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Russian Federation205 Posts
We really need some real buffs of zerg , now zerg looks to poor vs protoss , who use immortal/archon every game and take ez victorys . They dont even use brain to play protoss , since using one same build every game , and zerg from game to game need find really suprise and new key to victory . Auto-enject lavra is obvious buff , since zergs really needs focus on defense early game ( zerg at this time cant make their own agression ) . And in mid game we need buffs against immortals , i think for begin we can change ravagers cut speed , so shot can down much faster than its now ( atm its too ez do doge , and ravager itself too weak too expensive unit )
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On July 20 2018 00:01 terribleplayer1 wrote:
Some of these Queen ideas are completely suicidal even if they look minor.
Changing queen to light, is basically forcing zerg into 3min roach warrens vs T, and mass spore every game vs P, can you imagine Phoenix/Oracle with Queens being light?
To nerf the queen like some of you want, you'd have to redesign the game completely.
The Queen is fine and unique, a big part of playing zerg is managing your queens.
It's not like people are making 20 queens at the pro level, max you see is like 10 queens very late game.
Thanks for cherry picking and completely ignoring the other changes proposed, and the fact that I said that of course not all the change must be done at the same time. 1 of them could be largely enough. Damn I make a regular argumentation, with several proposal, and still there are people who manage to react like this and like they did not read.
And no, pro zerg can do 10 queens even on 3 bases, most of the time the 2-1-1 build of terrans was defended by like 7-8 queens and very few units. No the queen against ground aggression is not fine, and this has to change somehow. No complete redesign is needed. Just a few stats changed.
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On July 20 2018 00:09 Fbaby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 00:01 terribleplayer1 wrote:
Some of these Queen ideas are completely suicidal even if they look minor.
Changing queen to light, is basically forcing zerg into 3min roach warrens vs T, and mass spore every game vs P, can you imagine Phoenix/Oracle with Queens being light?
To nerf the queen like some of you want, you'd have to redesign the game completely.
The Queen is fine and unique, a big part of playing zerg is managing your queens.
It's not like people are making 20 queens at the pro level, max you see is like 10 queens very late game. Thanks for cherry picking and completely ignoring the other changes proposed, and the fact that I said that of course not all the change must be done at the same time. 1 of them could be largely enough. Damn I make a regular argumentation, with several proposal, and still there are people who manage to react like this and like they did not read. And no, pro zerg can do 10 queens even on 3 bases, most of the time the 2-1-1 build of terrans was defended by like 7-8 queens and very few units. No the queen against ground aggression is not fine, and this has to change somehow. No complete redesign is needed. Just a few stats changed.
You can't just nerf queens, the game is currently balanced around Zerg being able to defend early game with Queens.
Zerg is already behind in worker count vs toss early game until you reach 40+workers.
This can only work if Zerg get's compensated eco wise, for example give 4 larva injects back, but remove the stacking
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Oh you just want Zerg nerfed I see.
What changes you want me to address? -1 Air range is doable, armored maybe, since VR's are so slow.
I just don't think there's any issues with Queens, definitely no balance issues, Zerg is already the most abused race early/mid game as we saw in DH Valencia.
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While we're at it, give back the queens their flying ability, maybe as a hive research. They are overworked with no apparent advantageous feature that opponents have to prepare against.
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as far as I'm concerned, I would like at least some tries around the queen and the creep.
it doesn't feel imba, but it looks like it kills a lot attempts or does too much.
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On July 19 2018 19:13 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2018 14:01 Thaniri wrote:On July 19 2018 12:16 blunderfulguy wrote:
Everybody (well, T and P it seems) is quick to demand a change but nobody wants to think about the consequences. I don't think Zergs will be convinced that it could work until somebody takes a deep dive into the supposed "issues" and gives well thought out, substantial ideas on how to "fix" the Queen.
"Just move Hydras to Hatchery tech" ... like, what? Even on an incredibly shallow level that's absurdly complicated. "Just reduce the Queen's AA range" even though it is what it is for several reasons. "Just *insert something about changing larva here*" or how about we just think about that a little more and maybe ask why that might be a terrible thing for anyone at Blizz or here to spend time and effort trying to make work.
The range reduction seems the most reasonable, but with Auto Turrets back and all the other harassment units still in the game, I'm not sold on it even if you could research an upgrade for them at Hive or Lair tech. Especially since most of the time, by far, that I hear anyone talk about Queen range it's Terran players saying "I/they would have won there if Queen's weren't so OP." Let me rant about the queen being an overpowered multi-tool. And remember over the course of my rant that the ONLY nerf I would want to see is the Queen range being reduced from 5 back to 3 on the ground. And I would balance out my queen nerf with a zergling damage buff. - Creep spread is way too strong given that a Terran army essentially cannot fight on it. - Once on 80 drones, especially with the buff allowing injects to stack, larva supply is infinite. Zerg players build up enormous banks in lategame (all matchups) precisely because they know they can resupply 120 army supply in less than a minute in the lategame. - Zerg can get to 80 drones too easily because queens are great at stopping all early harass. With some skillful scouting, a zerg player is rarely surprised by anything and can hold off any air based attack with queens. Any hybrid air/ground ( Like archon drop) with mostly queens and about 20 supply of ground units. Almost every terran timing (noteworthy exception is the relatively recent 