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Community Feedback Update - December 21

Forum Index > SC2 General
78 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 Next All
Seeker *
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
Where dat snitch at?37032 Posts
December 22 2018 02:28 GMT
#1
[image loading]

Source

It’s been a great year for StarCraft II. After the epic BlizzCon finals, we were treated to one of the most exciting HomeStory Cups to date, which showcased the new balance patch just a few days after its release. Congratulations to Serral for winning HSC XVIII and also to Future for his impressive performance at Cheeseadelphia 8! On our end, we’ve been continuing to monitor tournaments and gather feedback from the community forums and pros since the new patch was released. As 2018 comes to a close, we’d like to unpack the feedback we’ve been receiving and share our thoughts on the state of the game.

TvT
As Cyclones now largely resemble their pre-3.8 patch state, TvT early-game has also functionally reverted back to its pre-3.8 patch state. We’re seeing slightly more Reaper proxies compared to the time frame right before 3.8 patch, however. Feedback we’ve received suggests that this may be because players have learned to transition more safely from proxy builds. Or it could be that aggressive builds tend to win out in the early stages after a balance patch and players simply need more time to adapt. Overall, we’ve received reports that early-game TvT has become more varied, and we’re happy with how it’s developing.

ZvZ
We’ve received feedback that Mutalisk-based strategies have become more potent due to a combination of various Zerg changes to the Queen, Roach, Hydralisk, Creep Tumors, and Nydus Networks. We’ll be carefully watching this matchup’s mid-game compositions to see if Mutalisk play becomes too oppressive.

PvP
Because of the Sentry’s Hallucination cost reduction, players are now able to open Stargate and choose their first Stargate unit based on their Hallucination scout. This effectively condenses the pre-4.7.1 Phoenix and Oracle openers into a single catchall Stargate opener. This new opener can diverge into two separate paths, which can cover each other’s weaknesses. As a result, we’re seeing more Stargate openers and Phoenix mirrors than usual.

Thus, we’re considering tweaks to either Hallucination or Stargate units that would add risk to blindly opening Stargate in PvP. We’re also considering changes that would allow players to transition out of Phoenix mirrors in the case of Stargate vs. Stargate openers.

TvZ
TvZ has been the matchup where we’ve seen the most change. We’re glad to see more Widow Mine-based play, which can lead to very back-and-forth, action-packed games. We’ve also been seeing a lot of interesting development in mech compositions with increased use of Cyclones, speed Banshees, and Battlecruisers. This matchup has been consistently evolving and we’re witnessing something new every week.

TvP
In TvP, while we’ve received feedback that Terran proxies are weaker than before, we still see a significant number of proxies in tournament play. Some Protoss players have commented that it can be difficult to discern between the various all-ins and fake all-ins while some Terrans have indicated that proxy play feels like the safest option to secure a low ground expansion against fast Adepts. We’re considering attacking this issue from two angles, both by weakening proxy openers and making macro openers more robust.

With regards to the mid-game, we’ve heard that TvP is slightly easier for Terrans now due to the Disruptor change. As for late-game, we’re keeping a close eye on the strength of Tempests, which we’re getting mixed feedback about. Since one of our overarching goals for the end-of-year patch was to bring more balance to the late-game of all matchups, we’ll keep looking at potential future changes to achieve this, if necessary. At the same time, however—partially because of the prominence of Terran proxies—our sample size of late-game TvP is not as large as we’d like.

ZvP
We’ve received feedback that it’s now easier for Protoss to survive Zerg onslaughts in the mid-game. In the shift to late-game, Zergs have responded positively to Vipers being able to survive Feedback. On the Protoss side, players have been mixing up their late-game compositions and experimenting with new combinations of Void Rays, Carriers, and Tempests. While we feel these are all already positive changes, we’d still like to see more Robotics Bay-level units in Protoss compositions.

