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UPDATE Jan 16:
https://wcs.starcraft2.com/en-us/news/22865613/
"Cyan, JieShi, Route, and Nice have been disqualified from WCS Winter 2019 and banned from Blizzard Esports competition until May 31, 2019.* During the ladder race of WCS Winter—Americas, Route played several suspicious matches with cyan, JieShi, and Nice. Upon review of these matches and accounts in question, it was found that several of the matches were intentionally lost by Route to the other three players involved. Nice, cyan, and JieShi were found to be colluding to intentionally trade wins with the Route account. Finally, it was discovered that both cyan and JieShi were logging into the Route account during the competition as part of this effort. This behavior is prohibited in our tournament rules under section 6.2.a. Specifically, players are prohibited from “collusion, match fixing or any other action to intentionally alter, or attempt to alter [any game], including losing a game or match with another player in order to advance one or the other’s rank,” as well as “allowing an individual who is not the registered owner of a Battle.net account to play on that Battle.net account in StarCraft II or any other Blizzard game.” Based on this disqualification, Max "Astrea" Angel, Maru "MaSa" Kim, and Erik “Erik” Braga Bermelho will qualify for WCS Winter from their ladder rankings at the conclusion of the ladder race."
https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/540780-wcs-disciplinary-rulings-jan-15-2019-cyan-jieshi-route-nice-penalized
Update: Jan 14
I feel like this situation merits a thread of its own.
As many of you know, WCS winter has been announced and it started with a ladder qualifier that concluded recently. TL thread:
https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/540094-introducing-wcs-winter-2019
Now EU looks fairly normal, however the NA server was notable because it was extremely extremely close, as seen below:
On January 14 2019 15:09 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Reddit user Jjangbi made a topic about suspicious activity, namely a relatively unknown player named Route has very quick and strange losses, I will just copy paste what he wrote:
https://old.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/afsntj/wcs_ladder_race_suspicious_throws/
"I'd like to draw some attention to some suspicious games during the closing hours of the NA WCS ladder race. Route has several suspicious losses specifically to Chinese/Taiwanese players at the final hours of the race.
vs cyan, 0 second game literally at the last second to put cyan into top 8.
vs Nice, 1:50 cannon rush
vs JieShi, 2:21 cannon rush
vs Nice, 0:29
vs Has, looks like a legit game
vs JieShi, 2:00 cannon rush
vs Nice, 0:17
I'd like to see some more investigation from Blizzard before going forward with finalizing the results. It seems like lag isn't an issue either, where he seems to be beating others just fine, just losing these suspicious games vs specific players. Can Route explain himself on these games?
Another suspicious point is that cyan was in top 8 during the day. He was eventually bumped out of top 8 later on. He only played 1 game between 3pm EST and midnight. That game was at 11:58 PM EST and a 0 second game vs Route to put himself into top 8."
Reddit user Hjax provided further details, which (for me at least) proves it beyond a reasonable doubt that it is indeed match-fixing at the very least, and very likely account-sharing was used to achieve it.
"Route lost 12 games today:
3 to PartinG (an excellent player)
5 Games to Nice (including several cannon rushes and instant leaves)
2 games to JieShi
1 Game to Cyan (an Instant leave)
1 Game to Has (looks like a normal game)
Route is normally a 5.6kish player on NA, who has played in online cups and ladder, and he is not historically a 6.2k player, but right now is at 6127 MMR, which is unusually high for him. Yet today he 2-0d future, beat DemiLove many times, and Raze as well, yet lost every single game he played against a Chinese/Taiwanese player. You can see his MMR spiked recently as well: https://www.rankedftw.com/team/4911666/#td=world&ty=c&ra=best&tyz=1&tx=60&tl=1
"
The whole comment:
https://old.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/afsntj/wcs_ladder_race_suspicious_throws/ee168ey/
From the reddit thread we know that both of them submitted these findings to Blizzard, alleging match-fixing.
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Route's team "Infinity Gaming" has spoken privately with him, and it seems the suspicions are true since they have released him from the team (further explanations in the tweet's responses):
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Why the Route guy was involved? I mean - why didn't they use some random account instead of account sharing? It appears I am missing something.
Edit> if the incident happened this way
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If it is true, I will not be surprised (at one of these players).
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It seems a bit funny that in spite of so many people crying out for justice for Astrea (9th in the ladder), he himself is also doing the same thing (Pictures from Cyan's weibo)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/I3FmqZ7.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/rGQm1ai.jpg)
From the picture we can see that the other protoss player (seems to be puck) is cannon rushing and leaving very early.
His original weibo:
卧槽太刺激了。。astrea最后10分钟和puck疯狂刷分，puck没机会出线了，连着三盘假装修地堡送分给astrea，在最后时刻把解释挤到了第9。。但是幸好，不管是他们时间最后超过了还是因为连续刷分被暴雪发觉了 总之最近天天熬夜顶着200ping苦战美服没有白费 我和解释晋级到WCS美洲区32强啦！！！
Rough translation:
Oh, so thrilling... Puck is intentionally throwing game in the last 10 minutes, for he has no chance to qualify, and cannon-rushed Astrea for 3 games and make Jieshi become 9th in the last. But thank goodness, they past the deadline and Blz discovered this. Anyway, battling on NA server with 200 ping does not end up in vain, Jieshi and I qualified for WCS America!!!