2-1-1 into additional barracks 2 tank timing attack) can be held with a few lings and queens. Protoss timings are admittedly harder to hold. Hellion harrass and adept harass is stopped by queens. - Transfuse mana costs are too small to notice. In early game harass situations, 6 queens with transfuse can hold off a lot of attacks all on their own. One would think that burning all that mana on transfuse would at the very least slow down creep spread, but with 6 queens mana management literally does not matter. I think transfuses in large engagement situations are extremely skillful and cool to see. I just don't like how it has basically no opportunity cost to the zerg player. - Nydus allins with queens? Holy jesus that is annoying. - Queens can outrun stimmed marines on creep just fast enough for 20 ling reinforcements to arrive in time on any map. No punishment at all for having queens out of position on the map, and in a place that they can be surprised by marines. Further once the few tumours are destroyed and the harass repelled, the queens can lay down new tumours and the Terran player essentially traded 300 faster minerals in a scan for roughly 1-10 seconds of delayed creep spread (contingent on how good the zerg player is at repelling an attack and immediately replanting tumours) - Roach/hydra on creep are as fast as hellions. There is no game where a zerg player doesn't have a hilarious amount of extra queens. This is because they are critical to economy (larva), infrastructure (creep spread) and are decent army units to boot. Why do I want queens to be 3 range? I want them to be unable to fight in a timing attack or all-ins with roaches. I want them to not be able to deflect marine harass. I want them to require intelligent positioning in order to deflect hellion harass. I want it to be a little bit riskier to leave queens alone on the edge of creep. What I essentially want is for queens to be BAD ground combat units in trade for granting map hacks, infinite larva for instant resupply, and very good defensive ability + anti air (at least early game) Granted, the queen is such a massive crutch for zerg players that this change would probably plummet zerg winrates to 30%. What would I want in exchange? Make zerglings good again. Like, 2008 zerglings good. Make terran have to be smarter with their army against zerglings, because zerglings in an open field can crush them. Make protoss players get punished HARD for missing forcefield or not positioning zealots correctly against zerglings. But most of all, make zerg create ground units before getting to 80 drones that are not. fucking. queens. Mass hellion/hellbats would probably have a 100% winrate victory then... Well, I exagerate but an intelligent positioning won't change the kitting ability of the hellion who in mass would nullifie the zerglings, static D would be a must have (at least 1 spine on the B2/B3, creep spread will be heavely delayed and the first push on the terran way stronger), the 3rd will be very delayed too buff zerglings or not... OH I forgot about the reaper who will do a lot more damage, actually, mass reapers should be supreme with a -2 range one tthe queen... Anyway, if you survive, I guess roachs would be the way to go against the 6-8 hellions in early which makes the zergling buff useless in this stage of the game. Moreover, protoss and terran are already punished hard when they make positionning error, the game is really unforgivable and zerglings are fast, it seems a bit harsh to make this stuff stronger. Zvp might be a just a bit more easier but zvt is totally screwed, I wonder how innovation/Maru won't have a 100% winrate against any zerg after this honestly, no way anyone survive the first 10 minutes; And scrubs like me would be so much abused, honestly, I'll just stop playing like in 2015. And for the hydra T1, that's pretty much it, a gap should be adressed in T2 then. All in all, a design change on the queen would need a total reworking on the zerg race in every stage of the game and maybe even on their basic macro mechaniics which basically work like this since 2010, it's not even comparable to the MSC one and personally, I am fine with the way it is. If Blizz team this thread they won't adress the design anyway considering all the nerf adresses. Btw, your last line is a blatant balance whine considering a Z with 66 drones and only queen basically die to any kind of agressive play and as a diam 1 Z, I generally don't last +10 min against T(around 25% winrate) while I'm performing well in the other mu, that's because of my terrible early sure but I don't think a lot of Z on my level or Master 2-3 find themselves very confortables in zvt.
You could be right. I insist on making queens terrible as ground combat units. I don't give a fuck what needs to be buffed to fill the ENORMOUS defensive hole that nerfing queens would leave. As long as whatever gets buffed for zerg early defense costs larva I would be satisfied.
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Does anyone have the build order for 80 drones on 20 army supply ZvT? Much appreciated.
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On July 18 2018 08:22 pvsnp wrote:
Everyone is familiar with the 4.0 redesign of Protoss, most notably....
With 4.0, the current balance team has shown that it is capable of redesigning major aspects of the Protoss race in a competent fashion. What say you about letting them try with Zerg?
thanks for posting about the Queen's Jack-Of-All-Trades multi-roles. you make some great points.
i think the Queen transfuse needs to use up a lot more energy and to keep things balanced for the late game the Zerg's most advanced late game units need to be buffed in some way.
other than that... leave the queen alone.
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On July 20 2018 00:44 Thaniri wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2018 19:13 stilt wrote:On July 19 2018 14:01 Thaniri wrote:On July 19 2018 12:16 blunderfulguy wrote:
Everybody (well, T and P it seems) is quick to demand a change but nobody wants to think about the consequences. I don't think Zergs will be convinced that it could work until somebody takes a deep dive into the supposed "issues" and gives well thought out, substantial ideas on how to "fix" the Queen.
"Just move Hydras to Hatchery tech" ... like, what? Even on an incredibly shallow level that's absurdly complicated. "Just reduce the Queen's AA range" even though it is what it is for several reasons. "Just *insert something about changing larva here*" or how about we just think about that a little more and maybe ask why that might be a terrible thing for anyone at Blizz or here to spend time and effort trying to make work.
