accomplished player of a certain year but it does when it's the ice on a cake comprised of other six premier tournaments.
After Serral's ascension the assumption korean tournaments authomatically involve all the best players in the world was rendered invalid; Code S, despite being open to everyone in 2018, still required to spend a considerable amount of time in Korea to play in it making it(unsurprisingly) way more of a regional Korean tournament than an international one: Serral was not required to play in it, you know, nor he was someway invited.
I want to add that Maru vs Serral's head to head didn't happen while they both were at their top; ZvT is Serral's worst matchup while Maru's TvZ arguably was his best mu in 2018. Even IF Maru beat Serral, he got taken down very often by Protoss during the whole season displaying a glaring weakness Serral didn't have.
However, I don't want to diminish Maru's accomplishment in 2018; it was probably the third best year anyone has ever had in Sc2(I prefer Mvp's 2011) and he made history with his three consecutive Code S but Serral's 2018 was just the best we have ever witnessed.
Yeah, how can Serral show weakness when his weakest MU doesn't offer anyone good in WCS scene except Special(who needs to be in very good form) and he managed to avoid the best Korean Terrans the whole 2018? Gee, I wonder. While Maru had to play all the best Protosses in the world. At least don't use such ridiculous arguments, c'mon. Ridicolous, you say. So, four of the five tournament losses Maru suffered were inflicted by three top Protoss players; however, those are not in contention for the best player of the year, are they? Relatively to 2018, we could regard them as inferior to Maru so I'd say TvP was his weakness in 2018. On the other hand, who are the Korean Terran Serral managed to avoid after he ascended? TY, who lost a map to Lambo before being eliminated by Rogue at BlizzCon? Not really. Maru, on the other hand , could have beaten Serral if he managed to reach the finals(which he didn't) even if I personally doubt he would have been capable of, at BlizzCon; moreover, Maru is in the same tier as Serral in contention for the best player in 2018, TvZ was his best matchup during the year and ZvT is Serral's weakest. That's not really the same as Maru's TvP losses, don't you think? Speaking of Rodya, he is so much better at gauging BW feats since Korea is the single meaningful region and comparing achievements is incredibly easier; no one can say Best is better than Rain looking at what they respectively won. In sc2 you guys are instead under the impression foreigner scene is marginally better than it was in 2014 and that Code S is still embarassingly ahead WCS; GSL is indeed harder and Serral is in a league of his own, but Neeb getting to ro4 should ring a bell . If Serral and Maru were switched, you'd have given give WCS titles to Maru for granted but how can you then doubt Serral would have won Code S at least twice (Season 2 and 3)? Maybe if Serral stops avoiding Code S for few seasons we can know better, but currently his bracket luck in 2018 meant he never plyayed TY nor Maru in an offline BO3 or better. The only BO3 against Maru he lost. I believe he wouldn't get any GSL title in 2018. On February 06 2019 18:29 Harris1st wrote:
Ahh how I love this discussion. It repeats itself over multiple threads with multiple people involved.
We will just have to wait and see what 2019 brings us, starting with IEM. Can't wait
- Will Serral cement his status as the (first) SC2 bonjwa?
- Will Maru topple the reigning Blizzcon champ?
- Will WCS Circuit players step up and get some Top 8 finishes
or will the top 8 consist of 7 Koreans + Serral again?
The biggest rivalry award is so spot on, at least there is no discussion XD When 3 consecutive Code S titles are not enough for banjo status while 4 lesser tournaments are. Damn. You delude yourself if you think the strongest player in the world(Serral) wouldn't have won Code S 2 and 3 if he were to replace Maru; I also think he'd have won at least GSL 3 if he were to play against Maru and that Serral's form at BlizzCon was out of everyone's reach, including Maru. Bonjwa is about dominance and Maru lost way too many tournaments! Serral has Bonjwa level dominance with his winning streak but he needs to win a wider array of international tournaments; If he wins IEM and/or WESG, he would deserve to be crowned as such.
Serral in blizzcon form? Sure. He showed one of the highest peaks of skill ever in starcraft. But Serral in the form he was at WCS Montreal, or even Valencia, would not have won Code S. Needing players like Scarlett, Lambo, Reynor, or Has to throw is not Code S champion form.
Stepping up and being in incredible form for two weekends in a whole year does not mean you can maintain that and win a Code S. Serral coasted through the WCS events the same way Maru coasted through GSL ro32/16s (which probably has a similar level of players). I think Maru stepping up and became unbeatable for GSL playoffs is quite similar to the way Serral looked beatable at the wcs stops then went god-mode for GSLvsTW and blizzcon.