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The stuff I read on reddit is quite dirty.
I think it is best to remain silent until they sort it out clean and tidy.
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Damn, looks like people still think this is worth the risk. I am not sure if match-fixing is the right word though. I get that matches were being fixed, so it still makes sense and I'm not trying to say it's wrong or anything like that. However, this infraction is not quite the same as match-fixing involving third parties and illegal gambling (which I believe is how it has historically been understood). Then again since it's a ladder qualifier, it's still a terrible thing to do and should be punished rather severely if proven true .
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But overall I have to say that tying professional competitions to ladder results is just a really stupid decision. I have already seen numerous occasions of these drama in SC2 and Warcraft III.
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On January 14 2019 21:10 Icarus2 wrote:It seems a bit funny that in spite of so many people crying out for justice for Astrea (9th in the ladder), he himself is also doing the same thing (Quoted from Cyan's weibo) + Show Spoiler +From the picture we can see that the other protoss player (seems to be puck) is cannon rushing and leaving very early.
That is how he defends himself, by trying to find other people doing something similar? He's not denying anything?
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Can never hide from reddit!
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On January 14 2019 21:20 11cc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2019 21:10 Icarus2 wrote:It seems a bit funny that in spite of so many people crying out for justice for Astrea (9th in the ladder), he himself is also doing the same thing (Quoted from Cyan's weibo) + Show Spoiler +From the picture we can see that the other protoss player (seems to be puck) is cannon rushing and leaving very early. That is how he defends himself, by trying to find other people doing something similar? He's not denying anything?
Nah I read his post. He only mentioned how their attempt failed due to the time limit, nothing of himself. Guess Icarus unintentionally made the assumption.
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On January 14 2019 21:16 busyghost wrote:
But overall I have to say that tying professional competitions to ladder results is just a really stupid decision. I have already seen numerous occasions of these drama in SC2 and Warcraft III.
These things definitely tarnish it for sure, but boy was the EU ladder qualifier super exciting, especially because many of the players were streaming. That last hour was so unbelievable intense if you were following it through the player streams.
I think it's exciting and they should keep going with it, and if anything, they should hype it up way more than they do. Match-fixing in the ladder qualifier is quite obvious IMO, so as long as they punish accordingly, I think it's a system that can work.
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On January 14 2019 21:20 11cc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2019 21:10 Icarus2 wrote:It seems a bit funny that in spite of so many people crying out for justice for Astrea (9th in the ladder), he himself is also doing the same thing (Quoted from Cyan's weibo) + Show Spoiler +From the picture we can see that the other protoss player (seems to be puck) is cannon rushing and leaving very early. That is how he defends himself, by trying to find other people doing something similar? He's not denying anything?
So far, he just said that he has already been in top 8 before Route lost to him. And that game did not count for the ladder race for it ended after the race.
I quoted his words just want to remind everybody that not only the top 8 is suspicious of match-fixing, there are many other players might do the same thing. Why just put your eyes onto the one who qualified instead of the remaining ones. Failed to qualify through match-fixing does not mean a clear conscience. If confirmed, they should receive severe punishment as well.
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On January 14 2019 21:31 Icarus2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2019 21:20 11cc wrote:On January 14 2019 21:10 Icarus2 wrote:It seems a bit funny that in spite of so many people crying out for justice for Astrea (9th in the ladder), he himself is also doing the same thing (Quoted from Cyan's weibo) + Show Spoiler +From the picture we can see that the other protoss player (seems to be puck) is cannon rushing and leaving very early. That is how he defends himself, by trying to find other people doing something similar? He's not denying anything? So far, he just said that he has already been in top 8 before Route lost to him. And that game did not count for the ladder race for it ended after the race. I quoted his words just want to remind everybody that not only the top 8 is suspicious of match-fixing, there are many other players might do the same thing. Why just put your eyes onto the one who qualified instead of the remaining ones. Failed to qualify through match-fixing does not mean a clear conscience. If confirmed, they should receive severe punishment as well.
I just checked all puCK losses from the last 24 hours. Only other time he left very early was one game against <TryA> Erik, but he played a 24 minute game against him right after so it's weird but not suspicious, maybe he screwed up his build order or lost connection.
puCK lost to Astrea some other games as well, but those were standard lenght games. There's nothing suspicious about one failed cannon rush alone.
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On January 14 2019 21:40 11cc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2019 21:31 Icarus2 wrote:On January 14 2019 21:20 11cc wrote:On January 14 2019 21:10 Icarus2 wrote:It seems a bit funny that in spite of so many people crying out for justice for Astrea (9th in the ladder), he himself is also doing the same thing (Quoted from Cyan's weibo) + Show Spoiler +From the picture we can see that the other protoss player (seems to be puck) is cannon rushing and leaving very early. That is how he defends himself, by trying to find other people doing something similar? He's not denying anything? So far, he just said that he has already been in top 8 before Route lost to him. And that game did not count for the ladder race for it ended after the race. I quoted his words just want to remind everybody that not only the top 8 is suspicious of match-fixing, there are many other players might do the same thing. Why just put your eyes onto the one who qualified instead of the remaining ones. Failed to qualify through match-fixing does not mean a clear conscience. If confirmed, they should receive severe punishment as well. I just checked all puCK losses from the last 24 hours. Only other time he left very early was one game against <TryA> Erik, but he played a 24 minute game against him right after so it's weird but not suspicious, maybe he screwed up his build order or lost connection. puCK lost to Astrea some other games as well, but those were standard lenght games. There's nothing suspicious about one failed cannon rush alone.
