EPTMaybe move some of their early game power to some research tech. Like will it REALLY imbalance the match ups if Queens went back to 7 range and then had a +2 range upgrade at hive tech?
What about a 4.0-style Queen redesign? - Page 4
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
Maybe move some of their early game power to some research tech. Like will it REALLY imbalance the match ups if Queens went back to 7 range and then had a +2 range upgrade at hive tech? | ||
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Riquiz
Netherlands402 Posts
On July 19 2018 05:25 Haighstrom wrote: I think queens are well balanced and a really interesting unit and prefer them to be kept exactly how they are. This. | ||
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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
"Just move Hydras to Hatchery tech" ... like, what? Even on an incredibly shallow level that's absurdly complicated. "Just reduce the Queen's AA range" even though it is what it is for several reasons. "Just *insert something about changing larva here*" or how about we just think about that a little more and maybe ask why that might be a terrible thing for anyone at Blizz or here to spend time and effort trying to make work. The range reduction seems the most reasonable, but with Auto Turrets back and all the other harassment units still in the game, I'm not sold on it even if you could research an upgrade for them at Hive or Lair tech. Especially since most of the time, by far, that I hear anyone talk about Queen range it's Terran players saying "I/they would have won there if Queen's weren't so OP." | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2648 Posts
On July 19 2018 12:16 blunderfulguy wrote: Everybody (well, T and P it seems) is quick to demand a change but nobody wants to think about the consequences. I don't think Zergs will be convinced that it could work until somebody takes a deep dive into the supposed "issues" and gives well thought out, substantial ideas on how to "fix" the Queen. "Just move Hydras to Hatchery tech" ... like, what? Even on an incredibly shallow level that's absurdly complicated. "Just reduce the Queen's AA range" even though it is what it is for several reasons. "Just *insert something about changing larva here*" or how about we just think about that a little more and maybe ask why that might be a terrible thing for anyone at Blizz or here to spend time and effort trying to make work. We tought the same of the MsC and the game is much better now. I think it can be done, think about it, right now the queen gives much defence and allows zerg to power throug with few units, this in comparison is one of the reason all the races are the one that harass zerg because if they don't zerg can drone so hard that if you don't they just win. If the zerg had better early game units at the cost of a less strong queen it means zerg needs to drone less and spend more on units to defend but such a thing means that zerg could be allowed to the agressor, again because they have better units in the early game. I think hatch tech hydras actually work in this situation, roaches can't be pushed back tho, hydras would too squishy to survive things like hellions or adepts. But I think It CAN work, fighting a protoss that uses gateway armies, fast expands and splits its armies has made protoss MUs way better than playing against a protoss that defended until a colossus death/ball so I can see the same thing with zerg. Changes to the strenght and cost, the posibility of upgrades differentiating the strenght of hatch hydras and lair hydras, are needed yes but not impossible. | ||
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Thaniri
1264 Posts
On July 19 2018 12:16 blunderfulguy wrote: Everybody (well, T and P it seems) is quick to demand a change but nobody wants to think about the consequences. I don't think Zergs will be convinced that it could work until somebody takes a deep dive into the supposed "issues" and gives well thought out, substantial ideas on how to "fix" the Queen. "Just move Hydras to Hatchery tech" ... like, what? Even on an incredibly shallow level that's absurdly complicated. "Just reduce the Queen's AA range" even though it is what it is for several reasons. "Just *insert something about changing larva here*" or how about we just think about that a little more and maybe ask why that might be a terrible thing for anyone at Blizz or here to spend time and effort trying to make work. The range reduction seems the most reasonable, but with Auto Turrets back and all the other harassment units still in the game, I'm not sold on it even if you could research an upgrade for them at Hive or Lair tech. Especially since most of the time, by far, that I hear anyone talk about Queen range it's Terran players saying "I/they would have won there if Queen's weren't so OP." Let me rant about the queen being an overpowered multi-tool. And remember over the course of my rant that the ONLY nerf I would want to see is the Queen range being reduced from 5 back to 3 on the ground. And I would balance out my queen nerf with a zergling damage buff. - Creep spread is way too strong given that a Terran army essentially cannot fight on it. - Once on 80 drones, especially with the buff allowing injects to stack, larva supply is infinite. Zerg players build up enormous banks in lategame (all matchups) precisely because they know they can resupply 120 army supply in less than a minute in the lategame. - Zerg can get to 80 drones