It’s been a great year for StarCraft II. After the epic BlizzCon finals, we were treated to one of the most exciting HomeStory Cups to date, which showcased the new balance patch just a few days after its release. Congratulations to Serral for winning HSC XVIII and also to Future for his impressive performance at Cheeseadelphia 8! On our end, we’ve been continuing to monitor tournaments and gather feedback from the community forums and pros since the new patch was released. As 2018 comes to a close, we’d like to unpack the feedback we’ve been receiving and share our thoughts on the state of the game.
TvT As Cyclones now largely resemble their pre-3.8 patch state, TvT early-game has also functionally reverted back to its pre-3.8 patch state. We’re seeing slightly more Reaper proxies compared to the time frame right before 3.8 patch, however. Feedback we’ve received suggests that this may be because players have learned to transition more safely from proxy builds. Or it could be that aggressive builds tend to win out in the early stages after a balance patch and players simply need more time to adapt. Overall, we’ve received reports that early-game TvT has become more varied, and we’re happy with how it’s developing.
ZvZ We’ve received feedback that Mutalisk-based strategies have become more potent due to a combination of various Zerg changes to the Queen, Roach, Hydralisk, Creep Tumors, and Nydus Networks. We’ll be carefully watching this matchup’s mid-game compositions to see if Mutalisk play becomes too oppressive.
PvP Because of the Sentry’s Hallucination cost reduction, players are now able to open Stargate and choose their first Stargate unit based on their Hallucination scout. This effectively condenses the pre-4.7.1 Phoenix and Oracle openers into a single catchall Stargate opener. This new opener can diverge into two separate paths, which can cover each other’s weaknesses. As a result, we’re seeing more Stargate openers and Phoenix mirrors than usual.
Thus, we’re considering tweaks to either Hallucination or Stargate units that would add risk to blindly opening Stargate in PvP. We’re also considering changes that would allow players to transition out of Phoenix mirrors in the case of Stargate vs. Stargate openers.
TvZ TvZ has been the matchup where we’ve seen the most change. We’re glad to see more Widow Mine-based play, which can lead to very back-and-forth, action-packed games. We’ve also been seeing a lot of interesting development in mech compositions with increased use of Cyclones, speed Banshees, and Battlecruisers. This matchup has been consistently evolving and we’re witnessing something new every week.
TvP In TvP, while we’ve received feedback that Terran proxies are weaker than before, we still see a significant number of proxies in tournament play. Some Protoss players have commented that it can be difficult to discern between the various all-ins and fake all-ins while some Terrans have indicated that proxy play feels like the safest option to secure a low ground expansion against fast Adepts. We’re considering attacking this issue from two angles, both by weakening proxy openers and making macro openers more robust.
With regards to the mid-game, we’ve heard that TvP is slightly easier for Terrans now due to the Disruptor change. As for late-game, we’re keeping a close eye on the strength of Tempests, which we’re getting mixed feedback about. Since one of our overarching goals for the end-of-year patch was to bring more balance to the late-game of all matchups, we’ll keep looking at potential future changes to achieve this, if necessary. At the same time, however—partially because of the prominence of Terran proxies—our sample size of late-game TvP is not as large as we’d like.
ZvP We’ve received feedback that it’s now easier for Protoss to survive Zerg onslaughts in the mid-game. In the shift to late-game, Zergs have responded positively to Vipers being able to survive Feedback. On the Protoss side, players have been mixing up their late-game compositions and experimenting with new combinations of Void Rays, Carriers, and Tempests. While we feel these are all already positive changes, we’d still like to see more Robotics Bay-level units in Protoss compositions.
Additional Thoughts Outside of anything matchup-specific, there are a few other units and upgrades that we haven’t seen much of lately, such as Thors, Anabolic Synthesis, and Nydus Networks. Though a few of these may just need more time for players to figure out, we might give them an extra boost in a future patch.
As a whole, we continue to feel that it’s natural for more aggressive strategies to be stronger following a major balance patch because players will need time to explore refined responses to these strategies.
That’s it from us! Now, it’s your turn to let us know your thoughts. But before we leave, we wanted to wish Happy Holidays and a wonderful New Year from everyone on the balance team. See you all next year!
Seems reasonable. Sounds like the balance team is at least on the ball about following the meta (which hasn't always been the case). Let's see what changes they make out of it.
I really like the new patch so far. On my skill level (m3), ZvT has become very versatile and fun. Currently, I'm mostly struggling against some weird 3 base allins/timings. BCs are neat, but so far, I mostly win against players who decide to go for the early BC harass. In the late game, they need tons of backup, because corruptors still murder them. (as it should be) ZvP is a bit odd, it's still revolving around timing attacks or the super late game with nothing in between, but that may be due to my macro oriented style. ZvZ is in a great state. Roaches still reign supreme, but muta play has become a bit more viable. If a ZvZ game goes past roach/rav/hydra, you're in for a treat every fucking time. Lurkers, ultras, vipers, brood lords, you name it. Back in WoL I used to hate ZvZ, now it's my favourite matchup.
"partially because of the prominence of Terran proxies—our sample size of late-game TvP is not as large as we’d like."
I get what they are saying, but at the same time I feel like they are completely missing the point of why no terran wants to touch lategame with a 10 foot pole, be it bio or mech. Other than that their goals are very good, we'll see how they execute them.
On December 22 2018 14:34 Woosixion wrote: roaches need a late game buff, like +3 armor when under 50% health like in the campaign. P/T has so many ways to counter em its laughable
Can we get a Templar Archives level upgrade for Stalkers to get +1 range or somehow make them lategame viable? The other race's T1 units still play some meaningful role, or have a significantly better replacement (replace roaches with ravagers/lurkers, marine/marauder just good all game). But for Protoss, if you're making stalkers after the 13-14 minute mark, it probably means you fucked up. But archons just don't have the ground-to-air flexibility needed, you can't just replace stalkers with archons in late game. Just for having basic flexible composition in the mid-to-late game, you *have* to make an expensive air transition, even if the enemy has just a handful of air units.
As Zerg: counter carriers/BCs with corruptors OR ground army + infestor As Terran: counter carrier/broods with vikings OR marine/hellbat/tank + thors, or cyclones, or widow mines or whatever... As Protoss: counter air with tempests OR ... die making stalkers.
Storm is not a good anti air counter unless your opponent is AFK. I get that skytoss is really strong, and has good counters, but the lack of optionality just feels dumb. On the other hand, toss has 4 different ways to do AOE ground damage, which feels kinda redundant but having different viable options allows players to manifest their style better.
On December 22 2018 17:37 MockHamill wrote: It is surprising that they did not nerf Tempest range.
What Terran unit can even reach kiting Tempest with aoe support?
For defense thors can zone small number of tempests even with 0/0 upgrades and outright annihilate them with high upgrades + emp. and while you are usually gonna be at a numerical disadvantage they can be repaired by nearby scvs if you see it coming. Its important to remember that the tempest ground attack range is MUCH smaller than their air one and does not get a bonus vs massive.
The problem is they are completely awful for anything offensive, from a mobility perspective and the fact that shield batteries are a thing. They would need like 2 more range on the high impact mode to be viable in that role but that doesn't really fix the core issue which is storm basically negating your viking count on any large scale engagement.
On December 22 2018 17:37 MockHamill wrote: It is surprising that they did not nerf Tempest range.
What Terran unit can even reach kiting Tempest with aoe support?
Battlecruisers teleporting on top of tempests spells their end usually, even with the speed buff because they die even faster now (the ones left over after Yamato barrage)
On December 22 2018 14:34 Woosixion wrote: roaches need a late game buff, like +3 armor when under 50% health like in the campaign. P/T has so many ways to counter em its laughable
marines need a late game buff, like more hp and more range like in the campaign. Z/P has so many ways to counter em its laughable.
another poor unit got power creep'd.it's easier to defend and harrass vs terran in late game when going ultras and this is the biggest advantage over going brood lords but seems like zerg players are doing well by yolo'ing one billion banelings into terran's planetary fortress and bane,ling,hydra are doing thier defending job just fine. power creeping works in MOBA game and could work in modern RTS game if done correctly
excited about possibly softening Stargate play in PvP. it's a mirror, there's nothing "broken" about it, but playing anything but phoenix against a phoenix opponent has been hell for a long time, and double phoenix games are not fun to play either.
i've personally been enjoying the game more than ever this patch. been facing a wide array of diverse playstyles which makes the game way more interesting and fun to me.
nydus are currently only used as allin strategy. there is one strategy with roach queens nydus that is specifically designed to hardcounter the bc build in tvz, if unscouted it is a free win in that certain situation, if scouted early enough and with the right adapation by the terran it becomes a free win for terran.
