EPT2018 in Review - Team Liquid Awards - Page 5
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Waxangel
United States33705 Posts
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champyT
3 Posts
On the other hand, Rogue in 2017 could have had a MUCH better year. He had straight up poor/subpar performances in korean individual leagues. This can be somewhat extended to Maru, as personally, his inabilities to perform in both super tournaments, GSL vs the world and Blizzcon are what put him behind Serral in the end in 2018. He *just* had to reach the final of Blizzcon to keep his edge over Serral, but he didn't. In a way, he just had more *fails* than Serral. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16101 Posts
On February 02 2019 21:02 champyT wrote: There is something else, which I feel is not considered enough regarding Serral. He almost never had poor results during the entire year (except PyeongChang at the very beginning of 2018). Since Nationwars in April, he had a perfect run, winning every tournament he entered. There was literally nothing he could have done from this point to have a better year, as he did not drop a match. On the other hand, Rogue in 2017 could have had a MUCH better year. He had straight up poor/subpar performances in korean individual leagues. This can be somewhat extended to Maru, as personally, his inabilities to perform in both super tournaments, GSL vs the world and Blizzcon are what put him behind Serral in the end in 2018. He *just* had to reach the final of Blizzcon to keep his edge over Serral, but he didn't. In a way, he just had more *fails* than Serral. when you compete in more hard tournaments you naturally have more "fails". Serral failed in WESG and IEM Katowice but he competed only in 4 tournaments with the best players. Maru won 4 tournaments with the best players and failed in 5 so percentage wise there's not a big difference but Maru won more tournaments with all the best players. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
There were four international tournaments(five if we count Pyeonchang) and Serral did better than Maru at them by winning two to one including the most prestigious of them. BlizzCon doesn't make you the most accomplished player of a certain year but it does when it's the ice on a cake comprised of other six premier tournaments. After Serral's ascension the assumption korean tournaments authomatically involve all the best players in the world was rendered invalid; Code S, despite being open to everyone in 2018, still required to spend a considerable amount of time in Korea to play in it making it(unsurprisingly) way more of a regional Korean tournament than an international one: Serral was not required to play in it, you know, nor he was someway invited. I want to add that Maru vs Serral's head to head didn't happen while they both were at their top; ZvT is Serral's worst matchup while Maru's TvZ arguably was his best mu in 2018. Even IF Maru beat Serral, he got taken down very often by Protoss during the whole season displaying a glaring weakness Serral didn't have. However, I don't want to diminish Maru's accomplishment in 2018; it was probably the third best year anyone has ever had in Sc2(I prefer Mvp's 2011) and he made history with his three consecutive Code S but Serral's 2018 was just the best we have ever witnessed. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16101 Posts
The amount of times GSL is harder to win compared to winning WCS is so high I don't understand how you can even remotely compare them. Neeb won 3/4 WCS wins in 2017 despite dropping out in the group stage of both Katowice and Blizzcon but somehow you think top 5 koreans wouldn't be able to dominate WCS. Not that it matters anyway. An award awarded by members of the foreign community is always going to be heavily biased in favor of the foreigner... | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
WCS Zerg are incredibly close to korean ones(actually better at ZvZ in my opinion), Protoss are decent but not there yet whereas Terran are very inferior in skill(and number) compared to korean ones; the gap exists but it's nowhere as huge as you think it is. We are not in 2014 anymore! As far as I know korean sc2 fans were praising Serral and claiming him to be the best after BlizzCon while Team Liquid hasn't really been the place where the bias for foreigners was strong; even now there are few korean elitits around. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16101 Posts
On February 03 2019 03:56 Xain0n wrote: GSL in 2018 was so unbearably harder than WCS Neeb made it to ro4, Scarlett to ro8 and Reynor to ro16; moreover, you need immense consistency to win four consecutive premier tournaments, no matter how strong you are compared to the field. WCS Zerg are incredibly close to korean ones(actually better at ZvZ in my opinion), Protoss are decent but not there yet whereas Terran are very inferior in skill(and number) compared to korean ones; the gap exists but it's nowhere as huge as you think it is. We are not in 2014 anymore! As far as I know korean sc2 fans were praising Serral and claiming him to be the best after BlizzCon while Team Liquid hasn't really been the place where the bias for foreigners was strong; even now there are few korean elitits around. he definitely was the best after Blizzcon however he clearly wasn't the best player of 2018 as a whole. Even the TL Power-Rank had Maru at #1 every time until his Blizzcon win and I fail to see how this one win makes up for being in Maru's shadow the entire rest of the year. