EPTWCS Ladder Race - Possible ladder abuse on NA server - Pag…
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Kurao
215 Posts
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genji11111
12 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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p1oneer
Latvia50 Posts
For casual players, ladder might become something they would avoid. Or anyway maybe mom came in into the room and made him do his homework so he just quit starcraft  or whatever reason why one player might leave the game. Can argue of course, that these are pros etc, but if casual player reaches GM, then he can't leave the game when he wants? or what? I think best decision for Blizzard is just to note that you can't use ladder as qualification and maximum give a notice to players. Since apparently one player is not allowed to go for one build or another and leave game earlier than expected playing ladder and not televised games. And never login to play 1 game only. | ||
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Rob-Zero
Germany460 Posts
On January 15 2019 18:52 p1oneer wrote: Totally agree that decision about qualification for such a big event through ladder was incredibly stupid. Because even disqualifying players for match fixing on ladder would be even more ridiculous. For casual players, ladder might become something they would avoid. Or anyway maybe mom came in into the room and made him do his homework so he just quit starcraft or whatever reason why one player might leave the game. Can argue of course, that these are pros etc, but if casual player reaches GM, then he can't leave the game when he wants? or what? I think best decision for Blizzard is just to note that you can't use ladder as qualification and maximum give a notice to players. Since apparently one player is not allowed to go for one build or another and leave game earlier than expected playing ladder and not televised games. And never login to play 1 game only.Ladder qualifier is only for like 3 days, all the rest of the time you can do whatever you want. And i don´t know, my mom never came into my room at 11.59pm to make me do my homework, aside from that are we not talking about 1 game where someone left early, we are talking about suspicious games from players that were playing way above their potential all of a sudden, left more games early against specific opponents etc. Please do your homework before posting something like that. | ||
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p1oneer
Latvia50 Posts
hold your recommendations in your pants please.My point was that to give a proper punishment is ridiculous for ladder games imo. e-sports is there for many years, as guys mentioned, same was happening previously in other games (Blizzard games) too. Also there are practices that might be taken from real sports. P.S. My last homework was already done like 15 years ago User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On January 15 2019 18:52 p1oneer wrote: Totally agree that decision about qualification for such a big event through ladder was incredibly stupid. Because even disqualifying players for match fixing on ladder would be even more ridiculous. For casual players, ladder might become something they would avoid. Or anyway maybe mom came in into the room and made him do his homework so he just quit starcraft or whatever reason why one player might leave the game. Can argue of course, that these are pros etc, but if casual player reaches GM, then he can't leave the game when he wants? or what? I think best decision for Blizzard is just to note that you can't use ladder as qualification and maximum give a notice to players. Since apparently one player is not allowed to go for one build or another and leave game earlier than expected playing ladder and not televised games. And never login to play 1 game only.Ok, let s take it one at a time 1. No, ladder qualifier is not a stupid system. The fact that people are trying to cheat doesn't make it a stupid system. It could be criticized if there were cases when cheating went unnoticed until too late, or cheating was observed but no action taken. 2. How on earth would this make casual players avoid the ladder? A. Casual players dont have 6k+ mmr to meet the competitors who have any chance of qualifying B. Even if they did, it affects them in no way whatsoever, they just play normal game like they would always C. If by some strange happenstance they happen to insta-leave a casual 6k+mmr ladder game which nets crucial points to someone who qualifies, it wouldn't get them in any trouble without other factors, as long as it can be explained normally, like "Look, my internet failed as the game started, I dont know my opponent, we have no connection with one another, my account activity is normal, same IP as always, it's one loss, coincidence" 3. If it was one game, as I just explained above, any number of plausible scenarios can be found and accepted. We here talk about: A) a series of strange losses, including insta-leaves, and 2 minute losses in the last day of the qualifiers, including an instant-leave one in the last 2 minutes. Said insta-leave was the only game (win) of the qualifying player who snatched the last spot. If the game lasted 2 minutes or more, the game would not have counted towards the competition, and he would not have qualified B) all the beneficiaries of these losses know each other and have something in common C) The account that registered these losses has suspicious activity, a 500 MMR spike to begin with, different hotkey setup for the games in the period of time relevant for the qualifiers, and if these werent enough IPs and physical addresses can be checked by the organizers. D) The owner of the account was investigated by the team he's in contract with, and was released immediately. Saying ladder is stupid and shouldn't be used because people are trying to cheat and get caught is the same as saying depositing money in a bank is stupid, since some robbers tried to steal it and they were instantly caught by the security measures in place. We shouldnt deposit money in banks, because it incentives bank-robberies, and it's the bank's fault when the robbers get caught and punished. | ||
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Dave4
494 Posts
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Bignaked
1 Post
And on this part I have to agree, your arguments are flawed : The fact that people are trying to cheat is a fact YOU HAVE TO INCLUDE in your reasoning, because people will try. Caricatural example : if you just ask one of the two players from a ladder match about their results instead of looking at data from ladder, you're making it unnecessarily unsafe. The problem is indeed when a very high MMR player, who is not reasonably in contention for the ladder race, might be tempted to give an edge to someone because he prefers him, or because they just got secretly in touch and agreed on a monetary trade or anything, these are not possibilities you can just blow away from an organisation standpoint. I like the cool aspects about the ladder race don't get me wrong, but even an example you took clearly shows that it can be bad : what would people say if someone actually took a clutch win for top 8 because of a disconnection ? It's not against the rule and it can be argued that it's part of all the ladder randomness, but is it what we truly wants ? | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On January 15 2019 19:57 Bignaked wrote: Honestly I think his argument is not