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yht9657
1810 Posts
On December 19 2017 04:44 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Its more obvious that Protoss as the least represented race on ladder is the least fun race to play. 'fun' is obviously a subjective standard, some people enjoy dirty cheese while some enjoy standard macro, it all comes down to the attitude of individual player. Saying a race is not fun to play doesn't make much sense. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On December 19 2017 13:07 Myrddraal wrote: I didn't criticise your reading comprehension, I criticised your strawmaning of what you read, now your reading comprehension is failing too. Do you think that strawmans are created out of a lack of comprehension? Assume I understand exactly what was written, why would I create such a strawman if I understood the article? | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On December 19 2017 13:10 bo1b wrote: Do you think that strawmans are created out of a lack of comprehension? Assume I understand exactly what was written, why would I create such a strawman if I understood the article? Strawmen are almost always created to be torn apart, just fyi, I think that was his point. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
Does that indicate comprehension or not? | ||
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Myrddraal
Australia937 Posts
On December 19 2017 13:10 bo1b wrote: Do you think that strawmans are created out of a lack of comprehension? Assume I understand exactly what was written, why would I create such a strawman if I understood the article? Strawmen can be created from lack of comprehension, but more often, they are used out of bias or laziness in order to create an easier argument to argue against and make your point seem stronger than it is. I don't know why you would create such a strawman, you seem to be trying to reduce Protoss cleverness to just gimmicky abuse, and you claim to understand both the point in criticising races and in clever decisions which apparently the writer has "entirely missed". I don't know, whatever your point was supposed to be I'm not convinced. On December 19 2017 13:24 bo1b wrote: "Reread these paragraphs and see how they sound nothing like what you are talking about" Does that indicate comprehension or not? The point is to highlight the difference, you may have comprehended when you read them but are too blinded by your bias or how "offensive" the article was to make a coherent counter argument. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2573 Posts
Min Chul is the most beloved and best sc2 progamer of all time, and played protoss. If you disagree, that is because you like being wrong. Your move. | ||
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Flamerz
12 Posts
On December 18 2017 23:22 Scarlett` wrote: delete protoss. You try so hard to be Korean that you even type like your foreign. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On December 19 2017 15:51 Fleetfeet wrote: Counterpoint : Min Chul is the most beloved and best sc2 progamer of all time, and played protoss. If you disagree, that is because you like being wrong. Your move. To whom are you speaking? | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2573 Posts
Generally towards the miasma of butthurt and salt that occupies this thread. OP was an enjoyable read that did not actually make any compelling (new) points but did not need to. People are having stupid arguments about stupid things because the internet. Rather than participate in stupid discussions, declare MC > all. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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USA StarCraft
1 Post
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/TXxQbyh.gif) Toss the Salad of my Betty White, and count the amount of Top GMs there is using Protoss, now **unzips pants** get offended by this! User was warned for this post | ||
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stilt
France2750 Posts
Seeing those "magnificent" timing attacks is quite frustrating, this gameplay is only about tricks, gimmicks, timings, tactical depth of zvt or tvt is absent with any mu on pro game and the late game is so freaking dull but it is nowhere near the feeling of losing to toss, blink stalker, colossus, skytoss, phoenix, there is no pleasure to see or play against this. I basically stopped the game for 1 years because of this race, I do no more than 10 games per month since then and it is quite obvious that a very large chunk of players stopped or did not even play the game because of this design. If only there was a option to not play against a particular race on ladder... The boycot could be massive. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2573 Posts
On December 19 2017 17:29 bo1b wrote: That's generally the modus operandi of protoss apologists, enter a thread declare all arguments you disagree with stupid, and then say something objectively false - Drg > all. I'm a zerg player, and have a screenshot somewhere of my zvp winrate being ~25% while my zvz and vt are 60%. I also got tempbanned on my previous account for balance whining about toss. I also openly hate toss. And it is the entire argument that is stupid, not any particular part of it. I can't disagree with an entire argument taking place. Here's a random game of MC beating DRG, just because it adds credibility to my argument. | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