We do see nydus often, but it is only used as a gimmicky coinflip.
We dont see nydus in mid/lategame for mobility because while it can be really rewarding to pull it off, it takes a lot of attention for what it really gives you ( you can use your attention in other ways and get way more out of it, and attention is limited) and brings risks. In my personal experience this is mostly because nydus doesnt consider the supply cost of the units that are loaded in/out. if you have zerglings in your lategame army and want to send them through a nydus it becomes a complete waste of time as it takes the same time to load in lings as it does with ultras.
I would like to see a change to that. It should be a change that doesnt change the strength of nydus allins.
-maybe adept the current load in/out speed to match units with 2 supply cost. and scale other units load in/out speed to their supply.
-another option would be an upgrade from hive that increases loading speed. but this would more difficult to balance since it could easily turn into something way too strong that has like an extreme warpprism effect (forcing enemy units somewhere without an actual commitment)
I think that TvP is in a much worse state than blizzard seems to acknowledge. The fact that Terrans best option in 90% of scenarios is to allin is just dumb. Protoss late game is oppressively strong so the best counter is for Terran to go allin every single game leading to a terrible match up. I think all the other match ups are in a good spot overall zvt has so much going on right now that all the games feel fresh and interesting but I think tvp needs looking at Terran needs better avenues to win in the mid and late game and proxies need to go, I'm worried though that bliz will continue to chip away at proxy play without doing anything to curb protoss's absurd late game strength..
No word about swarmhosts, it's been 5+ "updates" where they refuse to acknowledge and address one of the most idiotic units in the game.
Maybe if everyone collectively calls them out on this they will finally fix it? I can't take their updates seriously.
They also have no clue what they are talking about for TvP, the match-up has been heavily Protoss favored and became even more Protoss favored after the cyclone changes. 3 nexus lets Protoss economy be out of control with chronoboost. Everything they wrote about "all-ins being hard to decipher" is the exact opposite - it's hard for Terran to figure out the all-ins, not the Protoss player.
Let's not even mention tempests and how ridiculous these things need a hotfix.
The devs also mention "hey no one is using thors?" I wonder why. They nerfed the armor by 1, left swarmhosts in their current state for 2+ yrs, and made tempests the most insane unit in the game while also reducing it's supply.
I take nothing Blizzard writes or posts about SC2 seriously until they fix swarmhosts.
The only thing they remotely even got correct in their terrible balance post, is about PvP being mass phoenix every game. It's obvious whoever writes these has a good knowledge of Protoss but is very Protoss biased.
"I think tempest might be too strong" oh really, quite the detective Mr. Sherlock balance designer. "People aren't building thors" oh really, maybe stop nerfing mech every patch and fix swarmhosts. "Terran all-ins are hard to figure out" oh really, you made cyclones unusable, Terran has no allins anymore lol
Almost every single Terran player hates the cyclone being reverted to it's original values. Why? Because it has 120 health, that's less health than a marauder....yeah...revert the cyclone change back to the 2nd version. I have no clue why they thought this was a good idea. Either that or give it more health appropriate to it's expensive cost. Everyone knows 120 health is horseshit for a 3 supply factory unit that cost 100 gas.
Less. Health. Than. A. Marauder. The blizzcon update was a joke for Terran.
Almost every single Terran player hates the cyclone being reverted to it's original values. Why? Because it has 120 health, that's less health than a marauder....yeah...revert the cyclone change back to the 2nd version. I have no clue why they thought this was a good idea. Either that or give it more health appropriate to it's expensive cost. Everyone knows 120 health is horseshit for a 3 supply factory unit that cost 100 gas.
Less. Health. Than. A. Marauder. The blizzcon update was a joke for Terran.
I think Avilo has a point there. Marauder health should be tuned down a notch, to more clearly reflect its place in the Terran arsenal.
Problem with Stargate in PVP is not purely related to scouting, problem is Stargate is always the best opener in PVP. Also it is paired usually with adept openings which also adds high pressure before stargate units come out.
This is limiting options of any non Stargate build and you are basicly accepting to be defensive which gives a stargate player way 2 much space to run away with the game, and PVP is an extreme snowball matchup.
Sadly it is very hard 2 adust any of the units or build times etc because of the other matchups in the game.
Something like you did for Zerg spores vs Muta might be the only solution to stop Stargate dominated PVP.
But I know Blizzard stated at some point you do not like to make 1 matchup specific changes to units&buildings, I personally totally agree with this but its looking hard to find solutions at the moment.
On December 23 2018 07:15 raXNT wrote: Problem with Stargate in PVP is not purely related to scouting, problem is Stargate is always the best opener in PVP. Also it is paired usually with adept openings which also adds high pressure before stargate units come out.
This is limiting options of any non Stargate build and you are basicly accepting to be defensive which gives a stargate player way 2 much space to run away with the game, and PVP is an extreme snowball matchup.
Sadly it is very hard 2 adust any of the units or build times etc because of the other matchups in the game.
Something like you did for Zerg spores vs Muta might be the only solution to stop Stargate dominated PVP.
But I know Blizzard stated at some point you do not like to make 1 matchup specific changes to units&buildings, I personally totally agree with this but its looking hard to find solutions at the moment.
What if Stalkers did bonus damage to shields? (say double the damage as long as there are shields, and then you can tweak the shield to health of a pheonix oracle...). Wouldn't it make blink quite a hard counter to SG, which makes SG openers not that strong? Going SG you must go for a robo if you see twilight as DTs are also an option, so stalkers that are better at countering phoenix and oracles can be quite of a difference to the strength of SG openers.
On December 23 2018 07:15 raXNT wrote: Problem with Stargate in PVP is not purely related to scouting, problem is Stargate is always the best opener in PVP. Also it is paired usually with adept openings which also adds high pressure before stargate units come out.
This is limiting options of any non Stargate build and you are basicly accepting to be defensive which gives a stargate player way 2 much space to run away with the game, and PVP is an extreme snowball matchup.
Sadly it is very hard 2 adust any of the units or build times etc because of the other matchups in the game.
Something like you did for Zerg spores vs Muta might be the only solution to stop Stargate dominated PVP.
But I know Blizzard stated at some point you do not like to make 1 matchup specific changes to units&buildings, I personally totally agree with this but its looking hard to find solutions at the moment.
What if Stalkers did bonus damage to shields? (say double the damage as long as there are shields, and then you can tweak the shield to health of a pheonix oracle...). Wouldn't it make blink quite a hard counter to SG, which makes SG openers not that strong? Going SG you must go for a robo if you see twilight as DTs are also an option, so stalkers that are better at countering phoenix and oracles can be quite of a difference to the strength of SG openers.
Oracle can stop DT rushes easily, is it quite easy to read possible DT openings and react to it and if DT opening does no damage it's hard to stay level in the game. Shield Batteries with units on hold position now also makes it easier to hold DT rushes and give time for Oracles to come out.
Changing any units would have too much of an impact on other MU's and is very risky in my opinion.
On December 23 2018 07:15 raXNT wrote: Problem with Stargate in PVP is not purely related to scouting, problem is Stargate is always the best opener in PVP. Also it is paired usually with adept openings which also adds high pressure before stargate units come out.
This is limiting options of any non Stargate build and you are basicly accepting to be defensive which gives a stargate player way 2 much space to run away with the game, and PVP is an extreme snowball matchup.
Sadly it is very hard 2 adust any of the units or build times etc because of the other matchups in the game.
Something like you did for Zerg spores vs Muta might be the only solution to stop Stargate dominated PVP.
But I know Blizzard stated at some point you do not like to make 1 matchup specific changes to units&buildings, I personally totally agree with this but its looking hard to find solutions at the moment.