too easily because queens are great at stopping all early harass. With some skillful scouting, a zerg player is rarely surprised by anything and can hold off any air based attack with queens. Any hybrid air/ground ( Like archon drop) with mostly queens and about 20 supply of ground units. Almost every terran timing (noteworthy exception is the relatively recent 2-1-1 into additional barracks 2 tank timing attack) can be held with a few lings and queens. Protoss timings are admittedly harder to hold. Hellion harrass and adept harass is stopped by queens. - Transfuse mana costs are too small to notice. In early game harass situations, 6 queens with transfuse can hold off a lot of attacks all on their own. One would think that burning all that mana on transfuse would at the very least slow down creep spread, but with 6 queens mana management literally does not matter. I think transfuses in large engagement situations are extremely skillful and cool to see. I just don't like how it has basically no opportunity cost to the zerg player. - Nydus allins with queens? Holy jesus that is annoying. - Queens can outrun stimmed marines on creep just fast enough for 20 ling reinforcements to arrive in time on any map. No punishment at all for having queens out of position on the map, and in a place that they can be surprised by marines. Further once the few tumours are destroyed and the harass repelled, the queens can lay down new tumours and the Terran player essentially traded 300 faster minerals in a scan for roughly 1-10 seconds of delayed creep spread (contingent on how good the zerg player is at repelling an attack and immediately replanting tumours) - Roach/hydra on creep are as fast as hellions. There is no game where a zerg player doesn't have a hilarious amount of extra queens. This is because they are critical to economy (larva), infrastructure (creep spread) and are decent army units to boot. Why do I want queens to be 3 range? I want them to be unable to fight in a timing attack or all-ins with roaches. I want them to not be able to deflect marine harass. I want them to require intelligent positioning in order to deflect hellion harass. I want it to be a little bit riskier to leave queens alone on the edge of creep. What I essentially want is for queens to be BAD ground combat units in trade for granting map hacks, infinite larva for instant resupply, and very good defensive ability + anti air (at least early game) Granted, the queen is such a massive crutch for zerg players that this change would probably plummet zerg winrates to 30%. What would I want in exchange? Make zerglings good again. Like, 2008 zerglings good. Make terran have to be smarter with their army against zerglings, because zerglings in an open field can crush them. Make protoss players get punished HARD for missing forcefield or not positioning zealots correctly against zerglings. But most of all, make zerg create ground units before getting to 80 drones that are not. fucking. queens. | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
I get the unit is a necessity, a macro and early defense unit, but is it really ok for it to scale so well into the lategame? | ||
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mCon.Hephaistas
Netherlands891 Posts
The queen allows Zerg to defend early game harass without falling behind in economy, just putting hydras on hatch tech isn't gonna cut it then. You would also have to severely nerf the macro capabilities of the other races, which will force them even more to do early game agression. Things like double stargate oracle might also just be totally broken without queens as AA. And of course moving hydras to hatch tech will give them weaker stats and costs, it will leave a hole in the midgame and will need to be replaced by something else. Blizzard would have to put a lot of resources into this, with the risk of it not working out well, I don't think that is realistic at this point in the game. And lastly I think queens are fine as is, very strong defensively, but not very mobile. Nydus also isn't as strong as some people here seen to think, you barely see them at the highest level and proxy rax probably has a better winrate | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On July 19 2018 14:01 Thaniri wrote: Let me rant about the queen being an overpowered multi-tool. And remember over the course of my rant that the ONLY nerf I would want to see is the Queen range being reduced from 5 back to 3 on the ground. And I would balance out my queen nerf with a zergling damage buff. - Creep spread is way too strong given that a Terran army essentially cannot fight on it. - Once on 80 drones, especially with the buff allowing injects to stack, larva supply is infinite. Zerg players build up enormous banks in lategame (all matchups) precisely because they know they can resupply 120 army supply in less than a minute in the lategame. - Zerg can get to 80 drones too easily because queens are great at stopping all early harass. With some skillful scouting, a zerg player is rarely surprised by anything and can hold off any air based attack with queens. Any hybrid air/ground ( Like archon drop) with mostly queens and about 20 supply of ground units. Almost every terran timing (noteworthy exception is the relatively recent 2-1-1 into additional barracks 2 tank timing attack) can be held with a few lings and queens. Protoss timings are admittedly harder to hold. Hellion harrass and adept harass is stopped by queens. - Transfuse mana costs are too small