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 03 2019 06:07 Charoisaur wrote: he definitely was the best after Blizzcon however he clearly wasn't the best player of 2018 as a whole. Even the TL Power-Rank had Maru at #1 every time until his Blizzcon win and I fail to see how this one win makes up for being in Maru's shadow the entire rest of the year. That's due to the lack of international tournaments after WESG in March as GSL vs the world was held in August. Serral was behind Maru in terms of accomplishments until his BlizzCon win and that explains his #2 in Power Rankings but I think he had already become the best player before GSL vs the World. Had Serral lost against Stats there would have been no discussion; BlizzCon is what gave Serral a slight advantage over Maru(and HSC is what sealed it imho). | ||
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MrMischelito
347 Posts
even the caster didn't watch this game but rather checked out the parallel stream... also, if you really wanted yo pick a ZvZ, Serral vs Dark was in my opinion way more interesting. | ||
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Veluvian
Bulgaria256 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On February 02 2019 14:23 Solar424 wrote: Remember when winning Blizzcon made you the best player in the world? I guess that changed when a non-Korean won it. so sOs was twice the best player of the year? What kind of nonsense is this, do you remember anything before Serral won it? On February 03 2019 02:39 Xain0n wrote: Serral "failed" by placing 3rd/4th in Katowice and 3rd in WESG? Maru didn't even reach semifinals in both Super Tournaments and at BlizzCon, that's a fail for the supposed #1 in the world. There were four international tournaments(five if we count Pyeonchang) and Serral did better than Maru at them by winning two to one including the most prestigious of them. BlizzCon doesn't make you the most accomplished player of a certain year but it does when it's the ice on a cake comprised of other six premier tournaments. After Serral's ascension the assumption korean tournaments authomatically involve all the best players in the world was rendered invalid; Code S, despite being open to everyone in 2018, still required to spend a considerable amount of time in Korea to play in it making it(unsurprisingly) way more of a regional Korean tournament than an international one: Serral was not required to play in it, you know, nor he was someway invited. I want to add that Maru vs Serral's head to head didn't happen while they both were at their top; ZvT is Serral's worst matchup while Maru's TvZ arguably was his best mu in 2018. Even IF Maru beat Serral, he got taken down very often by Protoss during the whole season displaying a glaring weakness Serral didn't have. However, I don't want to diminish Maru's accomplishment in 2018; it was probably the third best year anyone has ever had in Sc2(I prefer Mvp's 2011) and he made history with his three consecutive Code S but Serral's 2018 was just the best we have ever witnessed. Yeah, how can Serral show weakness when his weakest MU doesn't offer anyone good in WCS scene except Special(who needs to be in very good form) and he managed to avoid the best Korean Terrans the whole 2018? Gee, I wonder. While Maru had to play all the best Protosses in the world. At least don't use such ridiculous arguments, c'mon. | ||
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Rodya
546 Posts
On February 02 2019 18:14 Waxangel wrote: I think a lot of the Serral-Maru debate hinges on how you rate a Circuit stop win. It's definitely a lesser accomplishment than winning a Code S, but some go as far as to look at it as almost meaningless (I don't agree but I can see how you'd arrive there). This is literally all this argument is. It's pointless to argue. There are like 6 or 7 people on this forum that semi-regularly post that are willing to stand up to the opinion that a WCS win isn't significantly less prestigous that a Code S win. It's funny that people think we hate Serral, because we definitely do not. There are other examples of this sort of thing happening in real life, but if I mention them I'll probably get banned. Basically if you don't agree that X is the best thing ever, then that implies that you hate X. Therefore you are shamed into loving X, unless you are willing to accept endless harassment and provocation. It's too bad, because the sc:r foreigner scene is way more fun and healthy. Just compare the two - playing bw is so much more fun for me because the people I can talk to about it are much more friendly and civil. Even though there are people that agree with the last TL power ranking, you don't get barraged with insults for saying Last > Sharp or Flash > Soulkey. There haven't been derogatory terms reinvented for the use on people who think that BeSt is the best protoss in the world, even though Rain and Mini and Shuttle have put up better results than him offline recently. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On February 05 2019 00:18 Rodya wrote: This is literally all this argument is. It's pointless to argue. There are like 6 or 7 people on this forum that semi-regularly post that are willing to stand up to the opinion that a WCS win isn't significantly less prestigous that a Code S win. It's funny that people think we hate Serral, because we definitely do not. There are other examples of this sort of thing happening in real life, but if I mention them I'll probably get banned. Basically if you don't agree that X is the best thing ever, then that implies that you hate X. Therefore you are shamed into loving X, unless you are willing to accept endless harassment and provocation. It's too bad, because the sc:r foreigner scene is way more fun and healthy. Just compare the two - playing bw is so much more fun for me because the people I can talk to about it are much more friendly and civil. Even though there are people that agree with the last TL power ranking, you don't get barraged with insults for saying Last > Sharp or Flash > Soulkey. There haven't been derogatory terms reinvented for the use on people who think that BeSt is the best protoss in the world, even though Rain and Mini and Shuttle have put up better results than him offline recently. Maybe because there doesn't exist a group of obtuse BeSt fans that are terrible at making analogies, and who try to diminish Rain's ASL win every chance they get | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On February 02 2019 18:14 Waxangel wrote: I think a lot of the Serral-Maru debate hinges on how you rate a Circuit stop win. It's definitely a lesser accomplishment than winning a Code S, but some go as far as to look at it as almost meaningless (I don't agree but I can see how you'd arrive there). They aren't meaningless in terms of wins. It doesn't make much sense to hold Serral's wcs wins against korean players that aren't able to play in them. The few mixed weekenders (Katowice, wesg, gsl the world etc) tend to tell the same story, which is that Serral can compete with top koreans but the rest of the wcs field can't. That and I think everyone knows if you gave Maru four extra tournaments filled with the same players Serral beat across the four wcs wins, he'd have won those four extra tournaments in 2018 as well. On February 02 2019 14:23 Solar424 wrote: Remember when winning Blizzcon made you the best player in the world? I guess that changed when a non-Korean won it. Indeed PartinG was #1 in 2012 over Life, Mvp, or DRG sOs was #1 in 2013 over INno, Soulkey, Maru, Dear, or Taeja Life was #1 in 2014 over Zest and soO sOs was #1 in 2015 over Life, Maru, Classic, or herO Rogue was #1 in 2017 over INno and Stats | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 04 2019 17:17 deacon.frost wrote: so sOs was twice the best player of the year? What kind of nonsense is this, do you remember anything before Serral won it? Yeah, how can Serral show weakness when his weakest MU doesn't offer anyone good in WCS scene except Special(who needs to be in very good form) and he managed to avoid the best Korean Terrans the whole 2018? Gee, I wonder. While Maru had to play all the best Protosses in the world. At least don't use such ridiculous arguments, c'mon. Ridicolous, you say. So, four of the five tournament losses Maru suffered were inflicted by three top Protoss players; however, those are not in contention for the best player of the year, are they? Relatively to 2018, we could regard them as inferior to Maru so I'd say TvP was his weakness in 2018. On the other hand, who are the Korean Terran Serral managed to avoid after he ascended? TY, who lost a map to Lambo before being eliminated by Rogue at BlizzCon? Not really. Maru, on the other hand , could have beaten Serral if he managed to reach the finals(which he didn't) even if I personally doubt he would have been capable of, at BlizzCon; moreover, Maru is in the same tier as Serral in contention for the best player in 2018, TvZ was his best matchup during the year and ZvT is Serral's weakest. That's not really the same as Maru's TvP losses, don't you think? Speaking of Rodya, he is so much better at gauging BW feats since Korea is the single meaningful region and comparing achievements is incredibly easier; no one can say Best is better than Rain looking at what they respectively won. In sc2 you guys are instead under the impression foreigner scene is marginally better than it was in 2014 and that Code S is still embarassingly ahead WCS; GSL is indeed harder and Serral is in a league of his own, but Neeb getting to ro4 should ring a bell . If Serral and Maru were switched, you'd have given give WCS titles to Maru for granted but how can you then doubt Serral would have won Code S at least twice (Season 2 and 3)? | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7420 Posts