What if Stalkers did bonus damage to shields? (say double the damage as long as there are shields, and then you can tweak the shield to health of a pheonix oracle...). Wouldn't it make blink quite a hard counter to SG, which makes SG openers not that strong? Going SG you must go for a robo if you see twilight as DTs are also an option, so stalkers that are better at countering phoenix and oracles can be quite of a difference to the strength of SG openers.
I think that's a bit too complicated. A better solution would be to give stalkers a damage bonus versus light air units. There are only 6 units in the game that fit that criteria: the phoenix, the oracle, the observer, the mutalisk, the banshee, and the raven. I can't see most protoss players being sad about oracles being a bigger risk in PvP, given how prominent proxy oracles still sometimes are. In the cases of the banshee and the raven, it'd probably be fine to remove the light tag, since from what I can tell, the only unit in the game that does bonus damage currently to light air units is the phoenix, and in either case, if phoenixes are attacking a banshee or a raven, it's probably dead anyway. This would mitigate stalkers potentially being too good at defending against banshees. Same deal with the observer, if they get sniped too easily just remove the light tag.
This light air damage bonus would accomplish two things: it would allow another option in dealing with these stupid double stargate phoenix openings (It currently takes a shocking number of stalker shots to kill a single phoenix. It's very much akin to how protoss used to fair versus mutalisks in HOTS before they added the phoenix range spell where killing the mass mutalisks required the person attacking to screw up since the defender could never catch them and you could never actually kill any of the mutas, just damage them). It also would potentially finally open the door, when combined with the new hallucination buff, for there to be a way to have a safe, non-stargate opening in PvZ since protoss could finally know that if the zerg switches to mass muta or does a fake with few mutalisks (which is just as dangerous since if you don't prepare for mutas and they go muta, you usually lose), it could be dealt with without having to throw down multiple stargates and potentially a fleet beacon just to survive.
It doesn't have to be a big damage bonus, just enough to make it so going mass phoenix against blink is more of a risk since it would take fewer shots to kill a phoenix.
On December 23 2018 06:48 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: swarmhosts are fine dude
Sometimes i feel like the entire community basically just stopped giving a fuck years ago when i read posts like yours.
Balance wise they're fine.
Design wise - at least a quarter of units is bad. So what, look at the news. Blizzard is being destroyed by Activision, there won't be any redesign. EVER. Deal with it.
proxy play feels like the safest option to secure a low ground expansion against fast Adepts. We’re considering attacking this issue from two angles, both by weakening proxy openers and making macro openers more robust.
i can see them reducing the build time of the reactor for this ( might give helion opening too much strength though). But i can't see a way to nerf proxies other than " your first barack can't be build outside of your base"
Any thoughts ?
edit : production facilities need to be near a CC or a supply depot to be build ( with a large radius like 30-40 yards = a whole base)
proxy play feels like the safest option to secure a low ground expansion against fast Adepts. We’re considering attacking this issue from two angles, both by weakening proxy openers and making macro openers more robust.
i can see them reducing the build time of the reactor for this ( might give helion opening to much strength though). But i can't see a way to nerf proxies other than " your first barack can't be build outside of your base"
Any thoughts ?
Is there a weird ass world where we give workers bigger vision radius to make proxy less luck base? (In the sense that if you scout the right way at least you have less of chance to miss the proxy anyway) Seems like a shitty way to go about it, but I can't see a lot of way to nerf it either.
Edit: or bring back the MSC, how could that go wrong.
On December 22 2018 13:58 FataLe wrote: I love how comprehensive this new balance team is.
Ya the team has been really good on feedback, happy holidays to them too if they read this!
Swarmhosts are pretty absurd vs mech, the only reason they are currently not as oppressive is because BC opening became a thing after the design patch.
If blizzard somehow nerfs BC opening in TvZ, swarmhosts/ravager (or SH/hydra cause of new cyclone) will completely shut down mech again just like it did before.
Its not just avilos opinion, everyone high level terran knows that. You can literally ask any terran pro player and they will tell you this. The difference is simply that most pros dont openly speak about balance, cause the community is more toxic than open minded when it comes to balance discussions.
Its easier to hate on someone like avilo than actually coming up with a valid counter argument.
On December 23 2018 11:10 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Swarmhosts are pretty absurd vs mech, the only reason they are currently not as oppressive is because BC opening became a thing after the design patch.
If blizzard somehow nerfs BC opening in TvZ, swarmhosts/ravager (or SH/hydra cause of new cyclone) will completely shut down mech again just like it did before.
Its not just avilos opinion, everyone high level terran knows that. You can literally ask any terran pro player and they will tell you this. The difference is simply that most pros dont openly speak about balance, cause the community is more toxic than open minded when it comes to balance discussions.
Its easier to hate on someone like avilo than actually coming up with a valid counter argument.
yeah sure, pro players NEVER talk about balance, stuff like whining over balance never happens there, maybe your are mistaking them for casters (or e-sport-personalities as some are known), who only say there opinion on balance after it was changed (prior to that its always fine). but pros are complaining all the time...
and there are countless posts here that tell you how you can handle SW pretty well, if you honestly think that nobody does, than i can't help you really i think. (in short use hellions or land somthing in the path of the locust, then counterattack) i honestly don't enjoy playing against SW that much, but i still have decent winrate against them, and there are worse things to play against (turtle mech beeing way up there)
just because "turtle harder" isn't the answer doesn't mean that you can't handle them rather well since SW are dead supply most of the time.
and at this point i am starting to think, that they just don't change SW because they fear that avilo would be unemployed after that
i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
On December 23 2018 17:45 uummpaa wrote: i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
I think both Protoss and Zerg have an easier time to transition from one composition to another depending how the game goes.
Transitioning from mech to bio (or vice versa) is much harder because of 1) Separate upgrades 2) Separate production facilities 3) Strengths that can not been combined.
Bio is strong in mobility. If you add bio to your mech you do not get the advantage of bio since your mech units slow down your bio units.
Also Hellbats are much better at protecting your tanks, bio often dies from splash damage if they try to protect tanks.
Basically mech and bio does not really work when combined (except for 1 or 2-base all-ins).
On December 23 2018 17:45 uummpaa wrote: i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
Do you really think terrans don't start mixing 0/0 Marines into their mech army because they say "it's not part of the BO, period"?
On December 23 2018 17:45 uummpaa wrote: i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
Do you really think terrans don't start mixing 0/0 Marines into their mech army because they say "it's not part of the BO, period"?
yeah sure, and nobody uses a reaper and such,
i think most people know how i mean it, but if it makes you happy to be so picky feel free to continue in doing so....
On December 23 2018 17:45 uummpaa wrote: i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
I think both Protoss and Zerg have an easier time to transition from one composition to another depending how the game goes.
Transitioning from mech to bio (or vice versa) is much harder because of 1) Separate upgrades 2) Separate production facilities 3) Strengths that can not been combined.
Bio is strong in mobility. If you add bio to your mech you do not get the advantage of bio since your mech units slow down your bio units.
Also Hellbats are much better at protecting your tanks, bio often dies from splash damage if they try to protect tanks.
Basically mech and bio does not really work when combined (except for 1 or 2-base all-ins).
sorry but marine/tank and marine/mines aren't allins all the time, or at least at my shitty level of play they aren't
and early mech into bio is a thing that existed at least for a while, but i'm not at all familar with the current meta right now, so maybe that's not a thing anymore.
my question was aimed more at the concept of mech in general, and i think yout first pooints are pretty interesting as to why it is even such a thing
On December 23 2018 17:45 uummpaa wrote: i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
Do you really think terrans don't start mixing 0/0 Marines into their mech army because they say "it's not part of the BO, period"?
yeah sure, and nobody uses a reaper and such,
i think most people know how i mean it, but if it makes you happy to be so picky feel free to continue in doing so....
I actually don't know how you mean it if you don't mean it that way. Wasn't your question why mech players deliberately ignore barrack units? No upgrades is the answer to that.
When Zergs go Ling bane muta they also deliberately ignore Roach warren and Hydra den for the same reason - upgrades. Protoss doesn't have this because all their ground units share the same upgrades.