The range reduction seems the most reasonable, but with Auto Turrets back and all the other harassment units still in the game, I'm not sold on it even if you could research an upgrade for them at Hive or Lair tech. Especially since most of the time, by far, that I hear anyone talk about Queen range it's Terran players saying "I/they would have won there if Queen's weren't so OP." Let me rant about the queen being an overpowered multi-tool. And remember over the course of my rant that the ONLY nerf I would want to see is the Queen range being reduced from 5 back to 3 on the ground. And I would balance out my queen nerf with a zergling damage buff. - Creep spread is way too strong given that a Terran army essentially cannot fight on it. - Once on 80 drones, especially with the buff allowing injects to stack, larva supply is infinite. Zerg players build up enormous banks in lategame (all matchups) precisely because they know they can resupply 120 army supply in less than a minute in the lategame. - Zerg can get to 80 drones too easily because queens are great at stopping all early harass. With some skillful scouting, a zerg player is rarely surprised by anything and can hold off any air based attack with queens. Any hybrid air/ground ( Like archon drop) with mostly queens and about 20 supply of ground units. Almost every terran timing (noteworthy exception is the relatively recent 2-1-1 into additional barracks 2 tank timing attack) can be held with a few lings and queens. Protoss timings are admittedly harder to hold. Hellion harrass and adept harass is stopped by queens. - Transfuse mana costs are too small to notice. In early game harass situations, 6 queens with transfuse can hold off a lot of attacks all on their own. One would think that burning all that mana on transfuse would at the very least slow down creep spread, but with 6 queens mana management literally does not matter. I think transfuses in large engagement situations are extremely skillful and cool to see. I just don't like how it has basically no opportunity cost to the zerg player. - Nydus allins with queens? Holy jesus that is annoying. - Queens can outrun stimmed marines on creep just fast enough for 20 ling reinforcements to arrive in time on any map. No punishment at all for having queens out of position on the map, and in a place that they can be surprised by marines. Further once the few tumours are destroyed and the harass repelled, the queens can lay down new tumours and the Terran player essentially traded 300 faster minerals in a scan for roughly 1-10 seconds of delayed creep spread (contingent on how good the zerg player is at repelling an attack and immediately replanting tumours) - Roach/hydra on creep are as fast as hellions. There is no game where a zerg player doesn't have a hilarious amount of extra queens. This is because they are critical to economy (larva), infrastructure (creep spread) and are decent army units to boot. Why do I want queens to be 3 range? I want them to be unable to fight in a timing attack or all-ins with roaches. I want them to not be able to deflect marine harass. I want them to require intelligent positioning in order to deflect hellion harass. I want it to be a little bit riskier to leave queens alone on the edge of creep. What I essentially want is for queens to be BAD ground combat units in trade for granting map hacks, infinite larva for instant resupply, and very good defensive ability + anti air (at least early game) Granted, the queen is such a massive crutch for zerg players that this change would probably plummet zerg winrates to 30%. What would I want in exchange? Make zerglings good again. Like, 2008 zerglings good. Make terran have to be smarter with their army against zerglings, because zerglings in an open field can crush them. Make protoss players get punished HARD for missing forcefield or not positioning zealots correctly against zerglings. But most of all, make zerg create ground units before getting to 80 drones that are not. fucking. queens. Mass hellion/hellbats would probably have a 100% winrate victory then... Well, I exagerate but an intelligent positioning won't change the kitting ability of the hellion who in mass would nullifie the zerglings, static D would be a must have (at least 1 spine on the B2/B3, creep spread will be heavely delayed and the first push on the terran way stronger), the 3rd will be very delayed too buff zerglings or not... OH I forgot about the reaper who will do a lot more damage, actually, mass reapers should be supreme with a -2 range one tthe queen... Anyway, if you survive, I guess roachs would be the way to go against the 6-8 hellions in early which makes the zergling buff useless in this stage of the game. Moreover, protoss and terran are already punished hard when they make positionning error, the game is really unforgivable and zerglings are fast, it seems a bit harsh to make this stuff stronger. Zvp might be a just a bit more easier but zvt is totally screwed, I wonder how innovation/Maru won't have a 100% winrate against any zerg after this honestly, no way anyone survive the first 10 minutes; And scrubs like me would be so much abused, honestly, I'll just stop playing like in 2015. And for the hydra T1, that's pretty much it, a gap should be adressed in T2 then. All in all, a design change on the queen would need a total reworking on the zerg race in every stage of the game and maybe even on their basic macro mechaniics which basically work like this since 2010, it's not even comparable to the MSC one and personally, I am fine with the way it is. If Blizz team this thread they won't adress the design anyway considering all the nerf adresses. Btw, your last line is a blatant balance whine considering a Z with 66 drones and only queen basically die to any kind of agressive play and as a diam 1 Z, I generally don't last +10 min against T(around 25% winrate) while I'm performing well in the other mu, that's because of my terrible early sure but I don't think a lot of Z on my level or Master 2-3 find themselves very confortables in zvt. You could be right. I insist on making queens terrible as ground combat units. I don't give a fuck what needs to be buffed to fill the ENORMOUS defensive hole that nerfing queens would leave. As long as whatever gets buffed for zerg early defense costs larva I would be satisfied.
So you only care about giving yourself what you want regardless of how it would affect anyone else and even knowingly to the detriment of everyone else on top of blatantly disregarding feedback about your why your ideas are flawed and how much work would need to be done to attempt to force your ideas to work. It seems like no matter what you never be satisfied and your arguments are entirely ill-founded and useless.
If the Queen is going to get an overhaul, no matter how it happens, you have to think about the big picture and every single detail in that picture with respect towards all players of all races and skill levels. Toxic demands are no way to make things happen. They are a way to staunch progression and collapse communities, though, so if that's the goal here then please continue.
Additionally, when making observations as part of your argument for why a change needs to happen, instead of saying "__ is annoying" then stopping or "X on creep is as fast as Y" and nothing more, say "__ is annoying to deal with because __ and __" or "X on creep is as fast as Y, and those players also have Z to deal with Y so X feels unnecessary." "Queens have had their range buffed multiple times" is not useful for arguments either, as it on its own ignores why the buffs happened and why the buffs are relevant to the current discussion. Additionally, "X is essential to Zerg play" is usually an argument for keeping the current design and is an argument against messing around with it.
"Queens have had their range buffed multiple times, and..." it's that "and..." part that needs to be expanded on and dived into. What good does it do for Zergs? How is it difficult for Terrans and Protoss? What would increasing it or decreasing it do for Zergs? And Terrans, Protoss? What about their range being what it is makes it a problem for you or other people? Does anything about the problem have to do with map design? Are Medivacs' Boost not fast enough? Are Warp Prisms' pickup or unload range not far enough? What else could be done to help Banshees, Oracles, what-have-you show up more often? How many units would pressure Zergs more if Queen range was reduced? Marines, Reapers, Hellions, Banshees, Ravens, Widow Mines, Vikings, Liberators, Adepts, Stalkers, Phoenix, Oracles, Void Rays, Roaches, Vipers, Brood Lords... And what if Transfuse was given a cooldown or the Queen's energy pool was reduced, how would that affect the early, mid, late, and very late game for Zergs? How would Nydus play be affected if Tranfuse was given a cooldown? How would Zerg's macro and late game fighting capability against T and P be changed if Queens had smaller energy caps, started with less energy, or Transfuse cost more energy? Too many questions with too many difficult or downright poor excuses for answers from my perspective.
And this Zergling buff argument to compensate somehow... I don't see how it can work. "Why not change Zerglings?" "Why not change Marines?" Because the entire game was built around them. They're part of the foundation, and digging up and replacing the entire foundation is not feasible with everything that has been built on it over the years.