to notice. In early game harass situations, 6 queens with transfuse can hold off a lot of attacks all on their own. One would think that burning all that mana on transfuse would at the very least slow down creep spread, but with 6 queens mana management literally does not matter. I think transfuses in large engagement situations are extremely skillful and cool to see. I just don't like how it has basically no opportunity cost to the zerg player. - Nydus allins with queens? Holy jesus that is annoying. - Queens can outrun stimmed marines on creep just fast enough for 20 ling reinforcements to arrive in time on any map. No punishment at all for having queens out of position on the map, and in a place that they can be surprised by marines. Further once the few tumours are destroyed and the harass repelled, the queens can lay down new tumours and the Terran player essentially traded 300 faster minerals in a scan for roughly 1-10 seconds of delayed creep spread (contingent on how good the zerg player is at repelling an attack and immediately replanting tumours) - Roach/hydra on creep are as fast as hellions. There is no game where a zerg player doesn't have a hilarious amount of extra queens. This is because they are critical to economy (larva), infrastructure (creep spread) and are decent army units to boot. Why do I want queens to be 3 range? I want them to be unable to fight in a timing attack or all-ins with roaches. I want them to not be able to deflect marine harass. I want them to require intelligent positioning in order to deflect hellion harass. I want it to be a little bit riskier to leave queens alone on the edge of creep. What I essentially want is for queens to be BAD ground combat units in trade for granting map hacks, infinite larva for instant resupply, and very good defensive ability + anti air (at least early game) Granted, the queen is such a massive crutch for zerg players that this change would probably plummet zerg winrates to 30%. What would I want in exchange? Make zerglings good again. Like, 2008 zerglings good. Make terran have to be smarter with their army against zerglings, because zerglings in an open field can crush them. Make protoss players get punished HARD for missing forcefield or not positioning zealots correctly against zerglings. But most of all, make zerg create ground units before getting to 80 drones that are not. fucking. queens. Mass hellion/hellbats would probably have a 100% winrate victory then... Well, I exagerate but an intelligent positioning won't change the kitting ability of the hellion who in mass would nullifie the zerglings, static D would be a must have (at least 1 spine on the B2/B3, creep spread will be heavely delayed and the first push on the terran way stronger), the 3rd will be very delayed too buff zerglings or not... OH I forgot about the reaper who will do a lot more damage, actually, mass reapers should be supreme with a -2 range one tthe queen... Anyway, if you survive, I guess roachs would be the way to go against the 6-8 hellions in early which makes the zergling buff useless in this stage of the game. Moreover, protoss and terran are already punished hard when they make positionning error, the game is really unforgivable and zerglings are fast, it seems a bit harsh to make this stuff stronger. Zvp might be a just a bit more easier but zvt is totally screwed, I wonder how innovation/Maru won't have a 100% winrate against any zerg after this honestly, no way anyone survive the first 10 minutes; And scrubs like me would be so much abused, honestly, I'll just stop playing like in 2015. And for the hydra T1, that's pretty much it, a gap should be adressed in T2 then. All in all, a design change on the queen would need a total reworking on the zerg race in every stage of the game and maybe even on their basic macro mechaniics which basically work like this since 2010, it's not even comparable to the MSC one and personally, I am fine with the way it is. If Blizz team this thread they won't adress the design anyway considering all the nerf adresses. Btw, your last line is a blatant balance whine considering a Z with 66 drones and only queen basically die to any kind of agressive play and as a diam 1 Z, I generally don't last +10 min against T(around 25% winrate) while I'm performing well in the other mu, that's because of my terrible early sure but I don't think a lot of Z on my level or Master 2-3 find themselves very confortables in zvt. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
but i cant see what can be changed here realistically | ||
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the_last_terran1
48 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/J4qhEIW.jpg) Terrans tought... Closed ? not really | ||
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Hannibaal
41 Posts
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the_last_terran1
48 Posts
Kappa User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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loginn
France815 Posts
On July 19 2018 19:32 the_last_terran1 wrote: Terrans tought... Closed ? not really Incredible sample size of 7 is totally representative... | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On July 19 2018 20:10 loginn wrote: Incredible sample size of 7 is totally representative... You know terran is doing badly when there's only 7 left of them... | ||
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the_last_terran1
48 Posts
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loginn