On December 23 2018 17:45 uummpaa wrote: i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
Do you really think terrans don't start mixing 0/0 Marines into their mech army because they say "it's not part of the BO, period"?
yeah sure, and nobody uses a reaper and such,
i think most people know how i mean it, but if it makes you happy to be so picky feel free to continue in doing so....
I actually don't know how you mean it if you don't mean it that way. Wasn't your question why mech players deliberately ignore barrack units? No upgrades is the answer to that.
When Zergs go Ling bane muta they also deliberately ignore Roach warren and Hydra den for the same reason - upgrades. Protoss doesn't have this because all their ground units share the same upgrades.
unless you are Maru and you go all the units vs Gumiho
On December 23 2018 11:10 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Swarmhosts are pretty absurd vs mech, the only reason they are currently not as oppressive is because BC opening became a thing after the design patch.
If blizzard somehow nerfs BC opening in TvZ, swarmhosts/ravager (or SH/hydra cause of new cyclone) will completely shut down mech again just like it did before.
Its not just avilos opinion, everyone high level terran knows that. You can literally ask any terran pro player and they will tell you this. The difference is simply that most pros dont openly speak about balance, cause the community is more toxic than open minded when it comes to balance discussions.
Its easier to hate on someone like avilo than actually coming up with a valid counter argument.
the burden of proof is on you and avilo. show me a post-patch replay / VOD of a pro terran utilizing speed-mech and losing to ravager / swarm-host or hydra / swarm-host.
you boys live in an alternative universe where ravagers are unstoppable... a world where swarm-host contains still exist and cyclones have 1hp.
the fact is, your opinion about swarm hosts are fringe. you are in the minority. most terrans prefer the new cyclone and are having great success with it. the majority of meching terrans have embraced the cyclone-based speed-mech style. you and avilo, on the other hand, believe that tanks should be the be-all and end-all of mech vZ. you stubbornly go mass tanks every game and you lose to an antiquated anti-tank composition.
ravager / swarm-host is literally THE worst composition a zerg can choose against post-patch speed-mech. the meta at pro KR level is ling / bane / hydra / infestor.
On December 23 2018 18:06 uummpaa wrote: my question was aimed more at the concept of mech in general, and i think yout first pooints are pretty interesting as to why it is even such a thing
You have to understand is not randomly, Blizzard itself designed terran around the 2 playstyles being somewhat independent of themselves and has continued to do so, for example: - 2 different mineral only units, 1 for bio and 1 for mech(opposed to 1 per race for Z and P) - Unit upgrades tied to production facility, (ie: CS and stim vs BF and Magfield) making distinct production based styles. - Attack/armor upgrades tied to style (in HotS they were only 2 mech upgrades but they splitted attack to make mech more ground based)
If you see the changes Blizz has maid their vision is 2 main ground styles, bio and mech, with air being support for both. Even so now mech has become 2 different styles, battle mech (hellion/ciclones/banshee) and traditional mech (hellbat/tank/thor/vinking)
On December 23 2018 11:10 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Swarmhosts are pretty absurd vs mech, the only reason they are currently not as oppressive is because BC opening became a thing after the design patch.
If blizzard somehow nerfs BC opening in TvZ, swarmhosts/ravager (or SH/hydra cause of new cyclone) will completely shut down mech again just like it did before.
Its not just avilos opinion, everyone high level terran knows that. You can literally ask any terran pro player and they will tell you this. The difference is simply that most pros dont openly speak about balance, cause the community is more toxic than open minded when it comes to balance discussions.
Its easier to hate on someone like avilo than actually coming up with a valid counter argument.
the burden of proof is on you and avilo. show me a post-patch replay / VOD of a pro terran utilizing speed-mech and losing to ravager / swarm-host or hydra / swarm-host.
you boys live in an alternative universe where ravagers are unstoppable... a world where swarm-host contains still exist and cyclones have 1hp.
the fact is, your opinion about swarm hosts are fringe. you are in the minority. most terrans prefer the new cyclone and are having great success with it. the majority of meching terrans have embraced the cyclone-based speed-mech style. you and avilo, on the other hand, believe that tanks should be the be-all and end-all of mech vZ. you stubbornly go mass tanks every game and you lose to an antiquated anti-tank composition.
ravager / swarm-host is literally THE worst composition a zerg can choose against post-patch speed-mech. the meta at pro KR level is ling / bane / hydra / infestor.
like i said in my OP, i think the current BC is the reason why "battlemech" is a thing now, i much prefer the current cyclone over the old one, but i dont think the current cyclone alone is the reason for swarmhosts being weaker vs mech.
Imo its the BC opening that allows terran players to get into cyclone/hellion vs zerg. I think if you would take away the strength of BC openings vs zerg, battlemech would not be a thing anymore and then the old standard mech vs swarmhosts/.../... would make a return.
Zergs already adjusted their playstyle vs BCs and especially cyclones. Like you said infestors are a great response to both of those units.
People look at battlemech now and think "wow so dynamic etc". But if you open up with aynthing else than BC, this style simply doesnt work out that well and i dont know if the matchup should be "open up with BC or play bio".
If the goal is strategic diversity, then the patch hasn't reached his goal yet.
Obviously this is just speculation, im looking forward to how things will turn out, but all i can hope for is that swarmhosts somehow stay out of meta cause that unit is just depressing.
On December 23 2018 11:10 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Swarmhosts are pretty absurd vs mech, the only reason they are currently not as oppressive is because BC opening became a thing after the design patch.
If blizzard somehow nerfs BC opening in TvZ, swarmhosts/ravager (or SH/hydra cause of new cyclone) will completely shut down mech again just like it did before.
Its not just avilos opinion, everyone high level terran knows that. You can literally ask any terran pro player and they will tell you this. The difference is simply that most pros dont openly speak about balance, cause the community is more toxic than open minded when it comes to balance discussions.
Its easier to hate on someone like avilo than actually coming up with a valid counter argument.
yeah sure, pro players NEVER talk about balance, stuff like whining over balance never happens there, maybe your are mistaking them for casters (or e-sport-personalities as some are known), who only say there opinion on balance after it was changed (prior to that its always fine). but pros are complaining all the time...
and there are countless posts here that tell you how you can handle SW pretty well, if you honestly think that nobody does, than i can't help you really i think. (in short use hellions or land somthing in the path of the locust, then counterattack) i honestly don't enjoy playing against SW that much, but i still have decent winrate against them, and there are worse things to play against (turtle mech beeing way up there)
just because "turtle harder" isn't the answer doesn't mean that you can't handle them rather well since SW are dead supply most of the time.
and at this point i am starting to think, that they just don't change SW because they fear that avilo would be unemployed after that
If this is your response to "SW are overpowered" then you probably don't play against SW, you build them. Everyone knows how to best deal with swarm hosts, the problem is that flanking swarm hosts is impossible to do reliably. You just have to hold out until the zerg player makes a blunder. And that blunder won't even cost him the game because of injects.
On December 23 2018 11:10 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Swarmhosts are pretty absurd vs mech, the only reason they are currently not as oppressive is because BC opening became a thing after the design patch.
If blizzard somehow nerfs BC opening in TvZ, swarmhosts/ravager (or SH/hydra cause of new cyclone) will completely shut down mech again just like it did before.
Its not just avilos opinion, everyone high level terran knows that. You can literally ask any terran pro player and they will tell you this. The difference is simply that most pros dont openly speak about balance, cause the community is more toxic than open minded when it comes to balance discussions.
Its easier to hate on someone like avilo than actually coming up with a valid counter argument.
yeah sure, pro players NEVER talk about balance, stuff like whining over balance never happens there, maybe your are mistaking them for casters (or e-sport-personalities as some are known), who only say there opinion on balance after it was changed (prior to that its always fine). but pros are complaining all the time...
and there are countless posts here that tell you how you can handle SW pretty well, if you honestly think that nobody does, than i can't help you really i think. (in short use hellions or land somthing in the path of the locust, then counterattack) i honestly don't enjoy playing against SW that much, but i still have decent winrate against them, and there are worse things to play against (turtle mech beeing way up there)
just because "turtle harder" isn't the answer doesn't mean that you can't handle them rather well since SW are dead supply most of the time.
and at this point i am starting to think, that they just don't change SW because they fear that avilo would be unemployed after that
If this is your response to "SW are overpowered" then you probably don't play against SW, you build them. Everyone knows how to best deal with swarm hosts, the problem is that flanking swarm hosts is impossible to do reliably. You just have to hold out until the zerg player makes a blunder. And that blunder won't even cost him the game because of injects.
