EPTKeepers of the Faith: Can INnoVation & Maru Save Terran? -…
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Vutalisk
United States680 Posts
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Pentarp
224 Posts
On January 06 2018 05:05 Tyrhanius wrote: Top 10 earnings : 6 Terrans, 2 Zergs, 2 Protoss Are you really serious? | ||
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NutriaKaiN
88 Posts
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Edowyth
United States183 Posts
We always hear "give it more time!" and "let the meta evolve" when there's a problem ... but with barely two months since the design patch and two weeks since the recent tweaks somehow people are already going to this extent to claim that Terran is somehow massively under-powered. Where's the proof? Terran has only one less than a completely even distribution in GSL and Innovation dominated his group as usual ... where's the win-rates or massive tournaments that show that Terran has problems? Even with the recent changes, in the IEM qualifiers Inno 2-0'd herO ... currently the best PvT player in the world. Really, what's the problem? | ||
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IArako
Germany195 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On January 07 2018 01:17 Edowyth wrote: Even with the recent changes, in the IEM qualifiers Inno 2-0'd herO ... currently the best PvT player in the world. Really, what's the problem? Some would say the fact herO's bullshit is considered the best PvT in the world is an indicator of balance in itself Still though, you have to look at pro games overall and not isolated series/players. Many of the best players have managed to still win over balance issues (Dark, ByuL, Maru etc) doesn't mean the game was any less broken back then | ||
Poopi
France12906 Posts
On January 07 2018 01:17 Edowyth wrote: Does Terran need saving? We always hear "give it more time!" and "let the meta evolve" when there's a problem ... but with barely two months since the design patch and two weeks since the recent tweaks somehow people are already going to this extent to claim that Terran is somehow massively under-powered. Where's the proof? Terran has only one less than a completely even distribution in GSL and Innovation dominated his group as usual ... where's the win-rates or massive tournaments that show that Terran has problems? Even with the recent changes, in the IEM qualifiers Inno 2-0'd herO ... currently the best PvT player in the world. Really, what's the problem? GSL distribution and balance are almost entirely independant, especially this GSL. Indeed, players had a loser bracket and could try to qualify two times, so they had like 4 lives before being not qualified. Add to that the fact that there are probably not much more than 32 pros in KR still at a pro level and you are almost guaranteed to see these 32 players qualify no matter what their race is. As for terrans having problems, it's relatively well known nowadays. | ||
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Edowyth
United States183 Posts
On January 07 2018 02:05 IArako wrote: Terran is not fine, just check aligulac or anything for a sec. 53% PvT seems to be fine ... If only 10 games had gone the other way in the last month, PvT in south korea would be exactly 50% ... On January 07 2018 02:16 Fango wrote: Still though, you have to look at pro games overall and not isolated series/players. Sure ... but I'm still not seeing the pro games that indicate a problem? On January 07 2018 02:45 Poopi wrote: As for terrans having problems, it's relatively well known nowadays. I don't care what you feel. I want evidence. Where's the problem. Where are the games that show that Terran struggles ... where are the tournaments where Terran is doing poorly? | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
So based on GSL alone, Terran is in the exact same spot as Protoss was last year.......before Libs and Mines got nerfed. | ||
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droppanda
Australia176 Posts
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Edowyth
United States183 Posts
On January 07 2018 05:04 pvsnp wrote: The GSL distribution you say? The current GSL has exactly the same number of Terrans as 2017 Season 1 had for Protoss, when they were all whining about 3.8 changes. Qualifier TvP winrate was 44% this year, while PvT winrate last year was 45%. So based on GSL alone, Terran is in the exact same spot as Protoss was last year.......before Libs and Mines got nerfed. And? I made no comparison between those periods and I'm not making a broad, reaching claim that Terran is perfectly balanced at this point ... I'm asking for evidence that it is not balanced. This article acts as if this is a forgone conclusion, but provides only anecdotes with no real statistical evidence of such a claim. The onus is upon the person making the claim to justify it, not on me. ----------------------- The GSL provides some evidence that what the article assumes isn't true. I'm not here to prove that Terran is perfectly balanced in PvT ... I just find it extremely dubious to claim imbalance without providing any evidence. The article itself mentions the qualifiers as anecdotal evidence, but there's counter-claims there as well ... why should Special be considered a favorite to enter the GSL when he's always been noted as a person who has significant performance differences on different days ... or when the players who did defeat him were Korean ... or when he won every PvT he played??? Throw on to that the distribution being well within expectation and I wonder just what the OP sees that I do not. Where's this supposed imbalance that makes the author so confident to provide no evidence for his claim? ----------------------- Does Terran need saving? I'm not convinced it does. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On January 07 2018 09:22 Edowyth wrote: And? I made no comparison between those periods and I'm not making a broad, reaching claim that Terran is perfectly balanced at this point ... I'm asking for evidence that it is not balanced. This article acts as if this is a forgone conclusion, but provides only anecdotes with no real statistical evidence of such a claim. The onus is upon the person making the claim to justify it, not on me. ----------------------- The GSL provides some evidence that what the article assumes isn't true. I'm not here to prove that Terran is perfectly balanced in PvT ... I just find it extremely dubious to claim imbalance without providing any evidence. The article itself mentions the qualifiers as anecdotal evidence, but there's counter-claims there as well ... why should Special be considered a favorite to enter the GSL when he's always been noted as a person who has significant performance differences on different days ... or when the players who did defeat him were Korean ... or when he won every PvT he played??? Throw on to that the distribution being well within expectation and I wonder just what the OP sees that I do not. Where's this supposed imbalance that makes the author so confident to provide no evidence for his claim? ----------------------- Does Terran need saving? I'm not convinced it does. Mizenhauer is most likely assuming that his readers are familiar with forums' consensus of the current meta–which is to say that TvP is Protoss-favored (and PvZ is Zerg-favored, but that's besides the point). Unless you've been hibernating the past few weeks, you should be aware of that. People cite all kind of sources, but a some searching for me yielded: IEM Katowice Korean Qualifier TvP: 44% IEM Pyeongchang Korean Qualifier TvP: 36% GSL Qualifier TvP: 44% This reddit post about top ladder winrates: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/7nzcl0/pvt_top_20_stats_eu_gm_ladder/ The following aligulac winrates for top Koreans after 12/18/2017 (most recent balance patch): TvP: Inno: 58% Maru: 42% TY: 33% aLive: 50% Gumiho: 52% PvT: Stats: 100% sOs: 80% Zest: 58% Classic: 72% herO: 70% Individually each of these pieces might be coincidence but when combined I would interpret them as saying the highest level of PvT is favors Protoss, and significantly at that. | ||
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Drfilip
Sweden590 Posts
On January 07 2018 09:46 pvsnp wrote: Mizenhauer is most likely assuming that his readers are familiar with forums' consensus of the current meta–which is to say that TvP is Protoss-favored (and PvZ is Zerg-favored, but that's besides the point). Unless you've been hibernating the past few weeks, you should be aware of that. People cite all kind of sources, but a some searching for me yielded: IEM Katowice Korean Qualifier TvP: 44% IEM Pyeongchang Korean Qualifier TvP: 36% GSL Qualifier TvP: 44% This reddit post about top ladder winrates: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/7nzcl0/pvt_top_20_stats_eu_gm_ladder/ The following aligulac winrates for top Koreans after 12/18/2017 (most recent balance patch): TvP: Inno: 58% Maru: 42% TY: 33% aLive: 50% Gumiho: 52% PvT: Stats: 100% sOs: 80% Zest: 58% Classic: 72% herO: 70% Individually each of these pieces might be coincidence but when combined I would interpret them as saying the highest level of PvT is favors Protoss, and significantly at that. I have not been inactive at reading here on tl forums and this is the first time I see 2 out of those 3 collections of numbers. Thank you for collecting them. People on this forum are not very good at citing sources but they are good at writing opinions. The most common source that I have witnessed is either 'game from a smallish tournament' or 'the stream of this one player', another common source is aligulac (followed by another person saying aligulac can't be used in that way). Another observation I have made is that the word 'numbers' is used as an argument without any actual numbers there, e.t. "just look at the numbers" and "the numbers are clear". | ||
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Poopi
France12906 Posts
