EPTOn December 19 2017 02:15 Psychobabas wrote:
TvP is nothing compared to late game TvZ
TvP is nothing compared to late game TvZ
Amen.
PROTOSSED, or how we gave up on understanding - Page 5
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leublix
493 Posts
Amen. | ||
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iMrising
United States1099 Posts
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Xamo
Spain886 Posts
On December 18 2017 23:22 Scarlett` wrote: delete protoss. Evolve or die. This is Starcraft. | ||
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MoonyD
Australia191 Posts
Is the race 'gimmicky'? Sure. But that's kind of the identity of Protoss to 'outsmart' and 'trick' your opponent. Because in a straight-up macro-fest, it's hard to beat Terran with all its mules and Zerg with their macro mechanics to drone up to 60 workers. Imagine if it was really just Terran and Zerg. It'd be very much so a scissors/paper/rock kind of situation with builds. Having Protoss in the mix with its unpredictable nature adds a twist to the otherwise monotonous game play. | ||
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VengefulTree
Canada637 Posts
Good read nonetheless. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
Protoss was a mistake. On a second read through I find this article even more offensive as it entirely misses the point behind the criticism of sc2 races. The fundamental building blocks of the game have been replaced by "unique identities" behind each race, which is all well and good but we're playing an rts not a moba - cool down based macro production should not exist in the game, nor should borderline 0 risk for enourmous reward abilities, which end up becoming the expected standard - such as adepts, or queen injects, or dropping 10 mules at once. Protoss gets so much hate because it's the biggest offender, and only so much of it can be explained away by being "wily" or clever - of which it is not more clever necessarily to take advantage of the obvious implications behind certain skills. An army of adepts strolling up to a base early game and becoming invulnerable while it travels to another base (maybe, who knows these things right?) places the defender at an impossible decision - go and defend that base or this one. Lauding this sort of decision making as clever entirely misses the point behind actual clever decisions, such as the entire drg vs innovation series, or pretty much everything life ever did, or mvp, or stephano. Which is ironically somewhat harsh on protoss, as it leaves the viewer wondering if what they saw was genuine cleverness, or just another protoss player reaching into the bag of bullshit and pulling out yet another gimmicky build. My condolences to rain, who really managed games exceptionally and will never receive the praise he deserves. Protoss is the biggest pimple on a face that already looks like the moon. | ||
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AxiomBlurr
786 Posts
1) Pylons are outright terrible (they die = your shit does not work). 2) Army splitting is the worst for Protoss out of the races. One strong Protoss army divided by two = two shit armies, each less powerful than half the original army. 3) Protoss relies on heavy units (more so than the other races) Immortals, colos, disruptors etc... that if sniped can crumble the Protoss army. 4) Army composition is the most important for Protoss. Terran bio scales efficiently into late game, Zerg can Hydra+ Zergling into late game but P must very carefully build select compositions of late game armies of at least 6-7 unit types. 5) Expanding for P is the most difficult of the races: Terran can build and float + planet, Zerg hatch is only 300 mins and easy to defend because of creep + Z unit speed. P must warp in Nexus, pylons, cannons and or batteries for a single expo most times (600-700 mins of easily snipeable buildings). This also relates to the P behind in macro issue mentioned in the article. 6) Unit abilities are extremely strong for Protoss but the precision with which they must be used to gain maximum efficacy has a gradient. Sure a good P player can hit some decent storms, forcefields, blink micro, efficient oracle tags etc but the small margin between their ability usage/ positioning and the Protoss god players represents a massive difference in damage dealt etc... This is not easily appreciated and the article by Mizen does well to elaborate this point. 7) Workers: SCVs repair shit, Drones can morph into structures to protect themselves and regen complete health, Probes pop like popcorn and have a shitty shield, true they can warp in buildings and go back to work, but of the workers they are indisputably the worst. There are more but this is enough to highlight the point. P is strong with a great arsenal of builds, but all of them have great weaknesses. | ||
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Sundr
34 Posts
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moloko