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On July 20 2018 02:07 blunderfulguy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 00:44 Thaniri wrote:On July 19 2018 19:13 stilt wrote:On July 19 2018 14:01 Thaniri wrote:On July 19 2018 12:16 blunderfulguy wrote:
Everybody (well, T and P it seems) is quick to demand a change but nobody wants to think about the consequences. I don't think Zergs will be convinced that it could work until somebody takes a deep dive into the supposed "issues" and gives well thought out, substantial ideas on how to "fix" the Queen.
"Just move Hydras to Hatchery tech" ... like, what? Even on an incredibly shallow level that's absurdly complicated. "Just reduce the Queen's AA range" even though it is what it is for several reasons. "Just *insert something about changing larva here*" or how about we just think about that a little more and maybe ask why that might be a terrible thing for anyone at Blizz or here to spend time and effort trying to make work.
The range reduction seems the most reasonable, but with Auto Turrets back and all the other harassment units still in the game, I'm not sold on it even if you could research an upgrade for them at Hive or Lair tech. Especially since most of the time, by far, that I hear anyone talk about Queen range it's Terran players saying "I/they would have won there if Queen's weren't so OP." Let me rant about the queen being an overpowered multi-tool. And remember over the course of my rant that the ONLY nerf I would want to see is the Queen range being reduced from 5 back to 3 on the ground. And I would balance out my queen nerf with a zergling damage buff. - Creep spread is way too strong given that a Terran army essentially cannot fight on it. - Once on 80 drones, especially with the buff allowing injects to stack, larva supply is infinite. Zerg players build up enormous banks in lategame (all matchups) precisely because they know they can resupply 120 army supply in less than a minute in the lategame. - Zerg can get to 80 drones too easily because queens are great at stopping all early harass. With some skillful scouting, a zerg player is rarely surprised by anything and can hold off any air based attack with queens. Any hybrid air/ground ( Like archon drop) with mostly queens and about 20 supply of ground units. Almost every terran timing (noteworthy exception is the relatively recent 2-1-1 into additional barracks 2 tank timing attack) can be held with a few lings and queens. Protoss timings are admittedly harder to hold. Hellion harrass and adept harass is stopped by queens. - Transfuse mana costs are too small to notice. In early game harass situations, 6 queens with transfuse can hold off a lot of attacks all on their own. One would think that burning all that mana on transfuse would at the very least slow down creep spread, but with 6 queens mana management literally does not matter. I think transfuses in large engagement situations are extremely skillful and cool to see. I just don't like how it has basically no opportunity cost to the zerg player. - Nydus allins with queens? Holy jesus that is annoying. - Queens can outrun stimmed marines on creep just fast enough for 20 ling reinforcements to arrive in time on any map. No punishment at all for having queens out of position on the map, and in a place that they can be surprised by marines. Further once the few tumours are destroyed and the harass repelled, the queens can lay down new tumours and the Terran player essentially traded 300 faster minerals in a scan for roughly 1-10 seconds of delayed creep spread (contingent on how good the zerg player is at repelling an attack and immediately replanting tumours) - Roach/hydra on creep are as fast as hellions. There is no game where a zerg player doesn't have a hilarious amount of extra queens. This is because they are critical to economy (larva), infrastructure (creep spread) and are decent army units to boot. Why do I want queens to be 3 range? I want them to be unable to fight in a timing attack or all-ins with roaches. I want them to not be able to deflect marine harass. I want them to require intelligent positioning in order to deflect hellion harass. I want it to be a little bit riskier to leave queens alone on the edge of creep. What I essentially want is for queens to be BAD ground combat units in trade for granting map hacks, infinite larva for instant resupply, and very good defensive ability + anti air (at least early game) Granted, the queen is such a massive crutch for zerg players that this change would probably plummet zerg winrates to 30%. What would I want in exchange? Make zerglings good again. Like, 2008 zerglings good. Make terran have to be smarter with their army against zerglings, because zerglings in an open field can crush them. Make protoss players get punished HARD for missing forcefield or not positioning zealots correctly against zerglings. But most of all, make zerg create ground units before getting to 80 drones that are not. fucking. queens. Mass hellion/hellbats would probably have a 100% winrate victory then... Well, I exagerate but an intelligent positioning won't change the kitting ability of the hellion who in mass would nullifie the zerglings, static D would be a must have (at least 1 spine on the B2/B3, creep spread will be heavely delayed and the first push on the terran way stronger), the 3rd will be very delayed too buff zerglings or not... OH I forgot about the reaper who will do a lot more damage, actually, mass reapers should be supreme with a -2 range one tthe queen... Anyway, if you survive, I guess roachs would be the way to go against the 6-8 hellions in early which makes the zergling buff useless in this stage of the game. Moreover, protoss and terran are already punished hard when they make positionning error, the game is really unforgivable and zerglings are fast, it seems a bit harsh to make this stuff stronger. Zvp might be a just a bit more easier but zvt is totally screwed, I wonder how innovation/Maru won't have a 100% winrate against any zerg after this honestly, no way anyone survive the first 10 minutes; And scrubs like me would be so much abused, honestly, I'll just stop playing like in 2015. And for the hydra T1, that's pretty much it, a gap should be adressed in T2 then. All in all, a design change on the queen would need a total reworking on the zerg race in every stage of the game and maybe even on their basic macro mechaniics which basically work like this since 2010, it's not even comparable to the MSC one and personally, I am fine with the way it is. If Blizz team this thread they won't adress the design anyway considering all the nerf adresses. Btw, your last line is a blatant balance whine considering a Z with 66 drones and only queen basically die to any kind of