We will just have to wait and see what 2019 brings us, starting with IEM. Can't wait - Will Serral cement his status as the (first) SC2 bonjwa? - Will Maru topple the reigning Blizzcon champ? - Will WCS Circuit players step up and get some Top 8 finishes or will the top 8 consist of 7 Koreans + Serral again? The biggest rivalry award is so spot on, at least there is no discussion XD | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On February 05 2019 02:20 Xain0n wrote: Ridicolous, you say. So, four of the five tournament losses Maru suffered were inflicted by three top Protoss players; however, those are not in contention for the best player of the year, are they? Relatively to 2018, we could regard them as inferior to Maru so I'd say TvP was his weakness in 2018. On the other hand, who are the Korean Terran Serral managed to avoid after he ascended? TY, who lost a map to Lambo before being eliminated by Rogue at BlizzCon? Not really. Maru, on the other hand , could have beaten Serral if he managed to reach the finals(which he didn't) even if I personally doubt he would have been capable of, at BlizzCon; moreover, Maru is in the same tier as Serral in contention for the best player in 2018, TvZ was his best matchup during the year and ZvT is Serral's weakest. That's not really the same as Maru's TvP losses, don't you think? Speaking of Rodya, he is so much better at gauging BW feats since Korea is the single meaningful region and comparing achievements is incredibly easier; no one can say Best is better than Rain looking at what they respectively won. In sc2 you guys are instead under the impression foreigner scene is marginally better than it was in 2014 and that Code S is still embarassingly ahead WCS; GSL is indeed harder and Serral is in a league of his own, but Neeb getting to ro4 should ring a bell . If Serral and Maru were switched, you'd have given give WCS titles to Maru for granted but how can you then doubt Serral would have won Code S at least twice (Season 2 and 3)? Maybe if Serral stops avoiding Code S for few seasons we can know better, but currently his bracket luck in 2018 meant he never plyayed TY nor Maru in an offline BO3 or better. The only BO3 against Maru he lost. I believe he wouldn't get any GSL title in 2018. On February 06 2019 18:29 Harris1st wrote: Ahh how I love this discussion. It repeats itself over multiple threads with multiple people involved. We will just have to wait and see what 2019 brings us, starting with IEM. Can't wait - Will Serral cement his status as the (first) SC2 bonjwa? - Will Maru topple the reigning Blizzcon champ? - Will WCS Circuit players step up and get some Top 8 finishes or will the top 8 consist of 7 Koreans + Serral again? The biggest rivalry award is so spot on, at least there is no discussion XD When 3 consecutive Code S titles are not enough for banjo status while 4 lesser tournaments are. Damn. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16101 Posts
It's all blind fanboy hype that speaks out of them. Replace Serral's ID with TRUE and he probably wouldn't even be in contention for player of the year in the shadow of Maru's dominance of the GSL. The argument those people use to defend their position are quite ridicolous. Suddenly winning Blizzcon alone is the all determining factor for player of the year despite nobody arguing that in the previous years. Suddenly WCS wins are as prestigious as GSL wins despite nobody thinking Neeb's 2017 was as good as Rogue's because they won the same number of tournaments... | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 06 2019 19:09 deacon.frost wrote: Maybe if Serral stops avoiding Code S for few seasons we can know better, but currently his bracket luck in 2018 meant he never plyayed TY nor Maru in an offline BO3 or better. The only BO3 against Maru he lost. I believe he wouldn't get any GSL title in 2018. When 3 consecutive Code S titles are not enough for banjo status while 4 lesser tournaments are. Damn. As I have said multiple times, Maru vs Serral at WESG(it was a bo5) was played when Maru undisputably was the best player in the world, before Serral took the ultimate step to the top; TY's TvZ is not close to Maru's and it's unlikely he could have stopped Serral after his ascension as you are suggesting he could. You delude yourself if you think the strongest player in the world(Serral) wouldn't have won Code S 2 and 3 if he were to replace Maru; I also think he'd have won at least GSL 3 if he were to play against Maru and that Serral's form at BlizzCon was out of everyone's reach, including Maru. Bonjwa is about dominance and Maru lost way too many tournaments! Serral has Bonjwa level dominance with his winning streak but he needs to win a wider array of international tournaments; If he wins IEM and/or WESG, he would deserve to be crowned as such. The last post made me doubt of Chairo's reading skills: I never said WCS are as prestigious as Code S, just that their level was closer in 2018 than in the past and that you can't discharge them as meaningless tournaments . And I never said winning BlizzCon alone was enough to become best player of the year, but that it was the key point in making me think Serral's 2018 was better than Maru's . I didn't know TRUE was hiding under Serral's mask, but I welcome him as our new Sc2 Overlord without any doubt; try to think TaeJa had the same accomplishment of Serral in 2018 then tell me he wouldn't have won player of the year. | ||
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dysenterymd
1250 Posts
One useful comparison is to consider the tournaments both Maru and Serral attended. Serral has a significantly better record here. They did equally well at IEM Katowice, Maru did better at WESG, and Serral did better at GSL vs the World and Blizzcon. In terms of players WESG was by far the weakest of these four, so unless you value h2h record above all, Serral has a much better performance in their common tournaments. Neither Serral > Maru nor Maru > Serral are insane or biased ranks, it's about power ranking philosophy at the end of the day. | ||
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