Yes, I used "seems to be" because I cannot tell who the other protoss player is through barcode. I apologize for making false accusation on him.
P.S. I have edited my original post, quoted all Cyan's words with a rough translation. He posted it a few minutes after the ladder competition, which is earlier than the post on Reddit, so it seems impossible that he would say anything on that.
P.S.S I have checked the match history, seems I am totally wrong. I should apologize to both players. 
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On January 14 2019 21:16 busyghost wrote:
But overall I have to say that tying professional competitions to ladder results is just a really stupid decision. I have already seen numerous occasions of these drama in SC2 and Warcraft III.
I agree.
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Ladder race is never a good idea.
I can still remember ia and XY getting called-out for matching-fixing on ladder-race all the way back in 2013(?). The same shitty drama hits again.
Hope BLZ can handle it better this time.
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On January 14 2019 21:16 busyghost wrote:
But overall I have to say that tying professional competitions to ladder results is just a really stupid decision. I have already seen numerous occasions of these drama in SC2 and Warcraft III.
I think it is really stupid trying to cheat. It's very much a transparent process, everyone can check the match history, and the very least your opponents have access to your replays to compare hotkey setup and other stuff. Like the only way this would not have been caught was if literally nobody, nor the competitors nor the organizers checked the match-histories.
I wolud say ladder competition isnt inherently more susceptible to cheating than online qualifiers, people are just stupid, and maybe have more time to come up with their idea to try to cheat.
I was personally a big fan of TSL's ladder competition, it generates some good talking points for the community, like who's dodging opponents, who dared to play more games even though they place was already secured etc. And there's the player's streams etc.
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Maybe should require players also stream with a camera and mic on twitch to qualify by ladder, to make it harder to cheat
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Never understand why instead of an open qualifier WCS would rather have this whole ladder-racing thing, GSL is just way superior in this aspect with no risk of this kind of bullshit happening.
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anyone remember wdtour? I actually made it in the tournament because players got removed for this exact reason. and that was like 15 years ago.
how does TSL avoid it? just, transparency with replays and a lot of oversight?
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On January 14 2019 22:45 yht9657 wrote:
Never understand why instead of an open qualifier WCS would rather have this whole ladder-racing thing, GSL is just way superior in this aspect with no risk of this kind of bullshit happening.
Really, we all know there has never been any matchfixing in Korea....wait, what ?
I personally think ladder qualifiers are exciting and would like to get them even more hyped up, as anyone above me said, the TSL qualifiers back then were great and generated a lot of stories. There will always be players that think they can trick the system, no matter the system, and if this accusation is true, it just proves how dumb players can be, as it is extremely transparent who played against which opponent, at what time, for how long, etc.
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On January 14 2019 23:23 Rob-Zero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2019 22:45 yht9657 wrote:
Never understand why instead of an open qualifier WCS would rather have this whole ladder-racing thing, GSL is just way superior in this aspect with no risk of this kind of bullshit happening. Really, we all know there has never been any matchfixing in Korea....wait, what ? I personally think ladder qualifiers are exciting and would like to get them even more hyped up, as anyone above me said, the TSL qualifiers back then were great and generated a lot of stories. There will always be players that think they can trick the system, no matter the system, and if this accusation is true, it just proves how dumb players can be, as it is extremely transparent who played against which opponent, at what time, for how long, etc.
It's almost impossible to eliminate matchfixing caused by outside gambling from competitive sports since there will always be people dumb enough to try, but it's very easy to change your tournament format to prevent players from cheating like this in order to qualify.
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Sigh... The EXACT same thing happened a few years back in Hearthstone, and it seems nobody has learned anything from it...
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On January 15 2019 00:06 yht9657 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2019 23:23 Rob-Zero wrote:On January 14 2019 22:45 yht9657 wrote:
Never understand why instead of an open qualifier WCS would rather have this whole ladder-racing thing, GSL is just way superior in this aspect with no risk of this kind of bullshit happening. Really, we all know there has never been any matchfixing in Korea....wait, what ? I personally think ladder qualifiers are exciting and would like to get them even more hyped up, as anyone above me said, the TSL qualifiers back then were great and generated a lot of stories. There will always be players that think they can trick the system, no matter the system, and if this accusation is true, it just proves how dumb players can be, as it is extremely transparent who played against which opponent, at what time, for how long, etc. It's almost impossible to eliminate matchfixing caused by outside gambling from competitive sports since there will always be people dumb enough to try, but it's very easy to change your tournament format to prevent players from cheating like this in order to qualify.
Yah, i understand your argument, i just don´t think it is necessary, since i don´t think it is that big of a deal. And I don´t want to renounce of something i like just because of some dumb kids not understanding why there is no fun in not being fair. But hey, i also understand that this is my point of view and that there are a lot of people with another opinion.
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why Parting removed his spot? He had like 3 spot top 10.
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On January 15 2019 01:36 Falcon_Power wrote:
why Parting removed his spot? He had like 3 spot top 10.
Parting is not allowed to play in WCS EU or NA as far as i know, since he is in Korea. So his mmr is not taken into account for the ladder qualifier.