losing never feels good, but I think for low level players losing to strategies and micro is more frustrating than losing to being outmacroed. In this way, they hate protoss. It's you're fault and only you're fault if you can't learn the game, the race, and the ins and outs of it. For example I was frustrated with widow mine drops until I learned the timing at which they could arrive (4:30 or whatever it's going to be earlier now) and the strategy no longer was frustrating to lose to. Yet low level zerg players fail to scout with their overlords to see 8 gates on 2 bases super fast ect. ect. ect. get good or whine about the race as a whole I guess is still their answer. On December 19 2017 22:41 stilt wrote: Seeing those "magnificent" timing attacks is quite frustrating, this gameplay is only about tricks, gimmicks, timings strategy isn't a gimmick, nor is it a trick. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On December 20 2017 13:56 youngjiddle wrote: wow, just wow, the protoss hate as a whole still exists and not only the article but the comments in this thread is great proof. really triggered some people to come out and admit it. losing never feels good, but I think for low level players losing to strategies and micro is more frustrating than losing to being outmacroed. In this way, they hate protoss. It's you're fault and only you're fault if you can't learn the game, the race, and the ins and outs of it. For example I was frustrated with widow mine drops until I learned the timing at which they could arrive (4:30 or whatever it's going to be earlier now) and the strategy no longer was frustrating to lose to. Yet low level zerg players fail to scout with their overlords to see 8 gates on 2 bases super fast ect. ect. ect. get good or whine about the race as a whole I guess is still their answer. strategy isn't a gimmick, nor is it a trick. You're missing the point. Mizenhauer's article isn't talking about how people losing to Protoss, or hatred of Protoss in general. It's talking about how the fans dislike watching Protoss play, specifically how they dislike watching professionals win with Protoss. How many times has one of those builds left the audience feeling like THEY were the ones who had been mugged? This line is obviously not referring to ladder losses, but rather community disgust towards Protoss bullshit at the highest levels of competitive SC2. Same goes for the rest of the article. You're just attacking a strawman of "lol everyone who disagrees is a noob and needs to get good," and come off as a Protoss apologist (deliberately or not I will not speculate). Now it's certainly possible, even probable, that the hostile comments and such are from people who hate Protoss as a result of losing on ladder........but that's an unproven (and unprovable) assumption. Characterizing them all as such without a shred of proof is the very definition of a strawman. And I believe the popular term for Protoss "strategy" would be "bullshit." Why that term is popular at all is the real question here. | ||
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CharAznable2
26 Posts
You never see someone saying to a terran: when behind, ghost academy or banshee Or to a zerg: when behind, burrowed infestor or roach... But protoss? When behind, Dark shrine. Don`t know how many times it saved protoss players life. The only unit I don`t rage is the zealot, because he is like a cool warrior. Every other protoss unit almost gave me heart attack of stress sometime between those 7 years of sc2, chrono boost and warp in mechanic, photon overcharge, MSC and proxy pylon shenanigans (I`m looking at you, cliff of shakuras plateau) included. | ||
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Snarosc
France66 Posts
On December 20 2017 16:27 CharAznable2 wrote: Remember that one time that Scarlett won against DRG using protoss? Or that one time she put so many stasis ward on the map that I thought sc2 would crash, because the bs level was so high. You never see someone saying to a terran: when behind, ghost academy or banshee Or to a zerg: when behind, burrowed infestor or roach... But protoss? When behind, Dark shrine. Don`t know how many times it saved protoss players life. The only unit I don`t rage is the zealot, because he is like a cool warrior. Every other protoss unit almost gave me heart attack of stress sometime between those 7 years of sc2, chrono boost and warp in mechanic, photon overcharge, MSC and proxy pylon shenanigans (I`m looking at you, cliff of shakuras plateau) included. Are you seriously blaming Protoss for having a way of coming back from behind in a lost game ? Terrans have literally been winning lost games since forever with mules. This is the worst thing about Protoss you could have complained about, congratz ! | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1886 Posts
On December 20 2017 14:55 pvsnp wrote: You're missing the point. Mizenhauer's article isn't talking about how people losing to Protoss, or hatred of Protoss in general. It's talking about how the fans dislike watching Protoss play, specifically how they dislike watching professionals win with Protoss. This line is obviously not referring to ladder losses, but rather community disgust towards Protoss bullshit at the highest levels of competitive SC2. Same goes for the rest of the article. You're just attacking a strawman of "lol everyone who disagrees is a noob and needs to get good," and come off as a Protoss apologist (deliberately or not I will not speculate). Now it's certainly possible, even probable, that the hostile comments and such are from people who hate Protoss as a result of losing on ladder........but that's an unproven (and unprovable) assumption. Characterizing them all as such without a shred of proof is the very definition of a strawman. And I believe the popular term for Protoss "strategy" would be "bullshit." Why that term is popular at all is the real question here. This won't turn into a discussion because I'm not interested in having one, but I don't exactly appreciate it when someone tells another person what my article is about when they are just plain wrong. The point of this article was to point out that the lack of understanding as to how playing Protoss brings a unique set of challenges that make the race difficult and rewarding to play as well as how the traits inherent to Protoss make the race interesting to watch at a professional level. The reason I illustrated this with professional games is because it created a far better article then me lecturing readers while referencing "that one ladder game I played where the Protoss..." This way everyone can relate to the examples and remember how they felt when watching these games/moments and hopefully look at them in a different light having read the article. I dislike skytoss and blink/immortal/high templar from the end of HotS as much as anyone, but the tldr of the article is that it's a mixed bag and it's worth it to take the good with the bad because Protoss isn't as bad as we all think. | ||
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
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