On December 23 2018 17:45 uummpaa wrote: i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
I think both Protoss and Zerg have an easier time to transition from one composition to another depending how the game goes.
Transitioning from mech to bio (or vice versa) is much harder because of 1) Separate upgrades 2) Separate production facilities 3) Strengths that can not been combined.
Bio is strong in mobility. If you add bio to your mech you do not get the advantage of bio since your mech units slow down your bio units.
Also Hellbats are much better at protecting your tanks, bio often dies from splash damage if they try to protect tanks.
Basically mech and bio does not really work when combined (except for 1 or 2-base all-ins).
On December 23 2018 17:45 uummpaa wrote: i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
Do you really think terrans don't start mixing 0/0 Marines into their mech army because they say "it's not part of the BO, period"?
On December 23 2018 17:45 uummpaa wrote: i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
Do you really think terrans don't start mixing 0/0 Marines into their mech army because they say "it's not part of the BO, period"?
yeah sure, and nobody uses a reaper and such,
i think most people know how i mean it, but if it makes you happy to be so picky feel free to continue in doing so....
On December 23 2018 17:45 uummpaa wrote: i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
I think both Protoss and Zerg have an easier time to transition from one composition to another depending how the game goes.
Transitioning from mech to bio (or vice versa) is much harder because of 1) Separate upgrades 2) Separate production facilities 3) Strengths that can not been combined.
Bio is strong in mobility. If you add bio to your mech you do not get the advantage of bio since your mech units slow down your bio units.
Also Hellbats are much better at protecting your tanks, bio often dies from splash damage if they try to protect tanks.
Basically mech and bio does not really work when combined (except for 1 or 2-base all-ins).
sorry but marine/tank and marine/mines aren't allins all the time, or at least at my shitty level of play they aren't
and early mech into bio is a thing that existed at least for a while, but i'm not at all familar with the current meta right now, so maybe that's not a thing anymore.
my question was aimed more at the concept of mech in general, and i think yout first pooints are pretty interesting as to why it is even such a thing
On December 23 2018 17:45 uummpaa wrote: i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
Do you really think terrans don't start mixing 0/0 Marines into their mech army because they say "it's not part of the BO, period"?
yeah sure, and nobody uses a reaper and such,
i think most people know how i mean it, but if it makes you happy to be so picky feel free to continue in doing so....
I actually don't know how you mean it if you don't mean it that way. Wasn't your question why mech players deliberately ignore barrack units? No upgrades is the answer to that.
When Zergs go Ling bane muta they also deliberately ignore Roach warren and Hydra den for the same reason - upgrades. Protoss doesn't have this because all their ground units share the same upgrades.
On December 23 2018 17:45 uummpaa wrote: i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
Do you really think terrans don't start mixing 0/0 Marines into their mech army because they say "it's not part of the BO, period"?
yeah sure, and nobody uses a reaper and such,
i think most people know how i mean it, but if it makes you happy to be so picky feel free to continue in doing so....
I actually don't know how you mean it if you don't mean it that way. Wasn't your question why mech players deliberately ignore barrack units? No upgrades is the answer to that.
When Zergs go Ling bane muta they also deliberately ignore Roach warren and Hydra den for the same reason - upgrades. Protoss doesn't have this because all their ground units share the same upgrades.
unless you are Maru and you go all the units vs Gumiho
On December 23 2018 11:10 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Swarmhosts are pretty absurd vs mech, the only reason they are currently not as oppressive is because BC opening became a thing after the design patch.
If blizzard somehow nerfs BC opening in TvZ, swarmhosts/ravager (or SH/hydra cause of new cyclone) will completely shut down mech again just like it did before.
Its not just avilos opinion, everyone high level terran knows that. You can literally ask any terran pro player and they will tell you this. The difference is simply that most pros dont openly speak about balance, cause the community is more toxic than open minded when it comes to balance discussions.