Do you play against SH, given that you are speaking like you knew better?
On December 23 2018 11:10 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Swarmhosts are pretty absurd vs mech, the only reason they are currently not as oppressive is because BC opening became a thing after the design patch.
If blizzard somehow nerfs BC opening in TvZ, swarmhosts/ravager (or SH/hydra cause of new cyclone) will completely shut down mech again just like it did before.
Its not just avilos opinion, everyone high level terran knows that. You can literally ask any terran pro player and they will tell you this. The difference is simply that most pros dont openly speak about balance, cause the community is more toxic than open minded when it comes to balance discussions.
Its easier to hate on someone like avilo than actually coming up with a valid counter argument.
yeah sure, pro players NEVER talk about balance, stuff like whining over balance never happens there, maybe your are mistaking them for casters (or e-sport-personalities as some are known), who only say there opinion on balance after it was changed (prior to that its always fine). but pros are complaining all the time...
and there are countless posts here that tell you how you can handle SW pretty well, if you honestly think that nobody does, than i can't help you really i think. (in short use hellions or land somthing in the path of the locust, then counterattack) i honestly don't enjoy playing against SW that much, but i still have decent winrate against them, and there are worse things to play against (turtle mech beeing way up there)
just because "turtle harder" isn't the answer doesn't mean that you can't handle them rather well since SW are dead supply most of the time.
and at this point i am starting to think, that they just don't change SW because they fear that avilo would be unemployed after that
If this is your response to "SW are overpowered" then you probably don't play against SW, you build them. Everyone knows how to best deal with swarm hosts, the problem is that flanking swarm hosts is impossible to do reliably. You just have to hold out until the zerg player makes a blunder. And that blunder won't even cost him the game because of injects.
maybe, just maybe you can attack the base of the zerg instead, or the rest of the army, just a suggestion
On December 23 2018 17:45 uummpaa wrote: i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
Protoss robotics units share upgrades with gateway units for example, bio and mech have seperate upgrades. This makes it so if you're going mech you are very heavily dicentivized (it's just not viable at all) to just decide to make a tech switch to bio suddenly because you would need a TON of things you dont have such as multiple barracks too, zerg for example can tech switch much more easily because you just need the tech building and then your units all come out from the same larvae, i am aware not all protoss and zerg units share upgrades but it's less restrictive than for terran imo, and protoss has chronoboost to help there too.
You just can't afford to get 2 engi bay upgrades going and 2 armory upgrades going while also being able to afford having so many production buildings and actually making anything out of them. So you have to make a choice if you're going bio or mech. You can go marine tank but then usually youre not really prioritizing mech upgrades at all. And obviously bio/mines don't need upgrades at all to work since they do spell damage and who cares about trying to make your mines tankier with the armor upgrade, lol.
On December 22 2018 14:34 Woosixion wrote: roaches need a late game buff, like +3 armor when under 50% health like in the campaign. P/T has so many ways to counter em its laughable
marines need a late game buff, like more hp and more range like in the campaign. Z/P has so many ways to counter em its laughable.
I love this idea. As zerglings have their adrenal glands in late game, why marine have not a T3 upgrade as is still a key unit all game long.
On December 22 2018 14:34 Woosixion wrote: roaches need a late game buff, like +3 armor when under 50% health like in the campaign. P/T has so many ways to counter em its laughable
marines need a late game buff, like more hp and more range like in the campaign. Z/P has so many ways to counter em its laughable.
I love this idea. As zerglings have their adrenal glands in late game, why marine have not a T3 upgrade as is still a key unit all game long.
a ball of stimmed 3/3 marines can destroy a base in seconds. You dont want to make them more powerful
I think that terran needs a less micro with his army while he is playing a hard macro. For example Ghost should have an autocasting Steady Targeting ALT+R (on/off) like SCV have an auto-repair. Thor is too big and slow and can't handle with anything. Only 1 armor. Sky protoss can easily be out of his range. So what was the point to buff 250mm Punisher Cannons. Maybe he must be more mobile and faster or at least has an AA+ upgrade to be useful.
I love the guy going on about how Terrans are silly for not transitioning from mech to bio. It's the same reasons you'll never see a Protoss transition from Phoenix-Colossus to Immortal-Chargelot-Archon or a Zerg go from Roach-Ravager to Ling-Bane-Hydra. It just doesn't make sense for a million reasons. It blows me away every time just how many Zergs and Protosses don't understand why bio and mech are differen comps.
"Why don't you just include some 0-0 Marauders with your Tank-Thor-Hellbat-Viking army?" Lol
On December 25 2018 01:35 TrashEconomy wrote: I love the guy going on about how Terrans are silly for not transitioning from mech to bio. It's the same reasons you'll never see a Protoss transition from Phoenix-Colossus to Immortal-Chargelot-Archon or a Zerg go from Roach-Ravager to Ling-Bane-Hydra. It just doesn't make sense for a million reasons. It blows me away every time just how many Zergs and Protosses don't understand why bio and mech are differen comps.
"Why don't you just include some 0-0 Marauders with your Tank-Thor-Hellbat-Viking army?" Lol
both of the strategies you describe for Z/P are pretty normal actually. ive seen plenty of pro level games where planned tech switches between units with different upgrade sets were used and worked well. it's weird you would say we'll "never see those things" when they do happen.
it's still true that mech is slightly different. divided armor upgrades are part of why mech-bio transitions aren't strong, and it's also because of addons and lack of flexibility in terran builds once you choose your first couple of addons.
but none of that means mech has to be viable. it doesn't.
i like the Gold Mineral bases with the destructible rocks beside them on the Automation map. it makes for some interesting decisions and a map that changes if you go into a longer game.
On December 23 2018 05:02 avilo wrote: No word about swarmhosts, it's been 5+ "updates" where they refuse to acknowledge and address one of the most idiotic units in the game.
Maybe if everyone collectively calls them out on this they will finally fix it? I can't take their updates seriously.
They also have no clue what they are talking about for TvP, the match-up has been heavily Protoss favored and became even more Protoss favored after the cyclone changes. 3 nexus lets Protoss economy be out of control with chronoboost. Everything they wrote about "all-ins being hard to decipher" is the exact opposite - it's hard for Terran to figure out the all-ins, not the Protoss player.
Let's not even mention tempests and how ridiculous these things need a hotfix.
The devs also mention "hey no one is using thors?" I wonder why. They nerfed the armor by 1, left swarmhosts in their current state for 2+ yrs, and made tempests the most insane unit in the game while also reducing it's supply.
I take nothing Blizzard writes or posts about SC2 seriously until they fix swarmhosts.
The only thing they remotely even got correct in their terrible balance post, is about PvP being mass phoenix every game. It's obvious whoever writes these has a good knowledge of Protoss but is very Protoss biased.
"I think tempest might be too strong" oh really, quite the detective Mr. Sherlock balance designer. "People aren't building thors" oh really, maybe stop nerfing mech every patch and fix swarmhosts. "Terran all-ins are hard to figure out" oh really, you made cyclones unusable, Terran has no allins anymore lol
Almost every single Terran player hates the cyclone being reverted to it's original values. Why? Because it has 120 health, that's less health than a marauder....yeah...revert the cyclone change back to the 2nd version. I have no clue why they thought this was a good idea. Either that or give it more health appropriate to it's expensive cost. Everyone knows 120 health is horseshit for a 3 supply factory unit that cost 100 gas.
Less. Health. Than. A. Marauder. The blizzcon update was a joke for Terran.
I love how terran is somehow the one race that is allowed to have 2 races in one. Not only they apparently need to have 2 very distincts completely different playstyle with entirely different units; but each playstyle needs to have multiple openings and harass options...
Meanwhile, zerg HAS to make hydra ling bane against almost any composition in the game; and has to open mass queen with ling bane to defend all the harass and all-ins, especially with new bc openings.