You say Maru lost too many tournaments but he still won as many as top level events as Serral even entered. Winning two weekenders just isn't as good as three Code S. Rogue won four weekenders in a row and no one except Artosis called him a bonjwa or player of the year. The primary reason being never got past GSL ro8 even when he clearly had the skill to win it.
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On February 06 2019 22:11 Xain0n wrote:
I appreciated the TaeJa joke! Maybe if he beat Serral xD
I don't get why you would exclude WCS while retaining Code S; either you weight all the results throughout the year or only the tournaments where Maru and Serral were both present.
Maru could have definitely won all the WCS if he replaced Serral, even if he definitely had not reached his best level yet when Leipzeig was played: he lost 2-3 to TIME in WESG qualifiers less than two weeks before the event and got soundly defeated by herO 2-0 in his Code S a couple of days after
It's worth noting that Maru vs Keen match was irrelevant and he didn't take it seriously at all. If I remember correctly in the actual WeSG event he 3-0'd TIME, Nerchio, Scarlett, Reynor, Showtime, and even Serral himself.
And he never played herO in Code S. He did lose to Keen and Classic in groups but beat them both on rematches.
As far as your first point goes, because GSL is just higher level competition. The last Code S season had at least the top 20 players globally except one (Serral). Serral winning WCS is less of an achievement because it didn't have any other top 10 players in. Serral winning blizzcon however is comparable because he beat players on the same level as Maru beat in Code S.
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On February 06 2019 19:09 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2019 02:20 Xain0n wrote:On February 04 2019 17:17 deacon.frost wrote:On February 02 2019 14:23 Solar424 wrote:
Remember when winning Blizzcon made you the best player in the world? I guess that changed when a non-Korean won it. so sOs was twice the best player of the year? What kind of nonsense is this, do you remember anything before Serral won it? On February 03 2019 02:39 Xain0n wrote:
Serral "failed" by placing 3rd/4th in Katowice and 3rd in WESG? Maru didn't even reach semifinals in both Super Tournaments and at BlizzCon, that's a fail for the supposed #1 in the world.
There were four international tournaments(five if we count Pyeonchang) and Serral did better than Maru at them by winning two to one including the most prestigious of them. BlizzCon doesn't make you the most accomplished player of a certain year but it does when it's the ice on a cake comprised of other six premier tournaments.
After Serral's ascension the assumption korean tournaments authomatically involve all the best players in the world was rendered invalid; Code S, despite being open to everyone in 2018, still required to spend a considerable amount of time in Korea to play in it making it(unsurprisingly) way more of a regional Korean tournament than an international one: Serral was not required to play in it, you know, nor he was someway invited.
I want to add that Maru vs Serral's head to head didn't happen while they both were at their top; ZvT is Serral's worst matchup while Maru's TvZ arguably was his best mu in 2018. Even IF Maru beat Serral, he got taken down very often by Protoss during the whole season displaying a glaring weakness Serral didn't have.
However, I don't want to diminish Maru's accomplishment in 2018; it was probably the third best year anyone has ever had in Sc2(I prefer Mvp's 2011) and he made history with his three consecutive Code S but Serral's 2018 was just the best we have ever witnessed.
Yeah, how can Serral show weakness when his weakest MU doesn't offer anyone good in WCS scene except Special(who needs to be in very good form) and he managed to avoid the best Korean Terrans the whole 2018? Gee, I wonder. While Maru had to play all the best Protosses in the world. At least don't use such ridiculous arguments, c'mon. Ridicolous, you say. So, four of the five tournament losses Maru suffered were inflicted by three top Protoss players; however, those are not in contention for the best player of the year, are they? Relatively to 2018, we could regard them as inferior to Maru so I'd say TvP was his weakness in 2018. On the other hand, who are the Korean Terran Serral managed to avoid after he ascended? TY, who lost a map to Lambo before being eliminated by Rogue at BlizzCon? Not really. Maru, on the other hand , could have beaten Serral if he managed to reach the finals(which he didn't) even if I personally doubt he would have been capable of, at BlizzCon; moreover, Maru is in the same tier as Serral in contention for the best player in 2018, TvZ was his best matchup during the year and ZvT is Serral's weakest. That's not really the same as Maru's TvP losses, don't you think? Speaking of Rodya, he is so much better at gauging BW feats since Korea is the single meaningful region and comparing achievements is incredibly easier; no one can say Best is better than Rain looking at what they respectively won. In sc2 you guys are instead under the impression foreigner scene is marginally better than it was in 2014 and that Code S is still embarassingly ahead WCS; GSL is indeed harder and Serral is in a league of his own, but Neeb getting to ro4 should ring a bell . If Serral and Maru were switched, you'd have given give WCS titles to Maru for granted but how can you then doubt Serral would have won Code S at least twice (Season 2 and 3)? Maybe if Serral stops avoiding Code S for few seasons we can know better, but currently his bracket luck in 2018 meant he never plyayed TY nor Maru in an offline BO3 or better. The only BO3 against Maru he lost. I believe he wouldn't get any GSL title in 2018. Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 18:29 Harris1st wrote:
Ahh how I love this discussion. It repeats itself over multiple threads with multiple people involved.