agressive play and as a diam 1 Z, I generally don't last +10 min against T(around 25% winrate) while I'm performing well in the other mu, that's because of my terrible early sure but I don't think a lot of Z on my level or Master 2-3 find themselves very confortables in zvt. You could be right. I insist on making queens terrible as ground combat units. I don't give a fuck what needs to be buffed to fill the ENORMOUS defensive hole that nerfing queens would leave. As long as whatever gets buffed for zerg early defense costs larva I would be satisfied. So you only care about giving yourself what you want regardless of how it would affect anyone else and even knowingly to the detriment of everyone else on top of blatantly disregarding feedback about your why your ideas are flawed and how much work would need to be done to attempt to force your ideas to work. It seems like no matter what you never be satisfied and your arguments are entirely ill-founded and useless. If the Queen is going to get an overhaul, no matter how it happens, you have to think about the big picture and every single detail in that picture with respect towards all players of all races and skill levels. Toxic demands are no way to make things happen. They are a way to staunch progression and collapse communities, though, so if that's the goal here then please continue. Additionally, when making observations as part of your argument for why a change needs to happen, instead of saying "__ is annoying" then stopping or "X on creep is as fast as Y" and nothing more, say "__ is annoying to deal with because __ and __" or "X on creep is as fast as Y, and those players also have Z to deal with Y so X feels unnecessary." "Queens have had their range buffed multiple times" is not useful for arguments either, as it on its own ignores why the buffs happened and why the buffs are relevant to the current discussion. Additionally, "X is essential to Zerg play" is usually an argument for keeping the current design and is an argument against messing around with it. "Queens have had their range buffed multiple times, and..." it's that " and..." part that needs to be expanded on and dived into. What good does it do for Zergs? How is it difficult for Terrans and Protoss? What would increasing it or decreasing it do for Zergs? And Terrans, Protoss? What about their range being what it is makes it a problem for you or other people? Does anything about the problem have to do with map design? Are Medivacs' Boost not fast enough? Are Warp Prisms' pickup or unload range not far enough? What else could be done to help Banshees, Oracles, what-have-you show up more often? How many units would pressure Zergs more if Queen range was reduced? Marines, Reapers, Hellions, Banshees, Ravens, Widow Mines, Vikings, Liberators, Adepts, Stalkers, Phoenix, Oracles, Void Rays, Roaches, Vipers, Brood Lords... And what if Transfuse was given a cooldown or the Queen's energy pool was reduced, how would that affect the early, mid, late, and very late game for Zergs? How would Nydus play be affected if Tranfuse was given a cooldown? How would Zerg's macro and late game fighting capability against T and P be changed if Queens had smaller energy caps, started with less energy, or Transfuse cost more energy? Too many questions with too many difficult or downright poor excuses for answers from my perspective. And this Zergling buff argument to compensate somehow... I don't see how it can work. "Why not change Zerglings?" "Why not change Marines?" Because the entire game was built around them. They're part of the foundation, and digging up and replacing the entire foundation is not feasible with everything that has been built on it over the years.
I am looking at the big picture. I know that nerfing queens on the ground is a HUGE change. I'm also aware that in order to compensate we need to buff something else. I, for reasons I've outlined in my previous post, want whatever gets buffed to compensate for queens being shit to cost larva.
You are basically ignoring my post. Buff SOMETHING I don't care. Make roaches good at defending early, who cares. Just make queens bad.
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My ideal patch in light of "zerg = comparatively easy, mechanically" would be:
1. injects stackable twice, not infinite times
2. creep tumor creep spread radius slightly reduced
3. overlord default speed slightly reduced (upgrade stays the same)
I think this would task the zerg more and thus indirectly affect some issues that larvae presents combined with huge vision and multi-role queens.
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One of the best things about the Protoss changes was the introduction of choice (Mothership Core was mandatory, Shield Battery and Recall are options).
I've said this for a long time and I'm pretty convinced it's true: mandatory units or structure simply weaken the strategic/tactical aspect of the game. Sure, some are units and structures necessary but even they have a tradeoff (you can have to much workers for example).
In this spirit: I think Queens should be able to have a production and a defensve/offensive role but it should be mutually exclusive. Something like the following ability would make sense to me (nevermind the terrible name choice  ):
Brood
The queen roots itself on the ground and starts spawning larvae (at half the rate of a hatchery).
While brooding the Queen cannot move, attack, spawn Creep Tumors or cast Transfusion.
So basically, while your Queen is brooding she cannot do anything offensive (attack or spawn Creep Tumors) or defensive (cast Transfusion).
On the other hand you get a mini hatchery for 150 minerals which can be put anywhere on the map and the stupid APM drain for injects is gone. Imagine that!
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On July 20 2018 02:33 Thaniri wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 02:07 blunderfulguy wrote:On July 20 2018 00:44 Thaniri wrote:On July 19 2018 19:13 stilt wrote:On July 19 2018 14:01 Thaniri wrote:On July 19 2018 12:16 blunderfulguy wrote:
Everybody (well, T and P it seems) is quick to demand a change but nobody wants to think about the consequences. I don't think Zergs will be convinced that it could work until somebody takes a deep dive into the supposed "issues" and gives well thought out, substantial ideas on how to "fix" the Queen.
"Just move Hydras to Hatchery tech" ... like, what? Even on an incredibly shallow level that's absurdly complicated. "Just reduce the Queen's AA range" even though it is what it is for several reasons. "Just *insert something about changing larva here*" or how about we just think about that a little more and maybe ask why that might be a terrible thing for anyone at Blizz or here to spend time and effort trying to make work.