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On January 14 2019 21:52 RealityTheGreat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2019 21:16 busyghost wrote:
But overall I have to say that tying professional competitions to ladder results is just a really stupid decision. I have already seen numerous occasions of these drama in SC2 and Warcraft III. I agree.
i agree too.
edit: dont hate the player, hate the game. but still, if they/he are/is guilty, there is no excuse for this shit. really bad sportsmanship.
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8751 Posts
On January 14 2019 23:15 travis wrote:
anyone remember wdtour? I actually made it in the tournament because players got removed for this exact reason. and that was like 15 years ago.
how does TSL avoid it? just, transparency with replays and a lot of oversight?
Yeah, maybe someone actually involved in the process will comment, but there were so many knowledgeable people (both TL staff and fans) watching the TSL ladder so closely. I'm not sure what exact process the TSL admins used, but I think at the very least they examined the match history of every qualifying player. If anything looked fishy then they did a deeper investigation. Replays were all available to be watched, so even if games looked normal from the outside (by match length, build order, APM, etc), there were people actually watching the replays to see if there were any signs of throwing the game or abnormal play.
It's unfortunate that in 2019 there are multiple people in this thread disapproving of ladder qualifiers due to fair play being supposedly inherently unenforceable when a bunch of volunteers were capable of running some very awesome ladder qualifiers a decade ago. As others have said, ladder qualifiers can be really fun but organization and community have to be there.
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I do like when people are surprised by VERY unsurprising things
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I think the real question here is: Why do we have random people on reddit/in-game discovering this kind of stuff? Why isn't BLIZZARD cleaning up their servers?
They don't take anything seriously these days, it's a joke.
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There's a law against intentionally losing a game on ladder? You guys are ridiculous.
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On January 15 2019 03:04 Haukinger wrote:
There's a law against intentionally losing a game on ladder? You guys are ridiculous.
The ladder is part of the WCS qualifying system. It's not just throwing games on ladder for teh lulz, it's like throwing against your teammate in a tournament so that they can advance.
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On January 15 2019 01:40 Rob-Zero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2019 01:36 Falcon_Power wrote:
why Parting removed his spot? He had like 3 spot top 10. Parting is not allowed to play in WCS EU or NA as far as i know, since he is in Korea. So his mmr is not taken into account for the ladder qualifier.
Thank god for fairness for all players! /s
Seriously why is region lock still a thing.
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On January 15 2019 03:04 Haukinger wrote:
There's a law against intentionally losing a game on ladder? You guys are ridiculous.
"Losing a game on ladder"? Nope, this is Cyan laddering and boosting Route's account to 6.2k so they could be matched in ladder and do whatever they need to get the spots... in this case taking a free win (0:00 win) 2 min before the time expires to get the last one.
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On January 15 2019 03:04 Haukinger wrote:
There's a law against intentionally losing a game on ladder? You guys are ridiculous.
It is when it's part of the competition.
Plus account-sharing which is also alleged and proven beyond a reasonable doubt is expressly against the general ToS as well.
EDIT: 6.2. Cheating.
(a) Players must compete to the best of their ability at all times. Any form of cheating will not be
tolerated. All players are prohibited from influencing or manipulating a WCS game or match so
that the outcome is determined by anything other than its merits. Examples of cheating would
include:
• Collusion, match fixing or any other action to intentionally alter, or attempt to alter, the results
of any game or match, including losing a game or match with another player in order to
advance one or the other’s rank;
• Allowing an individual who is not the registered owner of a Battle.net Account to play on
that Battle.net Account in StarCraft II or any other Blizzard game.
(b) If someone asks you to bet on any WCS game or “fix” the outcome of a game, you must
immediately report this contact to Blizzard using the following email address:
sc2admin@blizzard.com.
https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/page_media/m5/M538872VEAGF1516242955164.pdf
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On January 15 2019 03:04 Haukinger wrote:
There's a law against intentionally losing a game on ladder? You guys are ridiculous.
When you thought that you finally found something people can't fucking disagree with, here comes The Guy.
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Look at good guy Has man, he doesn't need this drama and bull**it...the guy is legit, really happy for him!
Disappointed in the others 
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On January 15 2019 03:52 Zerg.Zilla wrote:Look at good guy Has man, he doesn't need this drama and bull**it...the guy is legit, really happy for him! Disappointed in the others
Has is the man who is trying to save Starcraft. Infinite respect
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Braavos36383 Posts
man this just takes me back to comparing ICCUP ip addresses for all TSL players
i remember having to ban so many top players for win abuse
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At a glance, the cannon rush games, while shitty, would set a dangerous precedent to punish those. It was often said during the controversy around Naniwa's infamous probe rush that if he had even just cannon-rushed, that would have been something. So I could see not punishing Jieshi for this, without further evidence. Just my opinion. I could see arguments against it, but I just think unfortunately it'd be a very tough thing to police. Like, if the "legit" game against Has had also been a cannon rush, that wouldn't really incriminate Has, you know Has is gonna be cheesy so it's fair to try to throw him off his game early. Then again, it did happen multiple times...
There's absolutely no excuse for Cyan (0 second game with 2 minutes left in the competition) and Nice (the 29 second game and 17 second game) however. They and Route should be banned for a year.
