EPTnow could a pro have done the same thing with an hour or 2 of coaching? probably not with this guy.
How efficent is coaching really? - Page 2
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
alpenrahm
Germany629 Posts
now could a pro have done the same thing with an hour or 2 of coaching? probably not with this guy. | ||
|
FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On February 24 2018 21:13 alpenrahm wrote: I think that the coaching youj need depends entirely on where you are at in starcraft. I coached a Clanmate of mine, back in 2012 from silver to top diamond ( at that point he somewhat lost interest but i also dont know if i could have coached him any higher anyway) and the only thing i really did was just watch him play games live against the ai or our clanmates and scream SCV SCV SCV at him when he stopped building em and SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT when he kept looking at his base extensively. we went over the at the time basic terran builds, some shenanigans that people would do to him on ladder etc. and did a lot of buildorder refinement and army control. Like for the first 2 weeks or so we sat down for an hour a day just grinding some 3 base marine tank 2-1 all in. The next week we did literally the same except i made him move around a reaper while doing so. It wasnt really a lot of coaching but rather just drilling the basics into the guys fingers. and it worked beautifully. now could a pro have done the same thing with an hour or 2 of coaching? probably not with this guy. From most traditional standpoints, what you described is coaching. You worked strategy as well as drilled him. Though from my perspective, I never understood paying for like two hours of coaching and nothing else. Of course, people are at different skill levels, and a diamond player or higher may just need more practice or strategy polish. | ||
|
alpenrahm
Germany629 Posts
| ||
|
Zrana1
Netherlands45 Posts
Someone with maybe 1-2 hours a day to play in the evenings probably wants to spend most of that time actually playing the game, so I think a high level coach can really speed things up by analysing your play better than you can. I;m mid diamond and I'm 1000% sure that if I send my replays to a GM/Pro level player they will be able to see ways I could improve within a single viewing of the replay that wouldn't have even crossed my mind without a lot more thought/time investment from me. I saw PiG coaching a another zerg about my level and he was basically describing to the player the way he approaches thinking about the game, and that kind of insight is only something you can get with a lot of practice and experience otherwise. Really it comes down to: can you learn faster with a teacher than with self-teaching? In most cases the answer is yes. All those guys at the olympics have coaches and the best starcraft players have (had) coaches, or other players which acted in that role. | ||
|
AbouSV
Germany1278 Posts
On February 24 2018 13:05 PiGStarcraft wrote: I'm GM with Terran. "Didn't know proper control group binds" Ahuh.. Sure buddy You must use different ones from him, therefore you're mistaken. What else! | ||
|
DSh1
292 Posts
On February 24 2018 21:13 alpenrahm wrote: I think that the coaching youj need depends entirely on where you are at in starcraft. I coached a Clanmate of mine, back in 2012 from silver to top diamond ( at that point he somewhat lost interest but i also dont know if i could have coached him any higher anyway) and the only thing i really did was just watch him play games live against the ai or our clanmates and scream SCV SCV SCV at him when he stopped building em and SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT when he kept looking at his base extensively. we went over the at the time basic terran builds, some shenanigans that people would do to him on ladder etc. and did a lot of buildorder refinement and army control. Like for the first 2 weeks or so we sat down for an hour a day just grinding some 3 base marine tank 2-1 all in. The next week we did literally the same except i made him move around a reaper while doing so. It wasnt really a lot of coaching but rather just drilling the basics into the guys fingers. and it worked beautifully. now could a pro have done the same thing with an hour or 2 of coaching? probably not with this guy. That's nice. I think the point of coaching/tutoring is also that I would slack off if I played alone. You are trying harder when you know someone is watching. Sounds dumb but applies to all kinds of things. | ||
|
AbouSV
Germany1278 Posts
On February 24 2018 22:44 DSh1 wrote: That's nice. I think the point of coaching/tutoring is also that I would slack off if I played alone. You are trying harder when you know someone is watching. Sounds dumb but applies to all kinds of things. Coaching, be it with a pro or anyone else, is just a way to get the tools to get better. If you don't train with the given tools, that will get you nowhere anyway. | ||
|
avilo
United States4100 Posts