Against protoss, against stargate heavy you probably want lots of hydras with ling banes for the chargelots. Against protoss mass immortal chargelots, you also want ling bane hydra. Against protoss mass blink stalkers what would you want? ling hydra of course.
Against terran mech, againist speed mech ( hellion/cyclones) You want ling bane hydra with some infestors if possible Against turtle mech, ling bane hydra wiht swarmhosts or faster broodlords.
Against bio tank, you could actually go ling bane muta and do fine, but hydra ling bane still seemed a more solid choice. Against bio mines, you definitely want ling bane hydra.
Against terran late game with lots of ghosts? Not sure, probably ling bane hydra with broodlords?
Am i the only one seing this ? Am i just too zerg biased?
It just seems zerg has 0 variety and is a very predictable race and very boring to play nowadays if you compare to the other races.
But then you have avilo and those mech gods wanting to remove swarmhosts from the game. You guys wont stop until zerg literally has only 3 units...
On December 26 2018 03:53 Snakestyle11 wrote: I love how terran is somehow the one race that is allowed to have 2 races in one. Not only they apparently need to have 2 very distincts completely different playstyle with entirely different units; but each playstyle needs to have multiple openings and harass options...
Meanwhile, zerg HAS to make hydra ling bane against almost any composition in the game; and has to open mass queen with ling bane to defend all the harass and all-ins, especially with new bc openings.
Against protoss, against stargate heavy you probably want lots of hydras with ling banes for the chargelots. Against protoss mass immortal chargelots, you also want ling bane hydra. Against protoss mass blink stalkers what would you want? ling hydra of course.
Against terran mech, againist speed mech ( hellion/cyclones) You want ling bane hydra with some infestors if possible Against turtle mech, ling bane hydra wiht swarmhosts or faster broodlords.
Against bio tank, you could actually go ling bane muta and do fine, but hydra ling bane still seemed a more solid choice. Against bio mines, you definitely want ling bane hydra.
Against terran late game with lots of ghosts? Not sure, probably ling bane hydra with broodlords?
Am i the only one seing this ? Am i just too zerg biased?
It just seems zerg has 0 variety and is a very predictable race and very boring to play nowadays if you compare to the other races.
But then you have avilo and those mech gods wanting to remove swarmhosts from the game. You guys wont stop until zerg literally has only 3 units...
I mean in some ways your right Terran is really designed as 2 races, but That's just the way the game is and on a surface level that seems like a really great and powerful mechanic for Terran to have but in a lot of ways its a huge drawback of the race and contributes to a lot of Terran's problems in the current metagame especially when fighting protoss. Recently I've been playing alot of zerg and I have to say the thing I appreciate the most Is the immense flexibility of zerg. On the surface it feels like they have less units with less viable compositions and that's true. But zerg has by far the best ability in the game to scout what there opponent is doing and then swap around there tech, commitment to economy, and overall game plan to answer that. Its odd that you say zerg is boring and predictable when I think the strongest quality of zerg is there flexibility and amorphous nature. When ever I play zerg I feal like Bruce Lee I can be like water and come to every game with no predetermined plan. After playing terran for so long where I could commit to a build, be scouted, and flawlessly countered I love the ability of zerg to radically change there plan in a short period of time to deal with any given situation. If I see toss is doing an allin great i just slap down my roach waren and in a minute or so I am ready to deal with the problem. Open with the plan to do an allin but see my opponent has an answer, its easy enough to swap into drones. As Terran you just cant play that way because of the limitations of the tech tree and production. This is especially painful in tvp. After the early stages of the game where Terran can realistically mix and match tech it becomes really hard as Terran to change up your plan if things don't look like they are going your way. First off its alot harder to get information as Terran you have to spend scans which really slow you down when your going allin and vs toss thats what your doing 90% of the time. Second of all even if you do realize that protoss has the right answer for your allin you cant pull out of it, I cant just decide I'm going to slam down a 3rd cc and play macro after I've readied myself for an allin because I have no way to be greedy and catch back up in the game. As terran your on the clock toss is just nearly unbeatable in a macro game so you have to go for that allin anyway and pray for bad execution on your opponents part. This is why I've quite playing Terran on this patch. Zerg just has immensely better tools to deal with protoss than terran ever will and bliz has had almost a year now to get tvp to a better state than allin or lose and has failed in this regard.
Yes zerg has less tech options than Terran but because they are not handicapped by split upgrades and production facilities they can much more easily mix and match those options to appropriately answer any threat. This gives them in my opinion by far the most flexible and least predictable style of play not the least. Terran on the other hand has to have a much more rock solid and committed approach to the game and I think especially protoss are able to abuse this weakness in the current meta, making Terran a race with just one really god awful match up and than 2 good ones. I think that the style of terran production works fine as long as 1, terran compositions are general enough they can handle most kinds of compositions with just the addition of a few support units, and 2 terran has the tempo advantage in the game. The problem is right now that terran does not have any answer for tempest ht death balls, theirs nothing I can add into my army to let it stand up to this kind of army. and ontop of this if terran dont allin on 2 base they actually have a tempo disadvantage vs protoss. If protoss gets past 3 base they almost always will have more probes, more upgrades, better tech, more options for tech, more threatening harass. There's really nothing terran has going for them in that kind of game. For zerg your at least flexible enough that you can always just pick a smart reaction to what your opponents doing and get around the fact that they have better units than you so the balance never gets as bad as it does for Terran.
On December 26 2018 03:53 Snakestyle11 wrote: I love how terran is somehow the one race that is allowed to have 2 races in one. Not only they apparently need to have 2 very distincts completely different playstyle with entirely different units; but each playstyle needs to have multiple openings and harass options...
Meanwhile, zerg HAS to make hydra ling bane against almost any composition in the game; and has to open mass queen with ling bane to defend all the harass and all-ins, especially with new bc openings.
Against protoss, against stargate heavy you probably want lots of hydras with ling banes for the chargelots. Against protoss mass immortal chargelots, you also want ling bane hydra. Against protoss mass blink stalkers what would you want? ling hydra of course.
Against terran mech, againist speed mech ( hellion/cyclones) You want ling bane hydra with some infestors if possible Against turtle mech, ling bane hydra wiht swarmhosts or faster broodlords.
Against bio tank, you could actually go ling bane muta and do fine, but hydra ling bane still seemed a more solid choice. Against bio mines, you definitely want ling bane hydra.
Against terran late game with lots of ghosts? Not sure, probably ling bane hydra with broodlords?
Am i the only one seing this ? Am i just too zerg biased?
It just seems zerg has 0 variety and is a very predictable race and very boring to play nowadays if you compare to the other races.
But then you have avilo and those mech gods wanting to remove swarmhosts from the game. You guys wont stop until zerg literally has only 3 units...
I mean in some ways your right Terran is really designed as 2 races, but That's just the way the game is and on a surface level that seems like a really great and powerful mechanic for Terran to have but in a lot of ways its a huge drawback of the race and contributes to a lot of Terran's problems in the current metagame especially when fighting protoss. Recently I've been playing alot of zerg and I have to say the thing I appreciate the most Is the immense flexibility of zerg. On the surface it feels like they have less units with less viable compositions and that's true. But zerg has by far the best ability in the game to scout what there opponent is doing and then swap around there tech, commitment to economy, and overall game plan to answer that. Its odd that you say zerg is boring and predictable when I think the strongest quality of zerg is there flexibility and amorphous nature. When ever I play zerg I feal like Bruce Lee I can be like water and come to every game with no predetermined plan. After playing terran for so long where I could commit to a build, be scouted, and flawlessly countered I love the ability of zerg to radically change there plan in a short period of time to deal with any given situation. If I see toss is doing an allin great i just slap down my roach waren and in a minute or so I am ready to deal with the problem. Open with the plan to do an allin but see my opponent has an answer, its easy enough to swap into drones. As Terran you just cant play that way because of the limitations of the tech tree and production. This is especially painful in tvp. After the early stages of the game where Terran can realistically mix and match tech it becomes really hard as Terran to change up your plan if things don't look like they are going your way. First off its alot harder to get information as Terran you have to spend scans which really slow you down when your going allin and vs toss thats what your doing 90% of the time. Second of all even if you do realize that protoss has the right answer for your allin you cant pull out of it, I cant just decide I'm going to slam down a 3rd cc and play macro after I've readied myself for an allin because I have no way to be greedy and catch back up in the game. As terran your on the clock toss is just nearly unbeatable in a macro game so you have to go for that allin anyway and pray for bad execution on your opponents part. This is why I've quite playing Terran on this patch. Zerg just has immensely better tools to deal with protoss than terran ever will and bliz has had almost a year now to get tvp to a better state than allin or lose and has failed in this regard.
