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On January 08 2018 02:06 Athenau wrote:
Give Liberators back +5 damage so that they start two-shotting gateway units at +1 air attack upgrades instead of +2. Seems like a fair trade for better stalkers and faster upgrades, and an overall weaker T early game post-patch.
wtf, I thought the nerf was to +1 requirement. +2 is wrong.....
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Well, it depends. Right now they two-shot adepts out of the gate, zealots at +1, and stalkers at +2. Adding +5 damage would mean they two-shot zealots immediately and stalkers at +1.
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On January 07 2018 22:59 Edowyth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2018 09:46 pvsnp wrote:Mizenhauer is most likely assuming that his readers are familiar with forums' consensus of the current meta–which is to say that TvP is Protoss-favored (and PvZ is Zerg-favored, but that's besides the point). Unless you've been hibernating the past few weeks, you should be aware of that. People cite all kind of sources, but a some searching for me yielded: IEM Katowice Korean Qualifier TvP: 44% IEM Pyeongchang Korean Qualifier TvP: 36% GSL Qualifier TvP: 44% This reddit post about top ladder winrates: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/7nzcl0/pvt_top_20_stats_eu_gm_ladder/The following aligulac winrates for top Koreans after 12/18/2017 (most recent balance patch): TvP: Inno: 58% Maru: 42% TY: 33% aLive: 50% Gumiho: 52% PvT: Stats: 100% sOs: 80% Zest: 58% Classic: 72% herO: 70% Individually each of these pieces might be coincidence but when combined I would interpret them as saying the highest level of PvT is favors Protoss, and significantly at that. Not surprisingly, I've been away for the holidays the last few weeks ... these numbers are things I haven't seen. Thanks for providing them. Do you have any idea why Terran is struggling in the match-up? Are there particular builds that are too strong? Is Terran just too far behind from trying to defend with too little early-game power?
I understand. Hope you enjoyed your holidays then! My own family gets a bit....suffocating (in a good way) after a week or two and I took advantage of free time for starcraft purposes.
From what I've seen I think the problem is twofold. Namely, Stalkers were buffed and WM were nerfed. While there is a great deal of whine about Stalkers these days I would tend to say the WM nerf has had much more influence.
To lay some groundwork, the standard PvT meta is gateway-heavy double forge with a couple immortals into storm. (If you want the specifics: https://lotv.spawningtool.com/build/63519/ )
At its core, the problem with the current PvT meta is that Terran lacks any reliable form of harass. Stargate openers were standard pre-4.0 for a reason. Without the need to invest in detection, Protoss is free to take a fast third with double forge while forcing Terran to turtle until stim with a handful of Stalkers (if bio-heavy) or deflecting medivacs with that same handful of Stalkers (if drop-heavy). When Terran finally does make a push, blink Stalkers whittle down the numbers until a superior-upgraded gateway-immortal army engages on home turf. Storm just seals the deal.
Incidentally, this same issue also plagues Terran in TvZ and is a major (if not critical) reason why mech is standard. For obvious reasons, mech is not an option in TvP.
TvP is not unwinnable by any means, but it definitely seems like an uphill battle. Terrans seem to be delaying the third for a heavier two-base push, or doing the opposite and taking a very fast third for a later push. I haven't seen much in the way of lategame.
Though TvP can seem hopeless, I suspect that the solution is smaller and simpler then many Terrans think. I'd say the new Stalker itself can be left untouched, since it is just as flimsy as ever in a fight. In the interest of PvZ, I would also shy away from Protoss nerfs. Straight buffing bio, ala marauder revert, is a very direct option that would circumvent the need to harass by just giving Terran a stronger bioball. Personally I would prefer something more subtle, for instance one of the following:
1. A WM cost reduction to encourage their new role a single-use splash rather than detection-forcers. Maybe 25 minerals, to 50/25?
2. Reducing stim research time, which would allow Terrans to move out sooner with bio instead of turtling in fear of Stalkers. Maybe 21 seconds, to 100?
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On January 08 2018 06:12 pvsnp wrote:
Though TvP can seem hopeless, I suspect that the solution is smaller and simpler then many Terrans think. I'd say the new Stalker itself can be left untouched, since it is just as flimsy as ever in a fight. In the interest of PvZ, I would also shy away from Protoss nerfs. Straight buffing bio, ala marauder revert, is a very direct option that would circumvent the need to harass by just giving Terran a stronger bioball. Personally I would prefer something more subtle, for instance one of the following:
1. A WM cost reduction to encourage their new role a single-use splash rather than detection-forcers. Maybe 25 minerals, to 50/25?
2. Reducing stim research time, which would allow Terrans to move out sooner with bio instead of turtling in fear of Stalkers. Maybe 21 seconds, to 100?
The second strikes me as particularly good. Terran has always had trouble in the early-game because bio simply sucks without having stim+concussive+cs.
Giving them that extra mobility and damage earlier seems perfectly fine with the recent buffs to blings and hydras as well as stalkers. I'd think that allowing Neosteel Frames to be individually upgraded (like overlord drop) might help with early defense as well, if needed.
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Why every article has to lead to a balance discussion? Cant we just enjoy the epic narrative of SC2 without thinking that much about numbers?
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On January 08 2018 18:43 Argonauta wrote:
Why every article has to lead to a balance discussion? Cant we just enjoy the epic narrative of SC2 without thinking that much about numbers?