The range reduction seems the most reasonable, but with Auto Turrets back and all the other harassment units still in the game, I'm not sold on it even if you could research an upgrade for them at Hive or Lair tech. Especially since most of the time, by far, that I hear anyone talk about Queen range it's Terran players saying "I/they would have won there if Queen's weren't so OP." Let me rant about the queen being an overpowered multi-tool. And remember over the course of my rant that the ONLY nerf I would want to see is the Queen range being reduced from 5 back to 3 on the ground. And I would balance out my queen nerf with a zergling damage buff. - Creep spread is way too strong given that a Terran army essentially cannot fight on it. - Once on 80 drones, especially with the buff allowing injects to stack, larva supply is infinite. Zerg players build up enormous banks in lategame (all matchups) precisely because they know they can resupply 120 army supply in less than a minute in the lategame. - Zerg can get to 80 drones too easily because queens are great at stopping all early harass. With some skillful scouting, a zerg player is rarely surprised by anything and can hold off any air based attack with queens. Any hybrid air/ground ( Like archon drop) with mostly queens and about 20 supply of ground units. Almost every terran timing (noteworthy exception is the relatively recent 2-1-1 into additional barracks 2 tank timing attack) can be held with a few lings and queens. Protoss timings are admittedly harder to hold. Hellion harrass and adept harass is stopped by queens. - Transfuse mana costs are too small to notice. In early game harass situations, 6 queens with transfuse can hold off a lot of attacks all on their own. One would think that burning all that mana on transfuse would at the very least slow down creep spread, but with 6 queens mana management literally does not matter. I think transfuses in large engagement situations are extremely skillful and cool to see. I just don't like how it has basically no opportunity cost to the zerg player. - Nydus allins with queens? Holy jesus that is annoying. - Queens can outrun stimmed marines on creep just fast enough for 20 ling reinforcements to arrive in time on any map. No punishment at all for having queens out of position on the map, and in a place that they can be surprised by marines. Further once the few tumours are destroyed and the harass repelled, the queens can lay down new tumours and the Terran player essentially traded 300 faster minerals in a scan for roughly 1-10 seconds of delayed creep spread (contingent on how good the zerg player is at repelling an attack and immediately replanting tumours) - Roach/hydra on creep are as fast as hellions. There is no game where a zerg player doesn't have a hilarious amount of extra queens. This is because they are critical to economy (larva), infrastructure (creep spread) and are decent army units to boot. Why do I want queens to be 3 range? I want them to be unable to fight in a timing attack or all-ins with roaches. I want them to not be able to deflect marine harass. I want them to require intelligent positioning in order to deflect hellion harass. I want it to be a little bit riskier to leave queens alone on the edge of creep. What I essentially want is for queens to be BAD ground combat units in trade for granting map hacks, infinite larva for instant resupply, and very good defensive ability + anti air (at least early game) Granted, the queen is such a massive crutch for zerg players that this change would probably plummet zerg winrates to 30%. What would I want in exchange? Make zerglings good again. Like, 2008 zerglings good. Make terran have to be smarter with their army against zerglings, because zerglings in an open field can crush them. Make protoss players get punished HARD for missing forcefield or not positioning zealots correctly against zerglings. But most of all, make zerg create ground units before getting to 80 drones that are not. fucking. queens. Mass hellion/hellbats would probably have a 100% winrate victory then... Well, I exagerate but an intelligent positioning won't change the kitting ability of the hellion who in mass would nullifie the zerglings, static D would be a must have (at least 1 spine on the B2/B3, creep spread will be heavely delayed and the first push on the terran way stronger), the 3rd will be very delayed too buff zerglings or not... OH I forgot about the reaper who will do a lot more damage, actually, mass reapers should be supreme with a -2 range one tthe queen... Anyway, if you survive, I guess roachs would be the way to go against the 6-8 hellions in early which makes the zergling buff useless in this stage of the game. Moreover, protoss and terran are already punished hard when they make positionning error, the game is really unforgivable and zerglings are fast, it seems a bit harsh to make this stuff stronger. Zvp might be a just a bit more easier but zvt is totally screwed, I wonder how innovation/Maru won't have a 100% winrate against any zerg after this honestly, no way anyone survive the first 10 minutes; And scrubs like me would be so much abused, honestly, I'll just stop playing like in 2015. And for the hydra T1, that's pretty much it, a gap should be adressed in T2 then. All in all, a design change on the queen would need a total reworking on the zerg race in every stage of the game and maybe even on their basic macro mechaniics which basically work like this since 2010, it's not even comparable to the MSC one and personally, I am fine with the way it is. If Blizz team this thread they won't adress the design anyway considering all the nerf adresses. Btw, your last line is a blatant balance whine considering a Z with 66 drones and only queen basically die to any kind of agressive play and as a diam 1 Z, I generally don't last +10 min against T(around 25% winrate) while I'm performing well in the other mu, that's because of my terrible early sure but I don't think a lot of Z on my level or Master 2-3 find themselves very confortables in zvt. You could be right. I insist on making queens terrible as ground combat units. I don't give a fuck what needs to be buffed to fill the ENORMOUS defensive hole that nerfing queens would leave. As long as whatever gets buffed for zerg early defense costs larva I would be satisfied. So you only care about giving yourself what you want regardless of how it would affect anyone else and even knowingly to the detriment of everyone else on top of blatantly disregarding feedback about your why your ideas are flawed and how much work would need to be done to attempt to force your ideas to work. It seems like no matter what you never be satisfied and your arguments are entirely ill-founded and useless. If the Queen is going to get an overhaul, no matter how it happens, you have to think about the big picture and every single detail in that picture with respect towards all players of all races and skill levels. Toxic demands are no way to make things happen. They are a way to staunch progression and collapse communities, though, so if that's the goal here then please continue. Additionally, when making observations as part of your argument for why a change needs to happen, instead of saying "__ is annoying" then stopping or "X on creep is as fast as Y" and nothing more, say "__ is annoying to deal with because __ and __" or "X on creep is as fast as Y, and those players also have Z to deal with Y so X feels unnecessary." "Queens have had their range buffed multiple times" is not useful for arguments either, as it on its own ignores why the buffs happened and why the buffs are relevant to the current discussion. Additionally, "X is essential to Zerg play" is usually an argument for keeping the current design and is an argument against messing around with it. "Queens have had their range buffed multiple times, and..." it's that " and..." part that needs to be expanded on and dived into. What good does it do for Zergs? How is it difficult for Terrans and Protoss? What would increasing it or decreasing it do for Zergs? And Terrans, Protoss? What about their range being what it is makes it a problem for you or other people? Does anything about the problem have to do with map design? Are Medivacs' Boost not fast enough? Are Warp Prisms' pickup or unload range not far enough? What else could be done to help Banshees, Oracles, what-have-you show up more often? How many units would pressure Zergs more if Queen range was reduced? Marines, Reapers, Hellions, Banshees, Ravens, Widow Mines, Vikings, Liberators, Adepts, Stalkers, Phoenix, Oracles, Void Rays, Roaches, Vipers, Brood Lords... And what if Transfuse was given a cooldown or the Queen's energy pool was reduced, how would that affect the early, mid, late, and very late game for Zergs? How would Nydus play be affected if Tranfuse was given a cooldown? How would Zerg's macro and late game fighting capability against T and P be changed if Queens had smaller energy caps, started with less energy, or Transfuse cost more energy? Too many questions with too many difficult or downright poor excuses for answers from my perspective. And this Zergling buff argument to compensate somehow... I don't see how it can work. "Why not change Zerglings?" "Why not change Marines?" Because the entire game was built around them. They're part of the foundation, and digging up and replacing the entire foundation is not feasible with everything that has been built on it over the years. I am looking at the big picture. I know that nerfing queens on the ground is a HUGE change. I'm also aware that in order to compensate we need to buff something else. I, for reasons I've outlined in my previous post, want whatever gets buffed to compensate for queens being shit to cost larva. You are basically ignoring my post. Buff SOMETHING I don't care. Make roaches good at defending early, who cares. Just make queens bad.