Yes zerg has less tech options than Terran but because they are not handicapped by split upgrades and production facilities they can much more easily mix and match those options to appropriately answer any threat. This gives them in my opinion by far the most flexible and least predictable style of play not the least. Terran on the other hand has to have a much more rock solid and committed approach to the game and I think especially protoss are able to abuse this weakness in the current meta, making Terran a race with just one really god awful match up and than 2 good ones. I think that the style of terran production works fine as long as 1, terran compositions are general enough they can handle most kinds of compositions with just the addition of a few support units, and 2 terran has the tempo advantage in the game. The problem is right now that terran does not have any answer for tempest ht death balls, theirs nothing I can add into my army to let it stand up to this kind of army. and ontop of this if terran dont allin on 2 base they actually have a tempo disadvantage vs protoss. If protoss gets past 3 base they almost always will have more probes, more upgrades, better tech, more options for tech, more threatening harass. There's really nothing terran has going for them in that kind of game. For zerg your at least flexible enough that you can always just pick a smart reaction to what your opponents doing and get around the fact that they have better units than you so the balance never gets as bad as it does for Terran.
My favourite race is Terran. I play it the most. My best race is Zerg. The game is probably imbalanced against Terran at my level of play. I'm no expert though. Anyhow, if it were perfectly balanced at my level I'd probably be a Masters-3 player rather than a Diamond-1 player as Terran. Its not that big of a deal. I'm happy with the game.
Its impossible for Blizzard to perfectly balance the game at every level of play. No diverse race RTS game has ever been perfectly balanced at every play level. The only way to make balancing easier at multiple play levels is to have every faction identical. I'd rather have a 3-race, diverse-race game that is only loosely balanced at my level of play.
Despite the fact the game is probably only loosely balanced at my level of play i'm satisfied with the game.
Keep up the great work Blizzard.
I like the the 1v1 maps this season. It looks like the TL Map Contest worked well and Blizzard selected a nice variety of maps.
On December 26 2018 03:53 Snakestyle11 wrote: I love how terran is somehow the one race that is allowed to have 2 races in one. Not only they apparently need to have 2 very distincts completely different playstyle with entirely different units; but each playstyle needs to have multiple openings and harass options...
Meanwhile, zerg HAS to make hydra ling bane against almost any composition in the game; and has to open mass queen with ling bane to defend all the harass and all-ins, especially with new bc openings.
Against protoss, against stargate heavy you probably want lots of hydras with ling banes for the chargelots. Against protoss mass immortal chargelots, you also want ling bane hydra. Against protoss mass blink stalkers what would you want? ling hydra of course.
Against terran mech, againist speed mech ( hellion/cyclones) You want ling bane hydra with some infestors if possible Against turtle mech, ling bane hydra wiht swarmhosts or faster broodlords.
Against bio tank, you could actually go ling bane muta and do fine, but hydra ling bane still seemed a more solid choice. Against bio mines, you definitely want ling bane hydra.
Against terran late game with lots of ghosts? Not sure, probably ling bane hydra with broodlords?
Am i the only one seing this ? Am i just too zerg biased?
It just seems zerg has 0 variety and is a very predictable race and very boring to play nowadays if you compare to the other races.
But then you have avilo and those mech gods wanting to remove swarmhosts from the game. You guys wont stop until zerg literally has only 3 units...
Well first zvz is almost entirely different composition and feel while tvt and pvp have the same core units then the other matchup, so you got that going for you. As for the two other matchup, well hydra really have become kind of a necessity but you can still play spire base play with ling and banes vs toss even tho it's a bit risky, and as for mech well I personally think roach pushes have been cycle out of the meta for no reason they are still really good and even if the new cyclones is better against roaches tanks usually come out later then before so I feel (at least watching the matchup) there's a nice timing there if you manage to dodge the banshee/cyclone on their way to their base, obviously roaches suck all around if you keep them all game. And zerg can do a lot with the late game transition doing timing with viper or choosing between ultra or BL in a way terran and protoss can't really. If you go late game T or P you just have to play the long game, there isn't really any ghost or tempest "timing" when you got there you just have to play it long.
So you know maybe not the most varied at the moment on the macro side but if your willing to play more aggressive or more funky build with spire, ravager or lurker you can definitely make it work at least on ladder. I remember Bly having some pretty nice muta play in this last HSC maybe go check it out for inspiration?
absolutely nothing about swarm hosts and tempests....blizzard are you even listening?...do terran players mean nothing to you....nothing about protoss triple nexus????....toss get free econ lead with no player interaction.....balance matters in a competitive game like sc2....players will leave if the balance is bad.....terran players and streamers say the same shit over and over....blizzard dont care about sc2....swarm hosts just spam free units.....mech is unplayable....blizzard hates terran and mech....bio aint true terran....tempests kite the whole terran race infinitely....this is unfun and imbalanced....i guess we'll have to wait a year for blizzard to fix this...it took MONTHS for blizzard to think tempests in their current state is good for sc2....jesus christ man.....i cannot fathom this rofl lol xd......sc2 is best when the game is balanced and you can do many strategies with success.....the current state of T is just spam bio and bio bio bio.......little variety.....bad for viewership and esports...new cyclone is trash......disruptors counter mech......wtf man....terran players play from behind.....every matchup.....pure cancer....blizzard do you even hear us?......are you listening????........the terran race is struggling ATM and its not a git gud problem....it's a balance problem....anyone with a brain will admit that terran is weak and toss is imba as fuck.....gg wp.....sc2 ded....this is not fun for anyone balance team....give us a fucking break......sc2 is a great game but blizzard fucked it all up
Its impossible for Blizzard to perfectly balance the game at every level of play. No diverse race RTS game has ever been perfectly balanced at every play level. The only way to make balancing easier at multiple play levels is to have every faction identical. I'd rather have a 3-race, diverse-race game that is only loosely balanced at my level of play.
Despite the fact the game is probably only loosely balanced at my level of play i'm satisfied with the game.
Keep up the great work Blizzard.
I like the the 1v1 maps this season. It looks like the TL Map Contest worked well and Blizzard selected a nice variety of maps.
I m also happy with the game.. And everybbody is according to the fact that Zerg is favored while the rank leaggue goes down. It s just the reflect of SC2 game depending on how much players have speed ability and how strategy option they go.
If you wanna balance the platinium / diamond, you have to reduce zerglings speed and increase their health, nothing seems impossible in a certain way.
you guys might not know but it seems pro players have more problem with chargelots than tempests.But why now ???? they were fine in 2017 and now they completely wiped adepts out of TvP so why ???? did blizzard misread this unit just like widow mine ??? i think the problem lies in non-upgraded liberators since they aren't doing too well against stalkers anymore.they die too fast by focus fire despite dps of stalker is lower than previous one but you know... dead units can't shoot back.... i would like to go more aggressive this time,give liberators +1 range and bonus shield dmg to make sure they can 2 shots stalkers again,put there changes into test map and see how things play out. also tempest could get a small acceleration nerf because pro player haven't played them enough
As for pvp sentry, I propose a chance to the way hallucination works. It should require the same energy to cast the spell, then after 5-10 seconds Continue to drain energy slowly until it's killed or sentry depletes all energy. The hallucinated unit can be cancelled away any time to counter act this draining effect. Give hallucinated units small health or shields buff . Tweak the aforementioned 5-10 second time so that the huulcinated Phoenix starts draining energy by the time the unit is about half wayacross standard maps. this way hullxinations still cost less, but need to be made earlier , across map or pool energy before hallucinating. More dynamic ?? what do you nerds think??