trying to apply to the case which is what you're trying to do. I think you would both agree on the fact the the case was pretty clear cut. But I think p1ioneer's view was more about all the possibilities of wrongdoing in general. And on this part I have to agree, your arguments are flawed : The fact that people are trying to cheat is a fact YOU HAVE TO INCLUDE in your reasoning, because people will try. Caricatural example : if you just ask one of the two players from a ladder match about their results instead of looking at data from ladder, you're making it unnecessarily unsafe. The problem is indeed when a very high MMR player, who is not reasonably in contention for the ladder race, might be tempted to give an edge to someone because he prefers him, or because they just got secretly in touch and agreed on a monetary trade or anything, these are not possibilities you can just blow away from an organisation standpoint. I like the cool aspects about the ladder race don't get me wrong, but even an example you took clearly shows that it can be bad : what would people say if someone actually took a clutch win for top 8 because of a disconnection ? It's not against the rule and it can be argued that it's part of all the ladder randomness, but is it what we truly wants ? The thing is, in this very thread more elaborate cheating-attempts were referenced from the past, and those have been caught as well. The 2016 controversy, and TSL way back when.... Of course, ladder competition have all these complexities, which requires a lot of effort from the organizers to ensure a fair outcome, that's why most of the time the organizers choose Online qualifiers. Now, people can very easily try and cheat in online qualifiers as well, by account sharing (better players helping out lower friends by playing on their account), using third party hacks, running the stream on another monitor if there isnt a significant delay applied, having a coach/assitant with you who s focusing on the minimap / supply-cap etc (granted, for 90%+ players this one would be more annoying than helpful, but it is a possible form of cheating). These things can be caught in very much the same way as ladder-games related cheats, by looking at replays, hotkey setups, and eventually IP's and other things. The only plus element of randomness for the ladder is, that genuine disconnections net you wins/losses, while if it was an online qualifier, you could rule a re-match and problem solved. Now, even on ladder, this cause the problem if it's really a last hour loss, cuz you dont have time to make up for the lost points. For me, this unlikely scenario is an acceptable price to pay. If it happens, it happens, you cant eliminate randomness 100%. I recall Jaedong being eliminated from an important tournament because his mouse was acting up. He took the loss, threw away the mouse afterwards, and life went on. | ||
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Rob-Zero
Germany460 Posts
On January 15 2019 19:57 Bignaked wrote: Honestly I think his argument is not trying to apply to the case which is what you're trying to do. I think you would both agree on the fact the the case was pretty clear cut. But I think p1ioneer's view was more about all the possibilities of wrongdoing in general. And on this part I have to agree, your arguments are flawed : The fact that people are trying to cheat is a fact YOU HAVE TO INCLUDE in your reasoning, because people will try. Caricatural example : if you just ask one of the two players from a ladder match about their results instead of looking at data from ladder, you're making it unnecessarily unsafe. The problem is indeed when a very high MMR player, who is not reasonably in contention for the ladder race, might be tempted to give an edge to someone because he prefers him, or because they just got secretly in touch and agreed on a monetary trade or anything, these are not possibilities you can just blow away from an organisation standpoint. I like the cool aspects about the ladder race don't get me wrong, but even an example you took clearly shows that it can be bad : what would people say if someone actually took a clutch win for top 8 because of a disconnection ? It's not against the rule and it can be argued that it's part of all the ladder randomness, but is it what we truly wants ? This is just my opinion : I like the ladder qualifiers, and as far as i know there are quite a few players that like them, too. I think they are awesome and exciting, watching Lambos stream for the last hours of the qualifier was a lot of fun. And i dont think it is right to give up on them because of : A: Some players that think they are smarter than everyone else and don´t have to follow the rules and thus try to cheat. B: Some "what if´s" like "what if there is a disconnection two minutes before the time runs out that benefits another player" or "what if someone has to leave the game for xy reasons one minute before the time runs out." I understand everyone who does think the other way round and their arguments are not all invalid, but for me personally the pros are way heavier than the cons. | ||
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Howard_Kao
China261 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany7072 Posts
On January 15 2019 21:41 Howard_Kao wrote: It was said that cyan and jieshi did submit their reps to blz, not sure if its true or not, but we'll see anyway I doubt Blizz needs the players to submit their replays... it's an online game after all. Really curious how this ends. There are some valid points for and against ladder competition, which is a discussion in itself I guess. I personally don't mind it. Cheaters will always (find ways to) cheat, no matter what. Obviously this shows SC2 and e-sports in general in a really bad light (like the Tour de France after all those doping incidents) and should be punished harshly if proven | ||
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dummy1
420 Posts
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Kitai
United States880 Posts
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Arden
United States15 Posts
It looked very suspicious, but I couldn't figure out what "gain" there was to get from it. It would be a net neutral amount of ladder points earned. Is this done to keep 2 accounts for 1 person afloat in GM, and it's the match activity that's the goal (i.e. not about points)? | ||
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BaneRiders
Sweden3630 Posts
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HsDLTitich
Italy831 Posts
On January 16 2019 05:41 BaneRiders wrote: ...match throwing aside, why is TLO in the top 8 on NA? Well done and all that, but isn't he still German? He lives in Canada now | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On January 16 2019 05:41 BaneRiders wrote: ...match throwing aside, why is TLO in the top 8 on NA? Well done and all that, but isn't he still German? he lives there with his girlfriend as has a proper visa which is in accordance to blizzards requirement. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On January 14 2019 22:45 yht9657 wrote: Never understand why instead of an open qualifier WCS would rather have this whole ladder-racing thing, GSL is just way superior in this aspect with no risk of this kind of bullshit happening. Because offline qualifiers are costly for the league organizer and for the players. (The GSL qualifiers in practice covers the relatively small country of South Korea.) | ||
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