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On January 15 2019 05:48 TheDougler wrote:
At a glance, the cannon rush games, while shitty, would set a dangerous precedent to punish those. It was often said during the controversy around Naniwa's infamous probe rush that if he had even just cannon-rushed, that would have been something. So I could see not punishing Jieshi for this, without further evidence. Just my opinion. I could see arguments against it, but I just think unfortunately it'd be a very tough thing to police. Like, if the "legit" game against Has had also been a cannon rush, that wouldn't really incriminate Has, you know Has is gonna be cheesy so it's fair to try to throw him off his game early. Then again, it did happen multiple times...
There's absolutely no excuse for Cyan (0 second game with 2 minutes left in the competition) and Nice (the 29 second game and 17 second game) however. They and Route should be banned for a year.
There isn't any evidence (that we know of) that Nice or Jieshi are complicit to this match-fixing though. It's possible that Cyan playing as Route quit those games really fast of his own volition, because they're his buddies or because he was trying to get matched up against himself etc. I'm not sure how you could prove that they knew what Cyan was doing.
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:O Avilo was right all along!
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On January 15 2019 05:57 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2019 05:48 TheDougler wrote:
At a glance, the cannon rush games, while shitty, would set a dangerous precedent to punish those. It was often said during the controversy around Naniwa's infamous probe rush that if he had even just cannon-rushed, that would have been something. So I could see not punishing Jieshi for this, without further evidence. Just my opinion. I could see arguments against it, but I just think unfortunately it'd be a very tough thing to police. Like, if the "legit" game against Has had also been a cannon rush, that wouldn't really incriminate Has, you know Has is gonna be cheesy so it's fair to try to throw him off his game early. Then again, it did happen multiple times...
There's absolutely no excuse for Cyan (0 second game with 2 minutes left in the competition) and Nice (the 29 second game and 17 second game) however. They and Route should be banned for a year. There isn't any evidence (that we know of) that Nice or Jieshi are complicit to this match-fixing though. It's possible that Cyan playing as Route quit those games really fast of his own volition, because they're his buddies or because he was trying to get matched up against himself etc. I'm not sure how you could prove that they knew what Cyan was doing.
That's true I suppose. Good point.
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Yes i agree with someone above. You identify a month before the season starts that you intend to compete in the wcs ladder, You are not limited by time but all games HAVE to be streamed, kinda like speedrun races. I know it can really hurt some players due to connection or technology but a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere. I am absolutelky sure they all have each other on each others friends list and send a message like, hey man, if i vs you im in top 8 can you go easy? or mate, ur 56th, if i match you will you throw?
Its a shame but hey, this will also boost the channels in the sc2 list and would be really cool to find new p[layers looking to break out while we all watch their games, im flicking through the best ZPT most of the night, its amazing sc atm
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On January 15 2019 06:28 Zreg wrote:
Yes i agree with someone above. You identify a month before the season starts that you intend to compete in the wcs ladder, You are not limited by time but all games HAVE to be streamed, kinda like speedrun races. I know it can really hurt some players due to connection or technology but a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere. I am absolutelky sure they all have each other on each others friends list and send a message like, hey man, if i vs you im in top 8 can you go easy? or mate, ur 56th, if i match you will you throw?
Its a shame but hey, this will also boost the channels in the sc2 list and would be really cool to find new p[layers looking to break out while we all watch their games, im flicking through the best ZPT most of the night, its amazing sc atm
I think streaming all your games is a bit overkill because 1) what if you're a good, aspiring pro player but you have a potato computer? A lot of people fall in this category. And 2) people see all your builds, your playstyle, your bad habits etc etc. I was thinking maybe they need to submit all their reps, but since qualification falls over a long period of time iirc so that may not be possible either.
There is no perfect method to prevent all cheaters. After all, if someone really wanted to cheat, they will find a way. The best thing we can do imo is an analysis of all qualified players and to see if they cheated to get there. One or two < 2 mins game here and there over a long period is fine (dc, doorbell, unexpected bathroom breaks happens), but if there is a pattern of trading or drastic unexpected hotkey change and different hotkey usage pattern, then Blizz just needs to swiftly ban that person and all/any accomplice. Then analyze the next person up on the ladder, if they are clean then give the spot to the next waitlisted player.
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On January 15 2019 02:19 ProTech wrote:
I think the real question here is: Why do we have random people on reddit/in-game discovering this kind of stuff? Why isn't BLIZZARD cleaning up their servers?
They don't take anything seriously these days, it's a joke.
Maybe because Blizzard is a big company who cant just accuse people as long as they dont have a real proof??????? They were probably already investigating it. Really dont know why you blame Blizzard here...your post is the joke here
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P.S.S I have checked the match history, seems I am totally wrong. I should apologize to both players.
I agree.
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United States33493 Posts
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On January 15 2019 07:20 fealx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2019 02:19 ProTech wrote:
I think the real question here is: Why do we have random people on reddit/in-game discovering this kind of stuff? Why isn't BLIZZARD cleaning up their servers?
They don't take anything seriously these days, it's a joke.
Maybe because Blizzard is a big company who cant just accuse people as long as they dont have a real proof??????? They were probably already investigating it. Really dont know why you blame Blizzard here...your post is the joke here
The community has been reporting things like this to blizzard for YEARS now. Do you know what happens? Those users are silenced and shamed. #freeAvilo
When SC2 went free to play Blizzard's emphasis went to the WCS circuit and off of their core playerbase. Game balance has suffered since. Blizzard teams, devs, CFO's have broken away from the company. The Blizzard we grew up with and fell for, is gone.