Additional Thoughts
Outside of anything matchup-specific, there are a few other units and upgrades that we haven’t seen much of lately, such as Thors, Anabolic Synthesis, and Nydus Networks. Though a few of these may just need more time for players to figure out, we might give them an extra boost in a future patch.

As a whole, we continue to feel that it’s natural for more aggressive strategies to be stronger following a major balance patch because players will need time to explore refined responses to these strategies.

That’s it from us! Now, it’s your turn to let us know your thoughts. But before we leave, we wanted to wish Happy Holidays and a wonderful New Year from everyone on the balance team. See you all next year!
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ModeratorPeople ask me, "Seeker, what are you seeking?" My answer? "Sleep, damn it! Always sleep!"
TL+ Member
Duckman
Profile Joined August 2009
United States158 Posts
December 22 2018 02:41 GMT
#2
Nice
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
December 22 2018 02:53 GMT
#3
Seems reasonable. Sounds like the balance team is at least on the ball about following the meta (which hasn't always been the case). Let's see what changes they make out of it.
virpi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany3598 Posts
December 22 2018 03:23 GMT
#4
I really like the new patch so far. On my skill level (m3), ZvT has become very versatile and fun. Currently, I'm mostly struggling against some weird 3 base allins/timings. BCs are neat, but so far, I mostly win against players who decide to go for the early BC harass. In the late game, they need tons of backup, because corruptors still murder them. (as it should be) ZvP is a bit odd, it's still revolving around timing attacks or the super late game with nothing in between, but that may be due to my macro oriented style. ZvZ is in a great state. Roaches still reign supreme, but muta play has become a bit more viable. If a ZvZ game goes past roach/rav/hydra, you're in for a treat every fucking time. Lurkers, ultras, vipers, brood lords, you name it. Back in WoL I used to hate ZvZ, now it's my favourite matchup.
first we make expand, then we defense it.
ShambhalaWar
Profile Joined August 2013
United States930 Posts
December 22 2018 04:11 GMT
#5
FFS why can't we get David Kim back ...

+ Show Spoiler +
FataLe
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand4507 Posts
December 22 2018 04:58 GMT
#6
I love how comprehensive this new balance team is.
hi. big fan.
Woosixion
Profile Joined February 2012
120 Posts
December 22 2018 05:34 GMT
#7
roaches need a late game buff, like +3 armor when under 50% health like in the campaign. P/T has so many ways to counter em its laughable
the only way out is through...
Doko
Profile Joined May 2010
Argentina1737 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-12-22 07:19:12
December 22 2018 07:10 GMT
#8
"partially because of the prominence of Terran proxies—our sample size of late-game TvP is not as large as we’d like."

I get what they are saying, but at the same time I feel like they are completely missing the point of why no terran wants to touch lategame with a 10 foot pole, be it bio or mech. Other than that their goals are very good, we'll see how they execute them.
WidowMineHero
Profile Joined September 2014
New Zealand143 Posts
December 22 2018 07:24 GMT
#9
On December 22 2018 14:34 Woosixion wrote:
roaches need a late game buff, like +3 armor when under 50% health like in the campaign. P/T has so many ways to counter em its laughable
Can't tell if you 're trolling.
"Time won't change anything, I will."
kOrc
Profile Joined July 2018
22 Posts
December 22 2018 08:16 GMT
#10
Can we get a Templar Archives level upgrade for Stalkers to get +1 range or somehow make them lategame viable? The other race's T1 units still play some meaningful role, or have a significantly better replacement (replace roaches with ravagers/lurkers, marine/marauder just good all game). But for Protoss, if you're making stalkers after the 13-14 minute mark, it probably means you fucked up. But archons just don't have the ground-to-air flexibility needed, you can't just replace stalkers with archons in late game. Just for having basic flexible composition in the mid-to-late game, you *have* to make an expensive air transition, even if the enemy has just a handful of air units.