France815 Posts
On July 19 2018 20:20 the_last_terran1 wrote: The percentage of 7 persons which agree themself is equal to 1 chance on 128... I think this is not completely a bad result.. That's only if you consider all answers to have 50% chance to be selected which is hard with 5 answers... and if your poll isn't biased. Also sample size refers to the # of ppl that answered not their agreement. AKA : 7 / 100k Terran players is not representative of the opinion of the 100k Terran players as it is 0.007% of the Terran population. On topic : One fun idea to explore is to nerf queens as a macro unit and to give them the ability to morph into a defensive/support unit like a ling morphs into a bane. | ||
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the_last_terran1
48 Posts
On July 19 2018 20:29 loginn wrote: That's only if you consider all answers to have 50% chance to be selected which is hard with 5 answers... and if your poll isn't biased. Also sample size refers to the # of ppl that answered not their agreement. AKA : 7 / 100k Terran players is not representative of the opinion of the 100k Terran players as it is 0.007% of the Terran population. On topic : One fun idea to explore is to nerf queens as a macro unit and to give them the ability to morph into a defensive/support unit like a ling morphs into a bane. Whatever to me, the result is pretty interesting, | ||
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Techtech1234
3 Posts
However, to me it is a BIG problem that zergs can get away with almost only queens in the early game against grounds units. This is actually really bad and is not consistent with how the race works, that is the fact that zerg has to choose between economy and army, and that other races can slow zerg development by attacking (and HAVE TO, because otherwise you are dead). Multiple solutions are possible in order for zerg to need slightly more units in reaction to aggression (of course all of the below at the same time would be absurd) : - Adding a light OR armored tag to the queen (the downside being it can change some interactions with phoenix/void ray, but not critically in my opinion) - -1 base armor - -1 ground range AND -1 ground damage - Putting a 5 to 10 sec cooldown on transfusion - A 5-10 sec cooldown on creep tumor queen ability, helping to reward creep cleaning a bit more - Some combinations of the above And to people saying that queen is exclusively a defensive unit, don't forget about lategame healing queens, and don't forget about nydus allins with queens that is absurd and really too strong given how much heal and tankiness queens can provide. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On July 19 2018 04:02 Grumbels wrote: Wasn’t in the case that creep didn’t provide a speed boost in Starbow? imo, the 30% speed boost is kinda broken Queens have always had the following problems: anti scouting with ranged attack, free defensive potential for a macro unit, early-game spellcaster, general problems with larva and macro.. I think Starbow had a mechanic where queens could attack, but it costs energy, which is a solution to most of the listed problems. But I forgot all about my past life of playing Starbow.  I wouldnt really go look to deep at starbow for a solution of the sc2 queen problems (if there are any) since they are entirely different. When tinkering with the queen you change so many aspects of how a matchup is played. Ofc starbow has it easier because of the stable core of Brood War so all we had to do was ask ourselves the question what can a queen add to the game? The zerg race was already finished design wise from BW and we added our version of the queen on top of it. In sc2 the queen is part of the core zerg race of sc2 which is why you have to approach it with alot more caution because it covers strongly alot of areas effectively, where the normal zerg army cannot compete (macro, creep spread, Anti-air, Defense, support). Entire army movements depend on there being creep or not. You cannot think of sc2 zerg without the queen. Starbow zerg is still functional though admittedly a bit less without the queen. Not saying thats good or bad, just leaving my impression on it. About my overjoyed "yes" response, i have to admit that i was just a little bit salty about them as a terran player  . From personal preference i have to say that i would find a match up generally more interesting if I dont have to fight 8 queens while the zerg builds 80 drones and then pushing with tier 3/2 units. Generally my impression was, that when they buffed the queen range from 3-5 in late wol, the queen allowed zerg to "skip" to the mid and lategame and thus foregoing the early game. It was a cheap and easy way to fix a problem zerg had at the time against early harass, but I dare say that it was probably not the best. Since then the queen has been buffed again, which shows that this is the direction Blizzard want the game to go in. | ||
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terribleplayer1
95 Posts
Changing queen to light, is basically forcing zerg into 3min roach warrens vs T, and mass spore every game vs P, can you imagine Phoenix/Oracle with Queens being light? To nerf the queen like some of you want, you'd have to redesign the game completely. The Queen is fine and unique, a big part of playing zerg is managing your queens. It's not like people are making 20 queens at the pro level, max you see is like 10 queens very late game. | ||
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