Its easier to hate on someone like avilo than actually coming up with a valid counter argument.
the burden of proof is on you and avilo. show me a post-patch replay / VOD of a pro terran utilizing speed-mech and losing to ravager / swarm-host or hydra / swarm-host.
you boys live in an alternative universe where ravagers are unstoppable... a world where swarm-host contains still exist and cyclones have 1hp.
the fact is, your opinion about swarm hosts are fringe. you are in the minority. most terrans prefer the new cyclone and are having great success with it. the majority of meching terrans have embraced the cyclone-based speed-mech style. you and avilo, on the other hand, believe that tanks should be the be-all and end-all of mech vZ. you stubbornly go mass tanks every game and you lose to an antiquated anti-tank composition.
ravager / swarm-host is literally THE worst composition a zerg can choose against post-patch speed-mech. the meta at pro KR level is ling / bane / hydra / infestor.
On December 23 2018 18:06 uummpaa wrote: my question was aimed more at the concept of mech in general, and i think yout first pooints are pretty interesting as to why it is even such a thing
You have to understand is not randomly, Blizzard itself designed terran around the 2 playstyles being somewhat independent of themselves and has continued to do so, for example: - 2 different mineral only units, 1 for bio and 1 for mech(opposed to 1 per race for Z and P) - Unit upgrades tied to production facility, (ie: CS and stim vs BF and Magfield) making distinct production based styles. - Attack/armor upgrades tied to style (in HotS they were only 2 mech upgrades but they splitted attack to make mech more ground based)
If you see the changes Blizz has maid their vision is 2 main ground styles, bio and mech, with air being support for both. Even so now mech has become 2 different styles, battle mech (hellion/ciclones/banshee) and traditional mech (hellbat/tank/thor/vinking)
On December 23 2018 11:10 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Swarmhosts are pretty absurd vs mech, the only reason they are currently not as oppressive is because BC opening became a thing after the design patch.
If blizzard somehow nerfs BC opening in TvZ, swarmhosts/ravager (or SH/hydra cause of new cyclone) will completely shut down mech again just like it did before.
Its not just avilos opinion, everyone high level terran knows that. You can literally ask any terran pro player and they will tell you this. The difference is simply that most pros dont openly speak about balance, cause the community is more toxic than open minded when it comes to balance discussions.
Its easier to hate on someone like avilo than actually coming up with a valid counter argument.
the burden of proof is on you and avilo. show me a post-patch replay / VOD of a pro terran utilizing speed-mech and losing to ravager / swarm-host or hydra / swarm-host.
you boys live in an alternative universe where ravagers are unstoppable... a world where swarm-host contains still exist and cyclones have 1hp.
the fact is, your opinion about swarm hosts are fringe. you are in the minority. most terrans prefer the new cyclone and are having great success with it. the majority of meching terrans have embraced the cyclone-based speed-mech style. you and avilo, on the other hand, believe that tanks should be the be-all and end-all of mech vZ. you stubbornly go mass tanks every game and you lose to an antiquated anti-tank composition.
ravager / swarm-host is literally THE worst composition a zerg can choose against post-patch speed-mech. the meta at pro KR level is ling / bane / hydra / infestor.
like i said in my OP, i think the current BC is the reason why "battlemech" is a thing now, i much prefer the current cyclone over the old one, but i dont think the current cyclone alone is the reason for swarmhosts being weaker vs mech.
Imo its the BC opening that allows terran players to get into cyclone/hellion vs zerg. I think if you would take away the strength of BC openings vs zerg, battlemech would not be a thing anymore and then the old standard mech vs swarmhosts/.../... would make a return.
Zergs already adjusted their playstyle vs BCs and especially cyclones. Like you said infestors are a great response to both of those units.
People look at battlemech now and think "wow so dynamic etc". But if you open up with aynthing else than BC, this style simply doesnt work out that well and i dont know if the matchup should be "open up with BC or play bio".
If the goal is strategic diversity, then the patch hasn't reached his goal yet.
Obviously this is just speculation, im looking forward to how things will turn out, but all i can hope for is that swarmhosts somehow stay out of meta cause that unit is just depressing.
On December 23 2018 11:10 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Swarmhosts are pretty absurd vs mech, the only reason they are currently not as oppressive is because BC opening became a thing after the design patch.