On February 24 2018 10:03 Daimai wrote: Many high level streamers and pros offer coaching sessions for money but how efficent are they really? How much can one expect to improve/learn during a coaching session with a pro? Is it an efficent way to spend your money if you're looking to improve or is it just a glorified way to buy some time with one of your favorite players? I've been having some money to spare lately and I have also plateaued in MMR (currently 5.1k) and I want to become better, but I feel like it's very hard for me to gauge my own errors and what I could do better besides the obvious things like not getting supply blocked etc. Coaching will improve your skill at a waaaaaaaaaaaaay faster rate than just doing it on your own. Because a coach knows way more about the game than you and will instantly be able to identify things you are doing wrong or things you are doing good. Coaching is about giving a player a good foundation to improve themselves and to give them good habits. If you cannot do this on your own, then you will not improve as a player. A coach can help guide you on things you may not even realize you need to be doing. A good coach can also help you to have a good mind set about the game and how to think about the game. I've coached a ton of people on SC2 and every single person i've coached has seen or felt improvement after getting coached. How do you think players improve at real life athletic sports? There are coaches in everything and anything. And yes it is worth it IF you want to dedicate the time to getting better at the game. This is of course under the assumption the coach is actually a good coach. I don't know about other SC2 coaches or whatever, but i coached tennis for 10+ years, so perhaps that's why anyone i've ever coached in SC2 has always improved at the game a lot after coaching. | ||
|
PiGStarcraft
Australia987 Posts
On February 24 2018 17:23 Mun_Su wrote: He probably has a spybot deeply rooted in TL. or maybe he was lured by the "coaching" in the title thread  Nah sometimes I'm just escorting some halflings around Middle Earth when I'm all like "There is a fell voice upon the air". That's when I know someone's being a cheeky dickhead and I need to step into the TL forum | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37038 Posts
On February 25 2018 02:02 PiGStarcraft wrote: Nah sometimes I'm just escorting some halflings around Middle Earth when I'm all like "There is a fell voice upon the air". That's when I know someone's being a cheeky dickhead and I need to step into the TL forum This is where the "thumbs up" feature would come in handy for TL  | ||
|
ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
Music is like this, so are sports, just like Avilo said. I pay a music teacher because is infinitely deeper than mine, and it's been 200% worth it in my experience. Be wary of one thing, some people are amazing at playing the game, but really shitty at teaching it. Make sure you find someone with really good teaching skills and a greater understanding of the game than you have. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15996 Posts
On February 25 2018 11:50 ShambhalaWar wrote: With coaching you are paying for someone's understanding of the game. If their understanding of the game is better than yours, and if they can help you understand the game as well as they do... then it should be extremely valuable. Music is like this, so are sports, just like Avilo said. I pay a music teacher because is infinitely deeper than mine, and it's been 200% worth it in my experience. Be wary of one thing, some people are amazing at playing the game, but really shitty at teaching it. Make sure you find someone with really good teaching skills and a greater understanding of the game than you have. How do you know if someone has a greater understanding of the game than you? I don't think being better at the game necessarily equals to better understanding, you can get gm by grinding out 1 build over and over. | ||
|
Drfilip
Sweden590 Posts
A coach needs understanding, not playing skill. A coach needs to be pedagogical, making the player assimilate (or accommodate) the knowledge of the coaching, may it be propositional (do this, not that) or non-propositional (mechanics, habits etc.). | ||
|
Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On February 25 2018 19:15 Drfilip wrote: It seems as if many of the posters here are implying that the coach needs to better than the player being coached. If that were the case almost all top players won't benefit from coaching. A coach needs understanding, not playing skill. A coach needs to be pedagogical, making the player assimilate (or accommodate) the knowledge of the coaching, may it be propositional (do this, not that) or non-propositional (mechanics, habits etc.). i agree 100%, i improved a ton when i paid tumescentpie to coach me from gm to gsl. just because someone is in diamond doesn't mean that they don't have grandmaster level knowledge of strategy/meta/mechanics | ||
|
GothGirlGames
167 Posts
A bronze could coach a top GM, a coach don't need to tell the student what to do. Just help the student ask themselfs the right questions, give the focus and efforts of the student a better direction. Sometimes new people can see and question things that veterans has learned to ignore. To be a well-rounded coach you need all that has been said, but to be a good coach you just need to bring something new to the table. "That drop you do, try come in from north instead, the opponent will see the medivac/overlord/prism two seconds later" "Burrow the lurker on the side of the ramp instead of on it, the pylon powering the wall will be in the crossfire then" "You know that stasis trap you tend to make infront of your base when the opponent attacks? What if you made it behind the opponents attacking army instead, so that the army or the reinforcements get stuck?" and whatever else small details someone could make up that the player might have overlooked. It often something really small that needs change to make a big diffrence. | ||
|
Kalera
United States338 Posts
| ||
| ||