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United States33493 Posts
For reference: WCS Spring 2016 Win-Trading Ruling
DnS, MarineLord, and SpeCial were given around 2 month bans for win-trading during a ladder qualifier, so maybe we can expect the same (pending the result of the investigation)?
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On January 15 2019 09:08 Waxangel wrote:For reference: WCS Spring 2016 Win-Trading RulingDnS, MarineLord, and SpeCial were given around 2 month bans for win-trading during a ladder qualifier, so maybe we can expect the same (pending the result of the investigation)?
Punishments have a tendency to get harsher over time because people should know better and have seen others get punished but are still doing it. Also, given all the damage various forms of cheating have done to Starcraft over the years, and the precarious state of the esport in the era of the Activision CFO, a 2 month ban hardly seems enough, so maybe 4?
What would a 2 month ban even remove other than WCS Winter? Just IEM Katowice?
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/IW0zNul.jpg)
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/SMzoHrz.jpg)
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My F*cking Translation:
F*ck,I am so sleepy but can't fall asleep.
I fell nervous.
Ladder race is so thrilling
I you can't fall asleep, play on Korea server.
Play for fun.
Wait I have a good idea.
How about to absorb their MMR?
Log in a standby account?
Hahahaha
Hahahahahahahaha
Parting's account is just 6200MMR.
Can anyone borrow me an account?
Hurry.
Hurry.
Are there any account about 6000MMR?
I am going to absorb MMR.
How about Route?
Let me ask him,
Only Route have it.
It is seemed that play some account standby and they will be useful in crux moment.
What's his QQ?
Let me ask him.
I forgot his QQ ID.
And his WeChat.
F*ck it is necessary to remark.
This may be from Cyan's QQ talking group.
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/10gJh9X.png)
Translation:
Cyan's talking group has benn dissolved.
There are an old story in China:
Someone havd 15kg silver, he buried it in his yard.But he was afraid that thief would steal it, so he set a sign with "Here are no 15kg silver" written on.
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Are the other people in Cyan's talking group people we know? Or just random people?
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On January 15 2019 14:11 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Are the other people in Cyan's talking group people we know? Or just random people?
It is his fan club group. Which could make the things much much worse.
All previous breaches were players colluding with close friends to get easy points. THIS, if found true, is a more serious breach than collusion.
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It's disappointing.I also think ladder race is stupid,but this is not the excuse for cheating.
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Well I hope it gets cleared up and those guilty get a temp ban. It seems to have worked for dns, special and mlord since they haven't been banned since, I think.
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I am so embarrassed that I even spoke for Cyan before.
Hope Blizzard will give him a severe punishment if the accusation is true.
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This is unfortunate, but in a sense an inevitable risk in this Ladder Racing format
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Don't you think it is a stupid rule for qualifier from lader?
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I kinda like it, makes ladder more competitive and it makes banning unfair people possible apparently.
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Totally agree that decision about qualification for such a big event through ladder was incredibly stupid. Because even disqualifying players for match fixing on ladder would be even more ridiculous.
For casual players, ladder might become something they would avoid.
Or anyway maybe mom came in into the room and made him do his homework so he just quit starcraft  or whatever reason why one player might leave the game. Can argue of course, that these are pros etc, but if casual player reaches GM, then he can't leave the game when he wants? or what? I think best decision for Blizzard is just to note that you can't use ladder as qualification and maximum give a notice to players. Since apparently one player is not allowed to go for one build or another and leave game earlier than expected playing ladder and not televised games. And never login to play 1 game only.
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On January 15 2019 18:52 p1oneer wrote:Totally agree that decision about qualification for such a big event through ladder was incredibly stupid. Because even disqualifying players for match fixing on ladder would be even more ridiculous. For casual players, ladder might become something they would avoid. Or anyway maybe mom came in into the room and made him do his homework so he just quit starcraft or whatever reason why one player might leave the game. Can argue of course, that these are pros etc, but if casual player reaches GM, then he can't leave the game when he wants? or what? I think best decision for Blizzard is just to note that you can't use ladder as qualification and maximum give a notice to players. Since apparently one player is not allowed to go for one build or another and leave game earlier than expected playing ladder and not televised games. And never login to play 1 game only.
Ladder qualifier is only for like 3 days, all the rest of the time you can do whatever you want. And i don´t know, my mom never came into my room at 11.59pm to make me do my homework, aside from that are we not talking about 1 game where someone left early, we are talking about suspicious games from players that were playing way above their potential all of a sudden, left more games early against specific opponents etc.
Please do your homework before posting something like that.
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Angry kids telling others what to do hold your recommendations in your pants please.
My point was that to give a proper punishment is ridiculous for ladder games imo.
e-sports is there for many years, as guys mentioned, same was happening previously in other games (Blizzard games) too. Also there are practices that might be taken from real sports.
P.S. My last homework was already done like 15 years ago
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 15 2019 18:52 p1oneer wrote:Totally agree that decision about qualification for such a big event through ladder was incredibly stupid. Because even disqualifying players for match fixing on ladder would be even more ridiculous. For casual players, ladder might become something they would avoid. Or anyway maybe mom came in into the room and made him do his homework so he just quit starcraft or whatever reason why one player might leave the game. Can argue of course, that these are pros etc, but if casual player reaches GM, then he can't leave the game when he wants? or what? I think best decision for Blizzard is just to note that you can't use ladder as qualification and maximum give a notice to players. Since apparently one player is not allowed to go for one build or another and leave game earlier than expected playing ladder and not televised games. And never login to play 1 game only.