Like Roach have no more armor tag, have roach speed T1 without upgrade, and roach warren 100/0 instead of 150/0 ?
Else you die to tank push, cyclon, simple hellion push,2-1-1,... but it will make ZvP completly broken...
No the statu quo is better.
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On July 20 2018 00:01 terribleplayer1 wrote:
Some of these Queen ideas are completely suicidal even if they look minor.
Changing queen to light, is basically forcing zerg into 3min roach warrens vs T, and mass spore every game vs P, can you imagine Phoenix/Oracle with Queens being light?
To nerf the queen like some of you want, you'd have to redesign the game completely.
The Queen is fine and unique, a big part of playing zerg is managing your queens.
It's not like people are making 20 queens at the pro level, max you see is like 10 queens very late game.
Actually I think you are a bit off. Changing queen to light would force a spine *at most* until enough lings came out. Or if you prefer to be on the more aggressive side or have versatility, the roach warren. It's not hard to micro queens/lings without losing many lings while attempting to secure a third. Hellions don't get to your base until 3:50ish(that's 2 hellions and a reaper tops when reaper expanding). 2 hellions and a reaper can be thwarted by 2 queens alone. At that point the zerg will have at least 2 pairs of lings(2 pairs is pretty standard vs reaper expand. I don't see how the zerg would be in trouble at all during this time frame. All the zerg would have to do is micro back and forth to buy enough time till enough lings are up to surround(that's only if the terran keeps sending hellions too). If they didn't open reaper expand, you'll be able to scout it in time with your OVs while still having enough time to adapt.
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On July 20 2018 02:33 Thaniri wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 02:07 blunderfulguy wrote:On July 20 2018 00:44 Thaniri wrote:On July 19 2018 19:13 stilt wrote:On July 19 2018 14:01 Thaniri wrote:On July 19 2018 12:16 blunderfulguy wrote:
Everybody (well, T and P it seems) is quick to demand a change but nobody wants to think about the consequences. I don't think Zergs will be convinced that it could work until somebody takes a deep dive into the supposed "issues" and gives well thought out, substantial ideas on how to "fix" the Queen.
"Just move Hydras to Hatchery tech" ... like, what? Even on an incredibly shallow level that's absurdly complicated. "Just reduce the Queen's AA range" even though it is what it is for several reasons. "Just *insert something about changing larva here*" or how about we just think about that a little more and maybe ask why that might be a terrible thing for anyone at Blizz or here to spend time and effort trying to make work.
The range reduction seems the most reasonable, but with Auto Turrets back and all the other harassment units still in the game, I'm not sold on it even if you could research an upgrade for them at Hive or Lair tech. Especially since most of the time, by far, that I hear anyone talk about Queen range it's Terran players saying "I/they would have won there if Queen's weren't so OP." Let me rant about the queen being an overpowered multi-tool. And remember over the course of my rant that the ONLY nerf I would want to see is the Queen range being reduced from 5 back to 3 on the ground. And I would balance out my queen nerf with a zergling damage buff. - Creep spread is way too strong given that a Terran army essentially cannot fight on it. - Once on 80 drones, especially with the buff allowing injects to stack, larva supply is infinite. Zerg players build up enormous banks in lategame (all matchups) precisely because they know they can resupply 120 army supply in less than a minute in the lategame. - Zerg can get to 80 drones too easily because queens are great at stopping all early harass. With some skillful scouting, a zerg player is rarely surprised by anything and can hold off any air based attack with queens. Any hybrid air/ground ( Like archon drop) with mostly queens and about 20 supply of ground units. Almost every terran timing (noteworthy exception is the relatively recent 2-1-1 into additional barracks 2 tank timing attack) can be held with a few lings and queens. Protoss timings are admittedly harder to hold. Hellion harrass and adept harass is stopped by queens. - Transfuse mana costs are too small to notice. In early game harass situations, 6 queens with transfuse can hold off a lot of attacks all on their own. One would think that burning all that mana on transfuse would at the very least slow down creep spread, but with 6 queens mana management literally does not matter. I think transfuses in large engagement situations are extremely skillful and cool to see. I just don't like how it has basically no opportunity cost to the zerg player. - Nydus allins with queens? Holy jesus that is annoying. - Queens can outrun stimmed marines on creep just fast enough for 20 ling reinforcements to arrive in time on any map. No punishment at all for having queens out of position on the map, and in a place that they can be surprised by marines. Further once the few tumours are destroyed and the harass repelled, the queens can lay down new tumours and the Terran player essentially traded 300 faster minerals in a scan for roughly 1-10 seconds of delayed creep spread (contingent on how good the zerg player is at repelling an attack and immediately replanting tumours) - Roach/hydra on creep are as fast as hellions. There is no game where a zerg player doesn't have a hilarious amount of extra queens. This is because they are critical to economy (larva), infrastructure (creep spread) and are decent army units to boot. Why do I want queens to be 3 range? I want them to be unable to fight in a timing attack or all-ins with roaches. I want them to not be able to deflect marine harass. I want them to require intelligent positioning in order to deflect hellion harass. I want it to be a little bit riskier to leave queens alone on the edge of creep. What I essentially want is for queens to be BAD ground combat units in trade for granting map hacks, infinite larva for instant resupply, and very good defensive ability + anti air (at least early game) Granted, the queen is such a massive crutch for zerg players that this change would probably plummet zerg winrates to 30%. What would I want in exchange? Make zerglings good again. Like, 2008 zerglings good. Make terran have to be smarter with their army against zerglings, because zerglings in an open field can crush them. Make protoss players get punished HARD for missing forcefield or not positioning zealots correctly against zerglings. But most of all, make zerg create ground units before getting to 80 drones that are not. fucking. queens. Mass hellion/hellbats would probably have a 100% winrate victory then... Well, I exagerate but an intelligent positioning won't change the kitting ability of the hellion who in mass would nullifie the zerglings, static D would be a must have (at least 1 spine on the B2/B3, creep spread will be heavely delayed and the first push on the terran way stronger), the 3rd will be very delayed too buff zerglings or not... OH I forgot about the reaper who will do a lot more damage, actually, mass reapers should be supreme with a -2 range one tthe queen... Anyway, if you survive, I guess roachs