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PROTOSSED, or how we gave up on understanding - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
159 CommentsPost a Reply
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Durnuu
Profile Joined September 2013
13320 Posts
December 18 2017 18:35 GMT
#61
On December 19 2017 03:34 captainwaffles wrote:
Yes, maybe there's some bullshit inherent to Protoss.


There, thats it. The article can be reduced to that one sentence.

You completely missed the point, congratz
BUNNYYYYYYYYY https://i.imgur.com/BiCF577.png
franzji
Profile Joined September 2013
United States581 Posts
December 18 2017 18:38 GMT
#62
On December 19 2017 03:35 Durnuu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2017 03:34 captainwaffles wrote:
Yes, maybe there's some bullshit inherent to Protoss.


There, thats it. The article can be reduced to that one sentence.

You completely missed the point, congratz


I think he chose to ignore the point, which in fact strengthens the point of what the articles is about, which is very funny.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10696 Posts
December 18 2017 18:39 GMT
#63
1a2a3a


This was allways the protoss spirit
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-18 18:46:51
December 18 2017 18:40 GMT
#64
On December 19 2017 03:35 Durnuu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2017 03:34 captainwaffles wrote:
Yes, maybe there's some bullshit inherent to Protoss.


There, thats it. The article can be reduced to that one sentence.

You completely missed the point, congratz

Did he really though? Mizenhauer's article–while well-written–doesn't bring anything groundbreaking to the table. He is just defending Protoss, and while he does a pretty good job of it, I doubt that very many people will be convinced if for no other reason than the narrative of Protoss bullshit is deeply entrenched after years of attention.

Protoss does have some inherent bullshit (which is not to say that T/Z don't), and this article doesn't change that.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10696 Posts
December 18 2017 18:45 GMT
#65
And actually the issue is simple.

The guy that tought having warpgate as standard production should have been fired and locked away in an austrian basement since wol beta.
feardragon
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States972 Posts
December 18 2017 18:47 GMT
#66
I really enjoyed this article. I actually almost stopped reading it after the first 4-5 paragraphs because I was getting annoyed at the tone but I'm glad I stuck through and realized it was just proving that exact point. Cards on the table, I'm a protoss player, but I definitely thought it did a nice job of delivering its point.
Ok Starcraft 2 Commentator
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-18 18:49:34
December 18 2017 18:48 GMT
#67
On December 19 2017 03:45 Velr wrote:
And actually the issue is simple.

The guy that tought having warpgate as standard production should have been fired and locked away in an austrian basement since wol beta.

Protoss has a great long list of bullshit gimmicks, but warpgate is the original sin.

So long as it remains in the game, Protoss will never be able to reach a stable equilibrium. Number tweaking can bring about a temporary and tenuous balance, but nothing more.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Aveng3r
Profile Joined February 2012
United States2411 Posts
December 18 2017 18:50 GMT
#68
On December 19 2017 03:33 JackONeill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2017 03:30 Aveng3r wrote:
On December 19 2017 03:25 JackONeill wrote:
On December 19 2017 02:59 Tuczniak wrote:
I was disappointed by the quality of the article. It's a very interesting subject, but it could have been written better. I was looking forward for good points and arguments with which I might agree or disagree, but instead I was left wondering what was the point of each paragraph, and which sentence was a joke and which wasn't.



My thoughts exactly.

Instead of trying to analyse why do people have this feeling when watching protoss play, the point of this bleak article is that "Yes, maybe there's some bullshit inherent to Protoss. But on the whole, Protoss isn't as bad as we make it out to be." (last sentence of said article).

Well alright but that's not why people are so annoyed or amazed at protoss play. For instance, one matter that could have been a serious topic is how people used, back in WOL, to be amazed by pro players warp prism control, and how the 6 range prism completely shattered that.

Anyway, disappointed by an article base on an interesting subject, but brings, in the end, absolutely nothing to the table.

That's a really great review you just wrote, what have you contributed recently?


Soooo I'm not "allowed" to dislike the new star wars movie because i'm not a film maker?

Alright buddy, seems like a fair point.

Well it was your "This brings nothing to the table" bit at the very end that rubbed me the wrong way

It most certainly does, it brings a good starcraft II article to the table.

Your welcome to agree or disagree with it, but "this brings nothing to the table" is at best hypocritical and at worst just a dick comment to make
I carve marble busts of assassinated world leaders - PM for a quote
Sundr
Profile Joined November 2017
34 Posts
December 18 2017 19:24 GMT
#69
Good read, but it's not entirely clear what this article's main idea is exactly? That there are lots of prejudices and stereotypes towards Protoss? Sure, but there are not less towards other races. Most common of Terran you can hear from literally everywhere are things like "newb race" or "easy micro". For Zerg most popular is "mindless zerg rush", "no macro" which made it onto pretty much every other RTS. When player goes for specific unit spam, he's branded as "zerg rusher" immediately. It's pretty surprising to see that this article points out Toss as some sort of cheese kings, while I really doubt other two races have less cheese than Protoss. I've seen plenty from all the races by now I think. And seriously, when someone goes for cheese strat in this game, it's pretty much always some brutal all-in or trade off which if you fail, and there's no way back. So when player is losing against cheese, it's not his opponent to blame, there's always a chance to scout and prepare accordingly. When I lose to these kinds of strats, I feel myself like an idiot every single time.