Austria7 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On December 19 2017 08:35 AxiomBlurr wrote: People often forget about the weaknesses of Protoss: 1) Pylons are outright terrible (they die = your shit does not work). 2) Army splitting is the worst for Protoss out of the races. One strong Protoss army divided by two = two shit armies, each less powerful than half the original army. 3) Protoss relies on heavy units (more so than the other races) Immortals, colos, disruptors etc... that if sniped can crumble the Protoss army. 4) Army composition is the most important for Protoss. Terran bio scales efficiently into late game, Zerg can Hydra+ Zergling into late game but P must very carefully build select compositions of late game armies of at least 6-7 unit types. 5) Expanding for P is the most difficult of the races: Terran can build and float + planet, Zerg hatch is only 300 mins and easy to defend because of creep + Z unit speed. P must warp in Nexus, pylons, cannons and or batteries for a single expo most times (600-700 mins of easily snipeable buildings). This also relates to the P behind in macro issue mentioned in the article. 6) Unit abilities are extremely strong for Protoss but the precision with which they must be used to gain maximum efficacy has a gradient. Sure a good P player can hit some decent storms, forcefields, blink micro, efficient oracle tags etc but the small margin between their ability usage/ positioning and the Protoss god players represents a massive difference in damage dealt etc... This is not easily appreciated and the article by Mizen does well to elaborate this point. 7) Workers: SCVs repair shit, Drones can morph into structures to protect themselves and regen complete health, Probes pop like popcorn and have a shitty shield, true they can warp in buildings and go back to work, but of the workers they are indisputably the worst. There are more but this is enough to highlight the point. P is strong with a great arsenal of builds, but all of them have great weaknesses. Protosses weaknesses and strengths keep the race like a yoyo, it's either winning or being dumped on. | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
On December 19 2017 03:38 youngjiddle wrote: I think he chose to ignore the point, which in fact strengthens the point of what the articles is about, which is very funny. This^ All races have inherent bullshit, this whole article seems to me, a response to the proxy gate memes that have been making us all laugh on reddit. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2656 Posts
At the end it seems whiny, its just a "you whine we whine now" except the person writing this is supposed to be informed and level headed. The protoss meme has infiltrated its way into the collective and its not going to go away, but centring the attention into the 12 year olds that give importance to stuff like that serves no purpose at all. At the end you give your best line, a contradicting line here: "How many times has one of those builds left the audience feeling like THEY were the ones who had been mugged?" Protoss is a complex and hard race to play, but starcraft, a game more designed for watching than for playing, don't showcase that very well. Sometimes very simple things look amazing and others really intricate actions seems easy and effortless. THAT is the crux of protoss design, wheter you like it or not, and it is Blizzard fault, even if not for designing protoss in the way they did, for designing the game the way they did. | ||
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Azylis
Germany131 Posts
On December 19 2017 00:51 FilthyRake wrote: great article - as a Protoss player myself, I really enjoyed the read. It made me feel a bit better, given all the hate being spewed towards us lately. I got the same feeling. Great read, and some honey on the wound that is all the hate coming down on the Protoss players. Nice job, Mizenhauer! | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On December 19 2017 09:36 Azylis wrote: I got the same feeling. Great read, and some honey on the wound that is all the hate coming down on the Protoss players. Nice job, Mizenhauer! Personally, I would gladly trade victory for hate, but maybe that's just me...... Whining about whining always struck me as supremely petty–at least whining itself usually has some (small) kernel of a legitimate justification buried at the heart, when the meta is actually imbalanced. Whining about whining is just bitching for the sake of it. Expecting people not to whine about losing in an imbalanced meta is just trying to have your cake and eat it too. | ||
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LuLuneth
30 Posts