If blizzard somehow nerfs BC opening in TvZ, swarmhosts/ravager (or SH/hydra cause of new cyclone) will completely shut down mech again just like it did before.
Its not just avilos opinion, everyone high level terran knows that. You can literally ask any terran pro player and they will tell you this. The difference is simply that most pros dont openly speak about balance, cause the community is more toxic than open minded when it comes to balance discussions.
Its easier to hate on someone like avilo than actually coming up with a valid counter argument.
yeah sure, pro players NEVER talk about balance, stuff like whining over balance never happens there, maybe your are mistaking them for casters (or e-sport-personalities as some are known), who only say there opinion on balance after it was changed (prior to that its always fine). but pros are complaining all the time...
and there are countless posts here that tell you how you can handle SW pretty well, if you honestly think that nobody does, than i can't help you really i think. (in short use hellions or land somthing in the path of the locust, then counterattack) i honestly don't enjoy playing against SW that much, but i still have decent winrate against them, and there are worse things to play against (turtle mech beeing way up there)
just because "turtle harder" isn't the answer doesn't mean that you can't handle them rather well since SW are dead supply most of the time.
and at this point i am starting to think, that they just don't change SW because they fear that avilo would be unemployed after that
If this is your response to "SW are overpowered" then you probably don't play against SW, you build them. Everyone knows how to best deal with swarm hosts, the problem is that flanking swarm hosts is impossible to do reliably. You just have to hold out until the zerg player makes a blunder. And that blunder won't even cost him the game because of injects.
On December 23 2018 11:10 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Swarmhosts are pretty absurd vs mech, the only reason they are currently not as oppressive is because BC opening became a thing after the design patch.
If blizzard somehow nerfs BC opening in TvZ, swarmhosts/ravager (or SH/hydra cause of new cyclone) will completely shut down mech again just like it did before.
Its not just avilos opinion, everyone high level terran knows that. You can literally ask any terran pro player and they will tell you this. The difference is simply that most pros dont openly speak about balance, cause the community is more toxic than open minded when it comes to balance discussions.
Its easier to hate on someone like avilo than actually coming up with a valid counter argument.
yeah sure, pro players NEVER talk about balance, stuff like whining over balance never happens there, maybe your are mistaking them for casters (or e-sport-personalities as some are known), who only say there opinion on balance after it was changed (prior to that its always fine). but pros are complaining all the time...
and there are countless posts here that tell you how you can handle SW pretty well, if you honestly think that nobody does, than i can't help you really i think. (in short use hellions or land somthing in the path of the locust, then counterattack) i honestly don't enjoy playing against SW that much, but i still have decent winrate against them, and there are worse things to play against (turtle mech beeing way up there)
just because "turtle harder" isn't the answer doesn't mean that you can't handle them rather well since SW are dead supply most of the time.
and at this point i am starting to think, that they just don't change SW because they fear that avilo would be unemployed after that
If this is your response to "SW are overpowered" then you probably don't play against SW, you build them. Everyone knows how to best deal with swarm hosts, the problem is that flanking swarm hosts is impossible to do reliably. You just have to hold out until the zerg player makes a blunder. And that blunder won't even cost him the game because of injects.
Do you play against SH, given that you are speaking like you knew better?
On December 23 2018 11:10 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Swarmhosts are pretty absurd vs mech, the only reason they are currently not as oppressive is because BC opening became a thing after the design patch.
If blizzard somehow nerfs BC opening in TvZ, swarmhosts/ravager (or SH/hydra cause of new cyclone) will completely shut down mech again just like it did before.
Its not just avilos opinion, everyone high level terran knows that. You can literally ask any terran pro player and they will tell you this. The difference is simply that most pros dont openly speak about balance, cause the community is more toxic than open minded when it comes to balance discussions.