it's over ladies its over gentlemen blizz doesn't give a flying fuck terran is fucking strugling versus protoss right now maru had to proxy every fucking game versus p to end have a flying fuck chance AND WHAT DID BLIZZ DO??? they fucking nerf proxies so when terran race figures out new strategies and innovative ways to win blizzard says fuck you terran here is nerf hammer they did the same to widow mines, liberators, reapers, hellbats, and ravens what the fuck is wrong with you people why the fuck do you hate terran so much these units are fucking trash can after the nerfs widow mines uncloak means protoss is not kept honest in the early game protoss economy spirals out of control triple nexus is fucking retard liberators dont cut it late game versus protoss anymore its a fucking travesty man playing terran is like hurting yourself with a large knife i cant fucking take it anymore terran race is such fucking cancer and blizzard doesnt do a damn thing about it zerg and protoss have it so much easier triple nexus... swarm hosts ravagers dear jesus god man this is fucking ridiculous this is the worst time in starcraft HISTORY for blizzard to be on a holiday hell even the fucking designers dont even deserve bathroom breaks let alone holiday breaks maru wont win anymore because terran proxy is nerfed thors nerfed cyclones nerfed even after the unnecessary nerfs to every other terran units blizzard has a huge grudge against terran and it is really showing this is fucking unbelievable i cant fucking play this game in its current state starcraft is just protosscraft now every tournament will be PvP finals unless terran players just fucking outplay their opponents terran has no chance in macro game v zerg and protoss terran MUST proxy to have ANY chance versus protoss now proxy is removed because cyclone is removed from the game spoiler new cyclone is a trash can unit thors dont even counter mutalisks anymore battlecruisers still countered by queens and tempests still super expensive 400 300 unit absolute fucking joke they waited 8 years for THIS PIEC EOF HSIT what the fucking flying fuck jesus christ this is bonkers i hate playin gterran so much right now im gonna fucking play protoss now sinc eblizzard wont balance the game ill just take my free wins as protoss gg wp starcraft dead game
On December 30 2018 13:47 seemsgood wrote: you guys might not know but it seems pro players have more problem with chargelots than tempests.But why now ???? they were fine in 2017 and now they completely wiped adepts out of TvP so why ???? did blizzard misread this unit just like widow mine ??? i think the problem lies in non-upgraded liberators since they aren't doing too well against stalkers anymore.they die too fast by focus fire despite dps of stalker is lower than previous one but you know... dead units can't shoot back.... i would like to go more aggressive this time,give liberators +1 range and bonus shield dmg to make sure they can 2 shots stalkers again,put there changes into test map and see how things play out. also tempest could get a small acceleration nerf because pro player haven't played them enough
so you want it to be literally 100% impossible to ever engage sieged libs without taking a disastrous trade, like when they were new? looking forward to all the 1-1-1 pushes coming back in style!
the reason it's acceptable for tanks to murder everything on the ground if you fight into a bad spot is because tanks take attention and intelligence to set up and they can't fly. liberators are faster, easier to position and don't collide with ground units or terrain. there are also big risks for protoss blinking onto libs. if you misfocus your fire and end up with a 1 hp liberator you have to either micro stalkers separately or waste DPS overkilling it. if there are widow mines hidden in the army you can insta-lose. liberator engagements are very winnable for terran and it should be more complex than just sieging your units and then dancing 10 supply of bio back and forth to bait the toss army
blinking onto libs to focus them down is a 100% necessary interaction, because there are certain siege positions terran can establish which will literally end the game if you don't engage. what else is protoss going to do? open phoenix every game again? your suggestion takes us backward in time to something we already decided was wrong.
On December 30 2018 13:47 seemsgood wrote: you guys might not know but it seems pro players have more problem with chargelots than tempests.But why now ???? they were fine in 2017 and now they completely wiped adepts out of TvP so why ???? did blizzard misread this unit just like widow mine ??? i think the problem lies in non-upgraded liberators since they aren't doing too well against stalkers anymore.they die too fast by focus fire despite dps of stalker is lower than previous one but you know... dead units can't shoot back.... i would like to go more aggressive this time,give liberators +1 range and bonus shield dmg to make sure they can 2 shots stalkers again,put there changes into test map and see how things play out. also tempest could get a small acceleration nerf because pro player haven't played them enough
was watching gumiho stream a few days ago. he lost ~10 times in a row to a simple zealot timing, after opening "safe" macro (2-3 tanks, 1 raven, bunker, 3cc)
buffing libs is not the solution. tanks should murder these kinds of mindless pushes which net 20 scv kills and often end the game with zero effort
On December 30 2018 13:47 seemsgood wrote: you guys might not know but it seems pro players have more problem with chargelots than tempests.But why now ???? they were fine in 2017 and now they completely wiped adepts out of TvP so why ???? did blizzard misread this unit just like widow mine ??? i think the problem lies in non-upgraded liberators since they aren't doing too well against stalkers anymore.they die too fast by focus fire despite dps of stalker is lower than previous one but you know... dead units can't shoot back.... i would like to go more aggressive this time,give liberators +1 range and bonus shield dmg to make sure they can 2 shots stalkers again,put there changes into test map and see how things play out. also tempest could get a small acceleration nerf because pro player haven't played them enough
so you want it to be literally 100% impossible to ever engage sieged libs without taking a disastrous trade, like when they were new? looking forward to all the 1-1-1 pushes coming back in style!
the reason it's acceptable for tanks to murder everything on the ground if you fight into a bad spot is because tanks take attention and intelligence to set up and they can't fly. liberators are faster, easier to position and don't collide with ground units or terrain. there are also big risks for protoss blinking onto libs. if you misfocus your fire and end up with a 1 hp liberator you have to either micro stalkers separately or waste DPS overkilling it. if there are widow mines hidden in the army you can insta-lose. liberator engagements are very winnable for terran and it should be more complex than just sieging your units and then dancing 10 supply of bio back and forth to bait the toss army
blinking onto libs to focus them down is a 100% necessary interaction, because there are certain siege positions terran can establish which will literally end the game if you don't engage. what else is protoss going to do? open phoenix every game again? your suggestion takes us backward in time to something we already decided was wrong.
ain't immovable siege unit without destroying everything..of course it should destroy everything because i am looking forward to give terran a stronger mid game that's why i were so generous about the tempest's nerf.I still respect the identity of each race you know gateway units bar adepts were weak but now protoss got hydralisk's treatment for stalkers and both widow mine and liberator got nerfed so there is no reason why we shouldn't try it out.strong liberator was something way too important to the point this match up is a clusterfuck after the nerf and blizzard should've fixed it in the moment maru got his second gsl ! not after blizzcon ! besides all in tanks don't work,your khala engineers are all tank haters who designed the whole protoss army just for killing tank but for some reasons still weak to crackling for thousand years of conflict ! jeez.... and of course Davey knew this ,he knew terran can't survive in LOTV without liberators and the current balance team wants to make terran less dependent on it but from what i've seen so far...... THEY FAILED! Davey's too smart for them eh ? i still patient with them ofc but if they want feedback ? here is my feedback
On December 30 2018 13:47 seemsgood wrote: you guys might not know but it seems pro players have more problem with chargelots than tempests.But why now ???? they were fine in 2017 and now they completely wiped adepts out of TvP so why ???? did blizzard misread this unit just like widow mine ??? i think the problem lies in non-upgraded liberators since they aren't doing too well against stalkers anymore.they die too fast by focus fire despite dps of stalker is lower than previous one but you know... dead units can't shoot back.... i would like to go more aggressive this time,give liberators +1 range and bonus shield dmg to make sure they can 2 shots stalkers again,put there changes into test map and see how things play out. also tempest could get a small acceleration nerf because pro player haven't played them enough
was watching gumiho stream a few days ago. he lost ~10 times in a row to a simple zealot timing, after opening "safe" macro (2-3 tanks, 1 raven, bunker, 3cc)
buffing libs is not the solution. tanks should murder these kinds of mindless pushes which net 20 scv kills and often end the game with zero effort
i were not talking about chargelots all in and such
I know how to fix mech in TvP. A brilliant idea. 200IQ. An upgrade for medivac that give an ability to repair mech units while they are inside of medivac or they are lifted (thors not siege tanks). Like a flying repair station or something. Give me my noble prize.
EPT
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