would be the way to go against the 6-8 hellions in early which makes the zergling buff useless in this stage of the game. Moreover, protoss and terran are already punished hard when they make positionning error, the game is really unforgivable and zerglings are fast, it seems a bit harsh to make this stuff stronger. Zvp might be a just a bit more easier but zvt is totally screwed, I wonder how innovation/Maru won't have a 100% winrate against any zerg after this honestly, no way anyone survive the first 10 minutes; And scrubs like me would be so much abused, honestly, I'll just stop playing like in 2015. And for the hydra T1, that's pretty much it, a gap should be adressed in T2 then. All in all, a design change on the queen would need a total reworking on the zerg race in every stage of the game and maybe even on their basic macro mechaniics which basically work like this since 2010, it's not even comparable to the MSC one and personally, I am fine with the way it is. If Blizz team this thread they won't adress the design anyway considering all the nerf adresses. Btw, your last line is a blatant balance whine considering a Z with 66 drones and only queen basically die to any kind of agressive play and as a diam 1 Z, I generally don't last +10 min against T(around 25% winrate) while I'm performing well in the other mu, that's because of my terrible early sure but I don't think a lot of Z on my level or Master 2-3 find themselves very confortables in zvt. You could be right. I insist on making queens terrible as ground combat units. I don't give a fuck what needs to be buffed to fill the ENORMOUS defensive hole that nerfing queens would leave. As long as whatever gets buffed for zerg early defense costs larva I would be satisfied. So you only care about giving yourself what you want regardless of how it would affect anyone else and even knowingly to the detriment of everyone else on top of blatantly disregarding feedback about your why your ideas are flawed and how much work would need to be done to attempt to force your ideas to work. It seems like no matter what you never be satisfied and your arguments are entirely ill-founded and useless. If the Queen is going to get an overhaul, no matter how it happens, you have to think about the big picture and every single detail in that picture with respect towards all players of all races and skill levels. Toxic demands are no way to make things happen. They are a way to staunch progression and collapse communities, though, so if that's the goal here then please continue. Additionally, when making observations as part of your argument for why a change needs to happen, instead of saying "__ is annoying" then stopping or "X on creep is as fast as Y" and nothing more, say "__ is annoying to deal with because __ and __" or "X on creep is as fast as Y, and those players also have Z to deal with Y so X feels unnecessary." "Queens have had their range buffed multiple times" is not useful for arguments either, as it on its own ignores why the buffs happened and why the buffs are relevant to the current discussion. Additionally, "X is essential to Zerg play" is usually an argument for keeping the current design and is an argument against messing around with it. "Queens have had their range buffed multiple times, and..." it's that " and..." part that needs to be expanded on and dived into. What good does it do for Zergs? How is it difficult for Terrans and Protoss? What would increasing it or decreasing it do for Zergs? And Terrans, Protoss? What about their range being what it is makes it a problem for you or other people? Does anything about the problem have to do with map design? Are Medivacs' Boost not fast enough? Are Warp Prisms' pickup or unload range not far enough? What else could be done to help Banshees, Oracles, what-have-you show up more often? How many units would pressure Zergs more if Queen range was reduced? Marines, Reapers, Hellions, Banshees, Ravens, Widow Mines, Vikings, Liberators, Adepts, Stalkers, Phoenix, Oracles, Void Rays, Roaches, Vipers, Brood Lords... And what if Transfuse was given a cooldown or the Queen's energy pool was reduced, how would that affect the early, mid, late, and very late game for Zergs? How would Nydus play be affected if Tranfuse was given a cooldown? How would Zerg's macro and late game fighting capability against T and P be changed if Queens had smaller energy caps, started with less energy, or Transfuse cost more energy? Too many questions with too many difficult or downright poor excuses for answers from my perspective. And this Zergling buff argument to compensate somehow... I don't see how it can work. "Why not change Zerglings?" "Why not change Marines?" Because the entire game was built around them. They're part of the foundation, and digging up and replacing the entire foundation is not feasible with everything that has been built on it over the years. I am looking at the big picture. I know that nerfing queens on the ground is a HUGE change. I'm also aware that in order to compensate we need to buff something else. I, for reasons I've outlined in my previous post, want whatever gets buffed to compensate for queens being shit to cost larva. You are basically ignoring my post. Buff SOMETHING I don't care. Make roaches good at defending early, who cares. Just make queens bad.
In general, changing balance is feasible as long as it is done properly. Other games change balance on a regular basis all the time(see HOTS, see LOL, etc etc) and they make it work, there is no reason blizzard shouldn't follow suit. It keeps players on their toes and also keeps the game interesting. To say in so many words that "we are too far deep to change" is simply not true. There is nothing that gives the incentive for things to stay the same forever. Players and spectators would get extremely bored after a couple seasons and the playerbase would eventually die down because things become stagnant. We saw this happen in the past before during the b-lord/infestor era. It's definitely in blizzards best interest to retain the player base other they risk losing their "clients" to other company's games. Just some food for though.
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>Hellions don't get to your base until 3:50ish(that's 2 hellions and a reaper tops when reaper expanding).
Usually 4 hellions show up at 4min~ if theyre doing cc reaper expand.
1 spine crawler + lings like WoL style to stop hellions from running in, otherwise hellions will just shoot and kite, similar to WoL were Terran took 3rd's before Zerg, until the BL/Infestor patch.
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Screw it, make lings faster off creep so that it's easier to surround hellions.
But, because if you repeat something often enough it becomes the truth. Reduce queen range from 5 to 3 on the ground.
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I think a good start would be to change transfuse so that it is no longer instant, it takes 1 second or so for the health to ramp up
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Interestingly enough, this topic was also discussed on r/starcraft and bnet, but instantly devolved into balance whine. Or at least, more whine than here.
You'd think that "4.0-style redesign" would trigger some memories of Protoss strength post-4.0 but I guess kneejerk reactions are too ingrained.
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EPT