On January 07 2018 09:22 Edowyth wrote: And? I made no comparison between those periods and I'm not making a broad, reaching claim that Terran is perfectly balanced at this point ... I'm asking for evidence that it is not balanced. This article acts as if this is a forgone conclusion, but provides only anecdotes with no real statistical evidence of such a claim. The onus is upon the person making the claim to justify it, not on me. ----------------------- The GSL provides some evidence that what the article assumes isn't true. I'm not here to prove that Terran is perfectly balanced in PvT ... I just find it extremely dubious to claim imbalance without providing any evidence. The article itself mentions the qualifiers as anecdotal evidence, but there's counter-claims there as well ... why should Special be considered a favorite to enter the GSL when he's always been noted as a person who has significant performance differences on different days ... or when the players who did defeat him were Korean ... or when he won every PvT he played??? Throw on to that the distribution being well within expectation and I wonder just what the OP sees that I do not. Where's this supposed imbalance that makes the author so confident to provide no evidence for his claim? ----------------------- Does Terran need saving? I'm not convinced it does. You realize that you can't statistically prove imbalance in a game like Starcraft, right? As for evidence, there you go: http://aligulac.com/players/63-TY/results/ TY losing to DnS (is this for real? t_t)... it's almost enough but the streak isn't over. He is at 8-19 since Blizzcon, and lost to mediocre (compared to his level at least) protoss such as Creator, DnS and Trap. | ||
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Vari
United States532 Posts
this is why I enjoy reading this website and following this game. it's why the finals are so much fun and I don't mind tastosis hyping their asses off. it's makes the games even more entertaining when you look at them with this grandiose lens. just enjoy it, don't get bogged down. | ||
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
Especially nice to see Inno playing bio. | ||
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Edowyth
United States183 Posts
On January 07 2018 09:46 pvsnp wrote: Mizenhauer is most likely assuming that his readers are familiar with forums' consensus of the current meta–which is to say that TvP is Protoss-favored (and PvZ is Zerg-favored, but that's besides the point). Unless you've been hibernating the past few weeks, you should be aware of that. People cite all kind of sources, but a some searching for me yielded: IEM Katowice Korean Qualifier TvP: 44% IEM Pyeongchang Korean Qualifier TvP: 36% GSL Qualifier TvP: 44% This reddit post about top ladder winrates: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/7nzcl0/pvt_top_20_stats_eu_gm_ladder/ The following aligulac winrates for top Koreans after 12/18/2017 (most recent balance patch): TvP: Inno: 58% Maru: 42% TY: 33% aLive: 50% Gumiho: 52% PvT: Stats: 100% sOs: 80% Zest: 58% Classic: 72% herO: 70% Individually each of these pieces might be coincidence but when combined I would interpret them as saying the highest level of PvT is favors Protoss, and significantly at that. Not surprisingly, I've been away for the holidays the last few weeks ... these numbers are things I haven't seen. Thanks for providing them. Do you have any idea why Terran is struggling in the match-up? Are there particular builds that are too strong? Is Terran just too far behind from trying to defend with too little early-game power? | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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egrimm
Poland1199 Posts
On January 07 2018 22:59 Edowyth wrote: Not surprisingly, I've been away for the holidays the last few weeks ... these numbers are things I haven't seen. Thanks for providing them. Do you have any idea why Terran is struggling in the match-up? Are there particular builds that are too strong? Is Terran just too far behind from trying to defend with too little early-game power? Watching interview with TY and according to my own experiences during laddering it seems like main problem is with standard blink pressure build into fast 3rd and double forge. In current LotV iteration blink openers are mostly safe if you know what you are doing vs any Terran pressure/harass and even all-ins ( I tend to die vs cyclone all-ins from time to time but that's my mistake). Then you get 9 stalkers and have really strong pressure which also allows for taking 3rd. To this point it is quite similar to how Hots PvT did look like. However nowadays you just add 2 forges and charge and can withstand Terran attacks without collosus as you have stronger sniping on stalkers stronger charge on zelots and probably even finished 1/1 which usually wrecks Terran pushes. So this build is not only really strong by itself it also is really straight forward allows for safe transition to late game AOE of your choosing but also you may try to finish game right away with just 1/1 gateway army after beating Terran push. On top of that there is no (yet?) hard counter to this build nor all-in neither eco cheese. So there you go. | ||
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Athenau
570 Posts
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