Ok, let s take it one at a time
1. No, ladder qualifier is not a stupid system. The fact that people are trying to cheat doesn't make it a stupid system. It could be criticized if there were cases when cheating went unnoticed until too late, or cheating was observed but no action taken.
2. How on earth would this make casual players avoid the ladder?
A. Casual players dont have 6k+ mmr to meet the competitors who have any chance of qualifying
B. Even if they did, it affects them in no way whatsoever, they just play normal game like they would always
C. If by some strange happenstance they happen to insta-leave a casual 6k+mmr ladder game which nets crucial points to someone who qualifies, it wouldn't get them in any trouble without other factors, as long as it can be explained normally, like "Look, my internet failed as the game started, I dont know my opponent, we have no connection with one another, my account activity is normal, same IP as always, it's one loss, coincidence"
3. If it was one game, as I just explained above, any number of plausible scenarios can be found and accepted. We here talk about:
A) a series of strange losses, including insta-leaves, and 2 minute losses in the last day of the qualifiers, including an instant-leave one in the last 2 minutes. Said insta-leave was the only game (win) of the qualifying player who snatched the last spot. If the game lasted 2 minutes or more, the game would not have counted towards the competition, and he would not have qualified
B) all the beneficiaries of these losses know each other and have something in common
C) The account that registered these losses has suspicious activity, a 500 MMR spike to begin with, different hotkey setup for the games in the period of time relevant for the qualifiers, and if these werent enough IPs and physical addresses can be checked by the organizers.
D) The owner of the account was investigated by the team he's in contract with, and was released immediately.
Saying ladder is stupid and shouldn't be used because people are trying to cheat and get caught is the same as saying depositing money in a bank is stupid, since some robbers tried to steal it and they were instantly caught by the security measures in place. We shouldnt deposit money in banks, because it incentives bank-robberies, and it's the bank's fault when the robbers get caught and punished.
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Assuming this is correct, in not very impressed with Cyan.
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Honestly I think his argument is not trying to apply to the case which is what you're trying to do. I think you would both agree on the fact the the case was pretty clear cut. But I think p1ioneer's view was more about all the possibilities of wrongdoing in general.
And on this part I have to agree, your arguments are flawed :
The fact that people are trying to cheat is a fact YOU HAVE TO INCLUDE in your reasoning, because people will try. Caricatural example : if you just ask one of the two players from a ladder match about their results instead of looking at data from ladder, you're making it unnecessarily unsafe.
The problem is indeed when a very high MMR player, who is not reasonably in contention for the ladder race, might be tempted to give an edge to someone because he prefers him, or because they just got secretly in touch and agreed on a monetary trade or anything, these are not possibilities you can just blow away from an organisation standpoint.
I like the cool aspects about the ladder race don't get me wrong, but even an example you took clearly shows that it can be bad : what would people say if someone actually took a clutch win for top 8 because of a disconnection ? It's not against the rule and it can be argued that it's part of all the ladder randomness, but is it what we truly wants ?
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On January 15 2019 19:57 Bignaked wrote:
Honestly I think his argument is not trying to apply to the case which is what you're trying to do. I think you would both agree on the fact the the case was pretty clear cut. But I think p1ioneer's view was more about all the possibilities of wrongdoing in general.
And on this part I have to agree, your arguments are flawed :
The fact that people are trying to cheat is a fact YOU HAVE TO INCLUDE in your reasoning, because people will try. Caricatural example : if you just ask one of the two players from a ladder match about their results instead of looking at data from ladder, you're making it unnecessarily unsafe.
The problem is indeed when a very high MMR player, who is not reasonably in contention for the ladder race, might be tempted to give an edge to someone because he prefers him, or because they just got secretly in touch and agreed on a monetary trade or anything, these are not possibilities you can just blow away from an organisation standpoint.
I like the cool aspects about the ladder race don't get me wrong, but even an example you took clearly shows that it can be bad : what would people say if someone actually took a clutch win for top 8 because of a disconnection ? It's not against the rule and it can be argued that it's part of all the ladder randomness, but is it what we truly wants ?
The thing is, in this very thread more elaborate cheating-attempts were referenced from the past, and those have been caught as well. The 2016 controversy, and TSL way back when....
Of course, ladder competition have all these complexities, which requires a lot of effort from the organizers to ensure a fair outcome, that's why most of the time the organizers choose Online qualifiers.
Now, people can very easily try and cheat in online qualifiers as well, by account sharing (better players helping out lower friends by playing on their account), using third party hacks, running the stream on another monitor if there isnt a significant delay applied, having a coach/assitant with you who s focusing on the minimap / supply-cap etc (granted, for 90%+ players this one would be more annoying than helpful, but it is a possible form of cheating). These things can be caught in very much the same way as ladder-games related cheats, by looking at replays, hotkey setups, and eventually IP's and other things.