On December 19 2017 10:13 pvsnp wrote: Personally, I would gladly trade victory for hate, but maybe that's just me...... Whining about whining always struck me as supremely petty–at least whining itself usually has some (small) kernel of a legitimate justification buried at the heart, when the meta is actually imbalanced. Whining about whining is just bitching for the sake of it. Expecting people not to whine about losing in an imbalanced meta is just trying to have your cake and eat it too. People whine about protoss regardless of the meta tho | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On December 19 2017 10:34 LuLuneth wrote: People whine about protoss regardless of the meta tho Oh of course people always whine about Protoss. And Terran and Zerg and the sky being blue. But I don't think it's all that difficult to ignore (baseless) whine when it's mostly restricted to twitch chat and the occasional bm opponent. It's when there's actual imbalance that reddit posts spring up like weeds, aligulac winrates become trending topics, the community updates get hundreds of replies, etc, etc. The increase in frequency/intensity of whining is pretty significant. Adept/Phoenix, I think, would be the best example in recent memory, the forums were completely on fire. Yes there was an incredible amount of whine, but an underlying issue did exist. Mass Oracle is another example. | ||
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Topin
Peru10109 Posts
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Myrddraal
Australia937 Posts
On December 19 2017 07:59 bo1b wrote: An article named after a porn site, in defense of the worst, most egregious design flaw in sc2. Protoss was a mistake. On a second read through I find this article even more offensive as it entirely misses the point behind the criticism of sc2 races. The fundamental building blocks of the game have been replaced by "unique identities" behind each race, which is all well and good but we're playing an rts not a moba - cool down based macro production should not exist in the game, nor should borderline 0 risk for enourmous reward abilities, which end up becoming the expected standard - such as adepts, or queen injects, or dropping 10 mules at once. Protoss gets so much hate because it's the biggest offender, and only so much of it can be explained away by being "wily" or clever - of which it is not more clever necessarily to take advantage of the obvious implications behind certain skills. An army of adepts strolling up to a base early game and becoming invulnerable while it travels to another base (maybe, who knows these things right?) places the defender at an impossible decision - go and defend that base or this one. Lauding this sort of decision making as clever entirely misses the point behind actual clever decisions, such as the entire drg vs innovation series, or pretty much everything life ever did, or mvp, or stephano. Which is ironically somewhat harsh on protoss, as it leaves the viewer wondering if what they saw was genuine cleverness, or just another protoss player reaching into the bag of bullshit and pulling out yet another gimmicky build. My condolences to rain, who really managed games exceptionally and will never receive the praise he deserves. Protoss is the biggest pimple on a face that already looks like the moon. Wow you really tore apart that strawman, nice job! Reread these paragraphs and see how they sound nothing like what you are talking about. Nobody thinks that simply shading from one base to another is an example of clever play. "But we’re not playing against DRG and Mvp, or more recently, soO and TY. When faced with a truly elite opponent, one can’t simply ride Protoss imbalance to victory. It takes precise execution to catch an opponent unaware. It takes the type of adepts splits that Neeb used to conquer Rogue to eke out advantages in skirmishes. It takes herO’s trademark warp-prism shenanigans to displace the defense. Fights may look one-sided for Protoss players, but that’s because they have mastered precise micro and constant analysis of the situation. Protoss isn’t just about holding the “z” key down and painting some zealots on the map—it’s about knowing where to deploy which units for maximum efficiency. Sure, ramming as many adepts as you can down the opponent’s front door can be effective, even in a GSL final, but it’s not always so simple. Think all the way back to the summer of 2016 when Classic decided to kill the rocks on Apotheosis with dark templars, shutting out Dark’s army, giving his adepts free reign over Dark’s main and natural. By the time he cleaned it up, his fourth bases was under siege. Even the most zealous hater would have to admit Classic was more wily than despicable." | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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Myrddraal
Australia937 Posts
On December 19 2017 12:53 bo1b wrote: Before criticizing someones reading comprehension, you might want to take a good look at your own. I didn't criticise your reading comprehension, I criticised your strawmaning of what you read, now your reading comprehension is failing too. | ||
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