We will just have to wait and see what 2019 brings us, starting with IEM. Can't wait
- Will Serral cement his status as the (first) SC2 bonjwa?
- Will Maru topple the reigning Blizzcon champ?
- Will WCS Circuit players step up and get some Top 8 finishes
or will the top 8 consist of 7 Koreans + Serral again?
The biggest rivalry award is so spot on, at least there is no discussion XD When 3 consecutive Code S titles are not enough for banjo status while 4 lesser tournaments are. Damn.
We can call Serral the foreigner bonjwa for now, until he cements his status at IEM. I would think nobody can argue with that, but you guys will find a way, I'm sure 
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On February 06 2019 22:50 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 22:11 Xain0n wrote:
I appreciated the TaeJa joke! Maybe if he beat Serral xD
I don't get why you would exclude WCS while retaining Code S; either you weight all the results throughout the year or only the tournaments where Maru and Serral were both present.
Maru could have definitely won all the WCS if he replaced Serral, even if he definitely had not reached his best level yet when Leipzeig was played: he lost 2-3 to TIME in WESG qualifiers less than two weeks before the event and got soundly defeated by herO 2-0 in his Code S a couple of days after It's worth noting that Maru vs Keen match was irrelevant and he didn't take it seriously at all. If I remember correctly in the actual WeSG event he 3-0'd TIME, Nerchio, Scarlett, Reynor, Showtime, and even Serral himself. And he never played herO in Code S. He did lose to Keen and Classic in groups but beat them both on rematches. As far as your first point goes, because GSL is just higher level competition. The last Code S season had at least the top 20 players globally except one (Serral). Serral winning WCS is less of an achievement because it didn't have any other top 10 players in. Serral winning blizzcon however is comparable because he beat players on the same level as Maru beat in Code S.
Code S being harder competition doesn't mean you can completely discard WCS, whose level is evidently higher than you think: how do you explain Neeb's and Reynor's run(the latter was arguably eliminated because of a very hard group) after basically saying top 20 players in the world were all koreans but Serral? Scarlett's Code S run and Pyeonchang victory, too, would suggest that WCS best players could be worth Ro8/ro4 code S spots; definitely not merely ro16/ro32 as you say.
According to Liquipedia, herO beat Maru the 31st of January 2018 in Group H of Code S Season 1! I was trying to show that Maru in January wasn't as good as he became in March so implying him autowinning WCS Leipzeig isn't that safe;. the same goes for Serral not having reached his peak when he had to face Maru at WESG main event.
I agree that Serral looked mortal and beatable in Montreal, not that much in Valencia where only Scarlett tested him; I'd say, too, that Maru seemed more vulnerable, as well as not as creative, after Code S season 2 and was very close to lose Season 3 finals.
Serral didn't just step up for two weekenders, in 2018 he had the longest and most dominant offline streak ever(top koreans included) that started after Nation Wars and made him win the two(three if we count HSC) international Championship that were played during this period, namely GSL vs the World and BlizzCon.
Region locked or not, Code S is a regional tournament as it practically forces you to live in Korea for months so you can't really blame Serral for not playing it(even if I'd love he would try in 2019); he won all the regional championships related to the region he is part of, WCS, and you can't say it counts nothing because it's not as competitive as GSL.
Regarding Rogue, I'll never cease to repeat he won three weekenders in 2017 after having accomplished nothing in the first half of the year, the fourth being Katowice in March 2018; that's why he was not player of the year(and i lol at Artosis calling him Bonjwa).
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@Charoisaur My point wasn't that GSL is irrelevant; were it not for GSL Maru wouldn't even be in the discussion for player of the year. The relevant points to the Maru vs Serral debate are as follows:
1. Serral did quite a bit better than Maru at large international events
2. Both Serral and Maru dominated their respective regions; both displayed unprecedented levels of consistency
3. GSL is without a doubt more difficult than WCS. Without constant live matches between GSL and WCS players it's impossible to judge how big this gap is.
So, Serral vs Maru ultimately comes down to judging just how much harder Code S is than WCS. Unfortunately, the current system doesn't have enough truly international events to determine the answer to that question, hence why Maru and Serral are both perfectly defensible choices for best player of 2018.
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EPT