As Zerg: counter carriers/BCs with corruptors OR ground army + infestor
As Terran: counter carrier/broods with vikings OR marine/hellbat/tank + thors, or cyclones, or widow mines or whatever...
As Protoss: counter air with tempests OR ... die making stalkers.

Storm is not a good anti air counter unless your opponent is AFK. I get that skytoss is really strong, and has good counters, but the lack of optionality just feels dumb. On the other hand, toss has 4 different ways to do AOE ground damage, which feels kinda redundant but having different viable options allows players to manifest their style better.
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
December 22 2018 08:37 GMT
#11
It is surprising that they did not nerf Tempest range.

What Terran unit can even reach kiting Tempest with aoe support?
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15977 Posts
December 22 2018 09:15 GMT
#12
Disappointing they won't revert the Cyclone. That change single-handily made me stop playing the game.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Doko
Profile Joined May 2010
Argentina1737 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-12-22 09:42:49
December 22 2018 09:39 GMT
#13
On December 22 2018 17:37 MockHamill wrote:
It is surprising that they did not nerf Tempest range.

What Terran unit can even reach kiting Tempest with aoe support?


For defense thors can zone small number of tempests even with 0/0 upgrades and outright annihilate them with high upgrades + emp. and while you are usually gonna be at a numerical disadvantage they can be repaired by nearby scvs if you see it coming. Its important to remember that the tempest ground attack range is MUCH smaller than their air one and does not get a bonus vs massive.

The problem is they are completely awful for anything offensive, from a mobility perspective and the fact that shield batteries are a thing. They would need like 2 more range on the high impact mode to be viable in that role but that doesn't really fix the core issue which is storm basically negating your viking count on any large scale engagement.
kOrc
Profile Joined July 2018
22 Posts
December 22 2018 09:51 GMT
#14
On December 22 2018 17:37 MockHamill wrote:
It is surprising that they did not nerf Tempest range.

What Terran unit can even reach kiting Tempest with aoe support?


Battlecruisers teleporting on top of tempests spells their end usually, even with the speed buff because they die even faster now (the ones left over after Yamato barrage)
Kikirik1
Profile Joined January 2017
45 Posts
December 22 2018 10:59 GMT
#15
BC is too expensive to worth.
ihatevideogames
Profile Joined August 2015
570 Posts
December 22 2018 11:29 GMT
#16
On December 22 2018 14:34 Woosixion wrote:
roaches need a late game buff, like +3 armor when under 50% health like in the campaign. P/T has so many ways to counter em its laughable

marines need a late game buff, like more hp and more range like in the campaign. Z/P has so many ways to counter em its laughable.
Luolis
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Finland7118 Posts
December 22 2018 12:02 GMT
#17
On December 22 2018 18:15 Charoisaur wrote:
Disappointing they won't revert the Cyclone. That change single-handily made me stop playing the game.

What`? :D
pro cheese woman / Its never Sunny in Finland. Perkele / FinnishStarcraftTrivia
seemsgood
Profile Joined January 2016
5527 Posts
December 22 2018 12:21 GMT
#18
another poor unit got power creep'd.it's easier to defend and harrass vs terran in late game when going ultras and this is the biggest advantage over going brood lords but seems like zerg players are doing well by yolo'ing one billion banelings into terran's planetary fortress and bane,ling,hydra are doing thier defending job just fine.
power creeping works in MOBA game and could work in modern RTS game if done correctly
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
December 22 2018 15:36 GMT
#19
excited about possibly softening Stargate play in PvP. it's a mirror, there's nothing "broken" about it, but playing anything but phoenix against a phoenix opponent has been hell for a long time, and double phoenix games are not fun to play either.

TL+ Member
LHK
Profile Joined May 2015
204 Posts
December 22 2018 15:38 GMT
#20
i've personally been enjoying the game more than ever this patch. been facing a wide array of diverse playstyles which makes the game way more interesting and fun to me.
-Laura
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