The only plus element of randomness for the ladder is, that genuine disconnections net you wins/losses, while if it was an online qualifier, you could rule a re-match and problem solved. Now, even on ladder, this cause the problem if it's really a last hour loss, cuz you dont have time to make up for the lost points. For me, this unlikely scenario is an acceptable price to pay. If it happens, it happens, you cant eliminate randomness 100%. I recall Jaedong being eliminated from an important tournament because his mouse was acting up. He took the loss, threw away the mouse afterwards, and life went on.
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On January 15 2019 19:57 Bignaked wrote:
Honestly I think his argument is not trying to apply to the case which is what you're trying to do. I think you would both agree on the fact the the case was pretty clear cut. But I think p1ioneer's view was more about all the possibilities of wrongdoing in general.
And on this part I have to agree, your arguments are flawed :
The fact that people are trying to cheat is a fact YOU HAVE TO INCLUDE in your reasoning, because people will try. Caricatural example : if you just ask one of the two players from a ladder match about their results instead of looking at data from ladder, you're making it unnecessarily unsafe.
The problem is indeed when a very high MMR player, who is not reasonably in contention for the ladder race, might be tempted to give an edge to someone because he prefers him, or because they just got secretly in touch and agreed on a monetary trade or anything, these are not possibilities you can just blow away from an organisation standpoint.
I like the cool aspects about the ladder race don't get me wrong, but even an example you took clearly shows that it can be bad : what would people say if someone actually took a clutch win for top 8 because of a disconnection ? It's not against the rule and it can be argued that it's part of all the ladder randomness, but is it what we truly wants ?
This is just my opinion : I like the ladder qualifiers, and as far as i know there are quite a few players that like them, too. I think they are awesome and exciting, watching Lambos stream for the last hours of the qualifier was a lot of fun.
And i dont think it is right to give up on them because of :
A: Some players that think they are smarter than everyone else and don´t have to follow the rules and thus try to cheat.
B: Some "what if´s" like "what if there is a disconnection two minutes before the time runs out that benefits another player" or "what if someone has to leave the game for xy reasons one minute before the time runs out."
I understand everyone who does think the other way round and their arguments are not all invalid, but for me personally the pros are way heavier than the cons.
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It was said that cyan and jieshi did submit their reps to blz, not sure if its true or not, but we'll see anyway
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On January 15 2019 21:41 Howard_Kao wrote:
It was said that cyan and jieshi did submit their reps to blz, not sure if its true or not, but we'll see anyway
I doubt Blizz needs the players to submit their replays... it's an online game after all.
Really curious how this ends.
There are some valid points for and against ladder competition, which is a discussion in itself I guess. I personally don't mind it. Cheaters will always (find ways to) cheat, no matter what. Obviously this shows SC2 and e-sports in general in a really bad light (like the Tour de France after all those doping incidents) and should be punished harshly if proven
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I'm waiting for more in the future. Scripts, maphacks, ping issues and of course disconnects.
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If the accusations are true (and the evidence does look pretty damning), the only people to be angry/disappointed in are the players that made the decision to cheat. The system is fine and caught the foul play before it had any impact on the main event, which is more than we can say about some other tournaments. I just hope the punishment is firm enough to change the players' attitudes towards fair competition.
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Back in 2014-15, a popular indie Zerg streamer was offering coaching. The match history for their main account showed frequent 3AM-ish 1v1 matches with their alt/boosted account. Both were GM.
It looked very suspicious, but I couldn't figure out what "gain" there was to get from it. It would be a net neutral amount of ladder points earned. Is this done to keep 2 accounts for 1 person afloat in GM, and it's the match activity that's the goal (i.e. not about points)?
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...match throwing aside, why is TLO in the top 8 on NA? Well done and all that, but isn't he still German?
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On January 16 2019 05:41 BaneRiders wrote:...match throwing aside, why is TLO in the top 8 on NA? Well done and all that, but isn't he still German?
He lives in Canada now
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On January 16 2019 05:41 BaneRiders wrote:...match throwing aside, why is TLO in the top 8 on NA? Well done and all that, but isn't he still German?
he lives there with his girlfriend as has a proper visa which is in accordance to blizzards requirement.
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On January 14 2019 22:45 yht9657 wrote:
Never understand why instead of an open qualifier WCS would rather have this whole ladder-racing thing, GSL is just way superior in this aspect with no risk of this kind of bullshit happening.
Because offline qualifiers are costly for the league organizer and for the players. (The GSL qualifiers in practice covers the relatively small country of South Korea.)
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On January 16 2019 06:03 TBO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2019 05:41 BaneRiders wrote:...match throwing aside, why is TLO in the top 8 on NA? Well done and all that, but isn't he still German? he lives there with his girlfriend as has a proper visa which is in accordance to blizzards requirement.
Oh cool, I had no idea. It just goes to show the kind of trouble girlfriends can get you into!
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Why would you be so dumb to use a shared account to trade wins, and not only that but log in with the same IP you log into your main account with. You can't make it any easier to track this stuff. There are some pretty easy/cheap ways to get around both things to make it near impossible to detect using those methods, however if blizzard wanted to they could build a system that fingerprinted every account based on playstyle/keymappings to allow them to narrow their search to investigate each season for multiple accounts and possible abuse. In current form using ladder for qualifications isn't the best idea and based on how blizzard worded how they caught these guys, easily abusable by anyone with half a brain.
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Blizz's official statement doesn't say they caught it based on identical IPs right?
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EPT