Really hate those kinds of stereotypes thrown around about races. Not any kind of pro here, just average player. Fell in love with Protoss from the first time I've seen them in original SC many-many years ago. Each and every race in this game requires very specific mindset and approach to play from times immemorial. Playing as Toss is very intuitional and satisfying for me. It's micro intensive, sure, but Terran or Zerg really doesn't feel less micro intensive tbh, and even if it is, personally I can't rewire my mind to play Terran or Zerg properly, I just don't understand how to, and every single interaction feels "wrong", "inefficient", "blunt", while playing main race feels like harmonious melody. There are some players who mastered 2 races or randoms by nature, and that's phenomenal, but I'm pretty sure overwhelming majority develops affinity which is hard to kick and transfer. So branding any race with inappropriate cliches at very least cannot be taken seriously.
TypeOfT
Profile Joined July 2015
14 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-18 19:43:32
December 18 2017 19:36 GMT
#70
Toss is in the best place now and will pretty much be inline when Chrono is nerfed. The main hate against toss originates from 4gate/ cannon cheese in WOL.

I don't play toss, don't hate them. Have a strong dislike for the type of players that play them. Toss is the best race too cheese with.... thanks for the good read!
CrayonPopChoa
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Canada761 Posts
December 18 2017 19:44 GMT
#71
On December 19 2017 01:46 yht9657 wrote:
Nothing surprising, since all people complain about other races being OP and their race being weak, it's obvious Protoss as the least represented race on ladder is the most OP race.


Its more obvious that Protoss as the least represented race on ladder is the least fun race to play.
BW4LIFE
JackONeill
Profile Joined September 2013
861 Posts
December 18 2017 19:46 GMT
#72
On December 19 2017 03:50 Aveng3r wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2017 03:33 JackONeill wrote:
On December 19 2017 03:30 Aveng3r wrote:
On December 19 2017 03:25 JackONeill wrote:
On December 19 2017 02:59 Tuczniak wrote:
I was disappointed by the quality of the article. It's a very interesting subject, but it could have been written better. I was looking forward for good points and arguments with which I might agree or disagree, but instead I was left wondering what was the point of each paragraph, and which sentence was a joke and which wasn't.



My thoughts exactly.

Instead of trying to analyse why do people have this feeling when watching protoss play, the point of this bleak article is that "Yes, maybe there's some bullshit inherent to Protoss. But on the whole, Protoss isn't as bad as we make it out to be." (last sentence of said article).

Well alright but that's not why people are so annoyed or amazed at protoss play. For instance, one matter that could have been a serious topic is how people used, back in WOL, to be amazed by pro players warp prism control, and how the 6 range prism completely shattered that.

Anyway, disappointed by an article base on an interesting subject, but brings, in the end, absolutely nothing to the table.

That's a really great review you just wrote, what have you contributed recently?


Soooo I'm not "allowed" to dislike the new star wars movie because i'm not a film maker?

Alright buddy, seems like a fair point.

Well it was your "This brings nothing to the table" bit at the very end that rubbed me the wrong way

It most certainly does, it brings a good starcraft II article to the table.

Your welcome to agree or disagree with it, but "this brings nothing to the table" is at best hypocritical and at worst just a dick comment to make


This article has a great subject, but doesn't answer it at all, and doesn't bring much to the table overall ; that's my opinion.
If you don't agree with it, present some legitimate counterpoints other than "you're a dick/hypocrite for saying that" or "it rubbed me the wrong way" : but if you're particularly anal about this for no real reason, please don't try to justify it fraudulently.
Tyrhanius
Profile Joined April 2011
France947 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-18 19:53:16
December 18 2017 19:52 GMT
#73
For me, Protoss is the best race of this game, the most complete, and the most competitive.

You can ever cheese, play greedy, play safe, or wait for the long lategame where you can't hardly lose.

Zerg is kind a bad at cheesing, and need to nearly always go for the macro game, even after a cheese/pressure.

Terran is usually on a timer and needs to be agressive and finish the game as fast as he can at all cost.

Protoss, can play all the kind of game he wants : agressive, defensive, reactive and on a tournament where you need to surprise the other and be unpredictible, protoss is ahead at this game.

Of course, it's not invincible, and when you play the mind game you can fail very hard.