Its easier to hate on someone like avilo than actually coming up with a valid counter argument.
yeah sure, pro players NEVER talk about balance, stuff like whining over balance never happens there, maybe your are mistaking them for casters (or e-sport-personalities as some are known), who only say there opinion on balance after it was changed (prior to that its always fine). but pros are complaining all the time...
and there are countless posts here that tell you how you can handle SW pretty well, if you honestly think that nobody does, than i can't help you really i think. (in short use hellions or land somthing in the path of the locust, then counterattack) i honestly don't enjoy playing against SW that much, but i still have decent winrate against them, and there are worse things to play against (turtle mech beeing way up there)
just because "turtle harder" isn't the answer doesn't mean that you can't handle them rather well since SW are dead supply most of the time.
and at this point i am starting to think, that they just don't change SW because they fear that avilo would be unemployed after that
If this is your response to "SW are overpowered" then you probably don't play against SW, you build them. Everyone knows how to best deal with swarm hosts, the problem is that flanking swarm hosts is impossible to do reliably. You just have to hold out until the zerg player makes a blunder. And that blunder won't even cost him the game because of injects.
maybe, just maybe you can attack the base of the zerg instead, or the rest of the army, just a suggestion
On December 23 2018 17:45 uummpaa wrote: i have an honest question on that regard (means im really curious, no attempt at trolling anybody here):
is terran mech the only playstyle in SC2 where you deliberately ignore one of your techbuildings?
i dont't mean it in a way that you just don't build a darkshrine or roach warren in a game when you don't need it, but in a way where you say "it's not part of the BO, period"
i hope its not to OT here but i'm thinking about that for some time now
Protoss robotics units share upgrades with gateway units for example, bio and mech have seperate upgrades. This makes it so if you're going mech you are very heavily dicentivized (it's just not viable at all) to just decide to make a tech switch to bio suddenly because you would need a TON of things you dont have such as multiple barracks too, zerg for example can tech switch much more easily because you just need the tech building and then your units all come out from the same larvae, i am aware not all protoss and zerg units share upgrades but it's less restrictive than for terran imo, and protoss has chronoboost to help there too.
You just can't afford to get 2 engi bay upgrades going and 2 armory upgrades going while also being able to afford having so many production buildings and actually making anything out of them. So you have to make a choice if you're going bio or mech. You can go marine tank but then usually youre not really prioritizing mech upgrades at all. And obviously bio/mines don't need upgrades at all to work since they do spell damage and who cares about trying to make your mines tankier with the armor upgrade, lol.
On December 22 2018 14:34 Woosixion wrote: roaches need a late game buff, like +3 armor when under 50% health like in the campaign. P/T has so many ways to counter em its laughable
marines need a late game buff, like more hp and more range like in the campaign. Z/P has so many ways to counter em its laughable.
I love this idea. As zerglings have their adrenal glands in late game, why marine have not a T3 upgrade as is still a key unit all game long.
On December 22 2018 14:34 Woosixion wrote: roaches need a late game buff, like +3 armor when under 50% health like in the campaign. P/T has so many ways to counter em its laughable
marines need a late game buff, like more hp and more range like in the campaign. Z/P has so many ways to counter em its laughable.
I love this idea. As zerglings have their adrenal glands in late game, why marine have not a T3 upgrade as is still a key unit all game long.
a ball of stimmed 3/3 marines can destroy a base in seconds. You dont want to make them more powerful
I think that terran needs a less micro with his army while he is playing a hard macro. For example Ghost should have an autocasting Steady Targeting ALT+R (on/off) like SCV have an auto-repair. Thor is too big and slow and can't handle with anything. Only 1 armor. Sky protoss can easily be out of his range. So what was the point to buff 250mm Punisher Cannons. Maybe he must be more mobile and faster or at least has an AA+ upgrade to be useful.
I love the guy going on about how Terrans are silly for not transitioning from mech to bio. It's the same reasons you'll never see a Protoss transition from Phoenix-Colossus to Immortal-Chargelot-Archon or a Zerg go from Roach-Ravager to Ling-Bane-Hydra. It just doesn't make sense for a million reasons. It blows me away every time just how many Zergs and Protosses don't understand why bio and mech are differen comps.
"Why don't you just include some 0-0 Marauders with your Tank-Thor-Hellbat-Viking army?" Lol
EPT