Terran needs saving article - this almost begs for a balance discussion 
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On January 08 2018 19:20 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2018 18:43 Argonauta wrote:
Why every article has to lead to a balance discussion? Cant we just enjoy the epic narrative of SC2 without thinking that much about numbers? Terran needs saving article - this almost begs for a balance discussion
I'll be disapointed if such an article don't bring balance discussion
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At first, I was surprised at omitting ByuN as one of the saviors of Terran, but it made sense after all. Great article, thank you!
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I love this objective article, no fear to blame balance when balance is an issue, funny losira byul and no regret made it to GSL qualifers, no balance issue noooooooo for sure hahahahaha
User was banned for this post.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On January 09 2018 04:10 beefITek wrote:
I love this objective article, no fear to blame balance when balance is an issue, funny losira byul and no regret made it to GSL qualifers, no balance issue noooooooo for sure hahahahaha
Do you have links to the games so we can see how much patch-zerg are they? BEcause in the Group A I saw a really stunning performance of all the 3 non terran players. If these can get in, basically everyone can
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I get the hype behind these two, but with all the design changes maybe it is time for Terran to play a bit differently. With all the complaints about Terran being weak after last patch, this GSL would sure be interesting.
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"can Innovation save terran?" Verdict is in: No.
Both TvZ and TvP feel so unfair at the moment, and watching the best Terran players in the world get crushed in the same ways that I do is so disheartening about the state these matchups.
I hope that blizzard helps to correct some of the "little" ways that terran feels underpowered: reverting widow mine nerf, reverting baneling + hydra health buffs (which will also help Protoss in PvZ), and nerfing parasitic bomb so that it doesn't make vikings evaporate in Mech vs zerg late game.
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Maru's play coming into the round of 16 and his play at WESG have been in poor form - I don't think he will be our savior either. Here's hoping that at least TY can make it into the round of 8. I don't know what different play out of Terran is supposed to look like but hopefully we can get an idea from the remaining Terran players this GSL.
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On February 10 2018 18:19 Iroijdik wrote:
Maru's play coming into the round of 16 and his play at WESG have been in poor form - I don't think he will be our savior either. Here's hoping that at least TY can make it into the round of 8. I don't know what different play out of Terran is supposed to look like but hopefully we can get an idea from the remaining Terran players this GSL.
maru looked better than TY in WESG qual tbf
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On February 10 2018 21:50 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2018 18:19 Iroijdik wrote:
Maru's play coming into the round of 16 and his play at WESG have been in poor form - I don't think he will be our savior either. Here's hoping that at least TY can make it into the round of 8. I don't know what different play out of Terran is supposed to look like but hopefully we can get an idea from the remaining Terran players this GSL. maru looked better than TY in WESG qual tbf
he looked awful in GSL though couldn't even play a real game had to proxy reaper his way out of the group
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On February 10 2018 22:26 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2018 21:50 Argonauta wrote:On February 10 2018 18:19 Iroijdik wrote:
Maru's play coming into the round of 16 and his play at WESG have been in poor form - I don't think he will be our savior either. Here's hoping that at least TY can make it into the round of 8. I don't know what different play out of Terran is supposed to look like but hopefully we can get an idea from the remaining Terran players this GSL. maru looked better than TY in WESG qual tbf he looked awful in GSL though couldn't even play a real game had to proxy reaper his way out of the group
dont say that about Scarlett's victory tho
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On February 10 2018 18:19 Iroijdik wrote:
Maru's play coming into the round of 16 and his play at WESG have been in poor form - I don't think he will be our savior either. Here's hoping that at least TY can make it into the round of 8. I don't know what different play out of Terran is supposed to look like but hopefully we can get an idea from the remaining Terran players this GSL.
TY looks worse than Inno or Maru right now. His reluctance to all-in in TvP like everyone other terran probably hurts him
That being said TY has a much easier route to the ro8 anyway
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On February 10 2018 23:02 Fango wrote:
His reluctance to all-in in TvP like everyone other terran probably hurts him
That's just completely wrong. Like I have no idea why you'd say this about a player who hasn't taken a 3rd base against Protoss in tournament games this year.
Also Dark/aLive/soO is a much easier path to Ro8 than Leenock/Scarlett. Fucking lol.
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On February 10 2018 23:11 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2018 23:02 Fango wrote:
His reluctance to all-in in TvP like everyone other terran probably hurts him Also Dark/aLive/soO is a much easier path to Ro8 than Leenock/Scarlett. Fucking lol.
I was thinking the same lol. TY has one of the sickest groups we have seen in years... (Meanwhile Inno cherrypicked his group and got bopped, which is pretty funny)
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On February 10 2018 23:11 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2018 23:02 Fango wrote:
His reluctance to all-in in TvP like everyone other terran probably hurts him That's just completely wrong. Like I have no idea why you'd say this about a player who hasn't taken a 3rd base against Protoss in tournament games this year. Also Dark/aLive/soO is a much easier path to Ro8 than Leenock/Scarlett. Fucking lol.
I'll admit I haven't seen many of his games, but doing all-ins has been a weakpoint for TY for a very long time. And his results against protoss since 4.0 have been complete shit for the most part.
I was more comparing TY's group to Maru's. soO can't ZvT to save his life, TY vs alive will almost certainly determine who goes through to the ro8. Whereas Gumiho/Dear/Classic is looking unbreakable for Maru.
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EPT