Zerg is probably the deadliest enemy of protoss because he can adapt to all the protoss strategy if he knows it's coming, then PvZ is more about poker than micro/mecanism.
Aveng3r
Profile Joined February 2012
United States2411 Posts
December 18 2017 20:00 GMT
#74
On December 19 2017 04:46 JackONeill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2017 03:50 Aveng3r wrote:
On December 19 2017 03:33 JackONeill wrote:
On December 19 2017 03:30 Aveng3r wrote:
On December 19 2017 03:25 JackONeill wrote:
On December 19 2017 02:59 Tuczniak wrote:
I was disappointed by the quality of the article. It's a very interesting subject, but it could have been written better. I was looking forward for good points and arguments with which I might agree or disagree, but instead I was left wondering what was the point of each paragraph, and which sentence was a joke and which wasn't.



My thoughts exactly.

Instead of trying to analyse why do people have this feeling when watching protoss play, the point of this bleak article is that "Yes, maybe there's some bullshit inherent to Protoss. But on the whole, Protoss isn't as bad as we make it out to be." (last sentence of said article).

Well alright but that's not why people are so annoyed or amazed at protoss play. For instance, one matter that could have been a serious topic is how people used, back in WOL, to be amazed by pro players warp prism control, and how the 6 range prism completely shattered that.

Anyway, disappointed by an article base on an interesting subject, but brings, in the end, absolutely nothing to the table.

That's a really great review you just wrote, what have you contributed recently?


Soooo I'm not "allowed" to dislike the new star wars movie because i'm not a film maker?

Alright buddy, seems like a fair point.

Well it was your "This brings nothing to the table" bit at the very end that rubbed me the wrong way

It most certainly does, it brings a good starcraft II article to the table.

Your welcome to agree or disagree with it, but "this brings nothing to the table" is at best hypocritical and at worst just a dick comment to make


This article has a great subject, but doesn't answer it at all, and doesn't bring much to the table overall ; that's my opinion.
If you don't agree with it, present some legitimate counterpoints other than "you're a dick/hypocrite for saying that" or "it rubbed me the wrong way" : but if you're particularly anal about this for no real reason, please don't try to justify it fraudulently.

Oh it has a great subject! that's good, glad you found it to be great!

By the way my counterpoint for why it brings something to the table is in my previous post, feel free to re-read
I carve marble busts of assassinated world leaders - PM for a quote
ThunderJunk
Profile Joined December 2015
United States677 Posts
December 18 2017 20:01 GMT
#75
I don't see why a parade push, an instant remax, and a deathball should be considered on different footings.All 3 races have OP elements.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
Muffloe
Profile Joined December 2012
Sweden6061 Posts
December 18 2017 20:07 GMT
#76
When I play toss myself I kinda just want to deathball, but I don't see that at all in progamers, they all have such unique styles and bring alot of flair to the race. And who really cares what happens on the ladder :p
Heartland
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Sweden24580 Posts
December 18 2017 20:14 GMT
#77
Well said
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-18 20:19:06
December 18 2017 20:18 GMT
#78
There's so much false equivalency here, but let me just point out the obvious one that got me to react. Hellions and Adepts.

Hellions have been nerfed repeatedly since WoL. Queens have been buffed REPEATEDLY since WoL. Adepts were overpowered and deserved to be nerfed in LoTV.

You want to talk about how there's no difference between Adepts and Hellions, then let's talk about it shall we?

Hellions cannot function as a massable army unit, they are a harassment specialist only. When HoTS came out they became a unit that could also function as a damage sponge and little else.

Adepts are nimble, standard combat units that also function terrifically as a harassment unit. Hellions have nothing gimmicky in their design, they are fast, fragile, and deal minsicule damage to anything that isn't labeled "Light". Adepts are beefy, close range damage dealers that can use invulnerable hallucinations in order to move to another area or not to, a single adept can be a simultaneous threat to two locations, a single hellion cannot.

And then there's the elephant in the room. Adepts can be warped in, across the map in huge numbers. Hellions can't.

So you'll forgive me, if I call shenanigans on your implication that Adepts have been nerfed just because people hate Protoss for irrational reasons. No. Adepts have been nerfed repeatedly because they are a gimmicky unit design that was too strong for a very long time. Maybe now that they are in their current iteration people won't hate them as much, much the same way that everyone hated Blue Flame Hellions or Helbat drops for a long while before those strats got rightfully nerfed as well.

But no, I guess it's just that the community has an irrational totally unjustified reason to hate Protoss design elements. I'm sure that's a better explanation.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Deleuze
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United Kingdom2102 Posts
December 18 2017 20:34 GMT
#79
Really enjoyed this article, very well written. Glad TL has good writers on the team.

Also fun comments.
“An image of thought called philosophy has been formed historically and it effectively stops people from thinking.” ― Gilles Deleuze, Dialogues II
Argonauta
Profile Joined July 2016
Spain4906 Posts
December 18 2017 20:56 GMT
#80
And the pic is fucking cool
Rogue | Maru | Scarlett | Trap
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